FairUmbrella wrote: »BohnT2
False and truth are pretty debatable terms to use especially when its about personal opinions regarding a strong fan favorite skill.
That tend raise feelings in those that like it creating strong sense of being always right due their history with it and thus making automatically others being wrong whom challenge old status quo. Its been seen in history many times as well. Challenger will always get beaten down by those who fancy themselves as being on the “right side” or knowing better. Knowledge is never static phenomena and always reflects spirit of its specific era but as its known time will tell how things will move on or if they stay the same.
Disagreeing is never disrespectful. Having different opinions is not either. Not knowing all is not disrespectful either because you dont know it either.Having opinions that are not 100 right is not disrespectful its a very human thing.
You should take responsibility about your feelings if I stir something inside and not presume someone is disrespectful because of that.
FairUmbrella wrote: »Never denied them not being meta if I may correct but how they are being meta is very specific way only. I used warden in my experiment simply because it was available as levelled melee class instead of stam dk or others that I dont have at hand to showcase. Stam dk would have been better to make a point about dizzy since they are not meta or op in class kit sections.
If I make bow bowden or crow thats not yet being meta but when I make it brawler it becomes meta. Adding swing makes them supreme in offence. They lean on very narrow pole in order to continue being meta. Those classes would still make away if that pole is sanded a bit here and there.
FairUmbrella wrote: »Never denied them not being meta if I may correct but how they are being meta is very specific way only. I used warden in my experiment simply because it was available as levelled melee class instead of stam dk or others that I dont have at hand to showcase. Stam dk would have been better to make a point about dizzy since they are not meta or op in class kit sections.
If I make bow bowden or crow thats not yet being meta but when I make it brawler it becomes meta. Adding swing makes them supreme in offence. They lean on very narrow pole in order to continue being meta. Those classes would still make away if that pole is sanded a bit here and there.
And the only reason stamdk uses dizzying swing is because they have no viable alternative, the second stamdk gets access to an instant meele spammable I'll drop dizzy swap to S&B frontbar and never put it on my bar again.
I'm just repeating myself at this point the only reason people use Dizzying is because there aren't any viable alternatives.
Nothing and I mean NOTHING is overperforming about dizzying swing in its current iteration.
ExistingRug61 wrote: »FairUmbrella wrote: »Never denied them not being meta if I may correct but how they are being meta is very specific way only. I used warden in my experiment simply because it was available as levelled melee class instead of stam dk or others that I dont have at hand to showcase. Stam dk would have been better to make a point about dizzy since they are not meta or op in class kit sections.
If I make bow bowden or crow thats not yet being meta but when I make it brawler it becomes meta. Adding swing makes them supreme in offence. They lean on very narrow pole in order to continue being meta. Those classes would still make away if that pole is sanded a bit here and there.
And the only reason stamdk uses dizzying swing is because they have no viable alternative, the second stamdk gets access to an instant meele spammable I'll drop dizzy swap to S&B frontbar and never put it on my bar again.
I'm just repeating myself at this point the only reason people use Dizzying is because there aren't any viable alternatives.
Nothing and I mean NOTHING is overperforming about dizzying swing in its current iteration.
But isn’t dizzy being viable and the others non viable simply a matter of our preferred frame of reference?
I mean let’s look at two build choices that keep being referred to:
1) A players choice of spec, ie combination of stam or mag and a class
In this choice, you assert that both necro specs and stamden are the strongest and meta. The other choices are weaker and non meta.
2) A stam players choice of spammable
In this choice, you assert that dizzy is the strongest and meta, and all others choices are weaker and non meta.
I am not trying to argue against either of these assertions.
My point is that in the case 1, you choose to use the other classes (the majority of the options but weaker choices) as the frame of reference or standard, and thus argue that stamden and necro needs nerfing.
In case 2 however, you choose to use dizzy (the stronger, but minority out of the options choice) as the frame of reference or standard to say it shouldn’t be changed.
So why the inconsistency?
While obviously there is a lot of nuance and different factors that goes into the two cases but at their core they are both cases of a set of many choices where a minority of the choices are the strongest or meta, and the remaining majority of choices is weaker but somewhat even. But your suggested approach differs. If looking at this objectively, shouldn’t we use the same approach for both cases?
ExistingRug61 wrote: »FairUmbrella wrote: »Never denied them not being meta if I may correct but how they are being meta is very specific way only. I used warden in my experiment simply because it was available as levelled melee class instead of stam dk or others that I dont have at hand to showcase. Stam dk would have been better to make a point about dizzy since they are not meta or op in class kit sections.
If I make bow bowden or crow thats not yet being meta but when I make it brawler it becomes meta. Adding swing makes them supreme in offence. They lean on very narrow pole in order to continue being meta. Those classes would still make away if that pole is sanded a bit here and there.
And the only reason stamdk uses dizzying swing is because they have no viable alternative, the second stamdk gets access to an instant meele spammable I'll drop dizzy swap to S&B frontbar and never put it on my bar again.
I'm just repeating myself at this point the only reason people use Dizzying is because there aren't any viable alternatives.
Nothing and I mean NOTHING is overperforming about dizzying swing in its current iteration.
But isn’t dizzy being viable and the others non viable simply a matter of our preferred frame of reference?
I mean let’s look at two build choices that keep being referred to:
1) A players choice of spec, ie combination of stam or mag and a class
In this choice, you assert that both necro specs and stamden are the strongest and meta. The other choices are weaker and non meta.
2) A stam players choice of spammable
In this choice, you assert that dizzy is the strongest and meta, and all others choices are weaker and non meta.
I am not trying to argue against either of these assertions.
My point is that in the case 1, you choose to use the other classes (the majority of the options but weaker choices) as the frame of reference or standard, and thus argue that stamden and necro needs nerfing.
In case 2 however, you choose to use dizzy (the stronger, but minority out of the options choice) as the frame of reference or standard to say it shouldn’t be changed.
So why the inconsistency?
While obviously there is a lot of nuance and different factors that goes into the two cases but at their core they are both cases of a set of many choices where a minority of the choices are the strongest or meta, and the remaining majority of choices is weaker but somewhat even. But your suggested approach differs. If looking at this objectively, shouldn’t we use the same approach for both cases?
FairUmbrella wrote: »My views why surprise+ jabs.
-Surprise requires flanking to capitalize its similar effects. Its a minor condition to be met. Very easy for nbs to achieve via stealth Needs often others skills chained to it to be truly effective even it has high stand alone dmg. Needs to get close which can risky because aoes but this will change soon
Often easily cc breakable if its opening skill. I have rarely seen nb to use it predominantly for dmg. They actually need to move fingers over multiple buttons
Nbs are glasscannon when played most effectively easiest to kill hardest to catch.They run away instantly if pressured Detect pots can counter flanking attempts.
Jabs have huge weaknesses over other skills and that is the channel lock. While spamming they are left open to all counter attacks if not using immovable pots. Low dmg,high pressure. Needs really to spammed hard to work. It has no hard cc included but annoying snare which is not major issue for most classes to deal with.
Trying to use it against targets with high hp,high resistance its not very great. Stam classes can just dizzy them. Templars are often not very tanky specs to begin with or if it they are those jabs lose a lot of potency very quickly becoming tickles.
Tanky and high dmg stamina builds are far harder to counter than above spammables.
FairUmbrella wrote: »Nbs and templars use their class skills over dizzy simply because they work well enough. Are they better than dizzy? Imo not but they are more versatile with medium armor playstyle. I rarely see tankplars but those who play mobility game with class skills
I admit that dizzy is double bladed sword with certain classes it being the godmode and pretty bad with others that favor non-brawler playstyle.
If you go glasscannon it hits very hard but you die very quickly when the tank brawler spec dizzier comes at you what I have been saying all along. No one ever complained about glasscannon builds using it because they are easy to kill.
FairUmbrella wrote: »I will take a d-swing challenge. I have stam sorc available so those who know alot are welcome to give me those viable build/s for it. I go then and play it. Then I will take screenshots with the viable build and with my own without it. I will leave crystal weapon out from the viable so that its more clear cut
My prediction is that I will score alot higher with a dizzy build than without it.
FairUmbrella wrote: »@BohnT2
What is your definition of viable?
To me its not same as meta but anything you can have some success with whereas the meta is anything that yields awesome success.
What if I use same health tank pariah+plaque doctor,without infused trait and no dmg monster. I bet it would do the same as with warden. Easy scores even with all defensive spec and no access to skill like shalks without crystal weapon. Whole point is that dizzy can dominate pvp no matter what you use on your toon. It should be totally opposite if its fully balanced and I go full tank I should no be able to kill even most greenest of players with any class thats balance. Zero investment into something should equate zero results.
Currently dizzy has functionality that can rival an ultimate it’s basically a dawnbreaker without the dot component when its built right in a meta build and strong enough to carry silly anti-dps builds. Actually even Dp has higher cost than Dizzy and yet no one has issues with that you cant spam it all the time. Weird right?
Pvp is dying and thats because powercreep is so high that new players cant get into it before losing their heart by getting nuked as fast as in fps games. Game design should not be maximally stacked against new ppl in pvp.
Good players need them to get pvp bgs matches,1vXs etc. If only elite is left there is no good pvp community all that is left are duels at the end
FairUmbrella wrote: »I definitely want to see you going bgs unarmed and do well in there.
I had “test bg” today with above build getting nice 1v2/3 and winning and actually others were stealing my scores so instead of 17 kills I got them as assists only and ended getting very easy 6 kills all outnumbered and I have zero 1vX talent. I had a two man team for half the match.
No ultimate,no executioner,hardly even gap closer usage,pure dum dum yolo into groups and hacking away. Almost got a five star who went 25-1but cant be sure if was my score or not. Forgot to get screen because other stuff came up to deal with. It was nice getting those easy points with most horrible play I could manage against multiple opponents.
Maybe we can agree to disagree in some areas and have our own reasons to like or dislike the skill.
FairUmbrella wrote: »We all biased in one way or the other btw your view is of that too. No human is free distortions no matter what they might tell to themselves
In case you dont know what above idiom means.
-> Definition of agree to disagree
: to agree not to argue anymore about a difference of opinion
What a brilliant tactic to stand still and watch how someone bring you to execute range. I'm sure that you use Wrecking Blow becasue Dizzy os so unreliable and weakIt's not a powerhouse tho, the stun is tied to off balance which means people can just hold block for 7 seconds while they're OB and you'll never stun them.
Andre_Noir wrote: »What a brilliant tactic to stand still and watch how someone bring you to execute range. I'm sure that you use Wrecking Blow becasue Dizzy os so unreliable and weakIt's not a powerhouse tho, the stun is tied to off balance which means people can just hold block for 7 seconds while they're OB and you'll never stun them.
Andre_Noir wrote: »What a brilliant tactic to stand still and watch how someone bring you to execute range. I'm sure that you use Wrecking Blow becasue Dizzy os so unreliable and weakIt's not a powerhouse tho, the stun is tied to off balance which means people can just hold block for 7 seconds while they're OB and you'll never stun them.
Have you've been introduced to healing?
Andre_Noir wrote: »Andre_Noir wrote: »What a brilliant tactic to stand still and watch how someone bring you to execute range. I'm sure that you use Wrecking Blow becasue Dizzy os so unreliable and weakIt's not a powerhouse tho, the stun is tied to off balance which means people can just hold block for 7 seconds while they're OB and you'll never stun them.
Have you've been introduced to healing?
Oh I see your tactics is even more wonderful in a second view: first burn resources to expensive block and then to even more expensive heal because encountered potato can only smash one ability. BRAVO
When I read dizzy and jabs are ‘OP’ I often think you do realise you can literally walk through the player hitting you with those abilities and they are rendered utterly useless? I would happily take a good instant cast class spammable with the same utility as surprise attack on every stam class and probably never run dizzy again, it makes for boring ridiculously easily read gameplay having to wait over 20 seconds again to just put someone off balance, not even guaranteeing a stun. I would happily any day of the week take spin to win on dual wield over 2h if the perks were even somewhat comparable.