Dizzying swing does too much as spammable

Kory

ZoS put the knock-up effect on one those morphs while you're at it please

WrathOfInnos

I don’t find it overpowered at all. Sure it hits hard, but the cast time and limited range make it very hard to land against a good player. It also requires the user to drop block, so anyone spamming it is vulnerable to stuns and burst.

If I had to change anything it would be to remove the clunky cast time. Obviously the damage would need to be adjusted accordingly to maintain current power level, but it would be more reliable and accessible as a result.

Kory

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I don’t find it overpowered at all. Sure it hits hard, but the cast time and limited range make it very hard to land against a good player. It also requires the user to drop block, so anyone spamming it is vulnerable to stuns and burst.

If I had to change anything it would be to remove the clunky cast time. Obviously the damage would need to be adjusted accordingly to maintain current power level, but it would be more reliable and accessible as a result.

Or they can make up for the clunky cast time by adding knockback/up to it The way it's animated there would still be a cast time unless they want a funny looking instant speed under swing attack that does off balance, stun and or snare...

MrMazurski

2-3 m with melee skills, you need them cut all skills with range, do you can you imagine using a skill like this where you can see your opponent's eyes exactly?

The reality of this skill on pvp.

Cast time, the opponent sees exactly what you are doing because the animation of this skill is as readable as the lag in the game.

The opponent goes out of range 1m, the game doesn't know what's going on, ESO gets a monkey that hits the plates. And your character is suspended in an animation that often can't even be canceled.

If this skill is so great at hitting a dummy then go and see how great it is at hitting moving targets that they can return. Exactly.

It is a good skill, but far from any OP. On cyro it is virtually unplayable by lags. The only class that is force to use it is StamDK with 2h weapon? And I would never call this skill spammable because it's far from others in this genre.

FairUmbrella

As far as I know this isnt a science forum were certain formulas are to be expected before voicing opinion so either believe or not. Might take screenshot next time but it absolutely changes nothing if what is been said is already truthful. I have zero interest in lying.

Alucardo

FairUmbrella wrote: »

Just did a team bg as pug with my pve selfish tank warden:plague doctor weapons,body pariah,light armor zoal monster for giggles so that others would have a slight chance to kill it
Healthy jewels,160 weapon dmg each. 43k health with tri food. Blue and green pieces mostly except monster and with random traits,no weapon dmg glyph on weapons. Base impen mostly.

You see its pretty much zero dmg invested highly unoptimized build and still hit 5k dizzies,shalks with 3.5k meager weapon damage. Regens 6-700 each,regen from netch, max stam what food gives and some armor glyphs.
Penetration just 3.3k.

Destroyed everything that had medium,light armor and some heavy armor stam cros as well. None could kite or block it long enough or if tried died after resources ended took just bit longer than insta ko. Those players were similar average skill joe’s as myself at that round.

Against average players dizzy is super strong currently on stam necros,wardens,dks etc those that use it as their prime spammable skill. Majority of players are just average such as myself and only minority in numbers are what could be described as elite levels.

It definitely needs some tuning to make pvp more attractive to those newer players that will absolutely get wrecked by it from those that have had some experience in pvp well before even learning how to counter it.

13 kills,13 assists,4 deaths
I just spammed dizzy and shalks if remembered that still they exist on my bar deleting people left and right, in pairs etc without dying other than being too sloppy. with resources
Artic wind god mode healing with such a health.

Easy mode I have to say, never felt so powerful as any of my mag toons than what I did as stamden. My average level as mag dk is probably 5 kills,8-11deaths no matter if use 5 light or 5 heavy armor or combined and I had to sweat to get those meager scores and actually put effort into the building process.

So I totally disagree that this skill is balanced as it is.
Imagine how hard it hits with a build that actually specs into dmg and in the hands of a player who has around 3k hours of experience to practice rather than some casual who can instantly double his score with scarecrow of a build on a class he rarely even plays.

If people are dying to a 43k health tank spamming dizzyin swing it says more about your opponents than the ability itself.

Stx

Dizzy hits hard because the wind up makes it a lot harder to land than an instant ability. Also it doesn't stun every time, as someone pointed out, its roughly every 20 seconds.

FairUmbrella

Alucardo wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

Just did a team bg as pug with my pve selfish tank warden:plague doctor weapons,body pariah,light armor zoal monster for giggles so that others would have a slight chance to kill it
Healthy jewels,160 weapon dmg each. 43k health with tri food. Blue and green pieces mostly except monster and with random traits,no weapon dmg glyph on weapons. Base impen mostly.

You see its pretty much zero dmg invested highly unoptimized build and still hit 5k dizzies,shalks with 3.5k meager weapon damage. Regens 6-700 each,regen from netch, max stam what food gives and some armor glyphs.
Penetration just 3.3k.

Destroyed everything that had medium,light armor and some heavy armor stam cros as well. None could kite or block it long enough or if tried died after resources ended took just bit longer than insta ko. Those players were similar average skill joe’s as myself at that round.

Against average players dizzy is super strong currently on stam necros,wardens,dks etc those that use it as their prime spammable skill. Majority of players are just average such as myself and only minority in numbers are what could be described as elite levels.

It definitely needs some tuning to make pvp more attractive to those newer players that will absolutely get wrecked by it from those that have had some experience in pvp well before even learning how to counter it.

13 kills,13 assists,4 deaths
I just spammed dizzy and shalks if remembered that still they exist on my bar deleting people left and right, in pairs etc without dying other than being too sloppy. with resources
Artic wind god mode healing with such a health.

Easy mode I have to say, never felt so powerful as any of my mag toons than what I did as stamden. My average level as mag dk is probably 5 kills,8-11deaths no matter if use 5 light or 5 heavy armor or combined and I had to sweat to get those meager scores and actually put effort into the building process.

So I totally disagree that this skill is balanced as it is.
Imagine how hard it hits with a build that actually specs into dmg and in the hands of a player who has around 3k hours of experience to practice rather than some casual who can instantly double his score with scarecrow of a build on a class he rarely even plays.

If people are dying to a 43k health tank spamming dizzyin swing it says more about your opponents than the ability itself.

They are the majority of pvp community mind that and those that know and fare better are alot smaller percentage of the whole but whom still like to get those easy scores from them.

There is something iffy going on if one skill works at minimum dmg specs as well as maximum ones delivering steady above average success in pvp performance. That cannot be denied if one has actually used dizzy in pvp
I play on Xbox Eu and pvp community is so small that everyone who wants to get match has to go to the group que because somehow solo que dont get matches started anymore as it used to. Its highly unbalanced match ups between premades and pugs. Gods vs mortals,rookies vs rookies whatever come through que.

Handful of the very best are almost exclusively dizzy users having specs that require 2-4 to kill them while they maintain offense under pressure from many opponents while keeping the swing and blastbones,shalks etc going on with heals
Guess what those mostly are stam cros,wardens,dks. All the classes that benefit massively from high health scaling abilities,have a good class burst combined with dizzy. I dont think its a coincidence that all the dizzy builds they are S-tier in pvp bgs. Without that their performance would not be what it is now. There are multiple factors that make certain classes more than others but dizzy is why they have such a good offensive supremacy and their class kit makes them have less weaknesses than mag counterparts.

Raising its cost makes you complain that resources will be gone so have you played a mag dk for a while? Their whole kit has way higher cost than most stamina builds combined. Are those skills op that they need to be expensive? Coag is great heal but most dmg skills are mediocre at best imo. Leap is great as well
If mag dks can come to terms with costly skills so can stamina imo if it ever comes to that.

Many also forget that dizzy stun resets itself if I finish the target and jump to new one. Very easy because most players are not elite squad members
Double tap->stun->kill-> next new target same thing. Happens all the time in bgs.
Often cc is just two taps because many wont recover from it quickly enough. Veterans use unstoppable pots which are like must haves for all builds but newbies however dont know that.
Having to use more complicated attack combos should be a standard in pvp rather than one having exalted position reserved only for stamina classes is not so healthy thing

Marcus_Aurelius

Dizzy is so overpowered that in BGS (at least PC) 3 players out of 4 are always magsorcs.
Good luck trying to go in melee range against a group of magsorcs spamming 9k frags on your face.

In Cyro Dizzy is just useless, you hit the button, count to 5 and sometime you can hit your opponent. And I am talking of stationary guards, not players moving around.

BohnT2

FairUmbrella wrote: »

As far as I know this isnt a science forum were certain formulas are to be expected before voicing opinion so either believe or not. Might take screenshot next time but it absolutely changes nothing if what is been said is already truthful. I have zero interest in lying.

It's to be expected to either provide screenshots of things you claim or have actual explanations that go further than: "That skill is so op because I got a kill with it"
None of the things you claimed about Dizzying swing being overpowered are right and people have explained why:
1. 4-5 of 6 stamspecs tend to run it, because all other spammables that they have access to are utter trash
2. It's not overperforming due to counterplay by being both dodgeable and blockable and by having a distinctive visual cue during its channel time.

Dizzying swing is in line with the performance of suprise attack and jabs and is almost always replaced by those two skills on the classes having access to it, this is further evidence that the skill is not overperforming.

AdamLAD

I don't mind damage abilities to be spammed as i totally understand some players are unable to do good combinations for damage. However I totally agree dizzy swing for one singular skill does too much. In PvP since stamina dominates especially in terms of damage across the board with huge weapon damage vs magicka, dizzy swing will scale better for damage making it hit HARD for a spammable. Not only that it gives a snare and a stun ?. Like im sorry. Where is my spammable that gives a stun ? And snares? They took my frag stun which isn't even a spammable lol. Stamina in general gets a lot more bang for its buck with skills across the board in comparison to magicka

FairUmbrella

Sorc

BohnT2 wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

As far as I know this isnt a science forum were certain formulas are to be expected before voicing opinion so either believe or not. Might take screenshot next time but it absolutely changes nothing if what is been said is already truthful. I have zero interest in lying.

It's to be expected to either provide screenshots of things you claim or have actual explanations that go further than: "That skill is so op because I got a kill with it"
None of the things you claimed about Dizzying swing being overpowered are right and people have explained why:
1. 4-5 of 6 stamspecs tend to run it, because all other spammables that they have access to are utter trash
2. It's not overperforming due to counterplay by being both dodgeable and blockable and by having a distinctive visual cue during its channel time.

Dizzying swing is in line with the performance of suprise attack and jabs and is almost always replaced by those two skills on the classes having access to it, this is further evidence that the skill is not overperforming.

I have explained my points very specifically of why I think its overperforming. If you missed them read again.

Secondly I have read this forums for quite a long time and never I have seen screenshots etc in threads about d-swing in the past… Might have missed some of them but so far havent seen much visual presentations in here about anything so I tend to think its not that common after all.

xDeusEJRx

FairUmbrella wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

Just did a team bg as pug with my pve selfish tank warden:plague doctor weapons,body pariah,light armor zoal monster for giggles so that others would have a slight chance to kill it
Healthy jewels,160 weapon dmg each. 43k health with tri food. Blue and green pieces mostly except monster and with random traits,no weapon dmg glyph on weapons. Base impen mostly.

You see its pretty much zero dmg invested highly unoptimized build and still hit 5k dizzies,shalks with 3.5k meager weapon damage. Regens 6-700 each,regen from netch, max stam what food gives and some armor glyphs.
Penetration just 3.3k.

Destroyed everything that had medium,light armor and some heavy armor stam cros as well. None could kite or block it long enough or if tried died after resources ended took just bit longer than insta ko. Those players were similar average skill joe’s as myself at that round.

Against average players dizzy is super strong currently on stam necros,wardens,dks etc those that use it as their prime spammable skill. Majority of players are just average such as myself and only minority in numbers are what could be described as elite levels.

It definitely needs some tuning to make pvp more attractive to those newer players that will absolutely get wrecked by it from those that have had some experience in pvp well before even learning how to counter it.

13 kills,13 assists,4 deaths
I just spammed dizzy and shalks if remembered that still they exist on my bar deleting people left and right, in pairs etc without dying other than being too sloppy. with resources
Artic wind god mode healing with such a health.

Easy mode I have to say, never felt so powerful as any of my mag toons than what I did as stamden. My average level as mag dk is probably 5 kills,8-11deaths no matter if use 5 light or 5 heavy armor or combined and I had to sweat to get those meager scores and actually put effort into the building process.

So I totally disagree that this skill is balanced as it is.
Imagine how hard it hits with a build that actually specs into dmg and in the hands of a player who has around 3k hours of experience to practice rather than some casual who can instantly double his score with scarecrow of a build on a class he rarely even plays.

If people are dying to a 43k health tank spamming dizzyin swing it says more about your opponents than the ability itself.

Raising its cost makes you complain that resources will be gone so have you played a mag dk for a while? Their whole kit has way higher cost than most stamina builds combined. Are those skills op that they need to be expensive? Coag is great heal but most dmg skills are mediocre at best imo. Leap is great as well
If mag dks can come to terms with costly skills so can stamina imo if it ever comes to that.

I play Magic DK more than any other class, I don't think anyone's arguing that DK's abilities don't have an insane magic cost. But the thing is, it's possible to work around that if you really want to. There's literally a CP passive that restores magicka to you whenever you kill a target, not only that DK's ultimates help to reset your mag pool because of their Battle Roar passive. I play Mag DK with about 1200 mag regen and only 3 pieces of light armor and I can sustain well enough to play on my own. The difference between a Mag DK and a stam toon though is that a Mag DK doesn't have to deal damage, block, heal, sprint, break free, and dodge with their magicka. Stamina has to do all of that with their pool, mag users have the leisure of being able to sit on stamina sometimes, meanwhile stamina users don't. Classes like mag sorc can spam their dark conversion because they're able to sit on a pool of stamina quite easily. Mag classes only use stam actively in a fight to block/break free/ and dodge and if you're using slippery CP passive you get granted a free break free and cc immunity which allows you to conserve stamina.

FairUmbrella

True. Cp is very handy tool. I do bgs mainly so I havent looked much those constellations for awhile.
Skills can be changed and adaptive moves will be made. Sorcs got streak toll and it didn’t destroy anything in game. They just went higher stat pools to keep using it. Roll dodge has spam cost increases and still it can be used effectively after bit of waiting on timer. Having cost increases rarely breaks anything permanently what I have seen.

Marcus_Aurelius

FairUmbrella wrote: »

Just did a team bg as pug with my pve selfish tank warden:
13 kills,13 assists,4 deaths

I don't see anything very good in that, I can show you screenshots with 18 kill and 0 deaths on my magsorc.

ExistingRug61

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

Just did a team bg as pug with my pve selfish tank warden:plague doctor weapons,body pariah,light armor zoal monster for giggles so that others would have a slight chance to kill it
Healthy jewels,160 weapon dmg each. 43k health with tri food. Blue and green pieces mostly except monster and with random traits,no weapon dmg glyph on weapons. Base impen mostly.

You see its pretty much zero dmg invested highly unoptimized build and still hit 5k dizzies,shalks with 3.5k meager weapon damage. Regens 6-700 each,regen from netch, max stam what food gives and some armor glyphs.
Penetration just 3.3k.

Destroyed everything that had medium,light armor and some heavy armor stam cros as well. None could kite or block it long enough or if tried died after resources ended took just bit longer than insta ko. Those players were similar average skill joe’s as myself at that round.

Against average players dizzy is super strong currently on stam necros,wardens,dks etc those that use it as their prime spammable skill. Majority of players are just average such as myself and only minority in numbers are what could be described as elite levels.

It definitely needs some tuning to make pvp more attractive to those newer players that will absolutely get wrecked by it from those that have had some experience in pvp well before even learning how to counter it.

13 kills,13 assists,4 deaths
I just spammed dizzy and shalks if remembered that still they exist on my bar deleting people left and right, in pairs etc without dying other than being too sloppy. with resources
Artic wind god mode healing with such a health.

Easy mode I have to say, never felt so powerful as any of my mag toons than what I did as stamden. My average level as mag dk is probably 5 kills,8-11deaths no matter if use 5 light or 5 heavy armor or combined and I had to sweat to get those meager scores and actually put effort into the building process.

So I totally disagree that this skill is balanced as it is.
Imagine how hard it hits with a build that actually specs into dmg and in the hands of a player who has around 3k hours of experience to practice rather than some casual who can instantly double his score with scarecrow of a build on a class he rarely even plays.

If people are dying to a 43k health tank spamming dizzyin swing it says more about your opponents than the ability itself.

Raising its cost makes you complain that resources will be gone so have you played a mag dk for a while? Their whole kit has way higher cost than most stamina builds combined. Are those skills op that they need to be expensive? Coag is great heal but most dmg skills are mediocre at best imo. Leap is great as well
If mag dks can come to terms with costly skills so can stamina imo if it ever comes to that.

I play Magic DK more than any other class, I don't think anyone's arguing that DK's abilities don't have an insane magic cost. But the thing is, it's possible to work around that if you really want to. There's literally a CP passive that restores magicka to you whenever you kill a target, not only that DK's ultimates help to reset your mag pool because of their Battle Roar passive. I play Mag DK with about 1200 mag regen and only 3 pieces of light armor and I can sustain well enough to play on my own. The difference between a Mag DK and a stam toon though is that a Mag DK doesn't have to deal damage, block, heal, sprint, break free, and dodge with their magicka. Stamina has to do all of that with their pool, mag users have the leisure of being able to sit on stamina sometimes, meanwhile stamina users don't. Classes like mag sorc can spam their dark conversion because they're able to sit on a pool of stamina quite easily. Mag classes only use stam actively in a fight to block/break free/ and dodge and if you're using slippery CP passive you get granted a free break free and cc immunity which allows you to conserve stamina.

Yeah but conversely, a stam toon can leverage its off stat mag pool for utility, buffs and class heals, whereas a on a mag toon these are from the primary pool so compete for resources with damage and heals. For example stam sorc can do exactly the mirror of what you describe with mag sorc- sit on its off mag pool and then spam dark deal.

Ie, a rough (simplified) breakdown of pool usage:

Mag toon:
Primary pool (mag) used for: damage, heals, buffs/utility
Off pool (stam) used for: core combat abilities (dodge, block etc)

Stam toon:
Primary pool (stam) used for: damage, some heals, core combat abilities
Off pool (mag) used for: buffs/utility, other heals

Realistically both stam and mag toons have to manage both pools, just for different things. So while that is a difference, I wouldn’t really say that having certain things vs other things come from the off pool gives a specific advantage in resource management. Perhaps one of the above synergises better with an individuals particular play style better though, making it seem easier for that player though.

Xeniph

FairUmbrella wrote: »

I have certain points that bothers me with this one skill when playing as magicka classes other than sorcerers. When I play stamina I dont mind this skill because its so much easier to counter.

Range: is still 7m because tooltip doesnt tell that anymore.. If its then its way too long even for a greatsword. Long reach makes it hard to evade for squishy builds in bg environments that are close quarters most of the time.
Paired with gap closers and staminas access to high movement speeds it can be almost impossible to not get hit by that multiple times in a short period no matter what is done to prevent it ie rolling,los,blocking,healing whatever.That ends zero resources pretty quickly and dying.

Multiple powerful effects:stun+ off balance+snare if immune to stun.
Those together are too much already for such a high performing ability.

To take out staminas crown as king of pvp I have some suggestions how to balance dizzy.
-Way higher cost if all functions are kept as they are because now its more than any other equivalent.
Maybe 4k stamina to prevent mindless jamming of this skill and having to think when to apply it in a burst combo
I would also like to see added fatigue mechanism similar to streak and roll dodge has to take some wind of out it.
It should take a toll on wielder to swing a big sword as it takes to defend against it by opponents.
Currently even with a bare minimum stamina pool and regen this can spammed very casually until most opponents die. Its way too easy to use. Anyone can do it after little practice on a dummy.

-Remove the snare possibility.

-Limit range to 2-3 meters. 7m is way too much when gap closers exist already. Then kiting should be more easier than its now.

+Buff class spammables to give alternatives to dizzy on stam classes

First, a bit of context,

When ESO was released there were no class abilities that utilized stamina, zero. Therefore the weapon lines were the only way a player could decide a Stamina/Magicka focus.

Back then both morphs did a 4m knock back and 3.5 second stun with a 1.1 second cast time. Wrecking had the empower and Dizzy had the maim. Consequently, nobody used Dizzy. Out of those that used either morph, they were overwhelmingly gankers.

Over time and with the introduction of stamina class morphs, the devs have been adjusting both Dizzy and Wrecking on a fairly regular schedule, every year or so.

Now for your suggestions-

1) Range Reduction-
I can actually get on board with this, but your range of 2-3 meters is wholly inconsistent with all other melee abilities in the game at 5m. The premise behind 2h abilities being 7m is outdated due to the general availability of speed to characters today. No longer is it true that heavy brawlers are super slow and require this much compensation, especially with it's cat time reduction. So I can see setting it to 5m, though I have to point out that having a cast time AND 5m may be too punishing.

2) It's multiple effects-
The Stun with Off Balance is also consistent with other spammable abilities and I would agru should be placed back onto BOTH Morphs. However I will concede that the snare should be removed, but not because it's out of line, but rather useless. Instead the morphs should go back to their original design and offer Empower or Maim.

3) Cost Increase-
Your suggestion here is based solely on bias. The ability conforms to spammables cost across the board for all types.

4) It's damage-
Comparatively speaking, it does a smidge more damage because it has a cast time, but overall it's very comparable to all the other spammables of both types.

If you are having issues with Dizzy/Wrecking, I would suggest looking into how you play, your build or possibly both. I'd rather deal with a cast time spammable any day over an instant. It's much easier, to me, to block/roll/shield/heal and ability with a telegraph than an instant with no telegraph.

Now of course we have all taken this ability to the face, probably hundreds of times by this point. However it's still far easier to defend against.

And finally,
I wholeheartedly agree that they should make class abilities more attractive, especially spammables. However, what would really be the point of the weapon lines then?
I also suspect next update you will see a large shift to Crushing Weapon on some specific builds and will be wishing you could go back to dealing with Dizzy spam.

FairUmbrella

Xeniph wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

I have certain points that bothers me with this one skill when playing as magicka classes other than sorcerers. When I play stamina I dont mind this skill because its so much easier to counter.

Range: is still 7m because tooltip doesnt tell that anymore.. If its then its way too long even for a greatsword. Long reach makes it hard to evade for squishy builds in bg environments that are close quarters most of the time.
Paired with gap closers and staminas access to high movement speeds it can be almost impossible to not get hit by that multiple times in a short period no matter what is done to prevent it ie rolling,los,blocking,healing whatever.That ends zero resources pretty quickly and dying.

Multiple powerful effects:stun+ off balance+snare if immune to stun.
Those together are too much already for such a high performing ability.

To take out staminas crown as king of pvp I have some suggestions how to balance dizzy.
-Way higher cost if all functions are kept as they are because now its more than any other equivalent.
Maybe 4k stamina to prevent mindless jamming of this skill and having to think when to apply it in a burst combo
I would also like to see added fatigue mechanism similar to streak and roll dodge has to take some wind of out it.
It should take a toll on wielder to swing a big sword as it takes to defend against it by opponents.
Currently even with a bare minimum stamina pool and regen this can spammed very casually until most opponents die. Its way too easy to use. Anyone can do it after little practice on a dummy.

-Remove the snare possibility.

-Limit range to 2-3 meters. 7m is way too much when gap closers exist already. Then kiting should be more easier than its now.

+Buff class spammables to give alternatives to dizzy on stam classes

First, a bit of context,

When ESO was released there were no class abilities that utilized stamina, zero. Therefore the weapon lines were the only way a player could decide a Stamina/Magicka focus.

Back then both morphs did a 4m knock back and 3.5 second stun with a 1.1 second cast time. Wrecking had the empower and Dizzy had the maim. Consequently, nobody used Dizzy. Out of those that used either morph, they were overwhelmingly gankers.

Over time and with the introduction of stamina class morphs, the devs have been adjusting both Dizzy and Wrecking on a fairly regular schedule, every year or so.

Now for your suggestions-

1) Range Reduction-
I can actually get on board with this, but your range of 2-3 meters is wholly inconsistent with all other melee abilities in the game at 5m. The premise behind 2h abilities being 7m is outdated due to the general availability of speed to characters today. No longer is it true that heavy brawlers are super slow and require this much compensation, especially with it's cat time reduction. So I can see setting it to 5m, though I have to point out that having a cast time AND 5m may be too punishing.

2) It's multiple effects-
The Stun with Off Balance is also consistent with other spammable abilities and I would agru should be placed back onto BOTH Morphs. However I will concede that the snare should be removed, but not because it's out of line, but rather useless. Instead the morphs should go back to their original design and offer Empower or Maim.

3) Cost Increase-
Your suggestion here is based solely on bias. The ability conforms to spammables cost across the board for all types.

4) It's damage-
Comparatively speaking, it does a smidge more damage because it has a cast time, but overall it's very comparable to all the other spammables of both types.

If you are having issues with Dizzy/Wrecking, I would suggest looking into how you play, your build or possibly both. I'd rather deal with a cast time spammable any day over an instant. It's much easier, to me, to block/roll/shield/heal and ability with a telegraph than an instant with no telegraph.

Now of course we have all taken this ability to the face, probably hundreds of times by this point. However it's still far easier to defend against.

And finally,
I wholeheartedly agree that they should make class abilities more attractive, especially spammables. However, what would really be the point of the weapon lines then?
I also suspect next update you will see a large shift to Crushing Weapon on some specific builds and will be wishing you could go back to dealing with Dizzy spam.

I feel that I have learned something from you today. Great piece what you wrote there.

The powercreep has made my favorite glasscannon playstyle pretty much obsolete patch after patch as magicka toons. So many skills hit like a train that eventually something can hit no matter how well I try to defend from them. It feels cheap I have to admit after getting deleted my walking juggernauts that barely block or roll dodge while pushing through insane amounts of incoming damage and keeping up full offense at the same time
Creep kills diversity and now I use same defensive sets with all builds except my stam sorc that moves fast enough away from dizzy spammers.

Crushing will definitely be strong but its even more clunkier than dizzy but can hit further away. Pariah will be needed 🤪

BohnT2

FairUmbrella wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

I have certain points that bothers me with this one skill when playing as magicka classes other than sorcerers. When I play stamina I dont mind this skill because its so much easier to counter.

Range: is still 7m because tooltip doesnt tell that anymore.. If its then its way too long even for a greatsword. Long reach makes it hard to evade for squishy builds in bg environments that are close quarters most of the time.
Paired with gap closers and staminas access to high movement speeds it can be almost impossible to not get hit by that multiple times in a short period no matter what is done to prevent it ie rolling,los,blocking,healing whatever.That ends zero resources pretty quickly and dying.

Multiple powerful effects:stun+ off balance+snare if immune to stun.
Those together are too much already for such a high performing ability.

To take out staminas crown as king of pvp I have some suggestions how to balance dizzy.
-Way higher cost if all functions are kept as they are because now its more than any other equivalent.
Maybe 4k stamina to prevent mindless jamming of this skill and having to think when to apply it in a burst combo
I would also like to see added fatigue mechanism similar to streak and roll dodge has to take some wind of out it.
It should take a toll on wielder to swing a big sword as it takes to defend against it by opponents.
Currently even with a bare minimum stamina pool and regen this can spammed very casually until most opponents die. Its way too easy to use. Anyone can do it after little practice on a dummy.

-Remove the snare possibility.

-Limit range to 2-3 meters. 7m is way too much when gap closers exist already. Then kiting should be more easier than its now.

+Buff class spammables to give alternatives to dizzy on stam classes

First, a bit of context,

When ESO was released there were no class abilities that utilized stamina, zero. Therefore the weapon lines were the only way a player could decide a Stamina/Magicka focus.

Back then both morphs did a 4m knock back and 3.5 second stun with a 1.1 second cast time. Wrecking had the empower and Dizzy had the maim. Consequently, nobody used Dizzy. Out of those that used either morph, they were overwhelmingly gankers.

Over time and with the introduction of stamina class morphs, the devs have been adjusting both Dizzy and Wrecking on a fairly regular schedule, every year or so.

Now for your suggestions-

1) Range Reduction-
I can actually get on board with this, but your range of 2-3 meters is wholly inconsistent with all other melee abilities in the game at 5m. The premise behind 2h abilities being 7m is outdated due to the general availability of speed to characters today. No longer is it true that heavy brawlers are super slow and require this much compensation, especially with it's cat time reduction. So I can see setting it to 5m, though I have to point out that having a cast time AND 5m may be too punishing.

2) It's multiple effects-
The Stun with Off Balance is also consistent with other spammable abilities and I would agru should be placed back onto BOTH Morphs. However I will concede that the snare should be removed, but not because it's out of line, but rather useless. Instead the morphs should go back to their original design and offer Empower or Maim.

3) Cost Increase-
Your suggestion here is based solely on bias. The ability conforms to spammables cost across the board for all types.

4) It's damage-
Comparatively speaking, it does a smidge more damage because it has a cast time, but overall it's very comparable to all the other spammables of both types.

If you are having issues with Dizzy/Wrecking, I would suggest looking into how you play, your build or possibly both. I'd rather deal with a cast time spammable any day over an instant. It's much easier, to me, to block/roll/shield/heal and ability with a telegraph than an instant with no telegraph.

Now of course we have all taken this ability to the face, probably hundreds of times by this point. However it's still far easier to defend against.

And finally,
I wholeheartedly agree that they should make class abilities more attractive, especially spammables. However, what would really be the point of the weapon lines then?
I also suspect next update you will see a large shift to Crushing Weapon on some specific builds and will be wishing you could go back to dealing with Dizzy spam.

I feel that I have learned something from you today. Great piece what you wrote there.

The powercreep has made my favorite glasscannon playstyle pretty much obsolete patch after patch as magicka toons. So many skills hit like a train that eventually something can hit no matter how well I try to defend from them. It feels cheap I have to admit after getting deleted my walking juggernauts that barely block or roll dodge while pushing through insane amounts of incoming damage and keeping up full offense at the same time
Creep kills diversity and now I use same defensive sets with all builds except my stam sorc that moves fast enough away from dizzy spammers.

Crushing will definitely be strong but its even more clunkier than dizzy but can hit further away. Pariah will be needed 🤪

any ability that isn't reliable directly drops to the trash tier just like crushing weapon or dizzy with a 5m range.
this game doesn't need more useless abilities

Xeniph

BohnT2 wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

I have certain points that bothers me with this one skill when playing as magicka classes other than sorcerers. When I play stamina I dont mind this skill because its so much easier to counter.

Range: is still 7m because tooltip doesnt tell that anymore.. If its then its way too long even for a greatsword. Long reach makes it hard to evade for squishy builds in bg environments that are close quarters most of the time.
Paired with gap closers and staminas access to high movement speeds it can be almost impossible to not get hit by that multiple times in a short period no matter what is done to prevent it ie rolling,los,blocking,healing whatever.That ends zero resources pretty quickly and dying.

Multiple powerful effects:stun+ off balance+snare if immune to stun.
Those together are too much already for such a high performing ability.

To take out staminas crown as king of pvp I have some suggestions how to balance dizzy.
-Way higher cost if all functions are kept as they are because now its more than any other equivalent.
Maybe 4k stamina to prevent mindless jamming of this skill and having to think when to apply it in a burst combo
I would also like to see added fatigue mechanism similar to streak and roll dodge has to take some wind of out it.
It should take a toll on wielder to swing a big sword as it takes to defend against it by opponents.
Currently even with a bare minimum stamina pool and regen this can spammed very casually until most opponents die. Its way too easy to use. Anyone can do it after little practice on a dummy.

-Remove the snare possibility.

-Limit range to 2-3 meters. 7m is way too much when gap closers exist already. Then kiting should be more easier than its now.

+Buff class spammables to give alternatives to dizzy on stam classes

First, a bit of context,

When ESO was released there were no class abilities that utilized stamina, zero. Therefore the weapon lines were the only way a player could decide a Stamina/Magicka focus.

Back then both morphs did a 4m knock back and 3.5 second stun with a 1.1 second cast time. Wrecking had the empower and Dizzy had the maim. Consequently, nobody used Dizzy. Out of those that used either morph, they were overwhelmingly gankers.

Over time and with the introduction of stamina class morphs, the devs have been adjusting both Dizzy and Wrecking on a fairly regular schedule, every year or so.

Now for your suggestions-

1) Range Reduction-
I can actually get on board with this, but your range of 2-3 meters is wholly inconsistent with all other melee abilities in the game at 5m. The premise behind 2h abilities being 7m is outdated due to the general availability of speed to characters today. No longer is it true that heavy brawlers are super slow and require this much compensation, especially with it's cat time reduction. So I can see setting it to 5m, though I have to point out that having a cast time AND 5m may be too punishing.

2) It's multiple effects-
The Stun with Off Balance is also consistent with other spammable abilities and I would agru should be placed back onto BOTH Morphs. However I will concede that the snare should be removed, but not because it's out of line, but rather useless. Instead the morphs should go back to their original design and offer Empower or Maim.

3) Cost Increase-
Your suggestion here is based solely on bias. The ability conforms to spammables cost across the board for all types.

4) It's damage-
Comparatively speaking, it does a smidge more damage because it has a cast time, but overall it's very comparable to all the other spammables of both types.

If you are having issues with Dizzy/Wrecking, I would suggest looking into how you play, your build or possibly both. I'd rather deal with a cast time spammable any day over an instant. It's much easier, to me, to block/roll/shield/heal and ability with a telegraph than an instant with no telegraph.

Now of course we have all taken this ability to the face, probably hundreds of times by this point. However it's still far easier to defend against.

And finally,
I wholeheartedly agree that they should make class abilities more attractive, especially spammables. However, what would really be the point of the weapon lines then?
I also suspect next update you will see a large shift to Crushing Weapon on some specific builds and will be wishing you could go back to dealing with Dizzy spam.

I feel that I have learned something from you today. Great piece what you wrote there.

The powercreep has made my favorite glasscannon playstyle pretty much obsolete patch after patch as magicka toons. So many skills hit like a train that eventually something can hit no matter how well I try to defend from them. It feels cheap I have to admit after getting deleted my walking juggernauts that barely block or roll dodge while pushing through insane amounts of incoming damage and keeping up full offense at the same time
Creep kills diversity and now I use same defensive sets with all builds except my stam sorc that moves fast enough away from dizzy spammers.

Crushing will definitely be strong but its even more clunkier than dizzy but can hit further away. Pariah will be needed 🤪

any ability that isn't reliable directly drops to the trash tier just like crushing weapon or dizzy with a 5m range.
this game doesn't need more useless abilities

If you think Crushing is useless, you aren't using it properly.

But I can totally disagree that dropping Dizzy/Wrecking to 5m would not put it in the useless category, like suddenly most stamwardens would switch to birds. Not gonna happen.

However, as in my original post, I do think the cast time would probably need to be removed if the range were to drop to 5m. But over all the ability's usefulness doesn't hinge on it's extra 2m range and in fact I doubt it would be much noticed at all.
I only notice the range increase when someone runs from me lol.

divnyi

If damage is the problem, can we make one morph to do good damage and other morph to have good utility? As it stands now, there is no difference.

FairUmbrella

I have also had some troubles trying to weave crushing into fast bow rotation and after canceling say like poison injection/magnum,hitting light attack into crushing wep and toon just stops without crushing getting into animation phase. This was on my old xbox one x thou so I have try on next gen I recently got. It might be server issues or something else…I would love to know if there is something I am missing. It would really be nice on my bow sorc rotation due to having nice dmg potential

In pvp the animation feels somewhat bit long to build steady pressure even its described as instant skill but imo its really feels like a cast time skill due to the animation taking its loading phase.
Sometimes I have seen it expiring before I get the light attack but again I really dont know if its on the skill or server. I am pretty confident that if it had same duration as crystal weapon it would be more fluid rotating it.

I managed to make most of elemental weapon as mag sorc as opening skill and weaving rest after it.

Alucardo

Xeniph wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

I have certain points that bothers me with this one skill when playing as magicka classes other than sorcerers. When I play stamina I dont mind this skill because its so much easier to counter.

Range: is still 7m because tooltip doesnt tell that anymore.. If its then its way too long even for a greatsword. Long reach makes it hard to evade for squishy builds in bg environments that are close quarters most of the time.
Paired with gap closers and staminas access to high movement speeds it can be almost impossible to not get hit by that multiple times in a short period no matter what is done to prevent it ie rolling,los,blocking,healing whatever.That ends zero resources pretty quickly and dying.

Multiple powerful effects:stun+ off balance+snare if immune to stun.
Those together are too much already for such a high performing ability.

To take out staminas crown as king of pvp I have some suggestions how to balance dizzy.
-Way higher cost if all functions are kept as they are because now its more than any other equivalent.
Maybe 4k stamina to prevent mindless jamming of this skill and having to think when to apply it in a burst combo
I would also like to see added fatigue mechanism similar to streak and roll dodge has to take some wind of out it.
It should take a toll on wielder to swing a big sword as it takes to defend against it by opponents.
Currently even with a bare minimum stamina pool and regen this can spammed very casually until most opponents die. Its way too easy to use. Anyone can do it after little practice on a dummy.

-Remove the snare possibility.

-Limit range to 2-3 meters. 7m is way too much when gap closers exist already. Then kiting should be more easier than its now.

+Buff class spammables to give alternatives to dizzy on stam classes

First, a bit of context,

When ESO was released there were no class abilities that utilized stamina, zero. Therefore the weapon lines were the only way a player could decide a Stamina/Magicka focus.

Back then both morphs did a 4m knock back and 3.5 second stun with a 1.1 second cast time. Wrecking had the empower and Dizzy had the maim. Consequently, nobody used Dizzy. Out of those that used either morph, they were overwhelmingly gankers.

Over time and with the introduction of stamina class morphs, the devs have been adjusting both Dizzy and Wrecking on a fairly regular schedule, every year or so.

Now for your suggestions-

1) Range Reduction-
I can actually get on board with this, but your range of 2-3 meters is wholly inconsistent with all other melee abilities in the game at 5m. The premise behind 2h abilities being 7m is outdated due to the general availability of speed to characters today. No longer is it true that heavy brawlers are super slow and require this much compensation, especially with it's cat time reduction. So I can see setting it to 5m, though I have to point out that having a cast time AND 5m may be too punishing.

2) It's multiple effects-
The Stun with Off Balance is also consistent with other spammable abilities and I would agru should be placed back onto BOTH Morphs. However I will concede that the snare should be removed, but not because it's out of line, but rather useless. Instead the morphs should go back to their original design and offer Empower or Maim.

3) Cost Increase-
Your suggestion here is based solely on bias. The ability conforms to spammables cost across the board for all types.

4) It's damage-
Comparatively speaking, it does a smidge more damage because it has a cast time, but overall it's very comparable to all the other spammables of both types.

If you are having issues with Dizzy/Wrecking, I would suggest looking into how you play, your build or possibly both. I'd rather deal with a cast time spammable any day over an instant. It's much easier, to me, to block/roll/shield/heal and ability with a telegraph than an instant with no telegraph.

Now of course we have all taken this ability to the face, probably hundreds of times by this point. However it's still far easier to defend against.

And finally,
I wholeheartedly agree that they should make class abilities more attractive, especially spammables. However, what would really be the point of the weapon lines then?
I also suspect next update you will see a large shift to Crushing Weapon on some specific builds and will be wishing you could go back to dealing with Dizzy spam.

I feel that I have learned something from you today. Great piece what you wrote there.

The powercreep has made my favorite glasscannon playstyle pretty much obsolete patch after patch as magicka toons. So many skills hit like a train that eventually something can hit no matter how well I try to defend from them. It feels cheap I have to admit after getting deleted my walking juggernauts that barely block or roll dodge while pushing through insane amounts of incoming damage and keeping up full offense at the same time
Creep kills diversity and now I use same defensive sets with all builds except my stam sorc that moves fast enough away from dizzy spammers.

Crushing will definitely be strong but its even more clunkier than dizzy but can hit further away. Pariah will be needed 🤪

any ability that isn't reliable directly drops to the trash tier just like crushing weapon or dizzy with a 5m range.
this game doesn't need more useless abilities

But I can totally disagree that dropping Dizzy/Wrecking to 5m would not put it in the useless category, like suddenly most stamwardens would switch to birds. Not gonna happen.

Cutting dive is underrated. Easy off balance proc with a hard hitting bleed that stacks.



I've always used it over dizzying swing. It also just has a better synergy with the class as a whole because of passives.

BohnT2

Xeniph wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

I have certain points that bothers me with this one skill when playing as magicka classes other than sorcerers. When I play stamina I dont mind this skill because its so much easier to counter.

Range: is still 7m because tooltip doesnt tell that anymore.. If its then its way too long even for a greatsword. Long reach makes it hard to evade for squishy builds in bg environments that are close quarters most of the time.
Paired with gap closers and staminas access to high movement speeds it can be almost impossible to not get hit by that multiple times in a short period no matter what is done to prevent it ie rolling,los,blocking,healing whatever.That ends zero resources pretty quickly and dying.

Multiple powerful effects:stun+ off balance+snare if immune to stun.
Those together are too much already for such a high performing ability.

To take out staminas crown as king of pvp I have some suggestions how to balance dizzy.
-Way higher cost if all functions are kept as they are because now its more than any other equivalent.
Maybe 4k stamina to prevent mindless jamming of this skill and having to think when to apply it in a burst combo
I would also like to see added fatigue mechanism similar to streak and roll dodge has to take some wind of out it.
It should take a toll on wielder to swing a big sword as it takes to defend against it by opponents.
Currently even with a bare minimum stamina pool and regen this can spammed very casually until most opponents die. Its way too easy to use. Anyone can do it after little practice on a dummy.

-Remove the snare possibility.

-Limit range to 2-3 meters. 7m is way too much when gap closers exist already. Then kiting should be more easier than its now.

+Buff class spammables to give alternatives to dizzy on stam classes

First, a bit of context,

When ESO was released there were no class abilities that utilized stamina, zero. Therefore the weapon lines were the only way a player could decide a Stamina/Magicka focus.

Back then both morphs did a 4m knock back and 3.5 second stun with a 1.1 second cast time. Wrecking had the empower and Dizzy had the maim. Consequently, nobody used Dizzy. Out of those that used either morph, they were overwhelmingly gankers.

Over time and with the introduction of stamina class morphs, the devs have been adjusting both Dizzy and Wrecking on a fairly regular schedule, every year or so.

Now for your suggestions-

1) Range Reduction-
I can actually get on board with this, but your range of 2-3 meters is wholly inconsistent with all other melee abilities in the game at 5m. The premise behind 2h abilities being 7m is outdated due to the general availability of speed to characters today. No longer is it true that heavy brawlers are super slow and require this much compensation, especially with it's cat time reduction. So I can see setting it to 5m, though I have to point out that having a cast time AND 5m may be too punishing.

2) It's multiple effects-
The Stun with Off Balance is also consistent with other spammable abilities and I would agru should be placed back onto BOTH Morphs. However I will concede that the snare should be removed, but not because it's out of line, but rather useless. Instead the morphs should go back to their original design and offer Empower or Maim.

3) Cost Increase-
Your suggestion here is based solely on bias. The ability conforms to spammables cost across the board for all types.

4) It's damage-
Comparatively speaking, it does a smidge more damage because it has a cast time, but overall it's very comparable to all the other spammables of both types.

If you are having issues with Dizzy/Wrecking, I would suggest looking into how you play, your build or possibly both. I'd rather deal with a cast time spammable any day over an instant. It's much easier, to me, to block/roll/shield/heal and ability with a telegraph than an instant with no telegraph.

Now of course we have all taken this ability to the face, probably hundreds of times by this point. However it's still far easier to defend against.

And finally,
I wholeheartedly agree that they should make class abilities more attractive, especially spammables. However, what would really be the point of the weapon lines then?
I also suspect next update you will see a large shift to Crushing Weapon on some specific builds and will be wishing you could go back to dealing with Dizzy spam.

I feel that I have learned something from you today. Great piece what you wrote there.

The powercreep has made my favorite glasscannon playstyle pretty much obsolete patch after patch as magicka toons. So many skills hit like a train that eventually something can hit no matter how well I try to defend from them. It feels cheap I have to admit after getting deleted my walking juggernauts that barely block or roll dodge while pushing through insane amounts of incoming damage and keeping up full offense at the same time
Creep kills diversity and now I use same defensive sets with all builds except my stam sorc that moves fast enough away from dizzy spammers.

Crushing will definitely be strong but its even more clunkier than dizzy but can hit further away. Pariah will be needed 🤪

any ability that isn't reliable directly drops to the trash tier just like crushing weapon or dizzy with a 5m range.
this game doesn't need more useless abilities

If you think Crushing is useless, you aren't using it properly.

But I can totally disagree that dropping Dizzy/Wrecking to 5m would not put it in the useless category, like suddenly most stamwardens would switch to birds. Not gonna happen.

However, as in my original post, I do think the cast time would probably need to be removed if the range were to drop to 5m. But over all the ability's usefulness doesn't hinge on it's extra 2m range and in fact I doubt it would be much noticed at all.
I only notice the range increase when someone runs from me lol.

If you're using crushing on anything that's not a stamsorc ganker you're just crippling yourself.
The only weapon that can use it like staves make use of ELE weapon is bow and if you run bow frontbar you're not even trying to do good.

BohnT2

divnyi wrote: »

If damage is the problem, can we make one morph to do good damage and other morph to have good utility? As it stands now, there is no difference.

No

FairUmbrella

I found stam sorc bow gank from youtube and tried it but somehow couldn’t make crushing fire fast enough to finish burst on time due the twirl animation that allowed ppl to cc break and heal away the earlier burst

Marcus_Aurelius

If my warden could have Surprise Attack I would ditch Dizzy in no time cause I hate skill with cast time that are so unreliable in Cyro due to lag.
It's not that Dizzy is so good, it's that we have no alternatives

Rhavein

So, let me get this straight. You do not run with an optimal build in PvP, yet you complain. This doesn't add up. If you go PvE sets then it will not work. Additionally, you do not consider the class imbalances (i.e. Stamden), you do not consider your MMR (if you play too little BGs or you lose a lot then you will be grouped with similar players like such as less experienced) and then making a conclusion?

Most people are in here doing PTS, playing in Cyrodiil or going Alikr to get better and/or learn the game mechanics and their class. It is just disrespectful to all these people when you do two BGs in a day and losing against a player who invested an effort into his char.

FairUmbrella

I do run pvp geared traits even on non-meta builds that I like to run to challenge myself. I play anti-meta because its often way too easy to use added op stuff to be a stimulating experience.
I can also be best of my team as well as the worst.
I have certain opinions about this topic which I am entitled to raise so no one is disrespecting anyone other than misunderstanding it as such in their own minds. I am not the first to do so and mostly not last either to complain about dizzy

What is viable and whats not is highly subjective in nature in all regards

I am also a console player who doesnt have access to pts which I mentioned and also play bgs exclusively for last 5 years(not mentioned before)

What bothers me is that currently there are very powerful gear and certain skills that seem to be doing most of the work rather than player behind them.
I am not talking about procs per se but some strong cheese do belong to them. I am happy that they did got adjusted.

What does annoy me is that ppl can still be very very tanky even in no cp environment ms and achieve great dmg where as I cant beat them even by having insane penetration factored in with as much weapon damage as its available to me as well as doing kiting,los at the same time while opponents pretty much stand in place wacking dizzy and occasional vigor hits. Its like being steered to join them to get chances.

BohnT2

FairUmbrella wrote: »

I do run pvp geared traits even on non-meta builds that I like to run to challenge myself. I play anti-meta because its often way too easy to be a stimulating experience.
I can also be best of my team as well as the worst.
I have certain opinions about this topic which I am entitled to raise so no one is disrespecting anyone other than misunderstanding it as such in their own minds. I am not the first to do so and mostly not last either to complain about dizzy

What is viable and whats not is highly subjective in nature in all regards

I am also a console player who doesnt have access to pts which I mentioned and also play bgs exclusively for last 5 years(not mentioned before)

It's disrespectful to spread false information build upon wrong data while knowing your data is wrong.
Playing an off-meta (=bad) build and then asking for the game to be balanced around that is no healthy for any discussion or the game overall.

And there is nothing subjective about what's meta, meta is Stamden and both Necros and everyone who says different is wrong.

Everyone who has ever complained about Dizzy has proven over time that they are biased due to being a "Low APM player" or because they use suboptimal builds or have no situational awareness.
The only time complaining about Dizzying was fine, was when Zos introduced Casttimes and buffed Dizzy's damage which allowed to still land ults with the knockback and ult casttimes were the bigger part of the problem here.