Dizzying swing does too much as spammable

FairUmbrella

I have certain points that bothers me with this one skill when playing as magicka classes other than sorcerers. When I play stamina I dont mind this skill because its so much easier to counter.

Range: is still 7m because tooltip doesnt tell that anymore.. If its then its way too long even for a greatsword. Long reach makes it hard to evade for squishy builds in bg environments that are close quarters most of the time.
Paired with gap closers and staminas access to high movement speeds it can be almost impossible to not get hit by that multiple times in a short period no matter what is done to prevent it ie rolling,los,blocking,healing whatever.That ends zero resources pretty quickly and dying.

Multiple powerful effects:stun+ off balance+snare if immune to stun.
Those together are too much already for such a high performing ability.

To take out staminas crown as king of pvp I have some suggestions how to balance dizzy.
-Way higher cost if all functions are kept as they are because now its more than any other equivalent.
Maybe 4k stamina to prevent mindless jamming of this skill and having to think when to apply it in a burst combo
I would also like to see added fatigue mechanism similar to streak and roll dodge has to take some wind of out it.
It should take a toll on wielder to swing a big sword as it takes to defend against it by opponents.
Currently even with a bare minimum stamina pool and regen this can spammed very casually until most opponents die. Its way too easy to use. Anyone can do it after little practice on a dummy.

-Remove the snare possibility.

-Limit range to 2-3 meters. 7m is way too much when gap closers exist already. Then kiting should be more easier than its now.

+Buff class spammables to give alternatives to dizzy on stam classes

divnyi

If it's so good, why don't you build a character that use it?

2-3m range. [snip] Try running NB with their 5m spammables, sometimes you can't hit an enemy just because you both stacked movement speeds to the point where even a slight error movement direction means you can't land a hit.

[edited for baiting]

BohnT2

FairUmbrella wrote: »

I have certain points that bothers me with this one skill when playing as magicka classes other than sorcerers. When I play stamina I dont mind this skill because its so much easier to counter.

Range: is still 7m because tooltip doesnt tell that anymore.. If its then its way too long even for a greatsword. Long reach makes it hard to evade for squishy builds in bg environments that are close quarters most of the time.
Paired with gap closers and staminas access to high movement speeds it can be almost impossible to not get hit by that multiple times in a short period no matter what is done to prevent it ie rolling,los,blocking,healing whatever.That ends zero resources pretty quickly and dying.

Multiple powerful effects:stun+ off balance+snare if immune to stun.
Those together are too much already for such a high performing ability.

To take out staminas crown as king of pvp I have some suggestions how to balance dizzy.
-Way higher cost if all functions are kept as they are because now its more than any other equivalent.
Maybe 4k stamina to prevent mindless jamming of this skill and having to think when to apply it in a burst combo
I would also like to see added fatigue mechanism similar to streak and roll dodge has to take some wind of out it.
It should take a toll on wielder to swing a big sword as it takes to defend against it by opponents.
Currently even with a bare minimum stamina pool and regen this can spammed very casually until most opponents die. Its way too easy to use. Anyone can do it after little practice on a dummy.

-Remove the snare possibility.

-Limit range to 2-3 meters. 7m is way too much when gap closers exist already. Then kiting should be more easier than its now.

+Buff class spammables to give alternatives to dizzy on stam classes

No, Dizzying swing is the only useable spammable for 3 stam specs (DK, Warden, Necro) while also being used on Stamplar and Stamsorc either to replace the class spammable (sorc) or to complement it (templar).
The skill isn't unbalanced in any way, shape or form. It's only able to get a stun every 22 seconds due to off balance cooldown and then requires 2 gcds to stun the target.

Reducing the taste range to 2-3 m means effectively removing the skill from the game especially with positions on your client not matching up to what the server sees.

There is absolutely no reason to change the skill and the only thing I agree on in this thread is buffing spammables who are utter trash like skulls or birds and giving stamdk a proper spammable to begin with.

ImSoPro

I agree they should buff other spammables while increasing the cost of dizzying swing and adding the fatigue effect. It really is annoying and kinda funny fighting people who literally spam dizzy dizzy dizzy executioner executioner executioner. No skill at all and it’s why stam classes aren’t very fun to me. I like stam sorc but most of my other stam toons collect dust.

FairUmbrella

divnyi wrote: »

If it's so good, why don't you build a character that use it?

I did several times and it was so easy to delete people with it that I got bored pretty quickly.

When I encounter dizzy users I do a block test and see what they can do. Most just keep spamming it until I die and those are 5 stars and not some newbies.

FairUmbrella

The skill isn't unbalanced in any way, shape or form. It's only able to get a stun every 22 seconds due to off balance cooldown and then requires 2 gcds to stun the target.

*Those two hits to get the stun are very easy and then its already game over before cc break for light armor builds. Why this skill needs a added stun when there are multiple options to choose from?

Reducing the taste range to 2-3 m means effectively removing the skill from the game especially with positions on your client not matching up to what the server sees.

* -> dual wield does just fine and it has even lesser ranges. Lag should not be used as benchmark because it messes everything in general.

BohnT2

FairUmbrella wrote: »

The skill isn't unbalanced in any way, shape or form. It's only able to get a stun every 22 seconds due to off balance cooldown and then requires 2 gcds to stun the target.

*Those two hits to get the stun are very easy and then its already game over before cc break for light armor builds. Why this skill needs a added stun when there are multiple options to choose from?

Reducing the taste range to 2-3 m means effectively removing the skill from the game especially with positions on your client not matching up to what the server sees.

* -> dual wield does just fine and it has even lesser ranges. Lag should not be used as benchmark because it messes everything in general.

If it's over after two dizzying swings then the issue isn't with dizzy but rather the person that's being hit for this much and there is no reason to gut the last viable spammable.

And no DW doesn't do fine on its own and it doesn't have a range of 2-3m, flurry is trash, master Dw has a range of 5m and whirling blades has a radius of 6m.
What I'm talking about has nothing to do with lag, it's an issue that Zos created by shifting all positioning to the server which means what you see on your client is desynced from the actual server and the less range a skill has the more it's getting f'ed by this

Alucardo

It's the only viable spammable outside of those fortunate enough to have class spammables, so no, it can't be nerfed. Bow has nothing, S+B damage skills were gutted, DW (flurry) is a joke in pvp, so really, Dizzying is the only option.

FairUmbrella

Does it justify it being a powerhouse all in one skill that has no real negatives making it easy to use and has immense reward value because its the only one? Imo not

BohnT2

FairUmbrella wrote: »

Does it justify it being a powerhouse all in one skill that has no real negatives making it easy to use and has immense reward value because its the only one? Imo not

It's not a powerhouse tho, the stun is tied to off balance which means people can just hold block for 7 seconds while they're OB and you'll never stun them.
The skill is dodgeable, blockable and is telegraphed for you to react to it.

Compare it to jabs or suprise attack and there is nothing broken or overperforming about it anymore.

FairUmbrella

If it's over after two dizzying swings then the issue isn't with dizzy but rather the person that's being hit for this much and there is no reason to gut the last viable spammable.

When I played on light armor with around 20k resist,2,2k crit resist and 23-24k health in bgs its really fast death and even after blocking, rolling them out when I am against swinging opponent they win 99% of those encounters

I want swing to not be spammable anymore but a tactical power blast which needs far more considerations to use. It would make pvp better when you have to chain more skills together and not ride easy with dizzy

Mag in general has to take more factors into consideration than stamina does in a build to compete against it. Magicka has nothing comparable to what dizzy offers. If they did then stamina players would be demanding changes to it similar as now.

ExistingRug61

Alucardo wrote: »

It's the only viable spammable outside of those fortunate enough to have class spammables, so no, it can't be nerfed. Bow has nothing, S+B damage skills were gutted, DW (flurry) is a joke in pvp, so really, Dizzying is the only option.

Observation: those “non viable” non class stam spammables are basically the same power level as the best non class mag spammable.

BohnT2 wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

I have certain points that bothers me with this one skill when playing as magicka classes other than sorcerers. When I play stamina I dont mind this skill because its so much easier to counter.

Range: is still 7m because tooltip doesnt tell that anymore.. If its then its way too long even for a greatsword. Long reach makes it hard to evade for squishy builds in bg environments that are close quarters most of the time.
Paired with gap closers and staminas access to high movement speeds it can be almost impossible to not get hit by that multiple times in a short period no matter what is done to prevent it ie rolling,los,blocking,healing whatever.That ends zero resources pretty quickly and dying.

Multiple powerful effects:stun+ off balance+snare if immune to stun.
Those together are too much already for such a high performing ability.

To take out staminas crown as king of pvp I have some suggestions how to balance dizzy.
-Way higher cost if all functions are kept as they are because now its more than any other equivalent.
Maybe 4k stamina to prevent mindless jamming of this skill and having to think when to apply it in a burst combo
I would also like to see added fatigue mechanism similar to streak and roll dodge has to take some wind of out it.
It should take a toll on wielder to swing a big sword as it takes to defend against it by opponents.
Currently even with a bare minimum stamina pool and regen this can spammed very casually until most opponents die. Its way too easy to use. Anyone can do it after little practice on a dummy.

-Remove the snare possibility.

-Limit range to 2-3 meters. 7m is way too much when gap closers exist already. Then kiting should be more easier than its now.

+Buff class spammables to give alternatives to dizzy on stam classes

No, Dizzying swing is the only useable spammable for 3 stam specs (DK, Warden, Necro) while also being used on Stamplar and Stamsorc either to replace the class spammable (sorc) or to complement it (templar).
The skill isn't unbalanced in any way, shape or form. It's only able to get a stun every 22 seconds due to off balance cooldown and then requires 2 gcds to stun the target.

Reducing the taste range to 2-3 m means effectively removing the skill from the game especially with positions on your client not matching up to what the server sees.

There is absolutely no reason to change the skill and the only thing I agree on in this thread is buffing spammables who are utter trash like skulls or birds and giving stamdk a proper spammable to begin with.

So let’s say stam dk gets a new spammable, which I agree with you on. That would leave the two classes most dependent on d swing as stam warden and stam necro. Aren’t those two of the three specs that you identified in your the pts thread as needing to be toned down for pvp? (Sure, taking away their spammable is an indirect way to address the issues with those classes of high burst and inherent tankiness/heals, but not having access to a good spammable may force build compromises in those areas).

Ok all that said, I agree that some of the OPs proposed changes are not the right direction at all, like the range reduction would make the skill unusable.

Realistically, I probably agree with the points of those above arguing against a change (that the skill is probably generally fine and doesn’t need a nerf) - it’s just I don’t really agree with the counter arguments they have given.

Alucardo

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Observation: those “non viable” non class stam spammables are basically the same power level as the best non class mag spammable.

Actually the non-viable one I was referring to was stone giant, which is an extremely clumsy ability with the inability to be cancelled. It's yuck.

BohnT2

FairUmbrella wrote: »

When I played on light armor with around 20k resist,2,2k crit resist and 23-24k health in bgs its really fast death and even after blocking, rolling them out when I am against swinging opponent they win 99% of those encounters

Well there's your issue, that's low resistances, low health and malacath is still being used on most specs running dizzy making your crit resistance obsolete in those encounters.

You dying in those situations has nothing to do with dizzy, because your build simply isn't tanky and gets stomped, there is no reason to balance around that.

divnyi

FairUmbrella wrote: »

When I played on light armor with around 20k resist,2,2k crit resist and 23-24k

See, this is where the problem is.

Light armor adds martial damage multiplier. Consider running heavy-light mix.

23-24k is too low to be competitive duelist, consider around 28k. If you are very good at PvP, you can try 25k & heavy-light mix.

Magicka has nothing comparable to what dizzy offers.

Eviscerate.

I want swing to not be spammable anymore but a tactical power blast

So you want to give it even more burst? How is that supposed to fix the issue?

BohnT2

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

It's the only viable spammable outside of those fortunate enough to have class spammables, so no, it can't be nerfed. Bow has nothing, S+B damage skills were gutted, DW (flurry) is a joke in pvp, so really, Dizzying is the only option.

Observation: those “non viable” non class stam spammables are basically the same power level as the best non class mag spammable.

BohnT2 wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

I have certain points that bothers me with this one skill when playing as magicka classes other than sorcerers. When I play stamina I dont mind this skill because its so much easier to counter.

Range: is still 7m because tooltip doesnt tell that anymore.. If its then its way too long even for a greatsword. Long reach makes it hard to evade for squishy builds in bg environments that are close quarters most of the time.
Paired with gap closers and staminas access to high movement speeds it can be almost impossible to not get hit by that multiple times in a short period no matter what is done to prevent it ie rolling,los,blocking,healing whatever.That ends zero resources pretty quickly and dying.

Multiple powerful effects:stun+ off balance+snare if immune to stun.
Those together are too much already for such a high performing ability.

To take out staminas crown as king of pvp I have some suggestions how to balance dizzy.
-Way higher cost if all functions are kept as they are because now its more than any other equivalent.
Maybe 4k stamina to prevent mindless jamming of this skill and having to think when to apply it in a burst combo
I would also like to see added fatigue mechanism similar to streak and roll dodge has to take some wind of out it.
It should take a toll on wielder to swing a big sword as it takes to defend against it by opponents.
Currently even with a bare minimum stamina pool and regen this can spammed very casually until most opponents die. Its way too easy to use. Anyone can do it after little practice on a dummy.

-Remove the snare possibility.

-Limit range to 2-3 meters. 7m is way too much when gap closers exist already. Then kiting should be more easier than its now.

+Buff class spammables to give alternatives to dizzy on stam classes

No, Dizzying swing is the only useable spammable for 3 stam specs (DK, Warden, Necro) while also being used on Stamplar and Stamsorc either to replace the class spammable (sorc) or to complement it (templar).
The skill isn't unbalanced in any way, shape or form. It's only able to get a stun every 22 seconds due to off balance cooldown and then requires 2 gcds to stun the target.

Reducing the taste range to 2-3 m means effectively removing the skill from the game especially with positions on your client not matching up to what the server sees.

There is absolutely no reason to change the skill and the only thing I agree on in this thread is buffing spammables who are utter trash like skulls or birds and giving stamdk a proper spammable to begin with.

So let’s say stam dk gets a new spammable, which I agree with you on. That would leave the two classes most dependent on d swing as stam warden and stam necro. Aren’t those two of the three specs that you identified in your the pts thread as needing to be toned down for pvp? (Sure, taking away their spammable is an indirect way to address the issues with those classes of high burst and inherent tankiness/heals, but not having access to a good spammable may force build compromises in those areas).

Nerfing dizzying swing doesn't fix any of the issues with the two specs as they can still swap to master DW or if you'd nerf everything to the levels of birds and skulls they'd still be unkillable tanks who will either zerg you down or be just like now a waste of time to fight until they pop 500 balorgh vamp ult and try to get kills with their trashy spammables.
That's not helping the game in any way in my eyes

ExistingRug61

Alucardo wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Observation: those “non viable” non class stam spammables are basically the same power level as the best non class mag spammable.

Actually the non-viable one I was referring to was stone giant, which is an extremely clumsy ability with the inability to be cancelled. It's yuck.

Yeah I’m with you that I would love to see a better ability for dk.

My point was that I find the argument “can’t nerf dizzy because all the other stam spammables are worse” a bit funny as those spammables almost directly align power wise with the generic mag spammables.

the1andonlyskwex

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

It's the only viable spammable outside of those fortunate enough to have class spammables, so no, it can't be nerfed. Bow has nothing, S+B damage skills were gutted, DW (flurry) is a joke in pvp, so really, Dizzying is the only option.

Observation: those “non viable” non class stam spammables are basically the same power level as the best non class mag spammable.

Pretty much this.

I don't think Dizzy deserves some of the nerfs proposed by the OP (e.g. the range is fine, and it should absolutely stay a spammable), but it is also one of the best PvP spammables in the game, to the point where it makes other spammables seem "nonviable", when they're really just worse than Dizzy.

If Dizzy suddenly became terrible, I guarantee people would start using (some of) those "nonviable" spammables (and they would be fine).

the1andonlyskwex

Alucardo wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Observation: those “non viable” non class stam spammables are basically the same power level as the best non class mag spammable.

Actually the non-viable one I was referring to was stone giant, which is an extremely clumsy ability with the inability to be cancelled. It's yuck.

There's no way you were referring to Stone Giant.

You said

Alucardo wrote: »

It's the only viable spammable outside of those fortunate enough to have class spammables

Followed by

Alucardo wrote: »

Bow has nothing, S+B damage skills were gutted, DW (flurry) is a joke in pvp, so really, Dizzying is the only option.

It's basically impossible to read that as referring to a DK class spammable (which is more of a CC / debuff skill than a spammable anyway).

Marcus_Aurelius

.

ExistingRug61

BohnT2 wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

It's the only viable spammable outside of those fortunate enough to have class spammables, so no, it can't be nerfed. Bow has nothing, S+B damage skills were gutted, DW (flurry) is a joke in pvp, so really, Dizzying is the only option.

Observation: those “non viable” non class stam spammables are basically the same power level as the best non class mag spammable.

BohnT2 wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

I have certain points that bothers me with this one skill when playing as magicka classes other than sorcerers. When I play stamina I dont mind this skill because its so much easier to counter.

Range: is still 7m because tooltip doesnt tell that anymore.. If its then its way too long even for a greatsword. Long reach makes it hard to evade for squishy builds in bg environments that are close quarters most of the time.
Paired with gap closers and staminas access to high movement speeds it can be almost impossible to not get hit by that multiple times in a short period no matter what is done to prevent it ie rolling,los,blocking,healing whatever.That ends zero resources pretty quickly and dying.

Multiple powerful effects:stun+ off balance+snare if immune to stun.
Those together are too much already for such a high performing ability.

To take out staminas crown as king of pvp I have some suggestions how to balance dizzy.
-Way higher cost if all functions are kept as they are because now its more than any other equivalent.
Maybe 4k stamina to prevent mindless jamming of this skill and having to think when to apply it in a burst combo
I would also like to see added fatigue mechanism similar to streak and roll dodge has to take some wind of out it.
It should take a toll on wielder to swing a big sword as it takes to defend against it by opponents.
Currently even with a bare minimum stamina pool and regen this can spammed very casually until most opponents die. Its way too easy to use. Anyone can do it after little practice on a dummy.

-Remove the snare possibility.

-Limit range to 2-3 meters. 7m is way too much when gap closers exist already. Then kiting should be more easier than its now.

+Buff class spammables to give alternatives to dizzy on stam classes

No, Dizzying swing is the only useable spammable for 3 stam specs (DK, Warden, Necro) while also being used on Stamplar and Stamsorc either to replace the class spammable (sorc) or to complement it (templar).
The skill isn't unbalanced in any way, shape or form. It's only able to get a stun every 22 seconds due to off balance cooldown and then requires 2 gcds to stun the target.

Reducing the taste range to 2-3 m means effectively removing the skill from the game especially with positions on your client not matching up to what the server sees.

There is absolutely no reason to change the skill and the only thing I agree on in this thread is buffing spammables who are utter trash like skulls or birds and giving stamdk a proper spammable to begin with.

So let’s say stam dk gets a new spammable, which I agree with you on. That would leave the two classes most dependent on d swing as stam warden and stam necro. Aren’t those two of the three specs that you identified in your the pts thread as needing to be toned down for pvp? (Sure, taking away their spammable is an indirect way to address the issues with those classes of high burst and inherent tankiness/heals, but not having access to a good spammable may force build compromises in those areas).

Nerfing dizzying swing doesn't fix any of the issues with the two specs as they can still swap to master DW or if you'd nerf everything to the levels of birds and skulls they'd still be unkillable tanks who will either zerg you down or be just like now a waste of time to fight until they pop 500 balorgh vamp ult and try to get kills with their trashy spammables.
That's not helping the game in any way in my eyes

You’re right that it may not necessarily help.

But in my eyes, having the “best” spammable as a generic option is part of the problem of class balance.

In fact, any time the “best” option for any type of skill (be it spammable, execute, delayed burst, heal, defensive etc) is a generic skill the game is unavoidably going to run into balance issues, as it reduces or removes the potential for differences in classes strengths and weaknesses.

Simplistically, it means that you can’t have say one class that has a strong spammable but a weak delayed burst and another with a weak spammable and strong delayed burst. On their own, these two class designs can be balanced even though they have different strengths. However, if there is also a strong generic spammable, suddenly the second of those classes has access to both a strong spammable and a strong delayed burst, whereas the first has a choice of two strong spammables (but only needs one), but still only has a weak delayed burst. And thus the previously balanced classes becomes unbalanced.

We see this currently in the original four classes compared to the newer two - the original four were designed more in this fashion with different strengths and weakness in their types of skills, and at the time generic skills filled gaps but were not frequently the best option. Now we have some generic skills being the best of their type, which is superfluous and doesn’t really help those of the original four classes that were already strong in those areas, and the two newer classes are designed in such a way that their in class strengths cover the areas lacking from strong generic skills, meaning they can build almost without a weak area. Taking away the instances where the best option for a skill type is a generic skill would potentially be a step to equalise the newer classes with the original four in terms of design.

Unfortunately, it seems ZOS is unwilling or unable to approach balance in such a way given their trend towards generic and standardised skills, so it is likely my view on this is somewhat antiquated and no longer feasible in the context of the current game.

the1andonlyskwex

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

It's the only viable spammable outside of those fortunate enough to have class spammables, so no, it can't be nerfed. Bow has nothing, S+B damage skills were gutted, DW (flurry) is a joke in pvp, so really, Dizzying is the only option.

Observation: those “non viable” non class stam spammables are basically the same power level as the best non class mag spammable.

BohnT2 wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

I have certain points that bothers me with this one skill when playing as magicka classes other than sorcerers. When I play stamina I dont mind this skill because its so much easier to counter.

Range: is still 7m because tooltip doesnt tell that anymore.. If its then its way too long even for a greatsword. Long reach makes it hard to evade for squishy builds in bg environments that are close quarters most of the time.
Paired with gap closers and staminas access to high movement speeds it can be almost impossible to not get hit by that multiple times in a short period no matter what is done to prevent it ie rolling,los,blocking,healing whatever.That ends zero resources pretty quickly and dying.

Multiple powerful effects:stun+ off balance+snare if immune to stun.
Those together are too much already for such a high performing ability.

To take out staminas crown as king of pvp I have some suggestions how to balance dizzy.
-Way higher cost if all functions are kept as they are because now its more than any other equivalent.
Maybe 4k stamina to prevent mindless jamming of this skill and having to think when to apply it in a burst combo
I would also like to see added fatigue mechanism similar to streak and roll dodge has to take some wind of out it.
It should take a toll on wielder to swing a big sword as it takes to defend against it by opponents.
Currently even with a bare minimum stamina pool and regen this can spammed very casually until most opponents die. Its way too easy to use. Anyone can do it after little practice on a dummy.

-Remove the snare possibility.

-Limit range to 2-3 meters. 7m is way too much when gap closers exist already. Then kiting should be more easier than its now.

+Buff class spammables to give alternatives to dizzy on stam classes

No, Dizzying swing is the only useable spammable for 3 stam specs (DK, Warden, Necro) while also being used on Stamplar and Stamsorc either to replace the class spammable (sorc) or to complement it (templar).
The skill isn't unbalanced in any way, shape or form. It's only able to get a stun every 22 seconds due to off balance cooldown and then requires 2 gcds to stun the target.

Reducing the taste range to 2-3 m means effectively removing the skill from the game especially with positions on your client not matching up to what the server sees.

There is absolutely no reason to change the skill and the only thing I agree on in this thread is buffing spammables who are utter trash like skulls or birds and giving stamdk a proper spammable to begin with.

So let’s say stam dk gets a new spammable, which I agree with you on. That would leave the two classes most dependent on d swing as stam warden and stam necro. Aren’t those two of the three specs that you identified in your the pts thread as needing to be toned down for pvp? (Sure, taking away their spammable is an indirect way to address the issues with those classes of high burst and inherent tankiness/heals, but not having access to a good spammable may force build compromises in those areas).

Nerfing dizzying swing doesn't fix any of the issues with the two specs as they can still swap to master DW or if you'd nerf everything to the levels of birds and skulls they'd still be unkillable tanks who will either zerg you down or be just like now a waste of time to fight until they pop 500 balorgh vamp ult and try to get kills with their trashy spammables.
That's not helping the game in any way in my eyes

You’re right that it may not necessarily help.

But in my eyes, having the “best” spammable as a generic option is part of the problem of class balance.

In fact, any time the “best” option for any type of skill (be it spammable, execute, delayed burst, heal, defensive etc) is a generic skill the game is unavoidably going to run into balance issues, as it reduces or removes the potential for differences in classes strengths and weaknesses.

Simplistically, it means that you can’t have say one class that has a strong spammable but a weak delayed burst and another with a weak spammable and strong delayed burst. On their own, these two class designs can be balanced even though they have different strengths. However, if there is also a strong generic spammable, suddenly the second of those classes has access to both a strong spammable and a strong delayed burst, whereas the first has a choice of two strong spammables (but only needs one), but still only has a weak delayed burst. And thus the previously balanced classes becomes unbalanced.

We see this currently in the original four classes compared to the newer two - the original four were designed more in this fashion with different strengths and weakness in their types of skills, and at the time generic skills filled gaps but were not frequently the best option. Now we have some generic skills being the best of their type, which is superfluous and doesn’t really help those of the original four classes that were already strong in those areas, and the two newer classes are designed in such a way that their in class strengths cover the areas lacking from strong generic skills, meaning they can build almost without a weak area. Taking away the instances where the best option for a skill type is a generic skill would potentially be a step to equalise the newer classes with the original four in terms of design.

Unfortunately, it seems ZOS is unwilling or unable to approach balance in such a way given their trend towards generic and standardised skills, so it is likely my view on this is somewhat antiquated and no longer feasible in the context of the current game.

While I agree with all of this, it's also worth pointing out that in the original class design, stam builds were expected to rely on weapons for the vast majority of their skills. As ZOS has moved to put more stam skills into class skill lines that concept has sort of fallen by the wayside though.

ZOS really needs to pick a design philosophy and lean into it, instead of maintaining the current split approach. I think they should do one of the following:
1) Rework the original 4 classes to be structured like warden and necromancer, with separate skill lines for each PvE role and tons of stamina morphs, and rework weapon skills to have more magicka options.
2) Rework warden and necromancer to be more like the 4 original classes, with more obvious strengths and weaknesses, more reliance on non-class skills to fill gaps, and fewer stamina morphs.

katorga

Dizzy overloaded? Compared to what? Force Pulse?

Compared to Surprise Attack, Crystal Weapon, or the new Frost Staff clench, it doesn't do enough!

Brrrofski

Yet I barely play Stam DK, Stam Warden (if I do, I go dw) and Stan Necro.

Because dizzying is actually terrible to use.

It barely connects in lag. You just wind up and do nothing.

FairUmbrella

katorga wrote: »

Dizzy overloaded? Compared to what? Force Pulse?

Compared to Surprise Attack, Crystal Weapon, or the new Frost Staff clench, it doesn't do enough!

Surprise attack has pretty much same specs as dizzy btw. Crystal weapon doesnt stunlock but has minor debuff+nice dmg. Its prime example about a good spammable same as wrecking blow.
Dizzy needs to lose at bare minimum the snare and apply the stun perhaps at third hit rather than second to give better chance to avoid it if flanked or hit from behind and have higher cost of stam or make a wrecking blow mag spammable with dizzy specs so its the same for all then.

BohnT2

FairUmbrella wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Dizzy overloaded? Compared to what? Force Pulse?

Compared to Surprise Attack, Crystal Weapon, or the new Frost Staff clench, it doesn't do enough!

Surprise attack has pretty much same specs as dizzy btw. Crystal weapon doesnt stunlock but has minor buff+nice dmg. Its prime example about a good spammable same as wrecking blow.
Dizzy needs to lose at bare minimum the snare and apply the stun perhaps at third hit rather than second to give better chance to avoid it if flanked or hit from behind and have higher cost of stam or make a wrecking blow mag spammable with dizzy specs so its the same for all then.

No, the ability is totally fine.

FairUmbrella

BohnT2 wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

Does it justify it being a powerhouse all in one skill that has no real negatives making it easy to use and has immense reward value because its the only one? Imo not

It's not a powerhouse tho, the stun is tied to off balance which means people can just hold block for 7 seconds while they're OB and you'll never stun them.
The skill is dodgeable, blockable and is telegraphed for you to react to it.

Compare it to jabs or suprise attack and there is nothing broken or overperforming about it anymore.

I dont have issues with jabs or surprise at all.
Those are fine. Hit nb with anything and they run if did not manage to get a gank.

You forget magicka toons has limited pool of stamina or if its decent something else usually had to be sacrificied maybe its gold for tristats as minimum.

You also forget that the moment I let go of block I get hit hard first and second hit is already being animation cancelled via button mash so before I can do something really meaningful to pressure you I got stunned while trying to counter the spam channel.

Dizzy is pretty fast with 0.8 cast time and users are tanky to bone so what I can hit them with doesnt hurt them much.

I know that if I run through them,go circles etc it’s avoided pretty easily but many have major expedition, wild hunt so they can keep up with kites. Its really not so easy to pull of in cramped spaces. Open areas its not a problem if class can get good speed without sacrificing other important aspects of a build

BohnT2

FairUmbrella wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

Does it justify it being a powerhouse all in one skill that has no real negatives making it easy to use and has immense reward value because its the only one? Imo not

It's not a powerhouse tho, the stun is tied to off balance which means people can just hold block for 7 seconds while they're OB and you'll never stun them.
The skill is dodgeable, blockable and is telegraphed for you to react to it.

Compare it to jabs or suprise attack and there is nothing broken or overperforming about it anymore.

I dont have issues with jabs or surprise at all.
Those are fine. Hit nb with anything and they run if did not manage to get a gank.

You forget magicka toons has limited pool of stamina or if its decent something else usually had to be sacrificied maybe its gold for tristats as minimum.

You also forget that the moment I let go of block I get hit hard first and second hit is already being animation cancelled via button mash so before I can do something really meaningful to pressure you I got stunned while trying to counter the spam channel.

Dizzy is pretty fast with 0.8 cast time and users are tanky to bone so what I can hit them with doesnt hurt them much.

I know that if I run through them,go circles etc it’s avoided pretty easily but many have major expedition, wild hunt so they can keep up with kites. Its really not so easy to pull of in cramped spaces. Open areas its not a problem if class can get good speed without sacrificing other important aspects of a build

Dizzying hits you hard because your build isn't tanky and if a build doesn't have enough stam to block and dodge enough then that build is bad and there is no reason to balance skills around suboptimal builds.

Also animation canceling doesn't do anything to shorten the casttime, you might get hit by a med weave when you're off balanced but that is also counterable by simply blocking.

What I get from this discussion is you being upset about a skill when the real issue is your build because Dizzying swing is in no way shape or form overperforming.

xDeusEJRx

FairUmbrella wrote: »

To take out staminas crown as king of pvp I have some suggestions how to balance dizzy.
-Way higher cost if all functions are kept as they are because now its more than any other equivalent.
Maybe 4k stamina to prevent mindless jamming of this skill and having to think when to apply it in a burst combo
I would also like to see added fatigue mechanism similar to streak and roll dodge has to take some wind of out it.
It should take a toll on wielder to swing a big sword as it takes to defend against it by opponents.
Currently even with a bare minimum stamina pool and regen this can spammed very casually until most opponents die. Its way too easy to use. Anyone can do it after little practice on a dummy.

-Remove the snare possibility.

-Limit range to 2-3 meters. 7m is way too much when gap closers exist already. Then kiting should be more easier than its now.

+Buff class spammables to give alternatives to dizzy on stam classes

Don't agree with this at all, proposed changes will literally destroy the ability's usefulness entirely. Asking for balance and trying to completely gimp the ability are two different things. Making it 4k stam will literally make it insanely costly to use, especially considering stam users have to use more stamina than a magic user would. A fatigue mechanic will make it not a spammable anymore, which will mean no one will use it at all. That alone would destroy the ability, no one can afford to use dizzying swing + sprint + roll dodge + block in a fight if it had a fatigue mechanic. Your stamina would literally be gone in less than 10 seconds. Not to mention it's already a blockable/dodgeable ability, so you use up a lot of stam on an ability that might not even connect These are hardly "nerfs", it's completely gimping the ability

The only good thing is buffing class spammables, the only reason why dizzy swing is a meta is because all the class spammables are a joke, DK's don't have a reliable one, stone giant is extremely slow and has a slow travel time making it painfully easy to evade, same as Cutting dive and venom skull. If you compare to spammables mag has access to, it makes no sense why their spammables should be painfully slow. Force pulse/Crushing shock, Impulse, Elemental weapon are all quick and easy to use. Ruining dizzying swing would make half of the stam classes unusable because their class spammables are jokes compared to their magic counterparts.

I play magic and stamina toons, magic more so and even I'm aware that stamina would be devastated if dizzying swing got gutted. Ideally ZoS has to make class spammables actually decent and stop with the slow travel time spammables, rather use snipe as a spammable than poop fist.

FairUmbrella

Just did a team bg as pug with my pve selfish tank warden:plague doctor weapons,body pariah,light armor zoal monster for giggles so that others would have a slight chance to kill it
Healthy jewels,160 weapon dmg each. 43k health with tri food. Blue and green pieces mostly except monster and with random traits,no weapon dmg glyph on weapons. Base impen mostly.

You see its pretty much zero dmg invested highly unoptimized build and still hit 5k dizzies,shalks with 3.5k meager weapon damage. Regens 6-700 each,regen from netch, max stam what food gives and some armor glyphs.
Penetration just 3.3k.

Destroyed everything that had medium,light armor and some heavy armor stam cros as well. None could kite or block it long enough or if tried died after resources ended took just bit longer than insta ko. Those players were similar average skill joe’s as myself at that round.

Against average players dizzy is super strong currently on stam necros,wardens,dks etc those that use it as their prime spammable skill. Majority of players are just average such as myself and only minority in numbers are what could be described as elite levels.

It definitely needs some tuning to make pvp more attractive to those newer players that will absolutely get wrecked by it from those that have had some experience in pvp well before even learning how to counter it.

13 kills,13 assists,4 deaths
I just spammed dizzy and shalks if remembered that still they exist on my bar deleting people left and right, in pairs etc without dying other than being too sloppy. with resources
Artic wind god mode healing with such a health.

Easy mode I have to say, never felt so powerful as any of my mag toons than what I did as stamden. My average level as mag dk is probably 5 kills,8-11deaths no matter if use 5 light or 5 heavy armor or combined and I had to sweat to get those meager scores and actually put effort into the building process.

So I totally disagree that this skill is balanced as it is.
Imagine how hard it hits with a build that actually specs into dmg and in the hands of a player who has around 3k hours of experience to practice rather than some casual who can instantly double his score with scarecrow of a build on a class he rarely even plays.

BohnT2

FairUmbrella wrote: »

Just did a team bg as pug with my tank warden:plague doctor weapons,body pariah,light armor zoal monster for giggles so that others would have a slight chance to kill it
Healthy jewels,weapon dmg. 43k health with tri food

You see its pretty much zero dmg invested build and still hit 5k dizzies,shalks with 3.5k meager weapon damage
Destroyed everything that had medium,light armor and heavy armor stam cros as well. None could kite or block it long enough or if tried died after resources ended took just bit longer than insta ko.

13 kills,13 assists,4 deaths
I just spammed dizzy and shalks most of the time deleting people left and right, in pairs etc without dying other than being sloppy. Artic wind god mode healing with such a health.

Easy mode I have to say, never felt so powerful as any of my mag toons than what I did as stamden. I totally disagree that this skill is balanced as it is.
Imagine how hard it hits with a build that actually specs into dmg.

Did it come to your mind that maybe stamden is the op thing here?

Also a random BG with no screenshot and no additional information has absolutely no value for a discussion.