If it's so good, why don't you build a character that use it?

2-3m range. [snip] Try running NB with their 5m spammables, sometimes you can't hit an enemy just because you both stacked movement speeds to the point where even a slight error movement direction means you can't land a hit.

[edited for baiting]

I agree they should buff other spammables while increasing the cost of dizzying swing and adding the fatigue effect. It really is annoying and kinda funny fighting people who literally spam dizzy dizzy dizzy executioner executioner executioner. No skill at all and it’s why stam classes aren’t very fun to me. I like stam sorc but most of my other stam toons collect dust.

The skill isn't unbalanced in any way, shape or form. It's only able to get a stun every 22 seconds due to off balance cooldown and then requires 2 gcds to stun the target.

*Those two hits to get the stun are very easy and then its already game over before cc break for light armor builds. Why this skill needs a added stun when there are multiple options to choose from?

Reducing the taste range to 2-3 m means effectively removing the skill from the game especially with positions on your client not matching up to what the server sees.

* -> dual wield does just fine and it has even lesser ranges. Lag should not be used as benchmark because it messes everything in general.

Alucardo wrote: »

It's the only viable spammable outside of those fortunate enough to have class spammables, so no, it can't be nerfed. Bow has nothing, S+B damage skills were gutted, DW (flurry) is a joke in pvp, so really, Dizzying is the only option.

Observation: those “non viable” non class stam spammables are basically the same power level as the best non class mag spammable.

BohnT2 wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

I have certain points that bothers me with this one skill when playing as magicka classes other than sorcerers. When I play stamina I dont mind this skill because its so much easier to counter.

Range: is still 7m because tooltip doesnt tell that anymore.. If its then its way too long even for a greatsword. Long reach makes it hard to evade for squishy builds in bg environments that are close quarters most of the time.
Paired with gap closers and staminas access to high movement speeds it can be almost impossible to not get hit by that multiple times in a short period no matter what is done to prevent it ie rolling,los,blocking,healing whatever.That ends zero resources pretty quickly and dying.

Multiple powerful effects:stun+ off balance+snare if immune to stun.
Those together are too much already for such a high performing ability.

To take out staminas crown as king of pvp I have some suggestions how to balance dizzy.
-Way higher cost if all functions are kept as they are because now its more than any other equivalent.
Maybe 4k stamina to prevent mindless jamming of this skill and having to think when to apply it in a burst combo
I would also like to see added fatigue mechanism similar to streak and roll dodge has to take some wind of out it.
It should take a toll on wielder to swing a big sword as it takes to defend against it by opponents.
Currently even with a bare minimum stamina pool and regen this can spammed very casually until most opponents die. Its way too easy to use. Anyone can do it after little practice on a dummy.

-Remove the snare possibility.

-Limit range to 2-3 meters. 7m is way too much when gap closers exist already. Then kiting should be more easier than its now.

+Buff class spammables to give alternatives to dizzy on stam classes

No, Dizzying swing is the only useable spammable for 3 stam specs (DK, Warden, Necro) while also being used on Stamplar and Stamsorc either to replace the class spammable (sorc) or to complement it (templar).
The skill isn't unbalanced in any way, shape or form. It's only able to get a stun every 22 seconds due to off balance cooldown and then requires 2 gcds to stun the target.

Reducing the taste range to 2-3 m means effectively removing the skill from the game especially with positions on your client not matching up to what the server sees.

There is absolutely no reason to change the skill and the only thing I agree on in this thread is buffing spammables who are utter trash like skulls or birds and giving stamdk a proper spammable to begin with.

So let’s say stam dk gets a new spammable, which I agree with you on. That would leave the two classes most dependent on d swing as stam warden and stam necro. Aren’t those two of the three specs that you identified in your the pts thread as needing to be toned down for pvp? (Sure, taking away their spammable is an indirect way to address the issues with those classes of high burst and inherent tankiness/heals, but not having access to a good spammable may force build compromises in those areas).

Ok all that said, I agree that some of the OPs proposed changes are not the right direction at all, like the range reduction would make the skill unusable.

Realistically, I probably agree with the points of those above arguing against a change (that the skill is probably generally fine and doesn’t need a nerf) - it’s just I don’t really agree with the counter arguments they have given.

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

It's the only viable spammable outside of those fortunate enough to have class spammables, so no, it can't be nerfed. Bow has nothing, S+B damage skills were gutted, DW (flurry) is a joke in pvp, so really, Dizzying is the only option.

Observation: those “non viable” non class stam spammables are basically the same power level as the best non class mag spammable.

Pretty much this.

I don't think Dizzy deserves some of the nerfs proposed by the OP (e.g. the range is fine, and it should absolutely stay a spammable), but it is also one of the best PvP spammables in the game, to the point where it makes other spammables seem "nonviable", when they're really just worse than Dizzy.

If Dizzy suddenly became terrible, I guarantee people would start using (some of) those "nonviable" spammables (and they would be fine).

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

It's the only viable spammable outside of those fortunate enough to have class spammables, so no, it can't be nerfed. Bow has nothing, S+B damage skills were gutted, DW (flurry) is a joke in pvp, so really, Dizzying is the only option.

Observation: those “non viable” non class stam spammables are basically the same power level as the best non class mag spammable.

BohnT2 wrote: »

FairUmbrella wrote: »

I have certain points that bothers me with this one skill when playing as magicka classes other than sorcerers. When I play stamina I dont mind this skill because its so much easier to counter.

Range: is still 7m because tooltip doesnt tell that anymore.. If its then its way too long even for a greatsword. Long reach makes it hard to evade for squishy builds in bg environments that are close quarters most of the time.
Paired with gap closers and staminas access to high movement speeds it can be almost impossible to not get hit by that multiple times in a short period no matter what is done to prevent it ie rolling,los,blocking,healing whatever.That ends zero resources pretty quickly and dying.

Multiple powerful effects:stun+ off balance+snare if immune to stun.
Those together are too much already for such a high performing ability.

To take out staminas crown as king of pvp I have some suggestions how to balance dizzy.
-Way higher cost if all functions are kept as they are because now its more than any other equivalent.
Maybe 4k stamina to prevent mindless jamming of this skill and having to think when to apply it in a burst combo
I would also like to see added fatigue mechanism similar to streak and roll dodge has to take some wind of out it.
It should take a toll on wielder to swing a big sword as it takes to defend against it by opponents.
Currently even with a bare minimum stamina pool and regen this can spammed very casually until most opponents die. Its way too easy to use. Anyone can do it after little practice on a dummy.

-Remove the snare possibility.

-Limit range to 2-3 meters. 7m is way too much when gap closers exist already. Then kiting should be more easier than its now.

+Buff class spammables to give alternatives to dizzy on stam classes

No, Dizzying swing is the only useable spammable for 3 stam specs (DK, Warden, Necro) while also being used on Stamplar and Stamsorc either to replace the class spammable (sorc) or to complement it (templar).
The skill isn't unbalanced in any way, shape or form. It's only able to get a stun every 22 seconds due to off balance cooldown and then requires 2 gcds to stun the target.

Reducing the taste range to 2-3 m means effectively removing the skill from the game especially with positions on your client not matching up to what the server sees.

There is absolutely no reason to change the skill and the only thing I agree on in this thread is buffing spammables who are utter trash like skulls or birds and giving stamdk a proper spammable to begin with.

So let’s say stam dk gets a new spammable, which I agree with you on. That would leave the two classes most dependent on d swing as stam warden and stam necro. Aren’t those two of the three specs that you identified in your the pts thread as needing to be toned down for pvp? (Sure, taking away their spammable is an indirect way to address the issues with those classes of high burst and inherent tankiness/heals, but not having access to a good spammable may force build compromises in those areas).

Nerfing dizzying swing doesn't fix any of the issues with the two specs as they can still swap to master DW or if you'd nerf everything to the levels of birds and skulls they'd still be unkillable tanks who will either zerg you down or be just like now a waste of time to fight until they pop 500 balorgh vamp ult and try to get kills with their trashy spammables.
That's not helping the game in any way in my eyes

You’re right that it may not necessarily help.

But in my eyes, having the “best” spammable as a generic option is part of the problem of class balance.

In fact, any time the “best” option for any type of skill (be it spammable, execute, delayed burst, heal, defensive etc) is a generic skill the game is unavoidably going to run into balance issues, as it reduces or removes the potential for differences in classes strengths and weaknesses.

Simplistically, it means that you can’t have say one class that has a strong spammable but a weak delayed burst and another with a weak spammable and strong delayed burst. On their own, these two class designs can be balanced even though they have different strengths. However, if there is also a strong generic spammable, suddenly the second of those classes has access to both a strong spammable and a strong delayed burst, whereas the first has a choice of two strong spammables (but only needs one), but still only has a weak delayed burst. And thus the previously balanced classes becomes unbalanced.

We see this currently in the original four classes compared to the newer two - the original four were designed more in this fashion with different strengths and weakness in their types of skills, and at the time generic skills filled gaps but were not frequently the best option. Now we have some generic skills being the best of their type, which is superfluous and doesn’t really help those of the original four classes that were already strong in those areas, and the two newer classes are designed in such a way that their in class strengths cover the areas lacking from strong generic skills, meaning they can build almost without a weak area. Taking away the instances where the best option for a skill type is a generic skill would potentially be a step to equalise the newer classes with the original four in terms of design.

Unfortunately, it seems ZOS is unwilling or unable to approach balance in such a way given their trend towards generic and standardised skills, so it is likely my view on this is somewhat antiquated and no longer feasible in the context of the current game.

While I agree with all of this, it's also worth pointing out that in the original class design, stam builds were expected to rely on weapons for the vast majority of their skills. As ZOS has moved to put more stam skills into class skill lines that concept has sort of fallen by the wayside though.

ZOS really needs to pick a design philosophy and lean into it, instead of maintaining the current split approach. I think they should do one of the following:
1) Rework the original 4 classes to be structured like warden and necromancer, with separate skill lines for each PvE role and tons of stamina morphs, and rework weapon skills to have more magicka options.
2) Rework warden and necromancer to be more like the 4 original classes, with more obvious strengths and weaknesses, more reliance on non-class skills to fill gaps, and fewer stamina morphs.

Just did a team bg as pug with my pve selfish tank warden:plague doctor weapons,body pariah,light armor zoal monster for giggles so that others would have a slight chance to kill it
Healthy jewels,160 weapon dmg each. 43k health with tri food. Blue and green pieces mostly except monster and with random traits,no weapon dmg glyph on weapons. Base impen mostly.

You see its pretty much zero dmg invested highly unoptimized build and still hit 5k dizzies,shalks with 3.5k meager weapon damage. Regens 6-700 each,regen from netch, max stam what food gives and some armor glyphs.
Penetration just 3.3k.

Destroyed everything that had medium,light armor and some heavy armor stam cros as well. None could kite or block it long enough or if tried died after resources ended took just bit longer than insta ko. Those players were similar average skill joe’s as myself at that round.

Against average players dizzy is super strong currently on stam necros,wardens,dks etc those that use it as their prime spammable skill. Majority of players are just average such as myself and only minority in numbers are what could be described as elite levels.

It definitely needs some tuning to make pvp more attractive to those newer players that will absolutely get wrecked by it from those that have had some experience in pvp well before even learning how to counter it.

13 kills,13 assists,4 deaths
I just spammed dizzy and shalks if remembered that still they exist on my bar deleting people left and right, in pairs etc without dying other than being too sloppy. with resources
Artic wind god mode healing with such a health.

Easy mode I have to say, never felt so powerful as any of my mag toons than what I did as stamden. My average level as mag dk is probably 5 kills,8-11deaths no matter if use 5 light or 5 heavy armor or combined and I had to sweat to get those meager scores and actually put effort into the building process.

So I totally disagree that this skill is balanced as it is.
Imagine how hard it hits with a build that actually specs into dmg and in the hands of a player who has around 3k hours of experience to practice rather than some casual who can instantly double his score with scarecrow of a build on a class he rarely even plays.