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12 person group limit? Whaaaaaat?

  • Agalloch
    Agalloch
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    This is not a bashing message..but how are other MMOs can handle groups of more than 24 members? All MMOs have server calculations...but probably most of them have a better coding and better servers.
  • DerAlleinTiger
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    Agalloch wrote: »
    This is not a bashing message..but how are other MMOs can handle groups of more than 24 members? All MMOs have server calculations...but probably most of them have a better coding and better servers.

    This is what I don't get. They've already told us that this year they're updating their servers and getting new ones. Why the hell are we making these kinds of minor performance "improvements" before that's done? Why are we jumping the gun on something like this when we should be waiting to see how the performance is once the new servers are fully installed and running? One would think THAT will be the biggest performance bump possible. Wait until then, and then take a look at the performance issues that still exist and measure up: Is the performance boost worth the cost of whatever changes need to be made? Are the performance issues, after the server update, serious enough for most players to even notice them?

    Perhaps the biggest one to ask: Are the performance issues under circumstances where performance issues should be expected? I get concerned if I start seeing performance issues in small group content like 4-man dungeons and battlegrounds, or solo questing and mat farming. What I don't get concerned about is seeing a performance issue while riding a 50+ man dolmen train in the Alik'r. I EXPECT less performance there and am NOT willing to give up functionality to "fix" those issues.
  • JoeCapricorn
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    I've been in 24-person groups many times and outside of Cyrodiil I have not experienced noticeable skill delay.

    The thing is, it happens in Cyrodiil even when I am not in a group. Lately mostly in Grey Host.
    I simp for vampire lords and Glemyos Wildhorn
  • TequilaFire
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    Of course new servers won't fix everything, but how can next gen silicon not improve things?
    Certainly more than removing torch bugs from Cyrodiil. lol
    Edit - It also depends if they are switching providers and new across the board or just replacing end of life components with equivalent new hardware.
    Edited by TequilaFire on May 18, 2021 6:44PM
  • Jazraena
    Jazraena
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    I'd just like to note that we had a lovely crossguild RP event the other night on PC-EU - a talent show. Open World in the Rift. Within minutes, we filled up the first group and had to form a second; peak participation was somewhere around 35 to 40.

    I expect the same to happen next week during the Night of Lights in Solitude. Even more groups is going to make any OOC communication a pain, and this is not that rare an event.
  • LoneStar2911
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    I hope we’re all somehow wrong about this, and limiting groups to 12 will give performance an incredible boost. And we’ll all just be so thankful that we no longer complain about our groups being limited to 12.
    I mean, we can dream. :(
  • BlueRaven
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    Is it possible to have addions that can in some way replicate larger groups? Tracking people, one common text box, etc? Is that a possible fix?
  • JoeCapricorn
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    ZOS is turning ESO from an MMORPG to just an ORPG
    I simp for vampire lords and Glemyos Wildhorn
  • LoneStar2911
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    I guess we (PC) will find out in 7 days how much this actually sucks. I hope the devs have a gameplay stream soon and tell us why they made this change.
  • Elsonso
    Elsonso
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    Varana wrote: »
    They already said it was "for performance reasons".
    So scratching the bottom of the barrel for a few single FPS in circumstances where performance doesn't actually matter all that much, just to say "they've improved performance".

    I am pretty sure that "performance" in this case is not "FPS". It is probably "latency" more than anything, and probably when the companions are being used. I am convinced that the group reduction is really just so that companions can be used when the player is grouped. Performance related to server-side calculations for companion AI.


    "Tamriel One was fun and engaging, Tamriel Once .... not so much." - Jaraal, March 9, 2022


    Elsonso by the numbers... 8 years. 4 accounts. 3 2 platforms. 19 Chapter purchases. 58000 Crowns purchased. 3 1 ESO Plus subscriptions. 7800 hours in game.

    Twitter: https://twitter.com/ElsonsoJannus
  • Jazraena
    Jazraena
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    It's not about FPS or any other performance on your screen, as I understand, but server-side calculations.

    Which, while harder to gauge, is still miserable, and absolutely unacceptable without some sort of replacement communication option across more than 1 guild and 12 people.
  • JanTanhide
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    Game use to be able to handle groups of 100. As time went on player base increased, proc sets dominate and the server hardware got older and older.

    Servers need to be upgraded/replaced or at least change the game engine to an engine that can handle everything.

    Changing to a limit of 12 just means there will be more 12 person groups. Won't change a thing as far as server loading goes.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    JanTanhide wrote: »
    Game use to be able to handle groups of 100. As time went on player base increased, proc sets dominate and the server hardware got older and older.

    Servers need to be upgraded/replaced or at least change the game engine to an engine that can handle everything.

    Changing to a limit of 12 just means there will be more 12 person groups. Won't change a thing as far as server loading goes.

    I got into this in more detail above, but it does lower the amount of in-group communication. The in-group data going from 12 player to 12 players IS less than that of 24 players going to 24 players.

    The caveat to that is that the Cyrodiil has been at 12 player groups since Markarth, which ZOS said was for behavioral reasons not for performance, and while the in-group communication may be smaller, this really doesn't do anything to the most visible source of performance issues: having lots of players in the same place.
    Edited by VaranisArano on May 25, 2021 1:23PM
  • Jaraal
    Jaraal
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    JanTanhide wrote: »
    Game use to be able to handle groups of 100. As time went on player base increased, proc sets dominate and the server hardware got older and older.

    Servers need to be upgraded/replaced or at least change the game engine to an engine that can handle everything.

    Changing to a limit of 12 just means there will be more 12 person groups. Won't change a thing as far as server loading goes.

    I got into this in more detail above, but it does lower the amount of in-group communication. The in-group data going from 12 player to 12 players IS less than that of 24 players going to 24 players.

    But the result will be instead of in-group communication among 24, now they will be using zone chat to get the information out, and increasing the communication to 100-200 instead of 24.

    I'm not following the reasoning here.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • Exquisition
    Exquisition
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    Varana wrote: »
    They already said it was "for performance reasons".
    So scratching the bottom of the barrel for a few single FPS in circumstances where performance doesn't actually matter all that much, just to say "they've improved performance".

    I am pretty sure that "performance" in this case is not "FPS". It is probably "latency" more than anything, and probably when the companions are being used. I am convinced that the group reduction is really just so that companions can be used when the player is grouped. Performance related to server-side calculations for companion AI.


    I rather have no companions and being able to group up with 24 ppl then having companions and not be able to group up anymore. The stupid groupsize reduction is absolutely horrible and will make guild events super hard to organise and this will result in having less fun.
    of course, people having fun while playing ESO, doesn't pay the bill...
    - - GM of Guiild For The Soloiist - -
  • Earthewen
    Earthewen
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    Rykoth wrote: »
    Are we really going with a cap on groups outside of Cyrodiil? Bad idea. Bad bad BAD idea. I get it might help some performance but there's a lot of folks who make use of 24 player groups. Yes, roleplayers, but others as well.

    Loving most of the notes but this would be a yuge mistake to keep this change. Yuge mistake.

    It was a bad idea inside cyro as well. Nothing changed in the amount of lag, which was how the reduction was pitched. They said it changed our behavior, but they never said what behavior it was. People faction zerg more than ever now, making lag even worse ... shall I go on?
  • Elsonso
    Elsonso
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    JanTanhide wrote: »
    Game use to be able to handle groups of 100. As time went on player base increased, proc sets dominate and the server hardware got older and older.

    Servers need to be upgraded/replaced or at least change the game engine to an engine that can handle everything.

    Bolded. I doubt server hardware will fix this. They really need to figure out how to do the server software better.
    "Tamriel One was fun and engaging, Tamriel Once .... not so much." - Jaraal, March 9, 2022


    Elsonso by the numbers... 8 years. 4 accounts. 3 2 platforms. 19 Chapter purchases. 58000 Crowns purchased. 3 1 ESO Plus subscriptions. 7800 hours in game.

    Twitter: https://twitter.com/ElsonsoJannus
  • Jaraal
    Jaraal
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    On the face of it, ZOS is making a pretty serious reduction in their data backend.

    The caveat with that is, as I said, that this backend change didn't make a big difference in Cyrodiil, and it really doesn't touch the performance problems that happen when lots and lots of players show up in the same placed without being grouped up.

    That's what I don't understand. Since they stated that the reduction in group size in laggy Cyrodiil had no significant impact on performance, then how is it magically going to improve perfomance in a relatively smooth running PvE situation?

    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • Elsonso
    Elsonso
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    On the face of it, ZOS is making a pretty serious reduction in their data backend.

    The caveat with that is, as I said, that this backend change didn't make a big difference in Cyrodiil, and it really doesn't touch the performance problems that happen when lots and lots of players show up in the same placed without being grouped up.

    That's what I don't understand. Since they stated that the reduction in group size in laggy Cyrodiil had no significant impact on performance, then how is it magically going to improve perfomance in a relatively smooth running PvE situation?

    Simply because the two environments/scenarios are not the same. There is more to the group size than what is apparent from our perspective, and what happened with PVP simply isn't the same as with PVE.
    "Tamriel One was fun and engaging, Tamriel Once .... not so much." - Jaraal, March 9, 2022


    Elsonso by the numbers... 8 years. 4 accounts. 3 2 platforms. 19 Chapter purchases. 58000 Crowns purchased. 3 1 ESO Plus subscriptions. 7800 hours in game.

    Twitter: https://twitter.com/ElsonsoJannus
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