The Lost Depths DLC and Update 35 base game patch are now available to test on the PTS! Read the full patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts

12 person group limit? Whaaaaaat?

  • indigojulze
    indigojulze
    Soul Shriven
    Must say I am not happy about this.
    I do not see who benefits from this change?
    I run this game on a Frankenstein rig with a cracked disc, what performance issues?

    Are the pvp and console baby's crying over 59 fps with 400 players on screen at the same time?

    Reduce the size, FIX your code, increase the size again.

    Please please let this be a stop-gap measure while you fix the real problem.

    "What you put out in the world you get back.
  • Lord_Bashu
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    Yea this is not on PvP, this does nothing to help performance. Also if Cyro not on a different server then.. well Huston..i.e. cyro should not impact any other server.
  • Elsonso
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    I will say I think the "performance" reason is a load of bologna because groups have been limited to 24 since launch

    Putting it bluntly, I am fairly sure that the group reduction from 24 to 12 is to improve performance so that they can add companions, which in their testing, hurt performance in large group situations.
    2022: Qu'ils mangent de la brioche
    "Tamriel One was fun and engaging, Tamriel Once .... not so much." - Jaraal, March 9, 2022
    "Stop treating the combat in this game as some sort of lab experiment." - code65536, July 18, 2022
    This year, the theme seems to be that the game should encourage players to leave for other games. Update 33: Tamriel Once.. one and done. Update 34: Tales of Torpor... play this instead of the game. Update 35: Pool Noodle combat... go play Tales of Torpor.

    Best summary of Update 35: "SAY NO TO MUSTARD IN YOUR DOUGHNUT !" - pklemming, August 9, 2022.

    Twitter: https://twitter.com/ElsonsoJannus
  • Arunei
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    Ironically, roleplayers are who spend the most on the game. So this move will only hurt zos financially. XD

    no it wont, they will accept it and deal with it.

    So you are telling me if 100 people quit over this (not an outrageous idea) that it won't hurt the company's bottom line, when those are some of the people who spend the most on the game?
    To be clear, I don't rp, or run in groups bigger than 12 in pve, or pay for eso+, or buy crowns. I just think this is a bad idea and one that will hurt the company financially.

    As an RPer, I can tell you that we aren't exactly the people who spend the most money. None of us but ZOS knows what "group" of players spends the most, but I'm fairly certain a lot of people who spend a bunch on this game aren't RPers. And even if they are, one hundred players quitting is a drop of water in an ocean considering the thousands and thousands of players who are in the game. Those 100 people might not even be ones buying stuff from the store to begin with, regardless of whether they RP a lot or just play the content.

    Don't get me wrong, this change is absolutely bass-ackwards imo, because...instead of having a larger group sending data to the server and all, aren't you just going to know have a bunch of smaller groups sending roughly the same amount of data at a time? A group of 20 players communicates more data than two groups of 12 and 8? It doesn't make any sense to me, and granted I know nothing of coding so maybe this really is the case, but it feels like an excuse. Performance seems to be the excuse for a lot of stuff, and yet we rarely see performance improving.

    You shouldn't have to make your game more restricting and complicated for it to run better, ZOS.

    EDIT: Accidentally a word.
    Edited by Arunei on May 15, 2021 2:17PM
  • Sanctum74
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    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    Elsonso wrote: »
    I will say I think the "performance" reason is a load of bologna because groups have been limited to 24 since launch

    Putting it bluntly, I am fairly sure that the group reduction from 24 to 12 is to improve performance so that they can add companions, which in their testing, hurt performance in large group situations.

    Then it would make sense to stop adding things that ruin performance instead of taking away things that people enjoy and don’t affect performance.

    They can't. Extra features like Companions are the only reason that Chapters are sold for cash and not included in ESO+, instead of being treated like the DLC that they really are. ZOS cannot stop making new features because they've painted themselves into that corner.

    It's pretty clear to me that the Companions are decidedly underbaked, neither meeting the hopes of the Devs as initially described to players nor performing well in terms of game performance, judging by the emergency testing on the PTS that might further reduce the usefulness of Companions.

    But there's no way that ZOS can say "Hey, we're sorry, Companions clearly need more time in the oven. We need to wait until Q3 or Q4." They've already marketed and sold Blackwood. They are going to roll out Companions, no matter how flawed and no matter how much they have to cripple core game systems like group size in order to make room for them. Then hope and pray they can fix the most reviled aspects by Q3 and Q4 in order to make up for bad press on release.

    I don't know if Companions is the main drive for the reduction in group size...but not releasing Companions is not an option for ZOS. They have to preserve their revenue stream from new features and Chapters, even at the expense of core gameplay for social groups of all types.

    I agree to a point, but at the very least they could have excluded companions from groups instead of excluding actual paying customers. The group size change doesn’t affect me directly since I mainly play solo in cyrodill, but it has affected the campaign since many players left since the change.

    It’s a shame to see so many day 1 players leave, but it also affects new players since they are no longer able to get in a group so they leave pvp discouraged. Now we are going to see the same thing happen to pve. People already rage about fake roles in dungeons and this will just exacerbate that as well as affecting rpg, dolmen, auctions, cat farmers, guild events, etc.

  • Elsonso
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    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    Elsonso wrote: »
    I will say I think the "performance" reason is a load of bologna because groups have been limited to 24 since launch

    Putting it bluntly, I am fairly sure that the group reduction from 24 to 12 is to improve performance so that they can add companions, which in their testing, hurt performance in large group situations.

    Then it would make sense to stop adding things that ruin performance instead of taking away things that people enjoy and don’t affect performance.

    Yes, it would. It is possible that they have hit some sort of performance cap in some areas of the game. Every new system we get in that area will now have to come with a concession so that performance remains relatively the same.
    make up for bad press on release.

    They are not going to have bad press on release because of a reduction in group size. They will have bad press on release due to the sheer number of bugs and things that are broken on launch day, but won't start to be fixed for two weeks because that is their patch schedule.



    2022: Qu'ils mangent de la brioche
    "Tamriel One was fun and engaging, Tamriel Once .... not so much." - Jaraal, March 9, 2022
    "Stop treating the combat in this game as some sort of lab experiment." - code65536, July 18, 2022
    This year, the theme seems to be that the game should encourage players to leave for other games. Update 33: Tamriel Once.. one and done. Update 34: Tales of Torpor... play this instead of the game. Update 35: Pool Noodle combat... go play Tales of Torpor.

    Best summary of Update 35: "SAY NO TO MUSTARD IN YOUR DOUGHNUT !" - pklemming, August 9, 2022.

    Twitter: https://twitter.com/ElsonsoJannus
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    Elsonso wrote: »
    I will say I think the "performance" reason is a load of bologna because groups have been limited to 24 since launch

    Putting it bluntly, I am fairly sure that the group reduction from 24 to 12 is to improve performance so that they can add companions, which in their testing, hurt performance in large group situations.

    Then it would make sense to stop adding things that ruin performance instead of taking away things that people enjoy and don’t affect performance.

    Yes, it would. It is possible that they have hit some sort of performance cap in some areas of the game. Every new system we get in that area will now have to come with a concession so that performance remains relatively the same.
    make up for bad press on release.

    They are not going to have bad press on release because of a reduction in group size. They will have bad press on release due to the sheer number of bugs and things that are broken on launch day, but won't start to be fixed for two weeks because that is their patch schedule.



    I was referring to bad press about Companions, and gradually adjusting the most reviled aspects of Companions, not the reduction in group size.
  • Elsonso
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    Elsonso wrote: »
    I will say I think the "performance" reason is a load of bologna because groups have been limited to 24 since launch

    Putting it bluntly, I am fairly sure that the group reduction from 24 to 12 is to improve performance so that they can add companions, which in their testing, hurt performance in large group situations.

    Then it would make sense to stop adding things that ruin performance instead of taking away things that people enjoy and don’t affect performance.

    Yes, it would. It is possible that they have hit some sort of performance cap in some areas of the game. Every new system we get in that area will now have to come with a concession so that performance remains relatively the same.
    make up for bad press on release.

    They are not going to have bad press on release because of a reduction in group size. They will have bad press on release due to the sheer number of bugs and things that are broken on launch day, but won't start to be fixed for two weeks because that is their patch schedule.



    I was referring to bad press about Companions, and gradually adjusting the most reviled aspects of Companions, not the reduction in group size.

    Companions will generally be positive news, though. It is like housing, with fewer limitations and more utility.
    2022: Qu'ils mangent de la brioche
    "Tamriel One was fun and engaging, Tamriel Once .... not so much." - Jaraal, March 9, 2022
    "Stop treating the combat in this game as some sort of lab experiment." - code65536, July 18, 2022
    This year, the theme seems to be that the game should encourage players to leave for other games. Update 33: Tamriel Once.. one and done. Update 34: Tales of Torpor... play this instead of the game. Update 35: Pool Noodle combat... go play Tales of Torpor.

    Best summary of Update 35: "SAY NO TO MUSTARD IN YOUR DOUGHNUT !" - pklemming, August 9, 2022.

    Twitter: https://twitter.com/ElsonsoJannus
  • Viana
    Viana
    Soul Shriven
    While I appreciate the strive for better performance, I feel that this is spoiling the ship for a ha'port of tar. There should be other ways to improve performance than hindering players to play together in a game that is meant to be a multiplayer game.

    That said, if reducing the group size is really necessary, please add a possibility for closed chat with larger groups of players that can replace the current functionality of group chat. This is what players need in the end to enjoy the game together and a means to chat with a larger group of people without spamming world chat is urgently needed to keep the current quality of gameplay for several sub-communities of the ESO player base - as can be seen by the length and popularity of this chat.
  • Elsonso
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    Poor Gina. They tell her what to post, and guess who gets to look bad when the stories conflict?
    Elsonso wrote: »
    If Gina trots out and says, "Yup, group size to 12 is because of performance", will you nod with understanding and wander off in search of some other bit of trivia? Will you dig in and demand more? Argue? Dispute the claim? Rage?

    So, dispute the claim.

    2022: Qu'ils mangent de la brioche
    "Tamriel One was fun and engaging, Tamriel Once .... not so much." - Jaraal, March 9, 2022
    "Stop treating the combat in this game as some sort of lab experiment." - code65536, July 18, 2022
    This year, the theme seems to be that the game should encourage players to leave for other games. Update 33: Tamriel Once.. one and done. Update 34: Tales of Torpor... play this instead of the game. Update 35: Pool Noodle combat... go play Tales of Torpor.

    Best summary of Update 35: "SAY NO TO MUSTARD IN YOUR DOUGHNUT !" - pklemming, August 9, 2022.

    Twitter: https://twitter.com/ElsonsoJannus
  • Jaraal
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    Poor Gina. They tell her what to post, and guess who gets to look bad when the stories conflict?
    Elsonso wrote: »
    If Gina trots out and says, "Yup, group size to 12 is because of performance", will you nod with understanding and wander off in search of some other bit of trivia? Will you dig in and demand more? Argue? Dispute the claim? Rage?

    So, dispute the claim.

    To what end? ZOS is gonna do what ZOS is gonna do regardless of whether it makes sense or is in direct conflict with earlier statements. They could tell us that they are reducing group size to 12 because the moon is made of green cheese and it wouldn't matter one bit.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • Elsonso
    Elsonso
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    Elsonso wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    Poor Gina. They tell her what to post, and guess who gets to look bad when the stories conflict?
    Elsonso wrote: »
    If Gina trots out and says, "Yup, group size to 12 is because of performance", will you nod with understanding and wander off in search of some other bit of trivia? Will you dig in and demand more? Argue? Dispute the claim? Rage?

    So, dispute the claim.

    To what end? ZOS is gonna do what ZOS is gonna do regardless of whether it makes sense or is in direct conflict with earlier statements. They could tell us that they are reducing group size to 12 because the moon is made of green cheese and it wouldn't matter one bit.

    No, I mean that this is the approach you are already taking.
    2022: Qu'ils mangent de la brioche
    "Tamriel One was fun and engaging, Tamriel Once .... not so much." - Jaraal, March 9, 2022
    "Stop treating the combat in this game as some sort of lab experiment." - code65536, July 18, 2022
    This year, the theme seems to be that the game should encourage players to leave for other games. Update 33: Tamriel Once.. one and done. Update 34: Tales of Torpor... play this instead of the game. Update 35: Pool Noodle combat... go play Tales of Torpor.

    Best summary of Update 35: "SAY NO TO MUSTARD IN YOUR DOUGHNUT !" - pklemming, August 9, 2022.

    Twitter: https://twitter.com/ElsonsoJannus
  • DocFrost72
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    DocFrost72 wrote: »
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6989406#Comment_6989406

    From that thread;
    Hi all,

    Just posted an update in the main stickied thread, but wanted to cross-post here as well for extra visibility.

    As we approach the end of our scheduled tests, we’ve determined that we’d like to run at least two more tests to gather additional data, which are outlined below. Our goal here is to see how a combination of changes from previous tests affect the performance, as we’ve found they have not had a significant impact individually.
    October 19 - 26:
    Shared global AoE cooldown with a 3 second timer
    Group size limited to 12 in Cyrodiil
    Ally-targeted abilities only applied to group members
    October 26 – November 2:
    Shared global AoE cooldown with a 3 second timer
    Group size limited to 12 in Cyrodiil
    Ally-targeted abilities only applied to group members
    Global ramping cost per successive AoE cast by 50%/100%/150%
    Regen decrease per successive AoE cast by 33%/66%/99%
    Our current plan is to disable all tests and double AP once Update 28 launches for PC on November 2. At that time, we’ll need to take some time to analyze the data collected from all the tests and determine next steps. Once we have a better idea of what that entails, we’ll let everyone know.

    I'm not sure what to believe, now.

    Poor Gina. They tell her what to post, and guess who gets to look bad when the stories conflict?

    This is my big concern, too. Gina isn't the one making decisions, and she's the one in here interacting with us. Not a good combo, especially if people don't know she's not responsible for the changes they don't like.
    "You don't drive a car from the olden days because of its stellar performance. You don't reminisce about an old videogame for its mind blowing graphics. You don't remember the taste of the first meal you shared with your loved ones. Sometimes, it's as simple as the feeling it gives you.

    Anyway, that's why I built this hybrid."
    Kevin Silverthorn: Stamplar bosmer.
    Vehk Shadowthorn: Stamiknight imperial.
    Hailie Silverthorn: Magblade Khajiit.
  • Olauron
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    The real question is where exactly there will be the performance increase when using two 12-player character groups instead of one 24-player character group.
    Character visuals, positioning, skill and set visuals, health transmitted to other players? No, just the same.
    Combat effects? With the reversal of group-only effects the answer is no.
    Emotes and mementos? Again, just the same.
    Text chat? Bingo. Then again, why not start with the zone chat? It should be much more stressful for performance than group chat.
    The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
  • JoeCapricorn
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    It's back-end stuff like the health level of each group member, but still I don't see how that can affect performance. Some add-ons are able to read more data from each group member as well, such as what loot they acquire.

    It's a bologna excuse.
    I simp for vampire lords and Glemyos Wildhorn
  • Elsonso
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    Olauron wrote: »
    The real question is where exactly there will be the performance increase when using two 12-player character groups instead of one 24-player character group.
    Character visuals, positioning, skill and set visuals, health transmitted to other players? No, just the same.
    Combat effects? With the reversal of group-only effects the answer is no.
    Emotes and mementos? Again, just the same.
    Text chat? Bingo. Then again, why not start with the zone chat? It should be much more stressful for performance than group chat.

    We don't know enough about how the backend systems work to be able to itemize things and then cross them off like you are doing.

    However, we do know that the information processed between group members is not exactly the same as what you get just by being next to them, ungrouped. I believe that they have said as much when talking about Cyrodiil performance.
    2022: Qu'ils mangent de la brioche
    "Tamriel One was fun and engaging, Tamriel Once .... not so much." - Jaraal, March 9, 2022
    "Stop treating the combat in this game as some sort of lab experiment." - code65536, July 18, 2022
    This year, the theme seems to be that the game should encourage players to leave for other games. Update 33: Tamriel Once.. one and done. Update 34: Tales of Torpor... play this instead of the game. Update 35: Pool Noodle combat... go play Tales of Torpor.

    Best summary of Update 35: "SAY NO TO MUSTARD IN YOUR DOUGHNUT !" - pklemming, August 9, 2022.

    Twitter: https://twitter.com/ElsonsoJannus
  • Elvenheart
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    I have an idea...Dinner Party! <jazz hands>
  • Olauron
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    It's back-end stuff like the health level of each group member, but still I don't see how that can affect performance. Some add-ons are able to read more data from each group member as well, such as what loot they acquire.
    Health is already shown even to non-grouped players, so it should be something else. Magicka and stamina? I don't remember whether it is possible to turn it on for all allies around.

    As for the loot, it is good observation, yet I have two thoughts about it.
    1) During the "kill the dragons" event I faced a number of performance issues, but all those were during the fight with the dragon, and the more movements (position changing) and the higher the combined APM were, the worse was the performance. Once the dragon was dead, performance was ideal, even though players were looting the corpse. Movement, skills and LAs were the problem (and maybe - maybe - the dragon behaviour procedure requires more time to calculate the next "move" when there are more targets around, but this is not affected by the group size again).
    2) Anything that is not shown to the player in the default UI is useless for those who don't use add-ons (but they at least theoretically can make use of it) and for console players.
    Elsonso wrote: »
    Olauron wrote: »
    The real question is where exactly there will be the performance increase when using two 12-player character groups instead of one 24-player character group.
    Character visuals, positioning, skill and set visuals, health transmitted to other players? No, just the same.
    Combat effects? With the reversal of group-only effects the answer is no.
    Emotes and mementos? Again, just the same.
    Text chat? Bingo. Then again, why not start with the zone chat? It should be much more stressful for performance than group chat.

    We don't know enough about how the backend systems work to be able to itemize things and then cross them off like you are doing.

    However, we do know that the information processed between group members is not exactly the same as what you get just by being next to them, ungrouped. I believe that they have said as much when talking about Cyrodiil performance.
    Well, the question is how much is actually needed. If (if, because there is no data for us as players) existing features are cut because of something that simply can't be used (like loot transmitting from example above), it is hardly fair.
    The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
  • merevie
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    It will suck about 8 months.
    Then it won't. Going by PvP...

    -people value the spot -they turn up on time, they're prepared and you don't have 6 of them off afk needing catching up later

    -voice coms are more relaxed -people can talk without it being impossible/they get to know each other

    -the people who rock up late and have to find new friends are motivated to scroll through their friend's list -guilds grow -people step up and run things which takes pressure of crowns

    -stuff takes much less time to do/less goes wrong

    24 people is impersonal - 12 not so much - it'll grow on you, maybe
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