Why only 6 abilities at a time?!!

SnidgetAsphodel · April 2014

I hate to be the person to say it but... go back to WoW.

kyuven · April 2014

Sarenia wrote: »

We don't need another Everquest 2 with 50 skill buttons, 25 clicky buttons, and 15 macros all on the screen at the same time.

Damn you beat me to it. Yeah, EverQuest 2 is almost hyperbole in how many buttons you need.
I had 4 12 button hotbars for both of my lvl 95s cluttering the screen at any given time. I'll take the 12 total from ESO any day.

Exarch · April 2014

I am entirely in favor of game design that engages the player by requiring meaningful decisions, but this limited a number of available actions seems to me to go past that to the point of being limiting; selecting actions ahead of time is a strategic decision, not a tactical one, and there's no means of gathering information about what upcoming encounters might require, short of dying for lack of that requirement and coming back. It seems likely that this will encourage people to only ever select their most generally applicable skills, discouraging experimentation with situational abilities. It also seems, though this may well change later in the game, to create a lack of synergy between abilities, other than abilities that apply a vulnerable state and abilities that leverage that state; the tactical choice of ability use is entirely based around resource management.

It's obviously nowhere near as bad as the doomsayers make out, it certainly won't "destroy the game", as the OP would have it, but I also don't think the system as it stands has the positive aspects that it's defenders claim. Personally I think it two more slots would be preferable, based on my experience with its obvious comparison The Secret World; currently it feels more like the system in Neverwinter Online, where it works because that game never set out to be much more than Gauntlet on steroids.

Jeremy · April 2014

Brimsurfer wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

It has nothing to do with consoles.

It's to force you to use strategy in your loadouts and to help create unique builds. It prevents you from having a screen full of fancy looking abilities that you never use. It's a design choice, and it's a dead horse. Kindly stop beating it.

With due respect, we will have more strategy and options if we had the whole repertoire available to us. Having six abilities at a time, severely restricts the strategy or strategy choices.

If its a design choice then its a bad design choice and it will destroy the game.

Give us a big customizable toolbar and let us use all abilities ......and like I said anyone who likes to play with only 6 abilities at a time, and likes the current design, can slot only six abilities in that toolbar, but most of us would have freedom to use our skill repertoire as we see fit.

You missed his/her point I think.

What the current design does is force you to make hard choices about what skills you want to prioritize and use. That is how it encourages more strategy.

In other words, it's strategy on how you build your character rather than just how you play them. And that's an element that has been sorely lacking in many recent MMORPGs.

Crumpy · April 2014

Why is it more strategic to stop and change skills than choose to press a different button?

Again, I say, it's due to the fact that the game is going to be multiplatform with consoles. That is it. But, read all the 'strategic value' into it that you want to.

knightblaster · April 2014

Guild Wars 2 was similar in this specific aspect -- limited abilities, based on weapon types equipped and weapon swapping generating a different, limited, hotbar. Of course, much more limited than ESO, which allows you to create your own, limited, bar, rather than having it simply determined by your equipped weapon, and GW2 also had a few more unlockable ones as the character leveled, but it was still a very limited system compared to that other big MMO. And GW2 is not a console game.

It's a design choice with the idea of creating more tactical decisions on the loadout level, while also a playing field more level (such that people who play their keybinds like a classically trained pianist don't have a huge advantage over other players, since it's really just a few buttons we're talking about).

It won't be changed, because opening up all the skills would require a lot of balancing changes to the content of the game -- content which is not designed with the idea of the player having all the skills available.

Laura · April 2014

ah geez not this *** again.

yeah lets let everyone use all there abilities and be a mage/rogue/warrior/tank/dei-god hybrid.

there is a reason it is what it is and it requires strategy. I prefer it STRONGLY to having a billion buttons in other mmos.

taking a line and correcting it from your original post

Lets (not) turn this game into FUN. WoW

TheRedMage · April 2014

ManiacMcLaughton wrote: »

I admittedly did not read all of these, but let me summarize what you need to understand about the design choice of 6 ability slots.

You want something but you don't realize the consequences of your request. Right now, as it stands, 75% or more of the skills and abilities available in the game are open to each and every single player. The only skills locked out are class specific ones. This means that EVERY player would have the capacity to be able to do basically everything every other player did. This means there would be zero uniqueness, strategy, or forethought put into your character, and once you reached the 300 skill points, you would basically be a swiss army knife of nonsense that couldn't be stopped.

Right now, as the game is, level 10 players can, with stat increases, compete with level 50's in PVP. Why? Because they have the same number of abilities, and the same basic stats. Sure, the abilities are different, but that's the POINT.

Class balance, as it is now, isn't about "nerf this class into the ground because they are OP"... its "this ability is a little out of hand", and they can adjust what needs adjusting... instead of having to deal with the mouth foaming masses that cry when they loose.

The 6 slots (12 really) forces thought, it forces strategy (especially in small group engagements), and it forces choice. If you don't WANT to choose, this isn't the game for you. That's not a useless swat at you, its the honest truth. This game is about meaningful choices that impact your play. From wearing heavy armor as a caster, to wearing half leather as a tank... those choices are yours to make, and they impact you, your play style, and your ability to handle each situation you are handed. The point of this game is for it to be a challenge, and for you to have to think.

I understand it can be difficult to see the consequences of changing systems like this, and I can understand "gimme now, I want cause its mine". Make choices. Play the game with this design as a core part of its foundation, or go play another and let the game continue without you. Don't try to ruin a good game with poorly planned out ideas.

T_T to bad i can only hit agree once. This is exactly what i was trying to say but far more detailed.

Sarenia · April 2014

ManiacMcLaughton wrote: »

I admittedly did not read all of these, but let me summarize what you need to understand about the design choice of 6 ability slots.

You want something but you don't realize the consequences of your request. Right now, as it stands, 75% or more of the skills and abilities available in the game are open to each and every single player. The only skills locked out are class specific ones. This means that EVERY player would have the capacity to be able to do basically everything every other player did. This means there would be zero uniqueness, strategy, or forethought put into your character, and once you reached the 300 skill points, you would basically be a swiss army knife of nonsense that couldn't be stopped.

Right now, as the game is, level 10 players can, with stat increases, compete with level 50's in PVP. Why? Because they have the same number of abilities, and the same basic stats. Sure, the abilities are different, but that's the POINT.

Class balance, as it is now, isn't about "nerf this class into the ground because they are OP"... its "this ability is a little out of hand", and they can adjust what needs adjusting... instead of having to deal with the mouth foaming masses that cry when they loose.

The 6 slots (12 really) forces thought, it forces strategy (especially in small group engagements), and it forces choice. If you don't WANT to choose, this isn't the game for you. That's not a useless swat at you, its the honest truth. This game is about meaningful choices that impact your play. From wearing heavy armor as a caster, to wearing half leather as a tank... those choices are yours to make, and they impact you, your play style, and your ability to handle each situation you are handed. The point of this game is for it to be a challenge, and for you to have to think.

I understand it can be difficult to see the consequences of changing systems like this, and I can understand "gimme now, I want cause its mine". Make choices. Play the game with this design as a core part of its foundation, or go play another and let the game continue without you. Don't try to ruin a good game with poorly planned out ideas.

Excellent post.

This should be sticky'd and referred to every time one of these threads pop up.

ZiRM · April 2014

This game is also about moving around and action combat not just spamming skills off the bar. I think the skill bars are just right the way they are.

temjiu · April 2014

Your forgetting something OP:

Its not about available skills, or flexibility only. It's not about limiting choice...it's about overall character design.

In a game where you can have all skills available at the touch of a hat, It's a necessity.

Most games that allow multiple charectar builds (like this one), and utilize the traditional MMO roel trinity (tank, healer, DPS), need limitations on a class' capacity to fill those roles.

imagine a charectar that could put otu every passive they had on their bars...every buff available, every skill they had, and all their healing spells on top of it.

add to that idea that some classes have inate healing abilities, whereas some require a weapon type (which would still be a limiting factor), and class design breaks really fast.

Other MMO's reign this in by limiting you to a "set" of skills...a.k.a WoW style. you have limited points, and if you spend enough points to be good at one thing, you are poor at the others.

This game doesn't have that limitation. without some form of control it would be impossible to balance things. So instead of limiting your skill build, they allow you to build "everything", but only have 6 skills to use at any one time (its really 5+1, as you can't slot a normal skill in your ultimate area).

To add to this, every skill currently in game...it's damage, range, CC, Cooldowns, are all based on the concept that you will only have 4 other skill options (outside the ultimate) to use in addition to that one. they would have to redesign every skill in the game pretty much from the ground up.

Its really a design choice, and to change it now would impact far more in the game then I think you realize. it's really a waste of money and time for the company to try and go back and rethink such a colossal design change, with all the testing and balance needed. It's here to stay I'm afraid.

Now adding one more skill wouldn't break the game, and would allow for more flexibility while keeping the design limitations in place. but 20? 30? all of them? that would be like taking BC or wrath era WoW classes, and tripling their available skill points...if you've played wow before the panda invasion, you'll understand the comparison. it would break things. Badly.

Zokten · April 2014

I think they should have ran with 12 skill slots and done a better quickslot feature

NordJitsu · April 2014

5 (6 with ult) make you make tough choices about your build. It forces you to pick between two skills that you really want.

This helps make builds more unique (because people will make different choices) and helps with balance (since you're build is going to have both strengths and weaknesses.)

Its also an integral part of their action combat system, which is about reacting to content with the appropriate abilities, not cycling a rotation while waiting for cool downs.

The combat is the best aspect of this game and the ability bars are perfect as is.

Azzuria · April 2014

Let me translate: WoW sucks but I want every game to play like WoW and no matter how many people prefer the way things are, I'm going to proclaim this game DEAD until it becomes another WoW clone and eventually does die... Then I'll find another unique game and do the same thing all over again.

Like monkey-farming locusts.

Don't like the design philosophy... Go back to a game you DO like! Some of us LOVE what ZOS has done and actually enjoy engaging our brains in boss fights!

Brimsurfer · April 2014

Well I don't agree I believe having 6 abilities at a time severely handicaps the character and takes away a lot of depth from the gameplay, it actually gimps the whole game.

And I say it again to the people who like to use less abilities, if we are allowed to use more abilities at a time but you like the idea of using only a few, you can still slot fewer abilities, no one is forcing you to use more abilities and that way you keep playing the gimped version of the game. This game has so much more to offer, restricted access to abilities is just killing it.

I like complex challenges in end game content and fights with strong mechanics and having access to only 6 abilities at a time will over simplify everything and water down the challenges.

RaZaddha · April 2014

timebandit_b16_ESO wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

It has nothing to do with consoles.

You're truly naive if you cant see that this poor design choice was because of the consoles.

I seriously hope they ditch consoles and bring back a full abillity bar so we can have an unlimited mmo. Dont listen to the "choice" fanboys.

Versatillity and the abillity to access any spell at all times is true mmo gaming.

This point is by far what I think brings down ESO at the moment and it really needs to be fixed.

I has nothing to do with consoles. Look at this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgM9uxOJ2FE

FFXIV And the guy has 12 abilities on his bar with room for 4 more, it's not about consoles, it's about forcing to choose a specific role but giving you the option to easily switch between roles outside battle.

If we have all skills unlocked we will basically be god-walking-on-earth like in Skyrim once you have trained to 100 all skill lines. This game requires the trinity, b but if you don't force people to choose one of the roles of the trinity you have a big *** mess on your hands attached to a nightmare to balance, remember, we can spam skills all day, theres no cooldowns only you resource pool limit the amount of skills you can use.

Stop with those threads, increasing the number of skills will never happen.

Brimsurfer · April 2014

RaZaddha wrote: »

Stop with those threads, increasing the number of skills will never happen.

Naysayers!! Don't you dream of having better days?

I think it'll happen if you push for it because it make sense.

RaZaddha · April 2014

Brimsurfer wrote: »

RaZaddha wrote: »

Stop with those threads, increasing the number of skills will never happen.

Naysayers!! Don't you dream of having better days?

I think it'll happen if you push for it because it make sense.

Hah... Yeah right. First people need to understand why it was done that way, then you push for a change. There's a delicate (in)balance on the game, people are already starting to complain about OP abilites, pushing this change would just screw things even more.

ManiacMcLaughton · April 2014

We have given you reasons this does not make sense. In depth, well thought out reasons they should not do this. If you want people to agree with you, perhaps giving an opinion more than "cause it makes sense" would be in order?

Before you type each reason you want this, I want to challenge you to think of 50 vs 50 vs 50 pvp at The highest levels of the game in the world you describe. Think about how it would look.

knightblaster · April 2014

Brimsurfer wrote: »

RaZaddha wrote: »

Stop with those threads, increasing the number of skills will never happen.

Naysayers!! Don't you dream of having better days?

I think it'll happen if you push for it because it make sense.

Nope. This is core game design. The entire game would need to be changed -- all skills, many encounters, etc., for your wish to be fulfilled. Not going to happen. Limited skills is a core game design. It's fine not to like it, but it isn't changing.

S1D3FX · April 2014

I enjoy the minimalist design personally. Well, maybe "minimalist" isn't the best word to use, but in comparison to what my raiding days of WoW were... this UI is refreshing. I can actually see the beautiful enviornment the game creators have made instead of a 25 health bars via HealBot, Class Timer yelling at me to cast a given spell right now, deadly boss mod telling me to get out of the fire, the raid leader yelling in vent that the tank isn't getting aggro fast enough. It was more of a giant UI on top of some kind of epic battle going on in the background.

TL;DR: I like seeing the world without a cluttered UI on top.

Zokten · April 2014

S1D3FX wrote: »

I enjoy the minimalist design personally. Well, maybe "minimalist" isn't the best word to use, but in comparison to what my raiding days of WoW were... this UI is refreshing. I can actually see the beautiful enviornment the game creators have made instead of a 25 health bars via HealBot, Class Timer yelling at me to cast a given spell right now, deadly boss mod telling me to get out of the fire, the raid leader yelling in vent that the tank isn't getting aggro fast enough. It was more of a giant UI on top of some kind of epic battle going on in the background.

TL;DR: I like seeing the world without a cluttered UI on top.

Oh look that troll picture about UIs

temjiu · April 2014

Brimsurfer wrote: »

RaZaddha wrote: »

Stop with those threads, increasing the number of skills will never happen.

Naysayers!! Don't you dream of having better days?

I think it'll happen if you push for it because it make sense.

It doesn't make sense. Your desire to be able to use more skills makes sense for sure! I love all my skills, and i wish i could use more.

But the design change doesn't make sense. if they get rid of the 5+1 limitation, then they will have to:

1) take away your access to all of your skills, all the time...and insitute a locked skill tree approach.

2) redesign (a.k.a nerf) most the skills in the game, as they are designed around only having 6 useable skills. less damage, CC would be drastically reduced, etc. it would literally change the scope of the game and make many of those cool skill you want to use "not so cool".

3) take huge amounts of work and dev time, which would take away from fixing bugs, and balancing the skills as they are in the game (skills still need drastic balancing as they are). Changing core design mechanics is not a simple task, and could cause most companies to go under with the overhead costs (which is why very few game companies change Core mechanics after release)

Your not just asking for a simply unlock..you are asking to completely change core mechanics...which they simply wont do. wanting or not wanting is irrelevant.

And in all honesty, i would like a few more skills. 1 or 2.... that's it. I'm not a "fan" of simple skill setups or complex...i like each one for its specific qualities. But this one is what it is.

Brimsurfer · April 2014

I just don't understand why we can't use all our skills, this just don't make sense to me at all, there is no justification for this restriction, its not freedom at all.

And people who like to play with fewer skills, just don't slot any more skills in your skill bar and give yourself all the challenge you like, that solves your problem for you. I don't see any reason for you guys to be upset. But the rest of us who like to have access to more skills should have that access.

Why impose an unnecessary restriction? What kind of freedom is this? I don't care if its a design choice or whatever, ESO is a product and best product always caters to its customers' needs. I have seen several players on the servers annoyed with this restriction I am one of them and I did get a lot of agreed votes on my profile in regards to this topic.

This restriction needs to be taken off , otherwise I don't think the game will survive for much longer.

Mortelus · April 2014

The same reason as why cars have fours wheels, because that's how it was designed.

You can have 12 if you use weapon swap. For the first time in a MMO, during combat, I am actually looking at my character and the fight, not my hotbar.

Thanks Zeni for helping me break my mold.

nerevarine1138 · April 2014

Did this thread really need to be brought back from the grave?

If you don't understand the reason behind the design choice after 4 pages, you aren't going to get it any faster by repeating a bad argument.

Brimsurfer · April 2014

yes this thread needs to be bumped because its not right, to impose unrealistic restrictions. 'play your character as you want' that's what they promised. imposing this crappy restriction is not right.

We need a bigger skill bar to use more skills at a time. anyone who does not want to use more skills can still use the same no. of skills, no one's asking them to use more skills, just don't slot more skills in your skill bar and play with 5 skills. but those of us who want to have access to more skills at a given time, should have that access, that's what freedom is about.

Phica_Lovic · April 2014

Brimsurfer wrote: »

I just don't understand why we can't use all our skills, this just don't make sense to me at all, there is no justification for this restriction, its not freedom at all.

And people who like to play with fewer skills, just don't slot any more skills in your skill bar and give yourself all the challenge you like, that solves your problem for you. I don't see any reason for you guys to be upset. But the rest of us who like to have access to more skills should have that access.

Why impose an unnecessary restriction? What kind of freedom is this? I don't care if its a design choice or whatever, ESO is a product and best product always caters to its customers' needs. I have seen several players on the servers annoyed with this restriction I am one of them and I did get a lot of agreed votes on my profile in regards to this topic.

This restriction needs to be taken off , otherwise I don't think the game will survive for much longer.

Here's my question. How can you keep saying "It's like being handicapped. Then say, "If you want it that way, play with 5 skills". What player wants to play with 1 arm - while fighting 15 octopuses in PVP? No real player would PURPOSEFULLY limit themselves. Its utterly ridiculous to request such a thing.

Secondly, image "as many skill as I can handle". Well, Im a Sorc. All those skills. But I pick up a resto staff so I can heal - I get all 5 of those healing skills too at the convenience of weapon swapping. And *** it, I throw on bound armor, both my daedra and many other of my toys. Since I have as many skills as I want, by not casting a damn thing - im already casting 3 skills and you aren't.

The idea of 6 skills isn't "restriction". The word you are looking for is "specialization". You have your tank. Your AoE healer. Your single target healer. Your ranged dps. Your up-close. Your heavy armor and your light armor. Sorcs alone - you could have a Crowd-control Sorc, an AoE damage sorc, a daedra heavy sorc to take the blows w/ armor, etc.

Lastly, you say the best product caters to the customers' needs. I haven't seen a poll up - some ppl want their limited skills (and don't tell me that giving a ton of skills is legit because all we need to do is scrap 80% of our skills). So go for a poll: ask "What percent wants x amount of skills? And what percent wants to stay at 6 (or 12 depending on how you look at it)?"

zaria · April 2014

Crumpy wrote: »

Why is it more strategic to stop and change skills than choose to press a different button?

Again, I say, it's due to the fact that the game is going to be multiplatform with consoles. That is it. But, read all the 'strategic value' into it that you want to.

The console version is independent, it would not impact it if the pc version had 6+1, as i understand you could even push in 6+1 on console if they wanted.

Think part of it is also team play, they hoped people would distribute abilities around, the PvP and undaunted skill lines is set up for this.

Then questing I mostly crystal shards, endless furry, clanfear, encase and finaly crunching shock, lighning splash or someting else in slot 5.

Shaun98ca2 · April 2014

People that argue for more abilities don't really understand the current system and why you simply cant "just add more slots". I will explain but it will fall on deaf ears.

A LOT of abilities have passive bonuses you get JUST FOR being slotted AKA pets, buffs, regens.

Take the Sorcerer for instance they have 3 abilities they would LOVE to have slotted at ALL times bound armor and both pets.

But the current system there is a trade off slotting all those. Its few abilities to actually attack with.

My Templar has an ability Restoring Aura that increases my HP and Stamina Regen that ANY Templar would LOVE to have slotted at all times but with limited slots now its a trade off.

The other reason there are 5 slotted abilities plus a ultimate aka 5+1 is due to how action oriented the game is.

Your hand is meant to stay on WASD + Mouse at all times so for MOST people hitting a key past 5 is hard to do. That's why the ultimate is slotted on the R key its easier to hit.

But people hate the 5+1 system and will never accept it or try to learn to like they most people are too add for 6 keys they need WOW style ability slotting.

Also FYI stating you DONT have to slot all your abilities jus you can.........You must have never played WOW or an MMO like it. IF you can then you HAVE to or your not viable anymore.