Please, no more dungeons where you are straight up PUNISHED for having a healer in the group.

tenryuta · February 2021

do the tink/dd typically not have an aoe/syn heal for such times?

karekiz · February 2021

Ring of the Lost Role Order

Faded · February 2021

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Maybe ZOS thinks healers are just for trials and PvP?

They seem to go back and forth about it. It would be cool if they'd make up their minds, or build their dungeons so there are advantages for each way of approaching it. Or multiple ways even.

This is an interesting thread to read. I'm not a big fan of this game's dungeons so I don't run them a hundred times plus, and I haven't set foot in some of the newer ones. I've cleared Fang Lair HM only a few times, but every one was 3DD + tank. I'd live with a healer if the tank needed one but I agree with the OP on that one.

peacenote · February 2021

I hate to generalize, but in my experience if a group is struggling with this content with two dps, the issue usually is that one or both of the DPS isn't doing enough damage to pass the content as designed, and that's why a 3rd DPS helps.

Also, sometimes the point of it is to exhibit flexibility and creativity as a group, and again while you CAN solve the problem with bypassing traditional roles there is always a way to complete the content the "right" way.

Last, I would like to point out that this is not new or even just a healing thing. Tanks always say they are useless in the last boss of DC II, and that's an older one.

I main a healer, I have four healers altogether, and I am 100% for healers being more relevant, but I am not sure I completely agree with what's being represented here. For example, I just did RoM HM yesterday and all our group needed to do to adjust was one of the DPS needed to slot a heal to heal ME when I got the statue, and once we did that we completed it easily. Yea, your solution can be "bring 3 DPS" but it isn't the only solution or even the best solution.

amm7sb14_ESO · March 2021

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Lintashi wrote: »

Sadly, everything is correct. My group struggled with Fang lair hm, the second I switched to dd it was successfully completed. Same with Scalecaller peak. Healers and tanks are absolutely hated by Zos. It is not only dungeon design. Where is solo arenas for healers and tanks? Where is dummies to test healing and taunt rotations? What was made especially for healers and tanks in vampire rework? Why it is fine to limit healing in cyro to groups, but not damage? Imagine, no group - no pvp, it would sure boost perfomance! ( glad they promised to revert heals). In every new zone, how many new sets you see for healers and tanks, and how many targeted for damage dealers? Of all stuff, healers probably get 1 set, that is good for healing once a year, and meta stays the same for ages, because there is no variety. Mostly the same could be said for tanks.

That, and the tank and healer sets that we do get, we aren't supposed to wear, because at least as a tank, I'm expected to wear sets for DPS (*cough*Alkosh*cough*) instead of sets for tanks (*cough*"sELfiSh sEtS"*cough*), so even when tanks and healers are needed, we aren't allowed to actually play AS tanks and healers, because DPS expect us to just wear the sets that they don't want to.

It's not because DPS expect you to wear them, its because ZOS designed a game where its the optimal strategy.

It's the optimal strategy if your tank doesn't need the extra survivability of selfish sets.
A dead tank isn't optimal for anything. He should be allowed to assess what's needed for himself without the default answer being "Go Yolna-Alkosh"

Too often DDs and raid leaders got the default mentality of "support the group or F-off"

Tanks and healers simply being present and doing their job supports the group in itself.

Every group is different, every support is different but supports doesn't get to choose how to best support their group, even though they're the supports. If a Tank think he needs a selfish set to comfortably get through a tough fight, he should be allowed. If a healer think a set such as Gossamer is valuable because the team takes a crap ton of AOE damage, supports should be trusted in how they can fulfill their task.

If survival is not a priority sure you can slap on whatever you need for the group. I just can't stand that the default mentality is "Do this or..." Unless you're in a leaderboard scoring settings the extra 200 spell damage on 2dds in a dungeon doesn't make or break the run and if it does you need better DDs.

This right here.

As a Necro tank, I am already providing Major Breach / Fracture, and Major and Minor Vulnerability, I'm already giving a bunch of damage buffs, and all in AOE form. If Alkosh is the difference between a clear or a wipe, then maybe the DPS aren't as good as they think they are.

Skullstachio · March 2021

There is a solution that can help healers stand out.

"While actively wielding a restoration staff, allies you overheal are granted a stacking damage shield which can absorb up to 100% of the allies maximum Health in damage. This can make some dungeon mechanics slightly more forgiving.

DarkPicture · March 2021

Arguments about 2 dds + heal cant complete 4man content a joke. If u cant finish any 4man content with 2 dds then these players needs to l2p. In current new dungeons if u do trifecta u need a healer.

Theres 1 difference between 3 dds and 2 dds 1 heal. With healer its much safer do any boss, trash. You can literally not to dodge most of mechanics cause your healer will outheal incoming dmg. Playing with 3 dds u have to avoid more oftenmany mechanics even the easiest to not get a lof od incoming dmg at the same time.

The main reason why 3 dds works in 4man content is damage taken mechanics and self heal system. ESO is using system mechanics called "1shot" between 1shot mechanic and other 1shot mechanic theres no any incoming dmg like over time dots. Which means u need to only avoid specific mechanic to survive other than that u can again dps.

People are talking about skipping mechanics but its not even true. Every dlc boss has core mechanic that u cant skip, they are unique and dedicated to each boss of specific dungeon. The only thing you can skip is random boss skills that do bonus dmg.

The 2nd thing is self healing. Self healing is even worse part than bosses mechanics. Right now every normal group is using altar which e.g. in trials is one of the highest healing on esologs. Zos also added ring of the pale order which is another killing blow for healers (theres more OP selfheal dps sets). In pve everyone plays magicka class right now and theres also reason. Almost every magicka class has access to skills which deals dmg BUT also healing at the same time.
Nb - swallow soul, warden - passiv whenever your pet dies u heal (bird spam skill is count as pet), sorc- surge, templar - jabs, dks burning embres. Only necro has different ways to heal but its similar to sorc which require just to slot 1 skill.

But these skills doesnt even matter right now. If u running 3dds u go ring pale order unless u are nb/templar which they spam skill is healing skill too.

DarkPicture · March 2021

If u want to do healer tests, just go to moongrave HM and try to do it without healer. Its not possible, everything u do there gives u healing reduction or even unable to selfheal.

Faded · March 2021

Skullstachio wrote: »

There is a solution that can help healers stand out.

"While actively wielding a restoration staff, allies you overheal are granted a stacking damage shield which can absorb up to 100% of the allies maximum Health in damage. This can make some dungeon mechanics slightly more forgiving.

You know people in Cyrodiil also carry restorations staves, right.

And this kind of thing is exactly why they should never separate PVP and PVE combat balancing. Everybody would be functionally immortal and bored to death in PVE within six months.

Merlin13KAGL · March 2021

RoM argument makes no sense. If you 3 DPS it and one gets the statue, you're still at 2 DPS effectively and the same zero heals as if the healer gets the statue.
The statue doesn't take that long to take down if the group properly identifies it.

Same thing happens to a lesser extent in Banished Cells II. One of four people is going to be effectively taken out of the fight the entire time.

SCP, same thing. It's not about needing a third DPS. It's about having enough DPS between two to take down three summons instead of just two. It's supposed to be Hard Mode.

"Dead in one second?" Learn to roll dodge/not stand in stupid? Not having a healer doesn't somehow magically change this. DPS/tank not being able to survive for a handful of seconds on their own is also not a not-healer issue. A good tank can absolutely manage for a bit on their own. They're the tank.

It sounds like you haven't been in too many groups with a really good healer. That you are the healer...well, lets just say most of these things are not healer-unneeded type issues.

3 DD compositions either mean each DD is self mitigating or self healing. If a DD is slotting extra heals, they're removing extra DPS.

A good healer/tank/dps is worth its weight in gold. All. Day. Long.

emilyhyoyeon · March 2021

In a lot of these dungeons, when I run with my friends and we go 3DD, we don't even need to slot heals or defensive stuff. DDs and tank setups typically naturally have the buffs a traditional ESO healer provides like vuln & drain, except for combat prayer's damage buff.
Maybe my situation is the minority. But a fight like FL HM for example truly has no damage at all and defensive skills are completely unneeded, healer or not.

Starlight_Whisper · March 2021

heaven13 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

LioraValkyrie wrote: »

All the duos here are with 1 tank and 1 dd.

See, you don't even need healer. You need tank to survive 1shot mechanics, you need DDs to survive DPS checks. You don't need healer for anything. I'd like to see them making some dungeons where pure HPS is required.

Moongrave Fane HM would like to speak with you.

Fungal grotto 2 and dark shade 2 last boss are how checks. I suppose squid kinda is too on dc2.

Starlight_Whisper · March 2021

Athan1 wrote: »

The pale order was a clear indication that the game is moving into a direction where healers won't be needed anymore. The fact that you can wear this ring and enter group content is outrageous. As a healer, I now get paranoid if my heals are actually working on everyone and whether someone is wearing the cursed ring and I should stop healing them. Bad game design decision.

Saw someone earlier tell everyone just slot pale order for trial

GreenHere · March 2021

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Athan1 wrote: »

The pale order was a clear indication that the game is moving into a direction where healers won't be needed anymore. The fact that you can wear this ring and enter group content is outrageous. As a healer, I now get paranoid if my heals are actually working on everyone and whether someone is wearing the cursed ring and I should stop healing them. Bad game design decision.

Saw someone earlier tell everyone just slot pale order for trial

Was it a disgruntled healer?

Starlight_Whisper · March 2021

peacenote wrote: »

I hate to generalize, but in my experience if a group is struggling with this content with two dps, the issue usually is that one or both of the DPS isn't doing enough damage to pass the content as designed, and that's why a 3rd DPS helps.

Also, sometimes the point of it is to exhibit flexibility and creativity as a group, and again while you CAN solve the problem with bypassing traditional roles there is always a way to complete the content the "right" way.

Last, I would like to point out that this is not new or even just a healing thing. Tanks always say they are useless in the last boss of DC II, and that's an older one.

I main a healer, I have four healers altogether, and I am 100% for healers being more relevant, but I am not sure I completely agree with what's being represented here. For example, I just did RoM HM yesterday and all our group needed to do to adjust was one of the DPS needed to slot a heal to heal ME when I got the statue, and once we did that we completed it easily. Yea, your solution can be "bring 3 DPS" but it isn't the only solution or even the best solution.

Dc2 some groups need tank to control adds. Especially the painful bad dps ones

AyaDark · March 2021

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Yes, healers are not "needed" in all but a few HMs for most competent groups. But I'm not talking about healer not being needed, I am talking about bad dungeon designs where you are straight up punished for bringing a healer instead of a 3rd DD, like these:

RoM (Ruins of Mazzatun) last boss:
Thanks to the curse mechanic you have a 1/3 chance of not getting heals from the healer, a group that relies on the healer will wipe the moment healer get cursed. Forcing tanks and DDs to be self sufficient

On top of that because of the need to kill totems and stoneshapers asap you are essentially gimping yourself by not having a 3DD composition. In 1T 1H 2DD composition you either get situations where healers can't heal you or where 1 DD has to carry the weight of killing adds alone, you are punished for having a healer.

Doing RoM HM with a traditional group composition is just you praying to rng god that healer don't get cursed, while the lone dps break their fingers trying to kill everything in 5 seconds.

BRF (Bloodroot forge) hm:
Pure DPS check and tank check, and that's literally it. Where's the healer check here? Instead healers are dead weight and 3DD groups are objectively better.

Everything here is easy to avoid there's nothing to heal 99% of the time, as a healer the only thing you can possibly do is provide resources for the tank, which is rendered completely null by a mag DD using orbs. Having a healer means lower dps, lower dps means more lava, more lava means more difficulty. BRF HM with a healer is the true HM here.

Worst thing is, this hm is a pain to tank, and you as a healer can't even help out in the slightest because you can't help one shots. Hell a freaking off tank might even be more useful than a healer here because of how this HM was designed.

SCP (Scalecaller Peak) hm:
Ice statue phase, nuff said. Seriously, why 3 statues? Is this hm designed around a 3dd group? You have to be a masochist to bring a healer here, ice statue phase is a complete nightmare with only 2 DD.

FL (Fang Lair) hm
The worst of the lot, so full of one shots to the point where a 1T 1H 2DD group might as well be a 1T 2DD group.

Beetles touched you = dead in 1 sec, don't interrupt = dead in 1 sec, touch ghost = one shot, hit by colossus heavy = one shot, touch poison aoe = dead in 1 sec, don't run to gold circle = one shot.

What can a healer even do here? Buff the DDs? Good luck combat prayering in all this chaos, and no number of buff can replace a 3rd DD. Heal the tank? You don't get to heal anything because tanking FL is just a bunch of "avoid/dodge roll this or die".

Having a healer instead of another DD just means more one shot ghosts and colossus to deal with. When I cleared FL HM for the very first time on my healer main I just feel bad about getting carried.

DoM (Depths of Malatar) last boss
Same as RoM last boss, thanks to that stupid healing debuff you can't rely on a healer.

At first glance the purification mechanic where you take constant increasing damage overtime seems to suggest that you need a healer, but that healing debuff (Decrepify) ruins it, thanks to that debuff the boss practically becomes a giant dps check.

The only thing a healer will do for you here is make things significantly harder for yourself. This post is 100% spot on.

CT (Castle Thorn) hm
Boss has a ridiculous 20.5 MILLION health, as if this hm was designed around and play tested with a 3DD group from the very beginning. That, on top of long immunity phases and a billion one shot mechanics means that choosing to bring a healer will only bring you pain.

As a healer main, please, no more.

Why people say that healers are no use ?

Why DD who use rotation and do good DPS do not say - why DD with 5 k dps is no use ?

Why can not you attack on healer in first place ? You can.

DD can do a little less DPS with healing stuff on.

Why healer can not do that ?

On vCT HM i some times put healing stuff on. I do 25+%DPD and heal all the time.

Why healer can not do it ?

People take gealers to just mutagen or what ?

A lot of healers just take healers becouse of:

"Tank is hard, DD needs to do dps, it is hard, so i will be a healer"

Game do not work like this you must do something good to be needed.

If you take characters to do nothing = no need.

If healers heal as good other members do not need any healing - it is ok.

But some healers heal such way, that you need heal yourself, and even have sometimes better hps.

So if you think that healer only need spam mutagen - no.

DD can just put healing stuff on and do the same + DPS.

If you want to be needed = DO SOMETHING usefull for party.

That is all it is about.

Not about healer is not needed.

Runefang · March 2021

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Athan1 wrote: »

The pale order was a clear indication that the game is moving into a direction where healers won't be needed anymore. The fact that you can wear this ring and enter group content is outrageous. As a healer, I now get paranoid if my heals are actually working on everyone and whether someone is wearing the cursed ring and I should stop healing them. Bad game design decision.

Saw someone earlier tell everyone just slot pale order for trial

Frenzy toggle, B4B and RotPO is optimal for most trials.

Majkiy · March 2021

OP [snip] didn't play with a good group apparently. Most HMs need healer and having a good healer with good sets provides higher dps than having a 3DDs. Tested it myself, most dungeons are faster with extra buffs from the healer. So if you think that healer is here just for heals, you are wrong and obviously bad healer.

All HMs you write about need a healer. From my experience as a tank that did all dungeon HMs and most dungeon trifectas, I wouldn't go any HM on 3DDs as it's a extra pain and not needed risk. If one DD died and other DD is going to ress, in most cases that DD needs a healing backup so no mechanic will kill that DD who is ressing.

Healer is not useless anywhere. Healer is needed for extra safety, buffs and dps. I always like having a healer in my group and always prefer doing every 4man content with 1T 1H 2DD.

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

Blue_Radium · March 2021

Most everything healers do have diminishing returns when applied to 4 man vs. 12 man. That's the key problem. DD contribution scales in 4 man content, healers don't. Making healers equal or greater to a 3rd DPS in 4 mans would mean making them absurdly overpowered force multipliers in trials. That'll never happen, so a 3rd DPS will always be better in 4 mans.

You'll know you should consider bringing healers into 4 man content if you suddenly see a lot more TTTs and Gryhon Hearts running around.

hcbigdogdoghc · March 2021

.....

I'm not talking about 3DD vs healer in general, I am talking about dungeon design

preevious · March 2021

Blue_Radium wrote: »

Most everything healers do have diminishing returns when applied to 4 man vs. 12 man. That's the key problem. DD contribution scales in 4 man content, healers don't. Making healers equal or greater to a 3rd DPS in 4 mans would mean making them absurdly overpowered force multipliers in trials. That'll never happen, so a 3rd DPS will always be better in 4 mans.

You'll know you should consider bringing healers into 4 man content if you suddenly see a lot more TTTs and Gryhon Hearts running around.

That's actually does not make any sense..

If a heal ups the DDs output by 30%, no matter how many DDs there are, the overall group output will still increase by 30%.
Where did you see diminishing returns?

Since boss HP are more than 4x higher in trials, it's actually the opposite, you save proportionnaly less time in trials than in dungeons.
+30% is thus stronger in 4 person content than in 12 ...

a 3rd DPS will always be less efficient than a dedicated heal. Always.

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

.....

I'm not talking about 3DD vs healer in general, I am talking about dungeon design

[snip] But more on your topic, no, there is no such things as a dungeon that punishes the presence of an healer. For some fights, the healer might be temporarily unavailable, true (RoM) .. then, I slot a self heal to stay alive during those few secs, then stop casting it the moment the healer comes back with all his buffs.

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

Blue_Radium · March 2021

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

.....

I'm not talking about 3DD vs healer in general, I am talking about dungeon design

Good point - think I inadvertently got off topic, appreciate it.

There is a larger problem of essentially all 4-man dungeon design being healer un-friendly, if you expand beyond just the things that specifically attack healers. The mechanics you shared don't do much to help the case for them being worthwhile, though.

Agenericname · March 2021

preevious wrote: »

Blue_Radium wrote: »

Most everything healers do have diminishing returns when applied to 4 man vs. 12 man. That's the key problem. DD contribution scales in 4 man content, healers don't. Making healers equal or greater to a 3rd DPS in 4 mans would mean making them absurdly overpowered force multipliers in trials. That'll never happen, so a 3rd DPS will always be better in 4 mans.

You'll know you should consider bringing healers into 4 man content if you suddenly see a lot more TTTs and Gryhon Hearts running around.

That's actually does not make any sense..

If a heal ups the DDs output by 30%, no matter how many DDs there are, the overall group output will still increase by 30%.
Where did you see diminishing returns?

Since boss HP are more than 4x higher in trials, it's actually the opposite, you save proportionnaly less time in trials than in dungeons.
+30% is thus stronger in 4 person content than in 12 ...

a 3rd DPS will always be less efficient than a dedicated heal. Always.

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

.....

I'm not talking about 3DD vs healer in general, I am talking about dungeon design

yeah, sometimes, discussions evolve. But more on your topic, no, there is no such things as a dungeon that punishes the presence of an healer. For some fights, the healer might be temporarily unavailable, true (RoM) .. then, I slot a self heal to stay alive during those few secs, then stop casting it the moment the healer comes back with all his buffs.

Diminishing returns in that 30% of 8 DPS is much higher than 30% of 2. Its still 30% either way, but the over all dps numbers will be much higher and exceed what any single damage dealer can do. Whatever the damage multiplier is, the value will always be higher buffing 8 rather than 2.

That's all assuming that the healers can maintain the buff and the heals. One of the dungeons cited is FL HM and that fight is so mobile that the healers isnt contributing the same buffs as they would in a stack n burn fight.

preevious · March 2021

Agenericname wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Blue_Radium wrote: »

Most everything healers do have diminishing returns when applied to 4 man vs. 12 man. That's the key problem. DD contribution scales in 4 man content, healers don't. Making healers equal or greater to a 3rd DPS in 4 mans would mean making them absurdly overpowered force multipliers in trials. That'll never happen, so a 3rd DPS will always be better in 4 mans.

You'll know you should consider bringing healers into 4 man content if you suddenly see a lot more TTTs and Gryhon Hearts running around.

That's actually does not make any sense..

If a heal ups the DDs output by 30%, no matter how many DDs there are, the overall group output will still increase by 30%.
Where did you see diminishing returns?

Since boss HP are more than 4x higher in trials, it's actually the opposite, you save proportionnaly less time in trials than in dungeons.
+30% is thus stronger in 4 person content than in 12 ...

a 3rd DPS will always be less efficient than a dedicated heal. Always.

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

.....

I'm not talking about 3DD vs healer in general, I am talking about dungeon design

yeah, sometimes, discussions evolve. But more on your topic, no, there is no such things as a dungeon that punishes the presence of an healer. For some fights, the healer might be temporarily unavailable, true (RoM) .. then, I slot a self heal to stay alive during those few secs, then stop casting it the moment the healer comes back with all his buffs.

Diminishing returns in that 30% of 8 DPS is much higher than 30% of 2. Its still 30% either way, but the over all dps numbers will be much higher and exceed what any single damage dealer can do. Whatever the damage multiplier is, the value will always be higher buffing 8 rather than 2.

That's all assuming that the healers can maintain the buff and the heals. One of the dungeons cited is FL HM and that fight is so mobile that the healers isnt contributing the same buffs as they would in a stack n burn fight.

Stiil, since the boss's hp is also multiplicated there's still no diminishing returns.
Really, think about it.

Consider a boss that have 10mil hp, for 2 DPS in dungeon.
And then a boss that have 40mil hp, fir 8 DPS, in trial.

You can understand that 30% in one case is exactly the same as 30% in the others. Raw numbers are useless, only proportion counts. The time saved and the growth in power is IDENTICAL.

Now, consider that bosses in dungeons have less than 10milHp, that bosses in trials have more than 40mil hp, and you'll notice that healers are actually much more powerfull in dungeon than in trials.
(especially since in dungeon, the healer will have a bit of time to attack, while he'll often have to stick on his heals in trials)

Really, think about it.

HumbleThaumaturge · March 2021

Thanks hcbigdogdoghc for taking the time to state the case so well. I play healer for pledge dungeons. I agree with everything he says.

I will add one thing more: According to a list I have been keeping, ZOS has made approximately five dozen nerfs to my healers since launch. If I were paranoid, I might suspect someone is trying to entirely eliminate healers in Tamriel.

Personally, the new veteran DLC hard-mode dungeons are too difficult for me to enjoy. I have the CP and the gold-gear to complete them, but I do not enjoy them. Therefore, I no longer buy DLCs because I simply don't run the DLC dungeons any more. They are just not fun for me. However, I hear from other players that they love the more challenging content. That's cool. I am glad ZOS is making such content for them. So I'm okay with the difficulty. It's cool that the game has content that is too difficult for me. But I'm not okay with DLC dungeons being specifically designed for 1 tank and 3 dps, instead of the traditional group that includes a healer. As the OP discussed, the group-dps required for these dungeons is so high, the traditional group is at a serious disadvantage.

One last thought: Since One Tamriel, the PvE content is way too easy for me to have fun. And the new veteran DLC hard-mode dungeons are way to hard for me to have fun. I guess that's why I now only play a few weeks per year: a few days during Midyear Mayhem and a couple of weeks after the annual expansion is released.

Blue_Radium · March 2021

Agenericname wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Blue_Radium wrote: »

Most everything healers do have diminishing returns when applied to 4 man vs. 12 man. That's the key problem. DD contribution scales in 4 man content, healers don't. Making healers equal or greater to a 3rd DPS in 4 mans would mean making them absurdly overpowered force multipliers in trials. That'll never happen, so a 3rd DPS will always be better in 4 mans.

You'll know you should consider bringing healers into 4 man content if you suddenly see a lot more TTTs and Gryhon Hearts running around.

That's actually does not make any sense..

If a heal ups the DDs output by 30%, no matter how many DDs there are, the overall group output will still increase by 30%.
Where did you see diminishing returns?

Since boss HP are more than 4x higher in trials, it's actually the opposite, you save proportionnaly less time in trials than in dungeons.
+30% is thus stronger in 4 person content than in 12 ...

a 3rd DPS will always be less efficient than a dedicated heal. Always.

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

.....

I'm not talking about 3DD vs healer in general, I am talking about dungeon design

[snip] But more on your topic, no, there is no such things as a dungeon that punishes the presence of an healer. For some fights, the healer might be temporarily unavailable, true (RoM) .. then, I slot a self heal to stay alive during those few secs, then stop casting it the moment the healer comes back with all his buffs.

Diminishing returns in that 30% of 8 DPS is much higher than 30% of 2. Its still 30% either way, but the over all dps numbers will be much higher and exceed what any single damage dealer can do. Whatever the damage multiplier is, the value will always be higher buffing 8 rather than 2.

That's all assuming that the healers can maintain the buff and the heals. One of the dungeons cited is FL HM and that fight is so mobile that the healers isnt contributing the same buffs as they would in a stack n burn fight.

Comes down to this for most-everything

preevious wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Blue_Radium wrote: »

Most everything healers do have diminishing returns when applied to 4 man vs. 12 man. That's the key problem. DD contribution scales in 4 man content, healers don't. Making healers equal or greater to a 3rd DPS in 4 mans would mean making them absurdly overpowered force multipliers in trials. That'll never happen, so a 3rd DPS will always be better in 4 mans.

You'll know you should consider bringing healers into 4 man content if you suddenly see a lot more TTTs and Gryhon Hearts running around.

That's actually does not make any sense..

If a heal ups the DDs output by 30%, no matter how many DDs there are, the overall group output will still increase by 30%.
Where did you see diminishing returns?

Since boss HP are more than 4x higher in trials, it's actually the opposite, you save proportionnaly less time in trials than in dungeons.
+30% is thus stronger in 4 person content than in 12 ...

a 3rd DPS will always be less efficient than a dedicated heal. Always.

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

.....

I'm not talking about 3DD vs healer in general, I am talking about dungeon design

yeah, sometimes, discussions evolve. But more on your topic, no, there is no such things as a dungeon that punishes the presence of an healer. For some fights, the healer might be temporarily unavailable, true (RoM) .. then, I slot a self heal to stay alive during those few secs, then stop casting it the moment the healer comes back with all his buffs.

Diminishing returns in that 30% of 8 DPS is much higher than 30% of 2. Its still 30% either way, but the over all dps numbers will be much higher and exceed what any single damage dealer can do. Whatever the damage multiplier is, the value will always be higher buffing 8 rather than 2.

That's all assuming that the healers can maintain the buff and the heals. One of the dungeons cited is FL HM and that fight is so mobile that the healers isnt contributing the same buffs as they would in a stack n burn fight.

Stiil, since the boss's hp is also multiplicated there's still no diminishing returns.
Really, think about it.

Consider a boss that have 10mil hp, for 2 DPS in dungeon.
And then a boss that have 40mil hp, fir 8 DPS, in trial.

You can understand that 30% in one case is exactly the same as 30% in the others. Raw numbers are useless, only proportion counts. The time saved and the growth in power is IDENTICAL.

Now, consider that bosses in dungeons have less than 10milHp, that bosses in trials have more than 40mil hp, and you'll notice that healers are actually much more powerfull in dungeon than in trials.
(especially since in dungeon, the healer will have a bit of time to attack, while he'll often have to stick on his heals in trials)

Really, think about it.

There are diminishing returns:

Trial: increase 8 DPS damage by 25% (8×25)=200 - the healer being there is the same as 200% of 1 DPS being there. The healer is the obvious smart choice, no further debate needed.

4 man: increase 2 DPS by 25% (2×25)=50 - the healer being there is the same as 50% of 1 DPS being there. Highly questionable. If the healer also does half the damage of a DPS by themselves, and provides other utility, a case could be made for bringing them.

But the issues that the OP is bringing up means that healers often aren't providing those benefits that can make them worthwhile. Also a healer buffing DPS by 25% is very likely not happening in a 4 man setting, giving them the benefit of the doubt.

preevious · March 2021

Blue_Radium wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Blue_Radium wrote: »

Most everything healers do have diminishing returns when applied to 4 man vs. 12 man. That's the key problem. DD contribution scales in 4 man content, healers don't. Making healers equal or greater to a 3rd DPS in 4 mans would mean making them absurdly overpowered force multipliers in trials. That'll never happen, so a 3rd DPS will always be better in 4 mans.

You'll know you should consider bringing healers into 4 man content if you suddenly see a lot more TTTs and Gryhon Hearts running around.

That's actually does not make any sense..

If a heal ups the DDs output by 30%, no matter how many DDs there are, the overall group output will still increase by 30%.
Where did you see diminishing returns?

Since boss HP are more than 4x higher in trials, it's actually the opposite, you save proportionnaly less time in trials than in dungeons.
+30% is thus stronger in 4 person content than in 12 ...

a 3rd DPS will always be less efficient than a dedicated heal. Always.

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

.....

I'm not talking about 3DD vs healer in general, I am talking about dungeon design

[snip] But more on your topic, no, there is no such things as a dungeon that punishes the presence of an healer. For some fights, the healer might be temporarily unavailable, true (RoM) .. then, I slot a self heal to stay alive during those few secs, then stop casting it the moment the healer comes back with all his buffs.

Diminishing returns in that 30% of 8 DPS is much higher than 30% of 2. Its still 30% either way, but the over all dps numbers will be much higher and exceed what any single damage dealer can do. Whatever the damage multiplier is, the value will always be higher buffing 8 rather than 2.

That's all assuming that the healers can maintain the buff and the heals. One of the dungeons cited is FL HM and that fight is so mobile that the healers isnt contributing the same buffs as they would in a stack n burn fight.

Comes down to this for most-everything

preevious wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Blue_Radium wrote: »

Most everything healers do have diminishing returns when applied to 4 man vs. 12 man. That's the key problem. DD contribution scales in 4 man content, healers don't. Making healers equal or greater to a 3rd DPS in 4 mans would mean making them absurdly overpowered force multipliers in trials. That'll never happen, so a 3rd DPS will always be better in 4 mans.

You'll know you should consider bringing healers into 4 man content if you suddenly see a lot more TTTs and Gryhon Hearts running around.

That's actually does not make any sense..

If a heal ups the DDs output by 30%, no matter how many DDs there are, the overall group output will still increase by 30%.
Where did you see diminishing returns?

Since boss HP are more than 4x higher in trials, it's actually the opposite, you save proportionnaly less time in trials than in dungeons.
+30% is thus stronger in 4 person content than in 12 ...

a 3rd DPS will always be less efficient than a dedicated heal. Always.

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

.....

I'm not talking about 3DD vs healer in general, I am talking about dungeon design

yeah, sometimes, discussions evolve. But more on your topic, no, there is no such things as a dungeon that punishes the presence of an healer. For some fights, the healer might be temporarily unavailable, true (RoM) .. then, I slot a self heal to stay alive during those few secs, then stop casting it the moment the healer comes back with all his buffs.

Diminishing returns in that 30% of 8 DPS is much higher than 30% of 2. Its still 30% either way, but the over all dps numbers will be much higher and exceed what any single damage dealer can do. Whatever the damage multiplier is, the value will always be higher buffing 8 rather than 2.

That's all assuming that the healers can maintain the buff and the heals. One of the dungeons cited is FL HM and that fight is so mobile that the healers isnt contributing the same buffs as they would in a stack n burn fight.

Stiil, since the boss's hp is also multiplicated there's still no diminishing returns.
Really, think about it.

Consider a boss that have 10mil hp, for 2 DPS in dungeon.
And then a boss that have 40mil hp, fir 8 DPS, in trial.

You can understand that 30% in one case is exactly the same as 30% in the others. Raw numbers are useless, only proportion counts. The time saved and the growth in power is IDENTICAL.

Now, consider that bosses in dungeons have less than 10milHp, that bosses in trials have more than 40mil hp, and you'll notice that healers are actually much more powerfull in dungeon than in trials.
(especially since in dungeon, the healer will have a bit of time to attack, while he'll often have to stick on his heals in trials)

Really, think about it.

There are diminishing returns:

Trial: increase 8 DPS damage by 25% (8×25)=200 - the healer being there is the same as 200% of 1 DPS being there. The healer is the obvious smart choice, no further debate needed.

4 man: increase 2 DPS by 25% (2×25)=50 - the healer being there is the same as 50% of 1 DPS being there. Highly questionable. If the healer also does half the damage of a DPS by themselves, and provides other utility, a case could be made for bringing them.

But the issues that the OP is bringing up means that healers often aren't providing those benefits that can make them worthwhile. Also a healer buffing DPS by 25% is very likely not happening in a 4 man setting, giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, but you don't understand ..

The added 200 in trials is FAR LESS POWERFULL than the added 50 in dungeons.
I'll repeat : raw numbers don't mean anything at all. You have to reason with proportions and percentage.

let's consider :

Dungeon :
Group DPS 80k. Healer add 25% (for simplicity's sake) --> total 100k. Healer contribution : 20k.
Boss hp 5mil. Heal thus contribute 1/250th of the boss's HP per sec.

Trial (same numbers, only x4)
Group DPS 320k. Healer add 25% (for simplicity's sake) --> total 400k. Healer contribution : 80k.
Boss hp : 60mil (and that's low end, for a trial boss). Heal contributes 1/750th of the boss's HP per sec.

See? the dungeon healer bring 4 times less DPS in raw number ...but actually contribute 3 times more.

khyrkat · March 2021

As a dedicated healer - and playing healer in all MMOs I played for last 20 years - I get that with high enough damage mechanics can be skipped BUT is this point to make mechanics only to make them skippable? This is straight bad game design and I'm saying this as (former) game dev myself. When group is formed as a trinity of dps, healer and tank, then these roles should be viable mechanics-wise. For example in one of games I play there are mechanics that never target tank and healer, only dps. There are mechanics designed specifically for healer to somewhat "heal check". Also tank checks. Dps checks of course. Mechanics where whole group must focus specific thing together. Even monkey can press buttons in correct order if trained to do so, what do you expect, only dd's playing? This is beyond ridiculous. What is wrong with people these days? Why do I have to feel useless playing role I chose and like? Because some copy-paste alcast build wanna-be-pro says so? LOL If I play with good group I focus more on buffing them to indeed make the run a bit faster. When group is weaker I cannot buff 0 because adding 5% buff to 0 is still 0. So I heal more. But using example of "mechanics can be skipped with high dps so healers leave pls" is just selfish. What do you think, why you're so good in a group? Because there is healer that will buff you and take care of your resources. Do this on your own and your dps will drop because you will have to sacrifice some skills in favor of heals/defense. That doesn't mean I want to play as pure buff-bot to ever demanding monkey society of button mashers. I adjust but I refuse to adjust to potato gameplay running through every content mindlessly. And as a side note - please don't bring your dummy parses to dungeons to support your claims, I couldn't care less. This is still group play, when ZOS finally butchers it and makes it pure solo game, then fine but then again I will luckily not meet such players in dungeons.
Every mechanic that can be cheated/omitted/skipped/cheased/etc shouldn't exist. People exploiting games is normal thing, people in majority are stupid and want easy stuff fast but creators letting their product to be cheated/omitted/skipped/cheased/etc is just beyond any logical thinking.
I had pleasure to meet like-minded people often. People that don't rush, take their time, omg even talk in dungeon O_O I met CP810 dd's playing with mechanics and genuinely having fun utilizing tools we were given as a group to do mechanics of the dungeon. They had enough dps to make dungeon smooth without skipping mechanics but just doing them right, in the right time. I also met CP810 dolmen farmers not being able to properly use synergy but "we are dd pros we need another one dd". The more ZOS listens to the latter, the more dumbed down and straight boring the game will be. If that is what ZOS wants, well, I am happy to be in beta test group for quite promising MMO encouraging players to think rather than mash buttons. And of course there are still single players ES games. If, however, there is at least one person in ZOS not spoilt by monkeys screaming "moar dps!" then please don't fire this person and let them speak.

preevious · March 2021

khyrkat wrote: »

As a dedicated healer - and playing healer in all MMOs I played for last 20 years - I get that with high enough damage mechanics can be skipped BUT is this point to make mechanics only to make them skippable? This is straight bad game design and I'm saying this as (former) game dev myself. When group is formed as a trinity of dps, healer and tank, then these roles should be viable mechanics-wise. For example in one of games I play there are mechanics that never target tank and healer, only dps. There are mechanics designed specifically for healer to somewhat "heal check". Also tank checks. Dps checks of course. Mechanics where whole group must focus specific thing together. Even monkey can press buttons in correct order if trained to do so, what do you expect, only dd's playing? This is beyond ridiculous. What is wrong with people these days? Why do I have to feel useless playing role I chose and like? Because some copy-paste alcast build wanna-be-pro says so? LOL If I play with good group I focus more on buffing them to indeed make the run a bit faster. When group is weaker I cannot buff 0 because adding 5% buff to 0 is still 0. So I heal more. But using example of "mechanics can be skipped with high dps so healers leave pls" is just selfish. What do you think, why you're so good in a group? Because there is healer that will buff you and take care of your resources. Do this on your own and your dps will drop because you will have to sacrifice some skills in favor of heals/defense. That doesn't mean I want to play as pure buff-bot to ever demanding monkey society of button mashers. I adjust but I refuse to adjust to potato gameplay running through every content mindlessly. And as a side note - please don't bring your dummy parses to dungeons to support your claims, I couldn't care less. This is still group play, when ZOS finally butchers it and makes it pure solo game, then fine but then again I will luckily not meet such players in dungeons.
Every mechanic that can be cheated/omitted/skipped/cheased/etc shouldn't exist. People exploiting games is normal thing, people in majority are stupid and want easy stuff fast but creators letting their product to be cheated/omitted/skipped/cheased/etc is just beyond any logical thinking.
I had pleasure to meet like-minded people often. People that don't rush, take their time, omg even talk in dungeon O_O I met CP810 dd's playing with mechanics and genuinely having fun utilizing tools we were given as a group to do mechanics of the dungeon. They had enough dps to make dungeon smooth without skipping mechanics but just doing them right, in the right time. I also met CP810 dolmen farmers not being able to properly use synergy but "we are dd pros we need another one dd". The more ZOS listens to the latter, the more dumbed down and straight boring the game will be. If that is what ZOS wants, well, I am happy to be in beta test group for quite promising MMO encouraging players to think rather than mash buttons. And of course there are still single players ES games. If, however, there is at least one person in ZOS not spoilt by monkeys screaming "moar dps!" then please don't fire this person and let them speak.

I tend to agree with you..mostly.
Keep in mind, though, that the % of people that can skip mechanics due to DPS is very small. Most group play the mechanics, because they have to.
I'd say, if the people that can skip them are happy like that, then, why not? Let's let them have their fun and nuke all opposition.

Me, I like to do both. I can slow down it my teamates want to have a nice walk, and I'm all for obliterating everything if that's the consensus.

The real problem is that in a game such as eso, were skill plays a big role, the ceilling and the floor are very distant. Any content the ceiling have to be serious about will be utterly inaccessible to the floor.
I don't think it's a good thing either.

khyrkat · March 2021

I tend to agree with you..mostly.
Keep in mind, though, that the % of people that can skip mechanics due to DPS is very small. Most group play the mechanics, because they have to.
I'd say, if the people that can skip them are happy like that, then, why not? Let's let them have their fun and nuke all opposition.

Me, I like to do both. I can slow down it my teamates want to have a nice walk, and I'm all for obliterating everything if that's the consensus.

The real problem is that in a game such as eso, were skill plays a big role, the ceilling and the floor are very distant. Any content the ceiling have to be serious about will be utterly inaccessible to the floor.
I don't think it's a good thing either.

I have no issues with high damage groups, sometimes they still prefer to play mechanics rather than burn stuff (and in some places there is really needed some kind of situational awareness as to what needs to be killed first so not always they can just ride the lightning and leave ash behind). I will gladly buff them to the point they will sit on their numbers with wide smiles

if the consensus is "no death speed run, we have stuff for that" go ahead, it's still fun. If the consensus is "I have a quest here" and overall group seems to be more chill and slower at the very start, no issues, just enjoy the surroundings (I can literally go through Maarselok indefinitely because I love the landscapes ^_^)
It's the people straight yelling at me because I'm a healer that really annoy me. Like this 25k hp "tank"dude that asked me in offending way did I really have to enter this random vet dungeon as a healer because 3 dd's are better, like wtf, it's random and puts specified roles in a group O_O There is no balance in any game I ever played, no matter what devs do, there is always group that screams "moar damage", then the other "healers lives matter", "tanks are not only meatshields" etc, etc. The issue is when one or another group is treated as priority with sacrificing enjoyable game play. There is reason why in car racing games the more speed you have, the better you are. There are no other things to fight only time. If we do this in game like ESO, such games will lose majority of players because people play MMOs for different reasons than racing games. if that's what devs intend, well... nope.