Please, no more dungeons where you are straight up PUNISHED for having a healer in the group.

hcbigdogdoghc

Yes, healers are not "needed" in all but a few HMs for most competent groups. But I'm not talking about healer not being needed, I am talking about bad dungeon designs where you are straight up punished for bringing a healer instead of a 3rd DD, like these:

RoM (Ruins of Mazzatun) last boss:
Thanks to the curse mechanic you have a 1/3 chance of not getting heals from the healer, a group that relies on the healer will wipe the moment healer get cursed. Forcing tanks and DDs to be self sufficient

On top of that because of the need to kill totems and stoneshapers asap you are essentially gimping yourself by not having a 3DD composition. In 1T 1H 2DD composition you either get situations where healers can't heal you or where 1 DD has to carry the weight of killing adds alone, you are punished for having a healer.

Doing RoM HM with a traditional group composition is just you praying to rng god that healer don't get cursed, while the lone dps break their fingers trying to kill everything in 5 seconds.

BRF (Bloodroot forge) hm:
Pure DPS check and tank check, and that's literally it. Where's the healer check here? Instead healers are dead weight and 3DD groups are objectively better.

Everything here is easy to avoid there's nothing to heal 99% of the time, as a healer the only thing you can possibly do is provide resources for the tank, which is rendered completely null by a mag DD using orbs. Having a healer means lower dps, lower dps means more lava, more lava means more difficulty. BRF HM with a healer is the true HM here.

Worst thing is, this hm is a pain to tank, and you as a healer can't even help out in the slightest because you can't help one shots. Hell a freaking off tank might even be more useful than a healer here because of how this HM was designed.

SCP (Scalecaller Peak) hm:
Ice statue phase, nuff said. Seriously, why 3 statues? Is this hm designed around a 3dd group? You have to be a masochist to bring a healer here, ice statue phase is a complete nightmare with only 2 DD.

FL (Fang Lair) hm
The worst of the lot, so full of one shots to the point where a 1T 1H 2DD group might as well be a 1T 2DD group.

Beetles touched you = dead in 1 sec, don't interrupt = dead in 1 sec, touch ghost = one shot, hit by colossus heavy = one shot, touch poison aoe = dead in 1 sec, don't run to gold circle = one shot.

What can a healer even do here? Buff the DDs? Good luck combat prayering in all this chaos, and no number of buff can replace a 3rd DD. Heal the tank? You don't get to heal anything because tanking FL is just a bunch of "avoid/dodge roll this or die".

Having a healer instead of another DD just means more one shot ghosts and colossus to deal with. When I cleared FL HM for the very first time on my healer main I just feel bad about getting carried.

DoM (Depths of Malatar) last boss
Same as RoM last boss, thanks to that stupid healing debuff you can't rely on a healer.

At first glance the purification mechanic where you take constant increasing damage overtime seems to suggest that you need a healer, but that healing debuff (Decrepify) ruins it, thanks to that debuff the boss practically becomes a giant dps check.

The only thing a healer will do for you here is make things significantly harder for yourself. This post is 100% spot on.

CT (Castle Thorn) hm
Boss has a ridiculous 20.5 MILLION health, as if this hm was designed around and play tested with a 3DD group from the very beginning. That, on top of long immunity phases and a billion one shot mechanics means that choosing to bring a healer will only bring you pain.

As a healer main, please, no more.

Miszou

What did you do with all the time you saved by using acronyms instead of writing out the full name of each dungeon..?

bluebird

Miszou wrote: »

What did you do with all the time you saved by using acronyms instead of writing out the full name of each dungeon..?

99% of the time, people ingame don't type out dungeon/trial names either. And for the 1% who prefer to type things out, seeing the shorthand versions will make them get used to it more so they instantly know what 'vSS' and 'LF 2 DD' etc mean and won't have to ask 'What's LoM' or type 'Looking for one tank and one damage dealer for veteran Scalecaller Peak'.

CheeseWhalele

The OP has a good point. The game mechanic requires three roles to enter a dungeon as a group, but if you then effectively disable one of of the roles after entering, ZOS is encouraging the "healers are useles, DPS is all that counts" attitude that is written about quite a bit in this forum. It diminishes the game design.

I enjoy combat in a support role, but when those roles are made obsolete my reason to play is gone.

EDIT: This is an awesome game with many roles for many people and I've found the vast majority of the community to be very happy when a real healer or tank shows up to support them.

amm7sb14_ESO

CheeseWhalele wrote: »

The OP has a good point. The game mechanic requires three roles to enter a dungeon as a group, but if you then effectively disable one of of the roles after entering, ZOS is encouraging the "healers are useles, DPS is all that counts" attitude that is written about quite a bit in this forum. It diminishes the game design.

I enjoy combat in a support role, but when those roles are made obsolete my reason to play is gone.

Yup. Quite frankly I'm sick and tired of the "DPS is all that counts" attitude both from the community and from the game design.

FrancisCrawford

The one and only time I did RoM, I was in a group NONE of whom had done the dungeon before, and one of whom wasn't even Level 50. Since I have two monitors on my PC, I could read more about the mechanics than the other teammates. (I copied/pasted for them.) I was the healer.

Most of the way, I sat back, let them do the mechanics, and kept them alive. But they seemed bewildered at the mechanics in the final fight and so, even though I didn't understand them that well either, I was the team member who finally did them.

(Obviously, this was in normal mode ...)

Grandchamp1989

BRF HM is by far the worst offender.

The fight literally ONLY punish the tank who has to hold 3 one-shot bosses.

The rest is just parsing the bosses and avoiding AOE falling from the ceiling.

It's a DPS race since you have to do it before the room fills the with lava.

3DD run is bar far the most optimal way for that fight. 100k+ DPS and the fight is way too easy. 20k DPS and the fight is the hardest in the game XD

It shouldn't be possible to skip mechs with super high DPS. They should add in immunity phases to make the fight just as hard if you got 20k DPS or 100k DPS. I'm okey with them reaching the phases faster - but you should not be able to outright skip mechs.
ATM Playing a dungeon vet DLC dungeon with 20k and 130k DPS is literally like playing two different games, they're not comparable. Same for a trial with 200k damage and 600k damage... Like playing two different games.

WrathOfInnos

I see your point on some of these, but IMO both DoM and CT HM are much easier with a healer.

Also in RoM you can control who gets the curse. Just have the healer stand at the entrance door when you finish the miniboss, far from the boss when she gets out of her cage. Someone closer will get chosen for the statue curse. You also can’t really self-heal while cursed, so this HM is easiest with a healer.

SCP, FL and BRF do all seem like 3 DPS dungeons.

Pauwer

I agree 100% [snip] Shame on you. Healer lives matter.

[Edited to remove Bashing]

KovalskyNestor

I agree with op, even as dps main, I feel bad for healers. I remember when we struggled to complete FL hm countless times with a healer, but after the healer switched to dps, we finished hm on second try.
This is also the reason why dps checks and dummy numbers are so prevalent in this game.

It's much easier to complete a dungeon if you "burn the boss" instead of trying to do mechanics. Mechanics are all the same "if you don't do this, everyone will get one shoted".

svendf

It´s simply pure wrong that healer aren´t needed. For 1% of the dps in this game maybe, but as I see it it´s doesn´t represent the ESO community as a whole. these 1%want to keep out a role in the game, please be my guest - many will not miss you anyway.

When on healer or tank I see everyday the, whats going on. see dds smashed to pieces in normal and vet dungeons/DLC´s.

I haven´t started on, what I would call griefing/harasment against tanks and healers, from individuals, who wanna change the game.

To healers. Just role on and do, what´s needed to do. Don´t let these individuals scare yoy away.

Josira

w-what dungeons are you talking about? I figured out Ruins of Mazzatan for RoM but..thats all I got

hcbigdogdoghc

LOL guess I'll add the full dungeon names

GreenHere

Not to tell people how to play or anything, but... don't all good healers have the ability to slide themselves toward the damage-dealing end of the scale when needed?

Maybe not early on, but we're talking about endgame dungeon runs here. Pretty much all CP-capped dedicated healers I've known could pull 20K DPS if the situation called for it; or more, if they dropped a support set or two (again, as the situation called for). Swap some skills, gear, whatever else you need to, and whambalam -- you got yourself a ¾ DD ¼ Healer in the group. A lot of healers are just kind of static heal/buff bots that way overdo their role; I know they mean well, but they aren't helping as much as they think because their healing and buffing can only go so far before it's utterly wasted (whether it's by mechanics, DD's capabilities, or whatever). Top-tier healers know flexibility is required, and have the insight to know when.

I hesitate to play this card, as I generally hate the attitude, but this sounds like a "learn 2 play" issue. Sometimes support roles need to step outside the rigid definitions of their role that they're used to to get things done; sometimes the best way a healer can support their group is to pile on a little more pain and sacrifice a few of the feel-good vibes. If a few endgame, exceptionally hard, veteran Hard Mode dungeon fights enforce this lesson with merciless brutality... well, personally I think that's kind of a good thing! Gotta learn that over-healing and providing buffs & sustain 110% of the time while the rest of the team kind of carries you is a bad thing sometime, right?

Personally, I always took those fights as a big obvious "YOU SHOULD BE DOING THIS DIFFERENTLY" sign when I was the healer who was holding the group back. It was a valuable lesson when I (eventually) learned that sometimes the group benefits more if I heal enough and focus more on helping kill things faster. I respectfully submit that if you're a healer who doesn't have this flexibility in their toolkit, you've still got more room to grow on your way to mastery for that role.

I don't see it as bad game design -- quite the opposite, actually -- IF used sparingly/appropriately. If anything, I'd like softer-yet-more-direct instances that taught healers this lesson in the early game. We could use more-flexible healers, and more flexible healers!

Nyladreas

KovalskyNestor wrote: »

I agree with op, even as dps main, I feel bad for healers. I remember when we struggled to complete FL hm countless times with a healer, but after the healer switched to dps, we finished hm on second try.
This is also the reason why dps checks and dummy numbers are so prevalent in this game.

It's much easier to complete a dungeon if you "burn the boss" instead of trying to do mechanics. Mechanics are all the same "if you don't do this, everyone will get one shoted".

I've been saying this for years: lock boss HP for mechanics purposes. Then EVERYONE has to do them. Regardless of DPS.

EVERYONE in high end PvE will hate me (again) for saying this, but this is literally the only way to ensure fair role/gameplay for everybody.

Worse yet if DDs overdo it they might get multiple mechanics at the same time if noone pays attention to them and just keeps burning the boss after their "invulnerability while in mechanic" phase.

It's that or *** design... You can't really make it fair without HP locks tbh. Not in this game.

Nairinhe

Nyladreas wrote: »

KovalskyNestor wrote: »

I agree with op, even as dps main, I feel bad for healers. I remember when we struggled to complete FL hm countless times with a healer, but after the healer switched to dps, we finished hm on second try.
This is also the reason why dps checks and dummy numbers are so prevalent in this game.

It's much easier to complete a dungeon if you "burn the boss" instead of trying to do mechanics. Mechanics are all the same "if you don't do this, everyone will get one shoted".

I've been saying this for years: lock boss HP for mechanics purposes. Then EVERYONE has to do them. Regardless of DPS.

EVERYONE in high end PvE will hate me (again) for saying this, but this is literally the only way to ensure fair role/gameplay for everybody.

Worse yet if DDs overdo it they might get multiple mechanics at the same time if noone pays attention to them and just keeps burning the boss after their "invulnerability while in mechanic" phase.

It's that or *** design... You can't really make it fair without HP locks tbh. Not in this game.

I love it when mechanics punish you for DPS at the wrong moment (like, final HoF boss) even if it takes a couple of wipes for a pug to understand how it works

Lintashi

Sadly, everything is correct. My group struggled with Fang lair hm, the second I switched to dd it was successfully completed. Same with Scalecaller peak. Healers and tanks are absolutely hated by Zos. It is not only dungeon design. Where is solo arenas for healers and tanks? Where is dummies to test healing and taunt rotations? What was made especially for healers and tanks in vampire rework? Why it is fine to limit healing in cyro to groups, but not damage? Imagine, no group - no pvp, it would sure boost perfomance! ( glad they promised to revert heals). In every new zone, how many new sets you see for healers and tanks, and how many targeted for damage dealers? Of all stuff, healers probably get 1 set, that is good for healing once a year, and meta stays the same for ages, because there is no variety. Mostly the same could be said for tanks.

preevious

Stop with that "3DD better that 2DD +heal" fallacy.

if 3 DDs are better than 2DDs+heal, then, the DDs are NOT good (or the heal).
The buffs/debuffs provided by a heal to 2 good DDS more than make up the damage output of a third. Especially since the healer deal some damage as well.

3 dps, 30k each, total 90k -
2 dps 30k each, + 10k thanks to the heal's buffs = 40k. Both DD do 80k .. the healer will at least make 10-15 ..90-95k better damage output ....And I don't even take the following into account :

With a heal, the DD can stop worrying about self heal (that costs DPS, cast something damaging instead), can leave the ring of the pale order in the bag (it costs DPS, too, duh, to lose a 5-items bonus), can afford to stand in the red sometimes (moving costs DPS, too).

The highest group damage my group have attained in 4 mans dungeons were ALWAYS with a heal. By a country mile. Having a good heals is awesome.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

AcadianPaladin

I knew there was a good reason why I adopted the very simple policy of avoiding ALL DLC dungeons.

Nairinhe

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I knew there was a good reason why I adopted the very simple policy of avoiding ALL DLC dungeons.

They are a ton of fun. On normal. Duo

FantasticFreddie

GreenHere wrote: »

Not to tell people how to play or anything, but... don't all good healers have the ability to slide themselves toward the damage-dealing end of the scale when needed?

Maybe not early on, but we're talking about endgame dungeon runs here. Pretty much all CP-capped dedicated healers I've known could pull 20K DPS if the situation called for it; or more, if they dropped a support set or two (again, as the situation called for). Swap some skills, gear, whatever else you need to, and whambalam -- you got yourself a ¾ DD ¼ Healer in the group. A lot of healers are just kind of static heal/buff bots that way overdo their role; I know they mean well, but they aren't helping as much as they think because their healing and buffing can only go so far before it's utterly wasted (whether it's by mechanics, DD's capabilities, or whatever). Top-tier healers know flexibility is required, and have the insight to know when.

I hesitate to play this card, as I generally hate the attitude, but this sounds like a "learn 2 play" issue. Sometimes support roles need to step outside the rigid definitions of their role that they're used to to get things done; sometimes the best way a healer can support their group is to pile on a little more pain and sacrifice a few of the feel-good vibes. If a few endgame, exceptionally hard, veteran Hard Mode dungeon fights enforce this lesson with merciless brutality... well, personally I think that's kind of a good thing! Gotta learn that over-healing and providing buffs & sustain 110% of the time while the rest of the team kind of carries you is a bad thing sometime, right?

Personally, I always took those fights as a big obvious "YOU SHOULD BE DOING THIS DIFFERENTLY" sign when I was the healer who was holding the group back. It was a valuable lesson when I (eventually) learned that sometimes the group benefits more if I heal enough and focus more on helping kill things faster. I respectfully submit that if you're a healer who doesn't have this flexibility in their toolkit, you've still got more room to grow on your way to mastery for that role.

I don't see it as bad game design -- quite the opposite, actually -- IF used sparingly/appropriately. If anything, I'd like softer-yet-more-direct instances that taught healers this lesson in the early game. We could use more-flexible healers, and more flexible healers!

This is kind of the POINT. And, no other role is expected to have this flexibility, just healers. If I wanted to wear pfgd/ms and double destro, I'd play a effing dps, not a healer.

Contaminate

A top end healer should be contributing sustain and damage. You can’t approach every dungeon the same way.

Moongrave Fane requires a dedicated healer to deal with the high ambient damage and heal absorption debuff in HM, else you’ll be making three people cycle barriers for every pillar phase.

In RoM the healer never gets the visions if you position correctly, and you can avoid them with a dodge roll.

Stone Garden requires both the healer and tank go heavy into sustain, with healers needing to pop Purge every few seconds once the lightning phase begins.

Similar story in March of Sacrifices HM. Definitely doable with 3 DPS, but unforgiving when lightning happens during hunt phase and when the spitters start stacking DoTs.

Frostvault HM can be done with a tank in full selfish sets, but it’s far more helpful to have a support in charge of keeping the tank healthy and knocking the bots off the side while the dps parse on the Stonekeeper.

Lair of Maarselok HM is much easier with a healer to purge in case of breath hitting and when the tank purges their debuff, also for holding interrupt duty on Selene.

Depths of Malatar final boss does benefit from a healer. You need to be full hp when Decrepify hits or it’ll nearly kill you. This is especially important in the execution phase. Having dedicated purges for the ice pillars and burning debuffs are also very valuable.

Yeah there’s definitely some earlier designs that missed the mark, I’ve got no love lost for Scalecaller Peak or Fang Lair, but the dungeon design has been much better these past few years.

FantasticFreddie

I know of exactly 1 fight where dps are expected to bring some heals, and it is getting patched in a week so they can't anymore.
I know of exactly one fight where a tank might be asked to wear a resto staff.
I know of multiple fights where healers are asked to double destro, be the brittle birch, do all the mechanics, taunt these adds, debuff and buff and still keep everyone topped off, and then people have the audacity to scoff that "no one needs a healer, l2p" when we want to go get Unchained or the worm cult personality.
I hate it. Hate it SO MUCH, and OP is right that is is incredibly frustrating as someone who enjoys the role.

Eta: to be clear, I will zen/mk in a double destro build when the situation calls for it, and pull respectable amounts of dps doing it, I just think it's dumb the game is designed in such a way that this nonsense is considered the norm.

phantasmalD

GreenHere wrote: »

Not to tell people how to play or anything, but... don't all good healers have the ability to slide themselves toward the damage-dealing end of the scale when needed?

Maybe not early on, but we're talking about endgame dungeon runs here. Pretty much all CP-capped dedicated healers I've known could pull 20K DPS if the situation called for it; or more, if they dropped a support set or two (again, as the situation called for). Swap some skills, gear, whatever else you need to, and whambalam -- you got yourself a ¾ DD ¼ Healer in the group. A lot of healers are just kind of static heal/buff bots that way overdo their role; I know they mean well, but they aren't helping as much as they think because their healing and buffing can only go so far before it's utterly wasted (whether it's by mechanics, DD's capabilities, or whatever). Top-tier healers know flexibility is required, and have the insight to know when.

I hesitate to play this card, as I generally hate the attitude, but this sounds like a "learn 2 play" issue. Sometimes support roles need to step outside the rigid definitions of their role that they're used to to get things done; sometimes the best way a healer can support their group is to pile on a little more pain and sacrifice a few of the feel-good vibes. If a few endgame, exceptionally hard, veteran Hard Mode dungeon fights enforce this lesson with merciless brutality... well, personally I think that's kind of a good thing! Gotta learn that over-healing and providing buffs & sustain 110% of the time while the rest of the team kind of carries you is a bad thing sometime, right?

Personally, I always took those fights as a big obvious "YOU SHOULD BE DOING THIS DIFFERENTLY" sign when I was the healer who was holding the group back. It was a valuable lesson when I (eventually) learned that sometimes the group benefits more if I heal enough and focus more on helping kill things faster. I respectfully submit that if you're a healer who doesn't have this flexibility in their toolkit, you've still got more room to grow on your way to mastery for that role.

I don't see it as bad game design -- quite the opposite, actually -- IF used sparingly/appropriately. If anything, I'd like softer-yet-more-direct instances that taught healers this lesson in the early game. We could use more-flexible healers, and more flexible healers!

The problem with this take is that nothing else in the game suggests that pure healers are supposed to be a burden.

1. The name 'Healer'. Why call them 'Healers' if healing is the lowest priority action, trumped by damage and buffing?
2. The activity finder defines healer as "Heals and protects allies, keeping them alive throughout the battle." No mention of damage at all.
3. The sets made specifically for healers pretty much never contain offensive self stat boosts.
4. There is a feature in a the game called 'Skills Advisor', that supposed to provide a good base for your chosen role. The healer specs have pretty much zero offensive skills.

If healers are supposed to learn to be flexible then why would 90% of the game teach you otherwise?
You can't "learn 2 play" when the game contradicts itself and sends mixed messages.

Contaminate

phantasmalD wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Not to tell people how to play or anything, but... don't all good healers have the ability to slide themselves toward the damage-dealing end of the scale when needed?

Maybe not early on, but we're talking about endgame dungeon runs here. Pretty much all CP-capped dedicated healers I've known could pull 20K DPS if the situation called for it; or more, if they dropped a support set or two (again, as the situation called for). Swap some skills, gear, whatever else you need to, and whambalam -- you got yourself a ¾ DD ¼ Healer in the group. A lot of healers are just kind of static heal/buff bots that way overdo their role; I know they mean well, but they aren't helping as much as they think because their healing and buffing can only go so far before it's utterly wasted (whether it's by mechanics, DD's capabilities, or whatever). Top-tier healers know flexibility is required, and have the insight to know when.

I hesitate to play this card, as I generally hate the attitude, but this sounds like a "learn 2 play" issue. Sometimes support roles need to step outside the rigid definitions of their role that they're used to to get things done; sometimes the best way a healer can support their group is to pile on a little more pain and sacrifice a few of the feel-good vibes. If a few endgame, exceptionally hard, veteran Hard Mode dungeon fights enforce this lesson with merciless brutality... well, personally I think that's kind of a good thing! Gotta learn that over-healing and providing buffs & sustain 110% of the time while the rest of the team kind of carries you is a bad thing sometime, right?

Personally, I always took those fights as a big obvious "YOU SHOULD BE DOING THIS DIFFERENTLY" sign when I was the healer who was holding the group back. It was a valuable lesson when I (eventually) learned that sometimes the group benefits more if I heal enough and focus more on helping kill things faster. I respectfully submit that if you're a healer who doesn't have this flexibility in their toolkit, you've still got more room to grow on your way to mastery for that role.

I don't see it as bad game design -- quite the opposite, actually -- IF used sparingly/appropriately. If anything, I'd like softer-yet-more-direct instances that taught healers this lesson in the early game. We could use more-flexible healers, and more flexible healers!

The problem with this take is that nothing else in the game suggests that pure healers are supposed to be a burden.

1. The name 'Healer'. Why call them 'Healers' if healing is the lowest priority action, trumped by damage and buffing?
2. The activity finder defines healer as "Heals and protects allies, keeping them alive throughout the battle." No mention of damage at all.
3. The sets made specifically for healers pretty much never contain offensive self stat boosts.
4. There is a feature in a the game called 'Skills Advisor', that supposed to provide a good base for your chosen role. The healer specs have pretty much zero offensive skills.

If healers are supposed to learn to be flexible then why would 90% of the game teach you otherwise?
You can't "learn 2 play" when the game contradicts itself and sends mixed messages.

ESO doesn’t teach players anything because overland question asks nothing of them. All worthwhile knowledge is gained from other players.

CP5

Contaminate wrote: »

In RoM the healer never gets the visions if you position correctly, and you can avoid them with a dodge roll.

Can't anymore, that was apparently a bug and has since been fixed.

hcbigdogdoghc

preevious wrote: »

Stop with that "3DD better that 2DD +heal" fallacy.

if 3 DDs are better than 2DDs+heal, then, the DDs are NOT good (or the heal).
The buffs/debuffs provided by a heal to 2 good DDS more than make up the damage output of a third. Especially since the healer deal some damage as well.

3 dps, 30k each, total 90k -
2 dps 30k each, + 10k thanks to the heal's buffs = 40k. Both DD do 80k .. the healer will at least make 10-15 ..90-95k better damage output ....And I don't even take the following into account :

With a heal, the DD can stop worrying about self heal (that costs DPS, cast something damaging instead), can leave the ring of the pale order in the bag (it costs DPS, too, duh, to lose a 5-items bonus), can afford to stand in the red sometimes (moving costs DPS, too).

The highest group damage my group have attained in 4 mans dungeons were ALWAYS with a heal. By a country mile. Having a good heals is awesome.

[snip]

I'm not arguing that 3DD is better than 2DD + healer, I am arguing that several dungeons are clearly NOT designed with a healer in mind (So they are badly designed), instead they are actually pushing players toward a 3DD composition. Case in point SCP hm, if it was designed to be cleared with 2 DDs there wouldn't be 3 ice statues to burn down. Or FL HM, where there's pretty much nothing to heal AT ALL. Or CT HM, where the boss literally have 20+ million freaking health for you to burn down, that's almost half of early vAA's boss healths, which is 12 man content.

JanTanhide

I have two Healers, one is full blown heals all the way with CP setup for pure healing. The other Healer is setup for damage but runs a healing bar.

For dungeon runs that need more damage I bring the second "Healer" and it does quite well. We blow through the dungeons with ease and when heals are needed it supports the role well.

But yes, I tend to agree with the OP, most of these DLC dungeons are indeed a DPS race.

Bloodroot Forge final boss fight in hard mode is killer on my Tank. It's more of a sustain race to me when it gets to three bosses if the DPS have not killed one of them. That is what usually kills me in hard mode, running out of stamina for blocking, roll dodging, sprinting from the ceiling, lava spurts, etc. Low DPS won't cut it in hard mode.

Nairinhe

JanTanhide wrote: »

Low DPS won't cut it in hard mode.

Low DPS isn't supposed to, no? It's hard mode after all

GreenHere

preevious wrote: »

Stop with that "3DD better that 2DD +heal" fallacy.

if 3 DDs are better than 2DDs+heal, then, the DDs are NOT good (or the heal).
The buffs/debuffs provided by a heal to 2 good DDS more than make up the damage output of a third. Especially since the healer deal some damage as well.

3 dps, 30k each, total 90k -
2 dps 30k each, + 10k thanks to the heal's buffs = 40k. Both DD do 80k .. the healer will at least make 10-15 ..90-95k better damage output ....And I don't even take the following into account :

With a heal, the DD can stop worrying about self heal (that costs DPS, cast something damaging instead), can leave the ring of the pale order in the bag (it costs DPS, too, duh, to lose a 5-items bonus), can afford to stand in the red sometimes (moving costs DPS, too).

The highest group damage my group have attained in 4 mans dungeons were ALWAYS with a heal. By a country mile. Having a good heals is awesome.

[snip]

This is definitely true in your tier of play, but not always for people in the lower tiers. I know you're right, and am not disputing it, but for those groups where ~20K DPS each is the norm, a healer would be hard-pressed to buff those two players up beyond the point that they could add their own DPS to the group total, ya know? As long as you can keep everyone alive, often it's just best to add your own damage into the mix instead of buffing up low damage dealers'.

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Not to tell people how to play or anything, but... don't all good healers have the ability to slide themselves toward the damage-dealing end of the scale when needed?

Maybe not early on, but we're talking about endgame dungeon runs here. Pretty much all CP-capped dedicated healers I've known could pull 20K DPS if the situation called for it; or more, if they dropped a support set or two (again, as the situation called for). Swap some skills, gear, whatever else you need to, and whambalam -- you got yourself a ¾ DD ¼ Healer in the group. A lot of healers are just kind of static heal/buff bots that way overdo their role; I know they mean well, but they aren't helping as much as they think because their healing and buffing can only go so far before it's utterly wasted (whether it's by mechanics, DD's capabilities, or whatever). Top-tier healers know flexibility is required, and have the insight to know when.

I hesitate to play this card, as I generally hate the attitude, but this sounds like a "learn 2 play" issue. Sometimes support roles need to step outside the rigid definitions of their role that they're used to to get things done; sometimes the best way a healer can support their group is to pile on a little more pain and sacrifice a few of the feel-good vibes. If a few endgame, exceptionally hard, veteran Hard Mode dungeon fights enforce this lesson with merciless brutality... well, personally I think that's kind of a good thing! Gotta learn that over-healing and providing buffs & sustain 110% of the time while the rest of the team kind of carries you is a bad thing sometime, right?

Personally, I always took those fights as a big obvious "YOU SHOULD BE DOING THIS DIFFERENTLY" sign when I was the healer who was holding the group back. It was a valuable lesson when I (eventually) learned that sometimes the group benefits more if I heal enough and focus more on helping kill things faster. I respectfully submit that if you're a healer who doesn't have this flexibility in their toolkit, you've still got more room to grow on your way to mastery for that role.

I don't see it as bad game design -- quite the opposite, actually -- IF used sparingly/appropriately. If anything, I'd like softer-yet-more-direct instances that taught healers this lesson in the early game. We could use more-flexible healers, and more flexible healers!

This is kind of the POINT. And, no other role is expected to have this flexibility, just healers. If I wanted to wear pfgd/ms and double destro, I'd play a effing dps, not a healer.

I mean, tanks are too. The meta has pretty much always been for them to just eek by on their own survivability & sustain, and make every available sacrifice they can to boost group DPS. I just didn't want to make my lengthy post longer by going into that. :P

One could argue that tanks often need more flexibility, depending on the group they get stuck matched with.

phantasmalD wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Not to tell people how to play or anything, but... don't all good healers have the ability to slide themselves toward the damage-dealing end of the scale when needed?

Maybe not early on, but we're talking about endgame dungeon runs here. Pretty much all CP-capped dedicated healers I've known could pull 20K DPS if the situation called for it; or more, if they dropped a support set or two (again, as the situation called for). Swap some skills, gear, whatever else you need to, and whambalam -- you got yourself a ¾ DD ¼ Healer in the group. A lot of healers are just kind of static heal/buff bots that way overdo their role; I know they mean well, but they aren't helping as much as they think because their healing and buffing can only go so far before it's utterly wasted (whether it's by mechanics, DD's capabilities, or whatever). Top-tier healers know flexibility is required, and have the insight to know when.

I hesitate to play this card, as I generally hate the attitude, but this sounds like a "learn 2 play" issue. Sometimes support roles need to step outside the rigid definitions of their role that they're used to to get things done; sometimes the best way a healer can support their group is to pile on a little more pain and sacrifice a few of the feel-good vibes. If a few endgame, exceptionally hard, veteran Hard Mode dungeon fights enforce this lesson with merciless brutality... well, personally I think that's kind of a good thing! Gotta learn that over-healing and providing buffs & sustain 110% of the time while the rest of the team kind of carries you is a bad thing sometime, right?

Personally, I always took those fights as a big obvious "YOU SHOULD BE DOING THIS DIFFERENTLY" sign when I was the healer who was holding the group back. It was a valuable lesson when I (eventually) learned that sometimes the group benefits more if I heal enough and focus more on helping kill things faster. I respectfully submit that if you're a healer who doesn't have this flexibility in their toolkit, you've still got more room to grow on your way to mastery for that role.

I don't see it as bad game design -- quite the opposite, actually -- IF used sparingly/appropriately. If anything, I'd like softer-yet-more-direct instances that taught healers this lesson in the early game. We could use more-flexible healers, and more flexible healers!

The problem with this take is that nothing else in the game suggests that pure healers are supposed to be a burden.

1. The name 'Healer'. Why call them 'Healers' if healing is the lowest priority action, trumped by damage and buffing?
2. The activity finder defines healer as "Heals and protects allies, keeping them alive throughout the battle." No mention of damage at all.
3. The sets made specifically for healers pretty much never contain offensive self stat boosts.
4. There is a feature in a the game called 'Skills Advisor', that supposed to provide a good base for your chosen role. The healer specs have pretty much zero offensive skills.

If healers are supposed to learn to be flexible then why would 90% of the game teach you otherwise?
You can't "learn 2 play" when the game contradicts itself and sends mixed messages.

Those are all fair points, and I agree with you.

But, for the hardest and most challenging content, everyone has to think and perform "outside the box" a little sometimes. Remember, none of what I said in my comment applies to normal dungeons at all, nor the vast majority of non-HM veteran content. AND, if you're in a group with good-to-great damage dealers, you're better off buffing them because it's just mathematically better for everyone, as laid out above. So you can stick to your role and in-no-way be a burden. Not all groups or situations are the same, though; hence my (and all great healers I've known) advocating for the flexibility to support your group as is needed at the time.

Sometimes tanks simply can't taunt enemies/bosses. Sometimes damage dealers have to do mechanics instead of dealing damage. And sometimes healers would be better off contributing damage than over-healing allies that aren't in need of it, or trying to buff up damage dealers who just don't have the ability to deal sufficient DPS.

You're not wrong, and I don't disagree with you... in principle. But the variable nature of playing with real (fallible) people, and the inconsistent design of ZOS' content over the years, kind of leads me to think that being flexible as an end-game player of any role is a worthwhile thing to embrace. That's all. I'm all for changing the design philosophy to not make players feel punished for adhering to their role in classic terms. But the stuff that's in-game already is what it is, and is unlikely to change. Why not adapt to what's on the playing field right now, ya know?


Flexibility > Rigidity is all I'm really trying to say.

Starlight_Whisper

RoM (Ruins of Mazzatun) last boss:
Thanks to the curse mechanic you have a 1/3 chance of not getting heals from the healer, a group that relies on the healer will wipe the moment healer get cursed.

See here I was about to root for this. But first this isn't rngess.

You just stand by door as soon mini boss is about to die. You don't get statue