Please, no more dungeons where you are straight up PUNISHED for having a healer in the group.

LioraValkyrie

Are you punished for having a healer in the group?

No, you are punished for having a player who only spams resto heavy attacks while waiting around to BoL when someone gets low on health. This is the healer equivalent of a pug DD who deals 30k or less solo dps.

A 2dd/1h/1t group can currently bring around 200k dps in a single target burst, which is what most dungeon fights amount to; a skilled healer provides a large portion of that support which often augments the dps by more than a 3rd DD over the course of any longer fights, while also allowing the tank to provide effective support as opposed to turtling and using all their resources on self heals.

Depending on class, skill and set synergy, 2dd/1h and 3dd can be equally effective in most situations. It's ultimately just a choice of playstyle at this point. I do think HPS should play a larger role in eso across the board, but that's another post.

Now onto the dungeons...

Ruins of Mazzatun HM: any dd who knows the pointy end of their staff should be able to kill the totem solo. This dungeon is old, the difficulty is not even comparable to more recent DLCs.
Bloodroot Forge HM: the boss should be splitting after the first lava with 2 dds; the little one should be executed to death within a few seconds of spawning.
Scalecaller Peak HM: I've duoed that, ice statue stage included.
Fang Lair HM: Also duoed that, and I'm pretty sure it's soloable.
Depths of Malater HM: What at first appears to be a dps race is in fact a survival slog - most dds just can't survive long enough to see it for what it is.
Castle Thorn HM: Duoed the execute, the only phase that really matters, after the other 2 group members died at 18%.

All the duos here are with 1 tank and 1 dd. In all cases, the dd wasn't from Hodor and pulls around 85k on the trial dummy.

From a tank main's perspective, a good healer in dungeons is more a luxury than anything else. It makes gameplay smoother and allows the whole group to play at their maximal potential, instead of having to plug the gaps left by their absence.

TDLR: if you think it can only be done with 3 dds, when in fact it can be done with 1, you should improve your dps before concluding that healers are a burden.

Starlight_Whisper

But yeah who designs dungeons because I want to know what happened to guy who made darkshade carverns two? It's not hard now but it's still a legit healer check for a lot of people, even on normal

divnyi

LioraValkyrie wrote: »

All the duos here are with 1 tank and 1 dd.

See, you don't even need healer. You need tank to survive 1shot mechanics, you need DDs to survive DPS checks. You don't need healer for anything. I'd like to see them making some dungeons where pure HPS is required.

heaven13

divnyi wrote: »

LioraValkyrie wrote: »

All the duos here are with 1 tank and 1 dd.

See, you don't even need healer. You need tank to survive 1shot mechanics, you need DDs to survive DPS checks. You don't need healer for anything. I'd like to see them making some dungeons where pure HPS is required.

Moongrave Fane HM would like to speak with you.

mobicera

preevious wrote: »

Stop with that "3DD better that 2DD +heal" fallacy.

if 3 DDs are better than 2DDs+heal, then, the DDs are NOT good (or the heal).
The buffs/debuffs provided by a heal to 2 good DDS more than make up the damage output of a third. Especially since the healer deal some damage as well.

3 dps, 30k each, total 90k -
2 dps 30k each, + 10k thanks to the heal's buffs = 40k. Both DD do 80k .. the healer will at least make 10-15 ..90-95k better damage output ....And I don't even take the following into account :

With a heal, the DD can stop worrying about self heal (that costs DPS, cast something damaging instead), can leave the ring of the pale order in the bag (it costs DPS, too, duh, to lose a 5-items bonus), can afford to stand in the red sometimes (moving costs DPS, too).

The highest group damage my group have attained in 4 mans dungeons were ALWAYS with a heal. By a country mile. Having a good heals is awesome.

[snip]

Can you please explain to me how I have a lapse in morals because I choose to run 3 dps 1 tank support runs?
I don't pug and everyone in the group is fully aware of no healer and prefers this.
All my 3 dps runs have been quicker and smoother than anytime I have ever brought a healer.
A decent tank can provide minor and major courage, altar, orbs and even ele drain if people require it as well as horn.
I fail to see how this is a lapse in morals, please do tell me why my preferred play style isn't moral?
I mean seriously....

Ratzkifal

Maybe ZOS thinks healers are just for trials and PvP?

phantasmalD

GreenHere wrote: »

Remember, none of what I said in my comment applies to normal dungeons at all, nor the vast majority of non-HM veteran content.

Isn't it the other way around and it applies even harder to normal dungeons?
If the optimal strategy for a hard fight is 3DD then it's obviously going to be the optimal strat for easier content as well.

FantasticFreddie

I made a tank just so I had something to bring to 4 man content when a healer wasn't wanted.

gatekeeper13

That's because it's a game based around mechanics that 1-shot and can be skipped through high dps. Instead, it should have mechanics that would require a steady supply of healing to neutralize high incoming dmg that would slowly kill than 1-shots.

FantasticFreddie

LioraValkyrie wrote: »

TDLR: if you think it can only be done with 3 dds, when in fact it can be done with 1, you should improve your dps before concluding that healers are a burden.

Notice you didn't need a healer for any of that content tho.
:pepehands:

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

Try doing a random vet as a main healer with CP150 dd's. One is a magsorc who sits 20m behind you and the other is a nightblade archer who's main attack is light attack. Dungeon and dungeon finding needs a change, but I fear there aren't enough people to make it the quality it needs to be.

Then you have pale order. Yeah....make it easier and easier, Zos

ESO has become 'that laser quest' game some of knew and went to in the 90's. You are 20+ y/o but a group birthday party for 10 year olds has joined the same match!

UGotBenched91

Miszou wrote: »

What did you do with all the time you saved by using acronyms instead of writing out the full name of each dungeon..?

Why even write this and why do people even like these types of responses. This was just a toxic wasteful reply. OP literally wrote all all the places. Your comment didn’t add anything to discussion or the thread and was just toxic.

Raltin

This needs more views.

preevious

mobicera wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Stop with that "3DD better that 2DD +heal" fallacy.

if 3 DDs are better than 2DDs+heal, then, the DDs are NOT good (or the heal).
The buffs/debuffs provided by a heal to 2 good DDS more than make up the damage output of a third. Especially since the healer deal some damage as well.

3 dps, 30k each, total 90k -
2 dps 30k each, + 10k thanks to the heal's buffs = 40k. Both DD do 80k .. the healer will at least make 10-15 ..90-95k better damage output ....And I don't even take the following into account :

With a heal, the DD can stop worrying about self heal (that costs DPS, cast something damaging instead), can leave the ring of the pale order in the bag (it costs DPS, too, duh, to lose a 5-items bonus), can afford to stand in the red sometimes (moving costs DPS, too).

The highest group damage my group have attained in 4 mans dungeons were ALWAYS with a heal. By a country mile. Having a good heals is awesome.

[snip]

Can you please explain to me how I have a lapse in morals because I choose to run 3 dps 1 tank support runs?
I don't pug and everyone in the group is fully aware of no healer and prefers this.
All my 3 dps runs have been quicker and smoother than anytime I have ever brought a healer.
A decent tank can provide minor and major courage, altar, orbs and even ele drain if people require it as well as horn.
I fail to see how this is a lapse in morals, please do tell me why my preferred play style isn't moral?
I mean seriously....

I don"t accuse you of anything, because, as you say : you don't pug.
If you don't pug, you are not a fake heal, since you never pretended to be one, you don't lie, and you are not imposing anything to anyone.
By all means, feel free to do your dungeons the way you see fit, you are perfectly in your rights doing so..

I might have been a bit overboard, speaking about lapses in moral, you weren't targeted at all.

I'll rephrase :

1. In my experience, 2DDs+ heal is stronger damage-wise than 3DDs in the overwhelming majority of times.
2. Fake heals, ie dds who queue as heal to gain time, are imposing their views on the other runners.
3. When confronted, said fake heals say '3dds are better, anyway'. It's wrong, and even if it wasn't, it's still not an acceptable behaviour.

You could understand, from what I say, that I was attacking your playstyle. I wasn't, It's a misunderstanding, and I'm sorry I spoke so clumsily.
If the group agree, even 4 tanks runs are acceptable, of course. The key point is play as you want, leave the others to play as they want.

GreenHere

phantasmalD wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Remember, none of what I said in my comment applies to normal dungeons at all, nor the vast majority of non-HM veteran content.

Isn't it the other way around and it applies even harder to normal dungeons?
If the optimal strategy for a hard fight is 3DD then it's obviously going to be the optimal strat for easier content as well.

TL;DR - My comment was made with vet HM boss fights in mind, and I think how my stance affects normal (and easier veteran) content is kind of irrelevant since you can get away with damn near anything in easier stuff. I get all wordy below (sorry), so feel free to skip it. That's basically the gist of it.


But the optimal strategy for hard fights isn't necessarily 3DD + a tank. In an ideal group you'd have two kick-ass damage dealers who are able to pump out way more DPS (because of your buffs and healing) than you could ever add yourself. Unfortunately, that bar is just too high a lot of the time for a lot of groups, so that is where my whole "Good healers know when to switch gears" argument comes into play. That specific break point isn't the same for every group or situation, obviously, so it only makes sense that a top-tier healer is ready to increase group damage (on the fly, however possible) when heals/survivability isn't the roadblock. Or vice versa. My comment was meant to be about the flexibility to move yourself up or down the damage/support scale as needed because the optimal strategy is simply unobtainable sometimes.

The landscape is just too varied for anyone (including, but not specific to, healers) to stubbornly decide they should be locked into only doing their role's classic duties, and nothing else. I mean, you can do it, but it's a disservice to yourself, your groups, and just getting things done smoothly a lot of the time.

In normals, and even a lot of easier veterans, this point becomes kind of moot since you could go in with 4 tanks and just light attack everything to death. It's not optimal, but it would work... eventually. But for vet HMs, sometimes you hit that wall that says, "LOL, NOOOOPE" and your group just will not get it done unless something changes. If you're the healer, and you can still keep everyone alive while boosting group damage by contributing more DPS yourself, and suddenly the group overcomes that previously-insurmountable wall... well, you're the hero in that situation! Good times! High fives! CONFETTI!! The alternatives were to give up or start replacing people (at the end of the dungeon, which feelsbadman).

All of this is a philosophy meant to make sense of the way thing are, though. I'd love it if dungeons (and the game overall) were balanced in a way that made healers feel needed and rewarded. I don't disagree with people who say that healers are in a bad place right now. But I am saying that a lot of healers make their own lives harder (and their group mates', too!) by clinging to the idea that they're not there to deal damage and asking/expecting them to do so is wrong. The game works better and is just more fun when the whole group works together to fill the gaps as they come along. If the healer toning down their over-healing (and buffing ~20K DPS up to ~22K DPS) to instead add another ~20K DPS to the group's total is what works, then it's a skill worth having. And if this thread were about the same exact thing, but regarding Tanks, I'd be saying the same thing since it applies almost equally. At least, in my experience. But I'm comfortable shifting gears like this, so I'm biased; and I'm also not a full-time (nor top-tier) healer. These are just some random scrub's opinions. So, take it all with a few big ol' grains of salt, I guess. :P

amm7sb14_ESO

GreenHere wrote: »

Not to tell people how to play or anything, but... don't all good healers have the ability to slide themselves toward the damage-dealing end of the scale when needed?

Maybe not early on, but we're talking about endgame dungeon runs here. Pretty much all CP-capped dedicated healers I've known could pull 20K DPS if the situation called for it; or more, if they dropped a support set or two (again, as the situation called for). Swap some skills, gear, whatever else you need to, and whambalam -- you got yourself a ¾ DD ¼ Healer in the group. A lot of healers are just kind of static heal/buff bots that way overdo their role; I know they mean well, but they aren't helping as much as they think because their healing and buffing can only go so far before it's utterly wasted (whether it's by mechanics, DD's capabilities, or whatever). Top-tier healers know flexibility is required, and have the insight to know when.

I hesitate to play this card, as I generally hate the attitude, but this sounds like a "learn 2 play" issue. Sometimes support roles need to step outside the rigid definitions of their role that they're used to to get things done; sometimes the best way a healer can support their group is to pile on a little more pain and sacrifice a few of the feel-good vibes. If a few endgame, exceptionally hard, veteran Hard Mode dungeon fights enforce this lesson with merciless brutality... well, personally I think that's kind of a good thing! Gotta learn that over-healing and providing buffs & sustain 110% of the time while the rest of the team kind of carries you is a bad thing sometime, right?

Personally, I always took those fights as a big obvious "YOU SHOULD BE DOING THIS DIFFERENTLY" sign when I was the healer who was holding the group back. It was a valuable lesson when I (eventually) learned that sometimes the group benefits more if I heal enough and focus more on helping kill things faster. I respectfully submit that if you're a healer who doesn't have this flexibility in their toolkit, you've still got more room to grow on your way to mastery for that role.

I don't see it as bad game design -- quite the opposite, actually -- IF used sparingly/appropriately. If anything, I'd like softer-yet-more-direct instances that taught healers this lesson in the early game. We could use more-flexible healers, and more flexible healers!

This whole post harkens back to the "this game revolves around DPS" attitude that was mentioned earlier in the thread.

This attitude will be among the top reasons that eventually drive me away from the game when the time comes.

amm7sb14_ESO

Lintashi wrote: »

Sadly, everything is correct. My group struggled with Fang lair hm, the second I switched to dd it was successfully completed. Same with Scalecaller peak. Healers and tanks are absolutely hated by Zos. It is not only dungeon design. Where is solo arenas for healers and tanks? Where is dummies to test healing and taunt rotations? What was made especially for healers and tanks in vampire rework? Why it is fine to limit healing in cyro to groups, but not damage? Imagine, no group - no pvp, it would sure boost perfomance! ( glad they promised to revert heals). In every new zone, how many new sets you see for healers and tanks, and how many targeted for damage dealers? Of all stuff, healers probably get 1 set, that is good for healing once a year, and meta stays the same for ages, because there is no variety. Mostly the same could be said for tanks.

That, and the tank and healer sets that we do get, we aren't supposed to wear, because at least as a tank, I'm expected to wear sets for DPS (*cough*Alkosh*cough*) instead of sets for tanks (*cough*"sELfiSh sEtS"*cough*), so even when tanks and healers are needed, we aren't allowed to actually play AS tanks and healers, because DPS expect us to just wear the sets that they don't want to.

GreenHere

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Lintashi wrote: »

Sadly, everything is correct. My group struggled with Fang lair hm, the second I switched to dd it was successfully completed. Same with Scalecaller peak. Healers and tanks are absolutely hated by Zos. It is not only dungeon design. Where is solo arenas for healers and tanks? Where is dummies to test healing and taunt rotations? What was made especially for healers and tanks in vampire rework? Why it is fine to limit healing in cyro to groups, but not damage? Imagine, no group - no pvp, it would sure boost perfomance! ( glad they promised to revert heals). In every new zone, how many new sets you see for healers and tanks, and how many targeted for damage dealers? Of all stuff, healers probably get 1 set, that is good for healing once a year, and meta stays the same for ages, because there is no variety. Mostly the same could be said for tanks.

That, and the tank and healer sets that we do get, we aren't supposed to wear, because at least as a tank, I'm expected to wear sets for DPS (*cough*Alkosh*cough*) instead of sets for tanks (*cough*"sELfiSh sEtS"*cough*), so even when tanks and healers are needed, we aren't allowed to actually play AS tanks and healers, because DPS expect us to just wear the sets that they don't want to.

Yep. This is why I've pretty much entirely given up on following the meta, or grouping with people who insist upon it. Sure, my runs don't always go super smooth or fast this way, and the "need" for contributing DPS as a healer is often greater than if I were with high-tier DDs, but that's a trade-off I'm willing to make personally.

But I do understand being put off by how things are. Like I said, I'd like the game to be balanced differently than it is, but that won't stop me from trying to adapt for completing the things I wanna complete. For the people who don't wanna make such compromises, it's a tough situation, no doubt.

Runefang

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Lintashi wrote: »

Sadly, everything is correct. My group struggled with Fang lair hm, the second I switched to dd it was successfully completed. Same with Scalecaller peak. Healers and tanks are absolutely hated by Zos. It is not only dungeon design. Where is solo arenas for healers and tanks? Where is dummies to test healing and taunt rotations? What was made especially for healers and tanks in vampire rework? Why it is fine to limit healing in cyro to groups, but not damage? Imagine, no group - no pvp, it would sure boost perfomance! ( glad they promised to revert heals). In every new zone, how many new sets you see for healers and tanks, and how many targeted for damage dealers? Of all stuff, healers probably get 1 set, that is good for healing once a year, and meta stays the same for ages, because there is no variety. Mostly the same could be said for tanks.

That, and the tank and healer sets that we do get, we aren't supposed to wear, because at least as a tank, I'm expected to wear sets for DPS (*cough*Alkosh*cough*) instead of sets for tanks (*cough*"sELfiSh sEtS"*cough*), so even when tanks and healers are needed, we aren't allowed to actually play AS tanks and healers, because DPS expect us to just wear the sets that they don't want to.

It's not because DPS expect you to wear them, its because ZOS designed a game where its the optimal strategy.

amm7sb14_ESO

GreenHere wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Lintashi wrote: »

Sadly, everything is correct. My group struggled with Fang lair hm, the second I switched to dd it was successfully completed. Same with Scalecaller peak. Healers and tanks are absolutely hated by Zos. It is not only dungeon design. Where is solo arenas for healers and tanks? Where is dummies to test healing and taunt rotations? What was made especially for healers and tanks in vampire rework? Why it is fine to limit healing in cyro to groups, but not damage? Imagine, no group - no pvp, it would sure boost perfomance! ( glad they promised to revert heals). In every new zone, how many new sets you see for healers and tanks, and how many targeted for damage dealers? Of all stuff, healers probably get 1 set, that is good for healing once a year, and meta stays the same for ages, because there is no variety. Mostly the same could be said for tanks.

That, and the tank and healer sets that we do get, we aren't supposed to wear, because at least as a tank, I'm expected to wear sets for DPS (*cough*Alkosh*cough*) instead of sets for tanks (*cough*"sELfiSh sEtS"*cough*), so even when tanks and healers are needed, we aren't allowed to actually play AS tanks and healers, because DPS expect us to just wear the sets that they don't want to.

Yep. This is why I've pretty much entirely given up on following the meta, or grouping with people who insist upon it. Sure, my runs don't always go super smooth or fast this way, and the "need" for contributing DPS as a healer is often greater than if I were with high-tier DDs, but that's a trade-off I'm willing to make personally.

But I do understand being put off by how things are. Like I said, I'd like the game to be balanced differently than it is, but that won't stop me from trying to adapt for completing the things I wanna complete. For the people who don't wanna make such compromises, it's a tough situation, no doubt.

I don't follow meta either. Never have, never will. I have a real problem with other players telling me how *my* characters should be built and played. Each of my characters follows a theme or concept, and I build my characters and sets to play within that intended concept. Luckily, I roll with a guild that also doesn't insist upon meta builds, and I've tanked my way up to guild tank for vet trial runs.

hcbigdogdoghc

Umm..again, this post is about bad dungeon designs that exclude healers, not that healers are not needed.

amm7sb14_ESO

Runefang wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Lintashi wrote: »

Sadly, everything is correct. My group struggled with Fang lair hm, the second I switched to dd it was successfully completed. Same with Scalecaller peak. Healers and tanks are absolutely hated by Zos. It is not only dungeon design. Where is solo arenas for healers and tanks? Where is dummies to test healing and taunt rotations? What was made especially for healers and tanks in vampire rework? Why it is fine to limit healing in cyro to groups, but not damage? Imagine, no group - no pvp, it would sure boost perfomance! ( glad they promised to revert heals). In every new zone, how many new sets you see for healers and tanks, and how many targeted for damage dealers? Of all stuff, healers probably get 1 set, that is good for healing once a year, and meta stays the same for ages, because there is no variety. Mostly the same could be said for tanks.

That, and the tank and healer sets that we do get, we aren't supposed to wear, because at least as a tank, I'm expected to wear sets for DPS (*cough*Alkosh*cough*) instead of sets for tanks (*cough*"sELfiSh sEtS"*cough*), so even when tanks and healers are needed, we aren't allowed to actually play AS tanks and healers, because DPS expect us to just wear the sets that they don't want to.

It's not because DPS expect you to wear them, its because ZOS designed a game where its the optimal strategy.

But it is on the community / DPS who *only accept the most optimal strategy, and don't accept any other way of doing things, even tho it can and is successful. BiS / "most optimal" is not required for *any* content in this game.

spartaxoxo

I disagree with you on a couple of these, as I personally find Ruins of Mazzaztun and Scale Caller Peak hard modes easier with a healer. But, your general point is spot on. Healers aren't given much to do or actively hindered from performing their jobs, meanwhile higher dps lets you skip mechanics or greatly minimize them to the point it barely feels like the same fight. The end result is most often it's better to bring a 3rd dps than a healer.

hcbigdogdoghc

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

RoM (Ruins of Mazzatun) last boss:
Thanks to the curse mechanic you have a 1/3 chance of not getting heals from the healer, a group that relies on the healer will wipe the moment healer get cursed.

See here I was about to root for this. But first this isn't rngess.

You just stand by door as soon mini boss is about to die. You don't get statue

But standing by the door to avoid curse is clearly not the intended strategy, it's an exploit. This boss was designed from the ground up for healers to be statued 33% of the time.

Basaz

preevious wrote: »

Stop with that "3DD better that 2DD +heal" fallacy.

if 3 DDs are better than 2DDs+heal, then, the DDs are NOT good (or the heal).
The buffs/debuffs provided by a heal to 2 good DDS more than make up the damage output of a third. Especially since the healer deal some damage as well.

3 dps, 30k each, total 90k -
2 dps 30k each, + 10k thanks to the heal's buffs = 40k. Both DD do 80k .. the healer will at least make 10-15 ..90-95k better damage output ....And I don't even take the following into account :

With a heal, the DD can stop worrying about self heal (that costs DPS, cast something damaging instead), can leave the ring of the pale order in the bag (it costs DPS, too, duh, to lose a 5-items bonus), can afford to stand in the red sometimes (moving costs DPS, too).

The highest group damage my group have attained in 4 mans dungeons were ALWAYS with a heal. By a country mile. Having a good heals is awesome.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

I'm fairly new to veteran dungeons and HM, although I've put some few hundred hours into the game. I heal or tank in dungeons and I am leaning more towards your reasoning. As a healer, I debuff enemies, I buffs magicka/stamina regen, I use symphony of blades (more regen), I use Spell Power set (+weapon damage), I use a lot of heals with mystic orb (healing version, bonus regen syn). I say at times, 'if it doesn't 1-shot you, you can stand in it'. As long as they survive a 1-shot, they 100% HP after 1 second. In those regards I feel like I contribute way more than I would as just another DD.

This is more noticable when I DD myself or tank, when the healer is a half DD half heal, the lack of regen, heals and buffs. Same as tanking vs not tanking and the tank doesn't bother stacking the enemies. Absolutely not a requirement in my book, but you do notice how much longer it takes to clear groups. Especially when you got two not so strong DDs in the group.

renne

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I disagree with you on a couple of these, as I personally find Ruins of Mazzaztun and Scale Caller Peak hard modes easier with a healer. But, your general point is spot on. Healers aren't given much to do or actively hindered from performing their jobs, meanwhile higher dps lets you skip mechanics or greatly minimize them to the point it barely feels like the same fight. The end result is most often it's better to bring a 3rd dps than a healer.

Except a good healer gives you higher DPS.

So perhaps it's not that healers aren't needed or it's "better" to bring a third DPS, but that people think that they have to bring a third DPS to clear the content because they're not running with good healers or the healers they've run with literally only stand still and spam regen.

GlorphNoldorin

<snip>

TDLR: if you think it can only be done with 3 dds, when in fact it can be done with 1, you should improve your dps before concluding that healers are a burden.[/quote]


You just supported the OP argument that healers arent required.......aka a burden

Grandchamp1989

Runefang wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Lintashi wrote: »

Sadly, everything is correct. My group struggled with Fang lair hm, the second I switched to dd it was successfully completed. Same with Scalecaller peak. Healers and tanks are absolutely hated by Zos. It is not only dungeon design. Where is solo arenas for healers and tanks? Where is dummies to test healing and taunt rotations? What was made especially for healers and tanks in vampire rework? Why it is fine to limit healing in cyro to groups, but not damage? Imagine, no group - no pvp, it would sure boost perfomance! ( glad they promised to revert heals). In every new zone, how many new sets you see for healers and tanks, and how many targeted for damage dealers? Of all stuff, healers probably get 1 set, that is good for healing once a year, and meta stays the same for ages, because there is no variety. Mostly the same could be said for tanks.

That, and the tank and healer sets that we do get, we aren't supposed to wear, because at least as a tank, I'm expected to wear sets for DPS (*cough*Alkosh*cough*) instead of sets for tanks (*cough*"sELfiSh sEtS"*cough*), so even when tanks and healers are needed, we aren't allowed to actually play AS tanks and healers, because DPS expect us to just wear the sets that they don't want to.

It's not because DPS expect you to wear them, its because ZOS designed a game where its the optimal strategy.

It's the optimal strategy if your tank doesn't need the extra survivability of selfish sets.
A dead tank isn't optimal for anything. He should be allowed to assess what's needed for himself without the default answer being "Go Yolna-Alkosh"

Too often DDs and raid leaders got the default mentality of "support the group or F-off"

Tanks and healers simply being present and doing their job supports the group in itself.

Every group is different, every support is different but supports doesn't get to choose how to best support their group, even though they're the supports. If a Tank think he needs a selfish set to comfortably get through a tough fight, he should be allowed. If a healer think a set such as Gossamer is valuable because the team takes a crap ton of AOE damage, supports should be trusted in how they can fulfill their task.

If survival is not a priority sure you can slap on whatever you need for the group. I just can't stand that the default mentality is "Do this or..." Unless you're in a leaderboard scoring settings the extra 200 spell damage on 2dds in a dungeon doesn't make or break the run and if it does you need better DDs.

Athan1

The pale order was a clear indication that the game is moving into a direction where healers won't be needed anymore. The fact that you can wear this ring and enter group content is outrageous. As a healer, I now get paranoid if my heals are actually working on everyone and whether someone is wearing the cursed ring and I should stop healing them. Bad game design decision.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

preevious wrote: »

Stop with that "3DD better that 2DD +heal" fallacy.

if 3 DDs are better than 2DDs+heal, then, the DDs are NOT good (or the heal).
The buffs/debuffs provided by a heal to 2 good DDS more than make up the damage output of a third. Especially since the healer deal some damage as well.

3 dps, 30k each, total 90k -
2 dps 30k each, + 10k thanks to the heal's buffs = 40k. Both DD do 80k .. the healer will at least make 10-15 ..90-95k better damage output ....And I don't even take the following into account :

With a heal, the DD can stop worrying about self heal (that costs DPS, cast something damaging instead), can leave the ring of the pale order in the bag (it costs DPS, too, duh, to lose a 5-items bonus), can afford to stand in the red sometimes (moving costs DPS, too).

The highest group damage my group have attained in 4 mans dungeons were ALWAYS with a heal. By a country mile. Having a good heals is awesome.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Agreed. However, I would like to see Zos take it one step further like they did with Stone Garden hardmode, specifically Arkasis. That was such fun to heal on a healer, and it really made the tank and healer coordinate together for best results, while also punishing ignoring mechanics. Excellent design that I would like to see implemented standardly in the future. And I also put a big, big agree on the abolishment of one shot mechanics in favour of more overall damage for the same reason. I hate roll dodging on a tank, and a healer cannot heal through one shots, which isn't fair.