I said yes; I'll outline some of the reasons below in the form of counter-points to a few arguments for the other side. I'll spoiler my answers because I'd rather it not look like a massive wall of text and be a little easier to read.

1. "No, because the EXP Curve is being adjusted to allow new players to catch up to old ones."
2. "No, because any other time they've raised the cap the curve wasn't adjusted." 3. "No, because you aren't actually losing out on any time spent enjoying the game."
4. "No, because it only helps old players maintain their gap."
5. "No, because seeing people start at 1600 will discourage new players from wanting to continue playing seeing such a huge level to get to."
6. "No, because Enlightenment isn't factored in and you could actually see your level go down."
7. "No, because ZOS can't see the total EXP players have earned."
8. "No, because you were already awarded the benefit of being able to go above the cap which no other MMO does."
If any of this, literally any of it, was about 'allowing new players to catch up', then what ZOS would do very easily is implement a better Enlightenment System. My suggestion? You receive a 10x EXP gain for the first 100 CP, 9x for the next 100, 8x for the next 100, etc etc. This power levels someone (in the new system) to a baseline 1k CP points before they run into the 'actual' curve. After that normal 'daily' Enlightenment can be active but this does a far better job of actually helping new players along than any of this mish-mash bullcrap about the curve being adjusted for new players. Adjusting the curve now does nothing for new players who will join next month, six months, a year away. People will still be far ahead of them and it will still take them an unreasonable amount of time to reach an 'enjoyable' level of CP. All this does is temporarily sedates the player CP gap for two months at best.

Ended up in an argument with someone who wanted everyone to be placed at 2,000 CP. My argument against his desire was this very thing and I would absolutely love it if the CP scaled up on release of 2.0 to total earned experience. However, if the devs don't do this I wouldn't mind too much. I'd just be a little sad.

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Regarding #1:
The new curve is most definitely a catch up mechanic (although a weak one).
It does mean that newer players close the CP gap to longer term players faster than they would under the old curve.
Consider several players at this point in time, at 0CP, 400CP, 800CP, 1200CP, 1600CP for instance. So everyone starts 400CP apart.
Lets say that all players play and gain xp at the same rate over the next unspecified period, and they all gain 50mil XP.

So under the new xp curve, all of the gaps are smaller in terms of CP than they would have been under the old curve.
Thus it would appear to me that the change in xp curve will function as a catch up mechanic, albeit not actually a very big one, and certainly nothing to the degree of your last suggestion.
(Note: there are some specific CP ranges where the gap doesn’t always get smaller in CP2.0 for the same xp due the point the 1.5 multiplier starts applying being in a different place under the two curves, but this corrects back to smaller gains eventually as more xp/cp is gained)

I'll start off with thanks for such a detailed reply! It's something the devs would probably want to see instead of having to mull it over themselves.

So while it's true that the gaps are smaller the catch up mechanic doesn't work as well here due to the integral difference in active-useful level.
In the current system that is considered to be CP810; in the new system after their most recent changes to stars it's CP 1750. So from those who have attempted to test (which is hard to do since they won't provide a max-level template) they have averaged that the DPS you can get now at CP810 is equivalent to what you could get at CP1750. These are very rough averages from what I have read so take them lightly but I think we all know that we are losing power since the system itself is changing and climbing higher.

So while the curve does shrink the effective level of 150 million EXP does not; in the current system that's capped while in the new system (assuming XP carryover) an 810 would be moved to CP1006 (using your table). This is better for them because it does put them closer to their original level of power but they are still 744 CP from where they were.

So despite being a 'catchup' you end up needing 250 million EXP to get around CP1719 and your finally back where you essentially already were before the change happened. Now I'm not asking to be moved for free to where my DPS, Stats, and Capabilities won't change. That's part of the game, stuff gets nerfed. That's an MMO.

But the EXP values I earned shouldn't be diluted as it's time I spent that is accurately recorded within the game, to disregard that (to me) is to disregard my time spent playing your game for the past few years.

Now, on to your last suggestion. Beyond being a much stronger catch up mechanic, how is this any different than simply lowering the xp required for those first however many hundred xp?
Its basically like lowering the requirement for all CP under CP1000 by whatever amount the multiple is. So its basically the equivalent of changing the curve, just in a different way.
It would however be a change that is more targeted towards the front end of CP, so in that sense it would be a better catch up mechanic than the current way the curve has been changed.

Because you didn't lower the XP required; you upped Enlightenment for lower level CP players which is an true catch-up mechanic. I'm not losing on any XP I've acquired. I'm not being told "Hey, Timmy just joined the game so since he's behind you we are gonna shrink your XP pool from the 150 million you've accumulated to 50 million so it's easier for him to catch up and also you need to level up 800 more times."

That's the difference to me; one is a targeted move to actually address the issue at the root which is older players being so far ahead of newer ones. The change doesn't actually affect older players at all since they aren't having their total XP diluted nor are they losing power; newer players are gaining power at an exponentially faster rate but at the same measurements that the veterans had to do so. This is a very loose and poor analogy I shall preface with that.

Xanathar has 60,000 Gold. This is considered the 'average' amount of gold in his game for a veteran player to have.
Jones just joined the game and he has 1,000 Gold.

Instead of adding a catchup mechanic for Jones to make the other 59,000 Gold we decide that 1,000 is the new standard and Xanathars gold is now only worth 5,000 gold while also adding a mechanic that will make Jones get 4,000 more gold as he levels to max cap but we didn't change any of the store prices. That's roughly what is happening here; the gold is XP and is being removed from the game because it's deemed problematic for players to catch up to. The CP points however still cost the same amount, 1 level, but now the guy who could have bought anything he wanted with 60k has to pick and choose while new players haven't actually gained or lost anything. Xanathar will still continue earning gold at his higher level at a faster rate due to more play options. Jones will still never catch up unless Xanathar stops playing for a long haitus.

By frontloading the earliest CP levels Xanathar doesn't lose anything, he doesn't care if Jones is given a new system that will give him 59,000 Gold as he levels up. By the time Jones gets to Xanathars level Xanathar will have made another 120,000. But that type of catch up system doesn't inconveniance or take away from anyone; it only helps the new player reach a baseline state that will allow him to join Xanathar as a fellow player.

And, in terms of the context of the primary question of this thread - whether CP should be adjusted to fit the new xp curve – the exact same argument to adjust existing players CP could be made under your suggested enlightenment change.

Consider:
I am going to use a simplified version to make this a bit simpler for me to calculate, sp lets say players under CP1000 get an extra 4x XP boost at all times, as some form of extra enlightenment, but the xp curve remains unchanged.
So instead of requiring 336,628,454 XP to get to CP1000 (CP1.0 xp value), it would now effectively only take 336,628,454/4 = 84,157,113 XP of XP rewards, ie: the first 84,157,113 XP a player earns gets multiplied by 4.

But what if I was already CP1000. I could say:
I have already earned 336,628,454 XP.
But, if the new enlightenment change existed when I earned that, the first 84,157,113 XP of it would have been multiplied by 4.
So I should actually have and extra 3*84,157,113 = 252,471,339 XP
So I should actually have 336,628,454 + 252,471,339 = 589,099,793 XP which would mean I should actually be CP1273 under the old curve.
Does that sound right? Should I be “given” that extra 252 mil xp, because that’s what I would have if the new xp boon system existed when I earned my xp?
Considered like this, it doesn’t seem to me to make sense to be added. And yet, this is exactly the same thing that asking for a CP conversion to the new xp/cp curve is asking for.

I don't agree with calling the CP conversion the same thing as a catch up mechanic. Games introduce catch up mechanics to new players all the time but the older players never receive compensation; and that is exactly my issue here. If this was a catch up mechanic targeting new players I'd be perfectly fine. If they told me "Hey we are only shrinking the first 800 levels" I'd say "Well I already spent my 8 months at level 800 and I'm not losing any of my power."

In this scenario though I am losing power; as many parses have attested from PTS to live you do not acquire the same amount of power as currently exists at 810. This is why I view it as a 'punishment' to players who have already hit the original cap and their banked XP is essentially being wiped. Yes we can climb another 400-600 levels to get where we were but it doesn't change that we essentially were shirked time getting there without a good valid reason (and yes that is all I want; a good and valid reason for why it's necessary to not carry over XP values. And the 'catch-up' reason isn't a good or valid one.)

Generally speaking though, I think this actually identifies the true problem going on here:

Joy_Division wrote: »

This wouldn't be an issue if they designed the CP system as Brian introduced it on the Stream.

If there wasn;t much vertical progression and if we actually had to make choices what to slot, then I wouldn't care how ZOS transferred my CP because it wouldn't make any or much difference. I simply would have more options than lesser CP players, not necessary more raw power. Which sounds reasonable to me.

Yes this alone is an issue in itself; unhooking stars so that no one has to take them in a progressive order is the first step to fixing this. There isn't any reason with the new system to have stars linked together except one; inconveniance to scaling. Making us have to acquire certain stars first wastes points we care about while ensuring we don't get the 'better' stuff first. But it also limits new players to being forced to take crafting stars that they might not care about over joining friends in PVP or Hardmode Progressions.

Kittytravel wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Regarding #1:
The new curve is most definitely a catch up mechanic (although a weak one).
It does mean that newer players close the CP gap to longer term players faster than they would under the old curve.
Consider several players at this point in time, at 0CP, 400CP, 800CP, 1200CP, 1600CP for instance. So everyone starts 400CP apart.
Lets say that all players play and gain xp at the same rate over the next unspecified period, and they all gain 50mil XP.

So under the new xp curve, all of the gaps are smaller in terms of CP than they would have been under the old curve.
Thus it would appear to me that the change in xp curve will function as a catch up mechanic, albeit not actually a very big one, and certainly nothing to the degree of your last suggestion.
(Note: there are some specific CP ranges where the gap doesn’t always get smaller in CP2.0 for the same xp due the point the 1.5 multiplier starts applying being in a different place under the two curves, but this corrects back to smaller gains eventually as more xp/cp is gained)

I'll start off with thanks for such a detailed reply! It's something the devs would probably want to see instead of having to mull it over themselves.

So while it's true that the gaps are smaller the catch up mechanic doesn't work as well here due to the integral difference in active-useful level.
In the current system that is considered to be CP810; in the new system after their most recent changes to stars it's CP 1750. So from those who have attempted to test (which is hard to do since they won't provide a max-level template) they have averaged that the DPS you can get now at CP810 is equivalent to what you could get at CP1750. These are very rough averages from what I have read so take them lightly but I think we all know that we are losing power since the system itself is changing and climbing higher.

So while the curve does shrink the effective level of 150 million EXP does not; in the current system that's capped while in the new system (assuming XP carryover) an 810 would be moved to CP1006 (using your table). This is better for them because it does put them closer to their original level of power but they are still 744 CP from where they were.

So despite being a 'catchup' you end up needing 250 million EXP to get around CP1719 and your finally back where you essentially already were before the change happened. Now I'm not asking to be moved for free to where my DPS, Stats, and Capabilities won't change. That's part of the game, stuff gets nerfed. That's an MMO.

But the EXP values I earned shouldn't be diluted as it's time I spent that is accurately recorded within the game, to disregard that (to me) is to disregard my time spent playing your game for the past few years.

Firstly, thanks, I enjoy having these sort of discussions and seeing the thoughts of others like yourself, especially when they also give well presented or detailed replies so I do try to do the same when I provide my own. Leads to walls of text though...

Anyway, to me the fundamental problem here is that our 810CP is now not the same power level as 810Cp will be in the new system leading to players at this level (810CP) feeling a power loss, but this is a separate issue to the perceived xp loss or dilution. However, this problem causes players to seek out ways that they could be back closer to their original power, and the idea of carrying over xp is something that will bring them back closer. Which I understand, but to me its not a "good" fix and is just masking the actual cause of the issue - the sudden shift in how much power we get from our CP and over what range we obtain that power ie: power gained over 0-810CP is now instead gained over 0 - ~1750/2000CP)

(also FYI my table isn't the carryover equivalents, rather its the CP players would get to if there was no carryover and then they gained xp from that point under either of the two systems, as a comparison)

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Now, on to your last suggestion. Beyond being a much stronger catch up mechanic, how is this any different than simply lowering the xp required for those first however many hundred xp?
Its basically like lowering the requirement for all CP under CP1000 by whatever amount the multiple is. So its basically the equivalent of changing the curve, just in a different way.
It would however be a change that is more targeted towards the front end of CP, so in that sense it would be a better catch up mechanic than the current way the curve has been changed.

Because you didn't lower the XP required; you upped Enlightenment for lower level CP players which is an true catch-up mechanic. I'm not losing on any XP I've acquired. I'm not being told "Hey, Timmy just joined the game so since he's behind you we are gonna shrink your XP pool from the 150 million you've accumulated to 50 million so it's easier for him to catch up and also you need to level up 800 more times."

But adding extra enlightenment for those under CP is functionally the same as lowering the requirement to get that CP.
ie:
If we keep the curve unchanged (ie as per CP1.0) but add an extra always on enlightenment multiplier of say 2x for while under CP1000.
Under CP1.0 a player needs ~ 336mil xp to reach CP1000
Lets say for examples sake under these conditions a player does say some group of a quests, with a total nominal total xp reward of 118mil xp gained in doing so. The enlightenment causes this to be doubled to 336mil xp, so the player is now CP1000.

Alternatively, we don't add enlightenment and instead change the xp requirements to get to CP1000, halving the required xp to reach CP1000 (like lowering the curve for a section of CP). So the xp required to reach CP1000 is lowered to 118mil.
Again, lets say under these conditions a player does the exact same set of quests as above, so they earn 118mil xp.
They are now CP1000.

So both cases give the same resulting CP for the same set of gameplay performed. Sure the total xp gained isn't the same but thats just a means to an end - which is CP. This is what I mean by using enlightenment as an extra factor is functionally identical to lower the xp curve by the same proportion in terms of the resulting CP gain.
The only difference is a perception difference of how much total xp was "earned". The relationship between CP earned, and hence power, to gameplay time/effort etc is the same.

The difference in this example here in comparison to what has actually been implemented, is that ZOS have lowered the xp requirement across the entire CP range, not just the first part.
This could effectively be viewed as adding extra enlightenment for all players that is on at all times (with the amount varying somewhat depending on your current CP amount). This is why even though I said it is technically a catch up mechanic, I agree it isn't actually a very strong one.

That's the difference to me; one is a targeted move to actually address the issue at the root which is older players being so far ahead of newer ones. The change doesn't actually affect older players at all since they aren't having their total XP diluted nor are they losing power; newer players are gaining power at an exponentially faster rate but at the same measurements that the veterans had to do so. This is a very loose and poor analogy I shall preface with that.

Xanathar has 60,000 Gold. This is considered the 'average' amount of gold in his game for a veteran player to have.
Jones just joined the game and he has 1,000 Gold.

Instead of adding a catchup mechanic for Jones to make the other 59,000 Gold we decide that 1,000 is the new standard and Xanathars gold is now only worth 5,000 gold while also adding a mechanic that will make Jones get 4,000 more gold as he levels to max cap but we didn't change any of the store prices. That's roughly what is happening here; the gold is XP and is being removed from the game because it's deemed problematic for players to catch up to. The CP points however still cost the same amount, 1 level, but now the guy who could have bought anything he wanted with 60k has to pick and choose while new players haven't actually gained or lost anything. Xanathar will still continue earning gold at his higher level at a faster rate due to more play options. Jones will still never catch up unless Xanathar stops playing for a long haitus.

By frontloading the earliest CP levels Xanathar doesn't lose anything, he doesn't care if Jones is given a new system that will give him 59,000 Gold as he levels up. By the time Jones gets to Xanathars level Xanathar will have made another 120,000. But that type of catch up system doesn't inconveniance or take away from anyone; it only helps the new player reach a baseline state that will allow him to join Xanathar as a fellow player.

There are two parts to this analogy
1) Using xp as a currency to obtain CP points
2) Using CP points to obtain an effect/star etc

In the first case, they have lowered the "store" price of the item Xanathar wants to buy. Sure he now only has 5000 gold, but he can obtain the same amount of CP points for that 5000 gold under the new system as he could with his 60000 gold under the old system.

The problem that makes it seem like Xanathar now has less choice comes from the second conversion of CP points into effects. He can no longer get as much "effect" for the same amount of CP points.
This is where ZOS have changed things as well. We get less effect for each CP point we earn, partially due to the vertical cap being higher, and partially due to some of our power being shifted to base stats. But this isn't a problem with the XP to CP curve, but rather this is due to the change in what value/effect/power we now get per CP point, and hence I don't think doing things like converting CP based on XP is the right place to be looking to address the issue. Rather, we need to be able to get to the same (or a similar) power level for the same amount of CP earned.

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

And, in terms of the context of the primary question of this thread - whether CP should be adjusted to fit the new xp curve – the exact same argument to adjust existing players CP could be made under your suggested enlightenment change.

Consider:
I am going to use a simplified version to make this a bit simpler for me to calculate, sp lets say players under CP1000 get an extra 4x XP boost at all times, as some form of extra enlightenment, but the xp curve remains unchanged.
So instead of requiring 336,628,454 XP to get to CP1000 (CP1.0 xp value), it would now effectively only take 336,628,454/4 = 84,157,113 XP of XP rewards, ie: the first 84,157,113 XP a player earns gets multiplied by 4.

But what if I was already CP1000. I could say:
I have already earned 336,628,454 XP.
But, if the new enlightenment change existed when I earned that, the first 84,157,113 XP of it would have been multiplied by 4.
So I should actually have and extra 3*84,157,113 = 252,471,339 XP
So I should actually have 336,628,454 + 252,471,339 = 589,099,793 XP which would mean I should actually be CP1273 under the old curve.
Does that sound right? Should I be “given” that extra 252 mil xp, because that’s what I would have if the new xp boon system existed when I earned my xp?
Considered like this, it doesn’t seem to me to make sense to be added. And yet, this is exactly the same thing that asking for a CP conversion to the new xp/cp curve is asking for.

I don't agree with calling the CP conversion the same thing as a catch up mechanic. Games introduce catch up mechanics to new players all the time but the older players never receive compensation; and that is exactly my issue here. If this was a catch up mechanic targeting new players I'd be perfectly fine. If they told me "Hey we are only shrinking the first 800 levels" I'd say "Well I already spent my 8 months at level 800 and I'm not losing any of my power."

In this scenario though I am losing power; as many parses have attested from PTS to live you do not acquire the same amount of power as currently exists at 810. This is why I view it as a 'punishment' to players who have already hit the original cap and their banked XP is essentially being wiped. Yes we can climb another 400-600 levels to get where we were but it doesn't change that we essentially were shirked time getting there without a good valid reason (and yes that is all I want; a good and valid reason for why it's necessary to not carry over XP values. And the 'catch-up' reason isn't a good or valid one.)

This is the same issue as above - CP points not providing the same power/effect as before.

I think at its most fundamental aspect we are looking at this is slightly different ways:

We both agree that we are losing power (the effect of CP) that we had gained by spending gameplay time/effort. The difference comes from having different perceived measures of gameplay time/effort.

You are measuring your gameplay time/effort in terms of total XP earned, and under the curve change, depending on how you look at it, it can be perceived that this "total xp" number is being reduced as you are being shifted down the curve to keep CP the same, so then you come to the conclusion:
My perceived indicator of gameplay time/effort (XP) is being reduced, and my power is as well. The two are related via the CP system, so if there was a conversion to keep my perceived indicator of gameplay time/effort the same, this would give me more CP, which would restore some of my lost power.

I am measuring my gameplay time/effort in terms of CP earned, and so don't perceive that I am "losing" anything in the XP/CP regard. So I come to the conclusion:
My perceived indicator of gameplay time/effort (CP), has stayed the same but I have lost power, so the solution is that my CP points need to provide more power/effect (like they used to) as this would restore some of my lost power.

Hence why I said I think the fundamental issue is what Joy identified.

Kittytravel wrote: »

I said yes; I'll outline some of the reasons below in the form of counter-points to a few arguments for the other side. I'll spoiler my answers because I'd rather it not look like a massive wall of text and be a little easier to read.


2. "No, because any other time they've raised the cap the curve wasn't adjusted."

This point doesn't stand because the increase before was 30, not 2790. It's pretty easy to grasp that the 'CP ups' that were received in the past were paltry compared to this. Months would go by before the cap was raised by 30 again and again, all the way from 570 to 810. You had months to catch up or exceed the cap and it was plenty of time to be ready for the next cap-raise.
In addition to this, it's actually just entirely wrong. When the CP 1.0 system was first introduced they actually did implement a carry-over method so that players time wasn't entirely wasted. It was also done with extreme forewarning and preparation for the player base to reach a point where they were comfortable. People of corresponding VR ranks were given an incremental boost in compensation for the systems transition. In addition CP itself was added in March 3 2015 and the full transition didn't occur until May 31 2016 giving players a full year to reach the appropriate CP cap.

Source: http://esoacademy.com/faq/veteran-rank-champion-rank-conversion/

Before that happened, when the game came out, the cap was V10. Some people rushed to that level.
Then they increased the cap to V12. Nobody that was at max got the extra XP they had already earned factored in.
Then they increased the cap to V14. Same thing happened to those who had rushed to the cap.
Then they increased the cap to V16 (when IC came out). At that point, we were considered at v14.99 if we had earned enough XP and got to v15 after killing one mudcrab.
Then they adjusted the XP needed for Vet ranks (from Vet XP to straight XP and a flat amount per level instead of a curve).
At this point, we *may* have received a level adjustment, but I don't remember. This was when they were already working on the CP system.
Then the CP system came out and each CP cost 400k XP. I believe people with V16s got a couple of CP to start out. Maybe like 60?
Then they converted us over and gave people some CP based on their highest VR character.
Then they decided they needed a catch-up mechanic because people grinding 24/7 were already getting to 1000 CP
The first cap was 510. Everyone with more CP than that (myself included), got hit with a 50% XP penalty per CP point.
Then the cap was adjusted to 540. Nobody above that got their CP adjusted OR compensated for the 50% penalty.
Rinse and repeat the above for all increases up to 810.

7. "No, because ZOS can't see the total EXP players have earned."

If that's the case, if they really do run a value that isn't just a numerical explanation of EXP = CP level+overflow amount of EXP then honestly they should just scrap the entire game. You are free to see a guesstimated value of your EXP here.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VPInJPxegaowYUym-vGQ6_so07gPFI1NnQ-v4O-f7mM/edit#gid=0
Credit for the doc is not mine and the name is in the doc.

.

As per my explanation above, there is no way the game can figure out how much XP I have earned over all the changes in the XP curve. There are millions of XP that are pretty much lost there. Just converting my current CP to whatever the equivalent CP value is with the two current curves doesn't go anywhere near the XP I have already earned in game.

So, no, it's not a "simple calculation" if you have played since before the cap was 810.

I'm fine with my CP staying where it's at (1420 right now). I look forward to earning CP at a faster speed again.

Another thing you need to consider is that the real cap was always 3600. That's always been the max, even if you couldn't allot all of them.

So er, the arguments are....my time is worth less than a new player, because they need to catch up?

I'm all for people catching up, in a way that makes sense. Not penalizing veteran players for having a play time of 3000 hours plus. Using myself as an example, I've done nearly every quest, and there is no way I can recoup the "lost" experience that I've already earned. And yes, it'll be lost, I've spent hours upon hours on the game, like many others have.

I'm not even asking for a freebie, I'm asking for what I am owed, just like my subscription demands I pay it each month or I'll lose the ESO bag. Earning all that experience and losing it, is like being told you've worked for 100 hours this month on some job and we're not getting paid.

In the end people will catch up as our progression will slow down.

I'm neutral, they must have a better idea than all of us what is better for the game and how it will all work. I'm trusting that whatever decision is made is the best one.

tmbrinks wrote: »

The time arguments are flawed as well.

If it took you 1000 hours to get to CP 1000 on the old system, but it takes a new player 500 hours to reach the same place due to a shift in XP curve/enlightenment/whatever. Have you still "lost" your 500 hours?

The quest argument is flawed as well.

If it took you 1000 quests to get to CP 1000 on the old system, but it takes a new player 500 quests to reach the same place due to a shift in the XP curve/enlightenment/whatever. Have you still "lost" those 500 quests you could do for bonus XP?

If your answers to the above match what you said before. Then you just need to admit that you want your XP added, so you're further ahead, and you want every new player to have to play as much as you did to get to that level.

I value my time that I've put into this game (something like 200 total days so far), and I'm well aware you've put far more into it than I have. What I'm not happy with is that I could essentially start playing the game as of when this patch goes live and have the same amount of champion points with about 50-60% of the game time (roughly compensating for the fact that it took me longer to level when I was an inexperienced player/raider and likely earning less experience per hour/day of playing).

I have not lost 80-100 days of game time, I agree with you on that, what I will lose however is what I gained during that time - experience points that have accumulated, continuing to build up champion points. I don't believe anyone here is asking for additional experience points, more simply asking for the cumulative amount of experience points that we have already earned to be retained (and therefore increasing the amount of champion points would have starting when the patch drops).

Do I want every new player to have to play as much as I did to get to this level? I thought about this for a while, thinking of both sides. I feel for a new player that has to come and play as much as I have to earn the same amount of experience points that I have accumulated. It took a long time, but that is the nature of an MMO game, the long game days, the grind for experience and gear, it's how they keep us playing the same content over and over, and so I don't believe new players should be able to do some percentage of the work I have done to accumulate the same amount of champion points, although given what I have said, I do not in any way object to increasing the rate at which they can level so that the time at which they reach an optimum amount of champion points to max their build is reduced. I agree adjusting the curve to something like you have seen in this post is a reasonable solution to this - keeps the grind going for more veteran players, but helps newer players get moving in the game faster, however if something like this was done, then I would definitely want to see cumulative experienced retained between CP 1.0 and CP 2.0, as the cap at 3600 would require the same amount of cumulative experience to reach it.

There's also been the arguments about the min/max and so forth. Personally I have enough CP that I can just get by based on the maths that others have done to show how much you'll need to max out a specific role, but I will of course have to respec should I switch between roles/activites such as tank/dps/pvp or refining/fishing etc. Does this concern me? No, I'm sure someone will make (or has already made) an addon that will allow us to easily switch between presets. I also have excessive funds that I have little idea what to do with, so the cost of doing this also doesn't concern me. But this isn't just about me, it's about others as well. One of my friends has roughly 900 CP. He is past the current CP cap, simply has presets as I do and goes about his game time. However with the next patch, he'll now be below the minimum CP required to max out his damage (which you have stated to be roughly about 1100). He's in the middle of a TTT prog right now, so when next patch drops, will he be allowed to stay in the group with damage/mitigation that isn't as optimised as it could be with more CP? I'm sure guilds/groups will have a period of leeway in order for some players to catch up, but they shouldn't have to. This is the area that I am most worried about, the players between 810 and the CP required to max out DPS in CP 2.0. They shouldn't have to grind to get back to where they were in terms of their ability to max out their build as much as possible.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

It's not even so amazing that people don't get it. It's not even that people are really concerned about the "time they lost" or lost power due to 'lost CP's."

If they had started us on the new system with 80% of the CP's, you'd have room to ***. They're not doing that.

You're not losting anything.

The complaint isn't that it took longer to get to X CP's, it's that it won't take someone else as long, which is childish and asinine. Them leveling faster won't somehow make you less strong.

It's not worth less in terms of placement value. It's worth the same.

Someone that made $100k in 1980 vs someone that made $100k in 2020 both have $100K. 1980 guy doesn't get to demand $300k more because it was harder to earn. Every dollar both make in 2020 from that point on is worth the same.

Here's another way to look at it, since people are so scared to death of someone else actually being allowed to have a capable character without putting 8000 hours into the game:

If you at your current CP's and Frickin' New Guy at 10 CP's play enough to earn the same number of XP's per day, FNG is always going to be behind you, right up until you're both finally at cap.

Be glad they reduced the curve at all, or worse, made it even harder to grind above XXX level.

You don't complain about "lost XP" during a 2X XP event if you don't get to play for one day, vs the people that do. This is NO different.

[snip]

Can I ask how many champion points you have?

To respond to your analogy: how would you feel if all of a sudden that the $400,000 you had in your bank account had its value slashed by 50%? Your analogy works over a long time scale caused by the gradual devaluation of a currency over time, but what is happening here is a sudden, much more noticeable change. Also, we are not asking for our cumulative experienced gained to be increased as your analogy suggests. We are asking for it to not be reduced, which is effectively is what is being done by keeping us with the same amount of champion points.

Lastly, telling us to 'quit [snip] is a very closed minded comment. To keep as many people as happy as possible there needs to be constructive discussion around the changes, not a single sided argument and that's the end of the story.

[Edited to remove Profanity]

camrenis wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The time arguments are flawed as well.

If it took you 1000 hours to get to CP 1000 on the old system, but it takes a new player 500 hours to reach the same place due to a shift in XP curve/enlightenment/whatever. Have you still "lost" your 500 hours?

The quest argument is flawed as well.

If it took you 1000 quests to get to CP 1000 on the old system, but it takes a new player 500 quests to reach the same place due to a shift in the XP curve/enlightenment/whatever. Have you still "lost" those 500 quests you could do for bonus XP?

If your answers to the above match what you said before. Then you just need to admit that you want your XP added, so you're further ahead, and you want every new player to have to play as much as you did to get to that level.

Do I want every new player to have to play as much as I did to get to this level? I thought about this for a while, thinking of both sides. I feel for a new player that has to come and play as much as I have to earn the same amount of experience points that I have accumulated. It took a long time, but that is the nature of an MMO game, the long game days, the grind for experience and gear, it's how they keep us playing the same content over and over, and so I don't believe new players should be able to do some percentage of the work I have done to accumulate the same amount of champion points, although given what I have said, I do not in any way object to increasing the rate at which they can level so that the time at which they reach an optimum amount of champion points to max their build is reduced. I agree adjusting the curve to something like you have seen in this post is a reasonable solution to this - keeps the grind going for more veteran players, but helps newer players get moving in the game faster, however if something like this was done, then I would definitely want to see cumulative experienced retained between CP 1.0 and CP 2.0, as the cap at 3600 would require the same amount of cumulative experience to reach it.

But either NOT giving "all the XP" (by adjusting based on the new curve) and lowering the curve - which is what ZoS is doing now.

and

"having an additional catch-up mechanic" whether it's increased enlightenment, etc, while adjusting the CP level for old players - which is what's proposed by many

are exactly the same thing mathematically. (You would just be doing a linear shift of the CPs/time. They're simply translations of the same function but behave identically to one another)

It's just a matter of your number of CPs being different. So I struggle how people can support one but not the other, because they literally accomplish the exact same thing.

So, it must come down to people being upset that those that previously COULD put in all that extra time are now actually going to be ahead of them, when previously with a 810 cap on the CP you could spend they were equal. Ironically, with this suggestion and the reduced curve they would be even further ahead!!! (in the difference in number of CP).

I don't think many of you at CP 810-CP 1000 realize how quickly you're going to earn new CP in the new system... it's going to feel like leveling did back when you were CP 300 in the old system... and you flew through those ranks in most cases. You will quite quickly get to the ~CP 1100 you need to be maximized for your role and then fairly rapidly get to CP 1400-1500 where you can get a lot of the mitigation passives to get that extra 2% efficiency to be mostly min/maxed.

EDIT: Those that want the CP adjusted for all the XP and there to be "no catch-up mechanic" changes are the one's I'd consider selfish/greedy (which I've said previously)

fierackas wrote: »

Interesting that 80% of voters want their accumulated XP to contribute to CP2 earnt and yet this thread seems to be dominated by posters arguing the opposite from the 20% group.

Indeed.

Another thing is the black and white. All or nothing.

Hardly anybody proposes, argues for or reacts to inbetween ideas.

Already proposed two:

- count 50% of exp difference and throw 50% of it out
- give exp difference as enlightenment


would smoothen the deal for vet players. make up for a lot of one time high exp stuff used up. while still allowing new players to get to same cp with less exp...

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

It's not even so amazing that people don't get it. It's not even that people are really concerned about the "time they lost" or lost power due to 'lost CP's."

If they had started us on the new system with 80% of the CP's, you'd have room to ***. They're not doing that.

You're not losting anything.

The complaint isn't that it took longer to get to X CP's, it's that it won't take someone else as long, which is childish and asinine. Them leveling faster won't somehow make you less strong.

It's not worth less in terms of placement value. It's worth the same.

Someone that made $100k in 1980 vs someone that made $100k in 2020 both have $100K. 1980 guy doesn't get to demand $300k more because it was harder to earn. Every dollar both make in 2020 from that point on is worth the same.

Here's another way to look at it, since people are so scared to death of someone else actually being allowed to have a capable character without putting 8000 hours into the game:

If you at your current CP's and Frickin' New Guy at 10 CP's play enough to earn the same number of XP's per day, FNG is always going to be behind you, right up until you're both finally at cap.

Be glad they reduced the curve at all, or worse, made it even harder to grind above XXX level.

You don't complain about "lost XP" during a 2X XP event if you don't get to play for one day, vs the people that do. This is NO different.

[snip]

1. If [snip] as you put it is what a conversation is then I'd wholly suggest you avoid forums for the rest of your life and probably other people as well.
2. Your example makes no sense at all as real world economies fluctuate the value of goods and services based on a variety of factors outside the heavily controlled world of a MMO game. Drawing real world conclusions from an environment with hundreds of outward factors isn't even close to equatable to a environment that is dependent on two. XP and CP. It's just plain disingenuous of you.
3. Yes, leveling them faster does make us less strong because the method being used front load EXP to earlier CP levels while removing XP from the original pool. If you are CP 870 you will still be CP 870 in the new system, losing about 1/3rd your total power currently. You will need to level back up to get to where you were, this isn't an opinion it is an absolute fact from all the test parses have done from PTS to Live. If CP 870 in the old system takes 500,000,000 EXP to get to in the new system it might only take 3,000,000. And then despite you reaching that 5 mil status you are just reverted to the 3 mil and the EXP you had is lost.
4. "Capable character without putting 8000 hours into the game". Last I checked it takes roughly double the amount of time (by XP point) to reach CP 1750 that it did to reach CP810. So... no time has actually been given.
5. And finally your 'lost XP' argument doesn't even stand. If that was the case I'd be here saying 'I didn't play for 3 months where is my free XP?" but I'm not. You literally have purposely misconstrued an entire valid line of logical thinking and twisted it into the facade of some screaming child. I'm not asking for any amount of XP I haven't earned. I'm asking for my pool of total XP to not be diluted over some false claim that it will allow lower CP players to catch up.


Yeah I can see that we are both essentially targeting the same fundamental from both sides just with a different method. On my side I think that the lost power can be supplemented by using XP to target CP level and allow players more leeway in the method that they earned whereas on your end fundamentally the system is punishing to a lower level player as there are too many essential combat passives that drive the players into a corner without them in most aspects of game play. Overall the system was designed without any actual forethought into the end product of what they wanted it to be it seems; did they want the endless grind of levels or was the crunch designed to catch players up faster? It seems both goals got horribly mixed and the end product is an overall loss of power without compensation to anyone and new players still have to climb over the horrendously large mountain that existed before.

I definitely would prefer on ZOS's end, more than anything if I can't have my XP converted to CP, a much more heavily loaded catch-up system for newer players. I'm capped on CP right now if only barely and it's taken me 4 years to do so. The issue with the new system is yes the curve is lowered but if the effective XP required to reach 810 is equivalent to reach 1750 then the system has literally done nothing to help newer players. (Which I believe it takes 324,000,000 EXP to reach 810 in the newer system down from 387,009,530 but then still requires a total of 700,000,000 to reach 1750 which is roughly the same power break point for current 810. Which means we haven't actually helped new players.)