Combat System Is Keeping Me From Coming Back.

darougaroux · September 2020

I played for quite a while, the PvE and Stories and Housing are unequivocal, however, I experience these things through my character. I love to RP when I play as well, but all of that fantastical veil is shattered anytime I enter into combat. It is clunky and unsatisfying. The fact that I have to cancel combat animations in order to be effective just kills my immersion an makes the game less interesting. GW2 and WoW have mush more fluid, smooth combat that is very responsive and doesnt require a "gimmick" to make it effective and top tier.

I am saying this not to trash ESO, in fact IM saying it to help ESO, especially now that it is owned by MS. I thin with the resources MS has, this game can be not good but entirely GREAT. But with the current combat system, no amount of money will make it good. As long as my character, the thing I experience the game through, feels clunky and awkward, I just dont see me returning, which is what I would like to do. I dont want to have to cancel animations, animations are part of the experience and the immersion of the game and I shouldnt have to learn to cancel them to be effective.

That's just my peace, I hope I didnt offend anyone. I just want this game to be great for EVERYONE.

MurderMostFoul · September 2020

Your dps will be fine as long as you light attack cancel. Done correctly, you never even see the light attack. So how does that break emersion or interfere with RPing?

Everest_Lionheart · September 2020

You don’t have to do those things in order to be successful in the game. Unless you are into endgame score pushing where all of that stuff matters than you are free to let the animations play out and keep your immersion.

Smitch_59 · September 2020

Animation cancelling is dumb. I'm with the OP.

Recapitated · September 2020

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Your dps will be fine as long as you light attack cancel. Done correctly, you never even see the light attack. So how does that break emersion or interfere with RPing?

Personally I don't care but think of bar swap cancelling wall of elements

Vevvev · September 2020

I tried getting into GW2 but I could never find out what in Oblivion was going on with all the special effects. Okay sure the combat is fluid but its lacking certain things like blocking, bash interrupting, and sprinting just to name a few. Having to cast speed buffs just to go faster or have teleport skills got annoying, fast. Loved the mount system though but the combat is lacking and I wouldn't say its exactly better.

Also as MurderMostFoul said you don't need to cancel every single thing like a skooma addicted Bosmer wearing the Ring of the Wild Hunt. As long as you light attack before every single ability that's all the weaving you need to do very decent DPS and get into a lot of content.

Rungar · September 2020

darougaroux wrote: »

I played for quite a while, the PvE and Stories and Housing are unequivocal, however, I experience these things through my character. I love to RP when I play as well, but all of that fantastical veil is shattered anytime I enter into combat. It is clunky and unsatisfying. The fact that I have to cancel combat animations in order to be effective just kills my immersion an makes the game less interesting. GW2 and WoW have mush more fluid, smooth combat that is very responsive and doesnt require a "gimmick" to make it effective and top tier.

I am saying this not to trash ESO, in fact IM saying it to help ESO, especially now that it is owned by MS. I thin with the resources MS has, this game can be not good but entirely GREAT. But with the current combat system, no amount of money will make it good. As long as my character, the thing I experience the game through, feels clunky and awkward, I just dont see me returning, which is what I would like to do. I dont want to have to cancel animations, animations are part of the experience and the immersion of the game and I shouldnt have to learn to cancel them to be effective.

That's just my peace, I hope I didnt offend anyone. I just want this game to be great for EVERYONE.

YOU HAVE OFFENDED THE TOWER OF CANCELATION AND THE WEAVING COMMISSION!!!!!

Just kiddin. Great game with crappy combat system. Right on the money.

Fischblut · September 2020

I just want this game to be great for EVERYONE.

If ESO would have same combat as GW2, I would stop playing it

GW2 combat feels so awful to me. Of course it all depends on person, and many people like combat in GW2... But I truly can't understand why other people enjoy it

If GW2 had no Griffon mounts, I would never even think about buying it.
In GW2, I endure awful combat just to have fun flying on my custom dyed mounts. In ESO, I enjoy both combat and mounts (but mounts can't be dyed, and there are no cool flying mounts so far). Even after constant nerfs, combat still feels good. I hope it will never go down the route of GW2 combat... Ability cooldowns would be the first step on that path.

AlnilamE · September 2020

Like, I play GW2, but I don't find the combat better. It's very confusing and trying to keep track of your cooldowns sucks.

Plus, it doesn't have Break Free, which is very annoying.

Sanguinor2 · September 2020

Well as you said that is your opinion. Many others, me included, disagree and would hate this games combat if it was like GW2 or WoW. You cant really make both sides happy I guess.
But you can do nearly every content without animation cancelling for the most part. You might have to block or dodge cancel to survive something but thats about it.

Dusk_Coven · September 2020

Fischblut wrote: »

I just want this game to be great for EVERYONE.

If ESO would have same combat as GW2, I would stop playing it
GW2 combat feels so awful to me. Of course it all depends on person, and many people like combat in GW2...

Combat mechanics aside, GW2 has awesome class identity while still preserving a broad range of choice for each class. Every weapon is used differently by every class.
But they did it by taking away choices between classes. You can't do what another class is doing.

People in ESO have a lot more freedom of choice which is part of the fun -- but what players do is throw all that away with meta builds and then complain about this that or the other thing being useless.

Rungar · September 2020

what makes the combat system crappy is free damage when the games philosophy was resources determine everything. You see it everywhere there is a problem with the game.

-skill ceiling vs floor ( free weaving and cancelling)
-proc metas ( no costs for procs)
-tank/gank metas ( utilize both of above with ultimates)
-performance ( everyones apm matters especially when some are 3-5x others).

failure to address free dmg doesnt make it go away, you end up with cooldowns like the ones being tested right now.

Dusk_Coven · September 2020

Rungar wrote: »

what makes the combat system crappy is free damage when the games philosophy was resources determine everything. You see it everywhere there is a problem with the game.

-skill ceiling vs floor ( free weaving and cancelling)
-proc metas ( no costs for procs)
-tank/gank metas ( utilize both of above with ultimates)
-performance ( everyones apm matters especially when some are 3-5x others).

failure to address free dmg doesnt make it go away, you end up with cooldowns like the ones being tested right now.

Failure to address it is the worst part and very telling of the philosophy in ZOS. Rich Lambert basically said it: They saw it happening, but didn't say or do anything. Instead, they simply allowed it.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. This is done through player knowledge, builds and group mechanics – resulting in a constant stream of AOEs with many players never using any other type of ability.

This is not what we intended, but part of the fun of Elder Scrolls games is designing a build that has unexpected and powerful results, and we allowed it. However, as this behavior grew more prevalent, we reached a point where casting so many continuous AOE abilities in such a small area started to overwhelm the server process for that area, leading to situations where the "lag meter" spikes and the server becomes unresponsive for a period of time.

Hoping a problem will go away -- when you know people will exploit it -- is just deluded.
So obviously the weakness in their system gets exploited. And exploits ultimately ruin a game for everyone.
http://gq-game-mods.blogspot.com/2020/07/what-everyone-already-knew-exploiting-destroys-the-game-for-everyone.html

Everest_Lionheart · September 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Fischblut wrote: »

I just want this game to be great for EVERYONE.

If ESO would have same combat as GW2, I would stop playing it
GW2 combat feels so awful to me. Of course it all depends on person, and many people like combat in GW2...

Combat mechanics aside, GW2 has awesome class identity while still preserving a broad range of choice for each class. Every weapon is used differently by every class.
But they did it by taking away choices between classes. You can't do what another class is doing.

People in ESO have a lot more freedom of choice which is part of the fun -- but what players do is throw all that away with meta builds and then complain about this that or the other thing being useless.

So many people go full meta without ever understanding why. There are other sets to use and skills available that will get you in the same ballpark. It still comes down to understanding how all of the pieces fit together to get the most out of your builds.

You even have builds out there using heavy attacks and weaving 2 skills between them. The heavy attacks still have to wind up, the skills are instant cast. No real real animation cancelling required.

There are those of us that take the frame work of a meta build and change things up to fit our own style as well. I mean I understand why they use certain skills to boost numbers, but when it comes down to using them in actual combat they don’t usually translate all that well.

Crash427 · September 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

what makes the combat system crappy is free damage when the games philosophy was resources determine everything. You see it everywhere there is a problem with the game.

-skill ceiling vs floor ( free weaving and cancelling)
-proc metas ( no costs for procs)
-tank/gank metas ( utilize both of above with ultimates)
-performance ( everyones apm matters especially when some are 3-5x others).

failure to address free dmg doesnt make it go away, you end up with cooldowns like the ones being tested right now.

Failure to address it is the worst part and very telling of the philosophy in ZOS. Rich Lambert basically said it: They saw it happening, but didn't say or do anything. Instead, they simply allowed it.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. This is done through player knowledge, builds and group mechanics – resulting in a constant stream of AOEs with many players never using any other type of ability.

This is not what we intended, but part of the fun of Elder Scrolls games is designing a build that has unexpected and powerful results, and we allowed it. However, as this behavior grew more prevalent, we reached a point where casting so many continuous AOE abilities in such a small area started to overwhelm the server process for that area, leading to situations where the "lag meter" spikes and the server becomes unresponsive for a period of time.

Hoping a problem will go away -- when you know people will exploit it -- is just deluded.
So obviously the weakness in their system gets exploited. And exploits ultimately ruin a game for everyone.
http://gq-game-mods.blogspot.com/2020/07/what-everyone-already-knew-exploiting-destroys-the-game-for-everyone.html

Seeing as how they basically admitted the players know the game better than they do, you'd think they'd listen to the PTS feedback a bit more. I guess that would make too much sense.

Gilvoth · September 2020

you are correct that the animation canceling in eso is horrible, infact to quote myself from another thread earlier the same applies in this thread and topic as well. this is a perfect example of why the combat system in eso is so bad.
the fact that we have to glitch the system \ create methods that are not intended in order to be competitive in combat is now and has been destroying eso now since beta 7 years ago and still going today.
i pray that microsoft fixes this type of thing for good so that every one has a chance to play the game as intended instead of playing a game that is glitch dependent.
there is no reason we need to keep this animation canceling any further since we now have access to microsofts team leaders and developers that perhaps could step in and fix the system to an acceptable combat
style that will help us all to have fair gameplay instead of being forced to cheat the system in methods that were never intended? i pray we will get the help we need on this subject.

Jeirno · September 2020

For me the biggest reason why I like ESO is because of the combat, its not some slow auto attack combat that puts me to sleep with global cooldowns(same as those cyro tests going now that I do not like at all). I like how the combat is very dynamic and requires the player to actually do something in order to do dmg and survive. Animation cancelling well umm i don't think i have ever played this game without doing it, when i started i didn't know about it, I just did it automatically because i wanted to do my skills and LAs as fast as possible so for me its a habit. Idk the idea of pressing a skill and waiting for the animation to finish doing a LA and waiting for the animation to finish before using the next skill is just dum and makes me not feel involved in the combat. Guess this concludes to the fact that I like spamming button.

Kosef · September 2020

OP, that is much of the same reason I left originally and went back to wow in 2016. The fluid movement definitely was a nice feeling, but I couldn't stomach the rinse and repeat development style that blizz was going with. ZoS has kind of the same, but I'm not quite irritated with it yet. All I can say is that, it took me a bit, but now I'm used to it to the point I don't even notice.

MurderMostFoul · September 2020

Gilvoth wrote: »

you are correct that the animation canceling in eso is horrible, infact to quote myself from another thread earlier the same applies in this thread and topic as well. this is a perfect example of why the combat system in eso is so bad.
the fact that we have to glitch the system \ create methods that are not intended in order to be competitive in combat is now and has been destroying eso now since beta 7 years ago and still going today.
i pray that microsoft fixes this type of thing for good so that every one has a chance to play the game as intended instead of playing a game that is glitch dependent.
there is no reason we need to keep this animation canceling any further since we now have access to microsofts team leaders and developers that perhaps could step in and fix the system to an acceptable combat
style that will help us all to have fair gameplay instead of being forced to cheat the system in methods that were never intended? i pray we will get the help we need on this subject.

For those who continue to rail against light attack canceling, you need to come to terms with the fact that, whether or not it was intended at the game's inception, it is now ingrained and accounted for in the ongoing development of ESO, and has been for years.

Taking an "originalist" stance in your expectations of how the game should operate now ingores the fact that a game like ESO will continue to grow and evolve over it's life. At this point, light attack canceling is an intended feature, not an exploit or glitch as many continue to claim.

Xargas13 · September 2020

This is truth. I really dislike those half cut animations, it looks buggy and unrealistic, sure its a fantasy game, but there are limits...

novemberhhh · September 2020

tldr: pushing 2 buttons per second is too hard im gonna stay in wow and let my macro play the game while i go afk

Dusk_Coven · September 2020

Crash427 wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

what makes the combat system crappy is free damage when the games philosophy was resources determine everything. You see it everywhere there is a problem with the game.

-skill ceiling vs floor ( free weaving and cancelling)
-proc metas ( no costs for procs)
-tank/gank metas ( utilize both of above with ultimates)
-performance ( everyones apm matters especially when some are 3-5x others).

failure to address free dmg doesnt make it go away, you end up with cooldowns like the ones being tested right now.

Failure to address it is the worst part and very telling of the philosophy in ZOS. Rich Lambert basically said it: They saw it happening, but didn't say or do anything. Instead, they simply allowed it.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. This is done through player knowledge, builds and group mechanics – resulting in a constant stream of AOEs with many players never using any other type of ability.

This is not what we intended, but part of the fun of Elder Scrolls games is designing a build that has unexpected and powerful results, and we allowed it. However, as this behavior grew more prevalent, we reached a point where casting so many continuous AOE abilities in such a small area started to overwhelm the server process for that area, leading to situations where the "lag meter" spikes and the server becomes unresponsive for a period of time.

Hoping a problem will go away -- when you know people will exploit it -- is just deluded.
So obviously the weakness in their system gets exploited. And exploits ultimately ruin a game for everyone.
http://gq-game-mods.blogspot.com/2020/07/what-everyone-already-knew-exploiting-destroys-the-game-for-everyone.html

Seeing as how they basically admitted the players know the game better than they do, you'd think they'd listen to the PTS feedback a bit more. I guess that would make too much sense.

The problem with general feedback on PTS or anywhere on the forums is that it's hard to separate genuinely good feedback from those with ulterior motives, those from exploiters wanting to keep exploits, and/or those who are just biased for or against something and are not concerned with fair and useful feedback -- i.e., people who are promoting their own agenda over what's good for the game.

Just look at the posts where people defend exploits and TOS violations.

Crash427 · September 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

what makes the combat system crappy is free damage when the games philosophy was resources determine everything. You see it everywhere there is a problem with the game.

-skill ceiling vs floor ( free weaving and cancelling)
-proc metas ( no costs for procs)
-tank/gank metas ( utilize both of above with ultimates)
-performance ( everyones apm matters especially when some are 3-5x others).

failure to address free dmg doesnt make it go away, you end up with cooldowns like the ones being tested right now.

Failure to address it is the worst part and very telling of the philosophy in ZOS. Rich Lambert basically said it: They saw it happening, but didn't say or do anything. Instead, they simply allowed it.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. This is done through player knowledge, builds and group mechanics – resulting in a constant stream of AOEs with many players never using any other type of ability.

This is not what we intended, but part of the fun of Elder Scrolls games is designing a build that has unexpected and powerful results, and we allowed it. However, as this behavior grew more prevalent, we reached a point where casting so many continuous AOE abilities in such a small area started to overwhelm the server process for that area, leading to situations where the "lag meter" spikes and the server becomes unresponsive for a period of time.

Hoping a problem will go away -- when you know people will exploit it -- is just deluded.
So obviously the weakness in their system gets exploited. And exploits ultimately ruin a game for everyone.
http://gq-game-mods.blogspot.com/2020/07/what-everyone-already-knew-exploiting-destroys-the-game-for-everyone.html

Seeing as how they basically admitted the players know the game better than they do, you'd think they'd listen to the PTS feedback a bit more. I guess that would make too much sense.

The problem with general feedback on PTS or anywhere on the forums is that it's hard to separate genuinely good feedback from those with ulterior motives, those from exploiters wanting to keep exploits, and/or those who are just biased for or against something and are not concerned with fair and useful feedback -- i.e., people who are promoting their own agenda over what's good for the game.

Fair point. The threads that claimed NB tanking wouldn't be possible with the loss of mitigation on grim focus gave me a good chuckle because I ran a NB tank long before grim focus ever gave that mitigation.

But there are some really broken or overpowered things that get pointed out on the PTS that are just flat out ignored until they go live, then get nerfed weeks or months later, that make me think the forum posts are mostly ignored.

pauld1_ESO · September 2020

Agreed, combat sucks.

Dusk_Coven · September 2020

Kosef wrote: »

OP, that is much of the same reason I left originally and went back to wow in 2016. The fluid movement definitely was a nice feeling, but I couldn't stomach the rinse and repeat development style that blizz was going with. ZoS has kind of the same, but I'm not quite irritated with it yet. All I can say is that, it took me a bit, but now I'm used to it to the point I don't even notice.

The trademark feature of ZOS certainly is an inability to fix exploits and a refusal to even acknowledge it. Don't think it's limited to ESO. Fallout76 actually has people openly teaching others how to use exploits on Twitter -- an exploit as far back as 2018 and I think they only just addressed it this month. There's no consequence to exploiting and it just makes the game a joke and the company an embarrassment.

volkeswagon · September 2020

I find combat too complex. How people get 80k dps is beyond me. I can't even get a quarter of that.

asuitandtyb14_ESO · September 2020

darougaroux wrote: »

I played for quite a while, the PvE and Stories and Housing are unequivocal, however, I experience these things through my character. I love to RP when I play as well, but all of that fantastical veil is shattered anytime I enter into combat. It is clunky and unsatisfying. The fact that I have to cancel combat animations in order to be effective just kills my immersion an makes the game less interesting. GW2 and WoW have mush more fluid, smooth combat that is very responsive and doesnt require a "gimmick" to make it effective and top tier.

I am saying this not to trash ESO, in fact IM saying it to help ESO, especially now that it is owned by MS. I thin with the resources MS has, this game can be not good but entirely GREAT. But with the current combat system, no amount of money will make it good. As long as my character, the thing I experience the game through, feels clunky and awkward, I just dont see me returning, which is what I would like to do. I dont want to have to cancel animations, animations are part of the experience and the immersion of the game and I shouldnt have to learn to cancel them to be effective.

That's just my peace, I hope I didnt offend anyone. I just want this game to be great for EVERYONE.

I'm in the same boat. I don't think there's much hope for people like us, and anytime it's brought up the white knights launcha new crusade.

hakan · September 2020

Crash427 wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

what makes the combat system crappy is free damage when the games philosophy was resources determine everything. You see it everywhere there is a problem with the game.

-skill ceiling vs floor ( free weaving and cancelling)
-proc metas ( no costs for procs)
-tank/gank metas ( utilize both of above with ultimates)
-performance ( everyones apm matters especially when some are 3-5x others).

failure to address free dmg doesnt make it go away, you end up with cooldowns like the ones being tested right now.

Failure to address it is the worst part and very telling of the philosophy in ZOS. Rich Lambert basically said it: They saw it happening, but didn't say or do anything. Instead, they simply allowed it.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. This is done through player knowledge, builds and group mechanics – resulting in a constant stream of AOEs with many players never using any other type of ability.

This is not what we intended, but part of the fun of Elder Scrolls games is designing a build that has unexpected and powerful results, and we allowed it. However, as this behavior grew more prevalent, we reached a point where casting so many continuous AOE abilities in such a small area started to overwhelm the server process for that area, leading to situations where the "lag meter" spikes and the server becomes unresponsive for a period of time.

Hoping a problem will go away -- when you know people will exploit it -- is just deluded.
So obviously the weakness in their system gets exploited. And exploits ultimately ruin a game for everyone.
http://gq-game-mods.blogspot.com/2020/07/what-everyone-already-knew-exploiting-destroys-the-game-for-everyone.html

Seeing as how they basically admitted the players know the game better than they do, you'd think they'd listen to the PTS feedback a bit more. I guess that would make too much sense.

The problem with general feedback on PTS or anywhere on the forums is that it's hard to separate genuinely good feedback from those with ulterior motives, those from exploiters wanting to keep exploits, and/or those who are just biased for or against something and are not concerned with fair and useful feedback -- i.e., people who are promoting their own agenda over what's good for the game.

Fair point. The threads that claimed NB tanking wouldn't be possible with the loss of mitigation on grim focus gave me a good chuckle because I ran a NB tank long before grim focus ever gave that mitigation.

But there are some really broken or overpowered things that get pointed out on the PTS that are just flat out ignored until they go live, then get nerfed weeks or months later, that make me think the forum posts are mostly ignored.

probably because that post had also included losing mitigation from shade and major protection nerf from darkness ultimate.

Artorias24 · September 2020

ESO Combat is the only thing that makes me stay

MentalxHammer · September 2020

The combat is what made me come back after quitting for a year, no mmo with action combat like this.

BleedMe_AnOcean · September 2020

I guess I don't understand. After spending years with WoW and then another year with FFXIV, ESO combat is definitely superior. Yes, WoW combat is smoother, but that tab target shite breaks immersion FAR more than weaving LAs that I can't even see. ESO combat requires that you pay attention. Dodge roll. Block. Bash. Interrupt. Change your rotation up based on the situation.

That's immersion. Being FORCED to analyze the situation and how it changes one second to the next, then take action to survive it.

Imho, if you're standing there watching every animation intently and waiting for it to complete before starting another, and if you're allowing yourself to get so irritated about those animations that you're about to quit the game.... I don't really know what to say. I guess to each their own. 🤷‍♀️