Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")




...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.

PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.

I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?

this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.

PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.

***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***

This is a nerf to PvP, though. Without rapids, you are going to have a much harder time getting to fights on time.

I don’t understand why a heal is a nerf to PvP? I have been here since BETA when you didn’t even have a horse at all cost there were 50k, I was here when you had a 60 speed horse that you could not ride cause you were locked in combat.

It’s PvP live goes on it never mattered PvP didn’t stop cause you didn’t have a 60 speed rapids buffed horse now having a heal for stamina players is a buff.

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")




...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.

PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.

I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?

this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.

PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.

***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***

your opinion on pve is just that - your opinion. that said, are you SURE this change is for pvp players? because it sure doesn't sound like it to me. it sounds like a change to "help" pve players more so then pvp ones.

and again. like I said. as long as rapids are accessible as they are now? we are fine. YOU are defending ZoS making it LESS accessible for newer players.

just because the skill is in a "pvp" line doesn't make it any less of a pve skill. this is not new. this is NOT in any way different. its been this way for YEARS. vigor is something that PVE players are strongly encouraged to aquire. vigor is something that PVE players have been complaining about. its NOT being moved for pvp player benefit. and just because YOU personaly do not care for pve, does NOT eliminate the fact that pve is a large focus of this game.

That logic makes no sense it’s not a PvE just cause you use it Undaunted is as PvE as it gets but Undaunted Mettle is a must for PvP does that make it a PvP skill?

If you ONLY level Fighters Guild half way and they reorder the skill line to better help the people it was actually made for would PvP players get to complain? No. I don’t not like PvE fine that’s an opinion but.
That all the PvE players are complaining that they will have to level a skill line more to get a skill in that line just cause it’s more convenient to them just so you can do the bare minimum in of starting PvP and get out is a fact and a sad one.

More opinions
I have I don’t want to zombie or spell scar grind for Dawn Breaker lets make that easy to get.

I don’t want to port all over the map to get books so I can pop off meteors from the Mage Guild.

I don’t want to do any dungeons to get Undaunted Mettle, cause they all feel the same and it’s the same thing over and over and over again nothing changes in City of Ash it’s not any better the 18th time around.

I want to fish so I can get a lead for a killer set.

But what I want doesn’t matter cause you HAVE to do the skill lines to get those skills and passives. PvE players are not special if you want a PvP skill then PvP for it. Just like you do everything else.

you know what I can say to this? apply your rant to vigor. there. and leave the current skills alone as they are. want pvp skill? (vigor) then go pvp.

DONE.

dude. you need to listen to your own words sometimes.

you are creating this bizzare slippery slope over a QUALITY OF LIFE skill, by comparing it to COMBAT skills (which vigor also is)

P.S. the only class that I have hard time with as far as personal heals go - is nighblade. and THAT is a nighblade issue, NOT lack of early vigor issue.

yodased wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

When they swapped snipe and poison injection it was the same exact way. If you had poison injection (first) and not snipe (last) they swapped.

You are also very self centered here. You don't want to pvp on characters you built to maximize gold in game so the game status quo should remain around that.

The individual player is irrelevant. What is best for the player base? Access to the only stamina heal over time or a faster 🐎

Access to a faster horse. 100% of characters can take advantage of it.

Less than 50% of characters can take advantage of vigor. (again, because some stamina classes have their own heals)

This is a false comparison. 100% of characters can use vigor same way 100% can use rapids.

The issue is the weight of consequence or opportunity cost for players.

Opportunity cost of fast horse for certain specs is death. Opportunity cost of vigor for all specs is slower horse.

You see the weight difference there? Inconvenience vs not having any reliable self heal

yodased wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

When they swapped snipe and poison injection it was the same exact way. If you had poison injection (first) and not snipe (last) they swapped.

You are also very self centered here. You don't want to pvp on characters you built to maximize gold in game so the game status quo should remain around that.

The individual player is irrelevant. What is best for the player base? Access to the only stamina heal over time or a faster 🐎

Access to a faster horse. 100% of characters can take advantage of it.

Less than 50% of characters can take advantage of vigor. (again, because some stamina classes have their own heals)

This is a false comparison. 100% of characters can use vigor same way 100% can use rapids.

The issue is the weight of consequence or opportunity cost for players.

Opportunity cost of fast horse for certain specs is death. Opportunity cost of vigor for all specs is slower horse.

You see the weight difference there? Inconvenience vs not having any reliable self heal

slow horse = not making ticks in cyrodiil = more time having to be in cyrodiil = death.
slow horse = lagging behind group, getting picked off by gankers = death.

They both lead to more death!

As others have said... Rapids should be ASSAULT 1... Vigor should be SUPPORT 1

Both unlock upon the tutorial. Everybody is happy.

There are unlimited ways they could have chosen to fix the stamina heal issue for sure, but again this is a false comparison because riding to keeps is not the only way to make alliance points.

Sure having a fast horse is more convenient for everything this is a given and rapids is basically required once you obtain it.

The fact remains though that you can get all pvp skills unlocked without ever fighting a player or riding to a keep.

Just buy repair kits with gold and travel to every keep you can by transit and repair every wall and door to 100%. Make sure you get the alliance buff from the closest delve to a portable keep.

More than likely you will also encounter resources at recently flipped keeps where you can get free AP by just being there.

The point is you dont need a horse to get AP.

Im not arguing against the concept of separating out a critical heal and a quality of life spell that would be silly

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")




...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.

PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.

I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?

this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.

PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.

***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***

This is a nerf to PvP, though. Without rapids, you are going to have a much harder time getting to fights on time.

I don’t understand why a heal is a nerf to PvP? I have been here since BETA when you didn’t even have a horse at all cost there were 50k, I was here when you had a 60 speed horse that you could not ride cause you were locked in combat.

It’s PvP live goes on it never mattered PvP didn’t stop cause you didn’t have a 60 speed rapids buffed horse now having a heal for stamina players is a buff.

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")




...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.

PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.

I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?

this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.

PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.

***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***

your opinion on pve is just that - your opinion. that said, are you SURE this change is for pvp players? because it sure doesn't sound like it to me. it sounds like a change to "help" pve players more so then pvp ones.

and again. like I said. as long as rapids are accessible as they are now? we are fine. YOU are defending ZoS making it LESS accessible for newer players.

just because the skill is in a "pvp" line doesn't make it any less of a pve skill. this is not new. this is NOT in any way different. its been this way for YEARS. vigor is something that PVE players are strongly encouraged to aquire. vigor is something that PVE players have been complaining about. its NOT being moved for pvp player benefit. and just because YOU personaly do not care for pve, does NOT eliminate the fact that pve is a large focus of this game.

That logic makes no sense it’s not a PvE just cause you use it Undaunted is as PvE as it gets but Undaunted Mettle is a must for PvP does that make it a PvP skill?

If you ONLY level Fighters Guild half way and they reorder the skill line to better help the people it was actually made for would PvP players get to complain? No. I don’t not like PvE fine that’s an opinion but.
That all the PvE players are complaining that they will have to level a skill line more to get a skill in that line just cause it’s more convenient to them just so you can do the bare minimum in of starting PvP and get out is a fact and a sad one.

More opinions
I have I don’t want to zombie or spell scar grind for Dawn Breaker lets make that easy to get.

I don’t want to port all over the map to get books so I can pop off meteors from the Mage Guild.

I don’t want to do any dungeons to get Undaunted Mettle, cause they all feel the same and it’s the same thing over and over and over again nothing changes in City of Ash it’s not any better the 18th time around.

I want to fish so I can get a lead for a killer set.

But what I want doesn’t matter cause you HAVE to do the skill lines to get those skills and passives. PvE players are not special if you want a PvP skill then PvP for it. Just like you do everything else.

you know what I can say to this? apply your rant to vigor. there. and leave the current skills alone as they are. want pvp skill? (vigor) then go pvp.

DONE.

dude. you need to listen to your own words sometimes.

you are creating this bizzare slippery slope over a QUALITY OF LIFE skill, by comparing it to COMBAT skills (which vigor also is)

P.S. the only class that I have hard time with as far as personal heals go - is nighblade. and THAT is a nighblade issue, NOT lack of early vigor issue.

Bizarre slippery slope literally everyone in this thread is making comparison so why point me out, cause I disagree with you?
The idea that in a skill line for a WAR ZONE that a healing power is unlocked before a Speed buff is not a hard thing to understand.

the idea that most classes have built in CLASS self heal on the other hand is apparently a rough one for you? I point YOU out because you are replying to me with arguments that are not thought through. but I can point out others as well.

the bizzare thing here is that you are arguing for a quality of life skill being pushed farther away. like you cannot see a world where they could fix self heal situation WITHOUT taking away quality of life ability 100% of the players can enjoy without having to grind for it.

let me try to put it in simplest terms I can

IT. is NOT. a ZERO. SUM. SITUATION. it shouldn't be anyway. GIVING PLAYERS STAMINA HEAL DOES NOT HAVE TO COME AT A COST OF QUALITY OF LIFE FEATURE. proper solution would be to leave rapids as they are and fix the heal situation in some other way. whether its by adjusting class abilities or moving vigor to support skill line instead of currently available shield LIKE ITS BEEN SUGGESTED MULTIPLE TIMES.

Beastygrowls wrote: »

ZoooooooooooooooooS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! WTH! I know we're a sideshow Bob, but FARMING?!?!?! Surveys and maps?? I don't want to fight 50 jillion things farming, I want to GET THERE, and get it done, and GET AWAY to the next spot! Just... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")




...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.

PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.

I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?

this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.

PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.

***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***

This is a nerf to PvP, though. Without rapids, you are going to have a much harder time getting to fights on time.

I don’t understand why a heal is a nerf to PvP? I have been here since BETA when you didn’t even have a horse at all cost there were 50k, I was here when you had a 60 speed horse that you could not ride cause you were locked in combat.

It’s PvP live goes on it never mattered PvP didn’t stop cause you didn’t have a 60 speed rapids buffed horse now having a heal for stamina players is a buff.

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")




...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.

PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.

I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?

this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.

PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.

***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***

your opinion on pve is just that - your opinion. that said, are you SURE this change is for pvp players? because it sure doesn't sound like it to me. it sounds like a change to "help" pve players more so then pvp ones.

and again. like I said. as long as rapids are accessible as they are now? we are fine. YOU are defending ZoS making it LESS accessible for newer players.

just because the skill is in a "pvp" line doesn't make it any less of a pve skill. this is not new. this is NOT in any way different. its been this way for YEARS. vigor is something that PVE players are strongly encouraged to aquire. vigor is something that PVE players have been complaining about. its NOT being moved for pvp player benefit. and just because YOU personaly do not care for pve, does NOT eliminate the fact that pve is a large focus of this game.

That logic makes no sense it’s not a PvE just cause you use it Undaunted is as PvE as it gets but Undaunted Mettle is a must for PvP does that make it a PvP skill?

If you ONLY level Fighters Guild half way and they reorder the skill line to better help the people it was actually made for would PvP players get to complain? No. I don’t not like PvE fine that’s an opinion but.
That all the PvE players are complaining that they will have to level a skill line more to get a skill in that line just cause it’s more convenient to them just so you can do the bare minimum in of starting PvP and get out is a fact and a sad one.

More opinions
I have I don’t want to zombie or spell scar grind for Dawn Breaker lets make that easy to get.

I don’t want to port all over the map to get books so I can pop off meteors from the Mage Guild.

I don’t want to do any dungeons to get Undaunted Mettle, cause they all feel the same and it’s the same thing over and over and over again nothing changes in City of Ash it’s not any better the 18th time around.

I want to fish so I can get a lead for a killer set.

But what I want doesn’t matter cause you HAVE to do the skill lines to get those skills and passives. PvE players are not special if you want a PvP skill then PvP for it. Just like you do everything else.

you know what I can say to this? apply your rant to vigor. there. and leave the current skills alone as they are. want pvp skill? (vigor) then go pvp.

DONE.

dude. you need to listen to your own words sometimes.

you are creating this bizzare slippery slope over a QUALITY OF LIFE skill, by comparing it to COMBAT skills (which vigor also is)

P.S. the only class that I have hard time with as far as personal heals go - is nighblade. and THAT is a nighblade issue, NOT lack of early vigor issue.

Bizarre slippery slope literally everyone in this thread is making comparison so why point me out, cause I disagree with you?
The idea that in a skill line for a WAR ZONE that a healing power is unlocked before a Speed buff is not a hard thing to understand.

the idea that most classes have built in CLASS self heal on the other hand is apparently a rough one for you? I point YOU out because you are replying to me with arguments that are not thought through. but I can point out others as well.

the bizzare thing here is that you are arguing for a quality of life skill being pushed farther away. like you cannot see a world where they could fix self heal situation WITHOUT taking away quality of life ability 100% of the players can enjoy without having to grind for it.

let me try to put it in simplest terms I can

IT. is NOT. a ZERO. SUM. SITUATION. it shouldn't be anyway. GIVING PLAYERS STAMINA HEAL DOES NOT HAVE TO COME AT A COST OF QUALITY OF LIFE FEATURE. proper solution would be to leave rapids as they are and fix the heal situation in some other way. whether its by adjusting class abilities or moving vigor to support skill line instead of currently available shield LIKE ITS BEEN SUGGESTED MULTIPLE TIMES.

Every class doesn’t have build in self heal every MAGIC class does. If you can’t heal yourself out of combat without needing to deal damage it’s not a self heal.

No you can’t “fix” the problem by adding stamina class heals and you know it. To do that would be seen as taking a morph from magic to give to stamina players. Okay so let’s be both honest and realistic, hell let’s just look at what they are doing right now.
When addressing the lack of stamina on demand self heals what did they come up with? Changing unpopular morph of heals to stamina (we all know the skills that are just never picked) did they choose to do that? Did they come up with leaving Vigor where it is and make it possible for stamina builds of all classes to self heal like mages can, no they chose to move vigor cause they know the lack of stamina self heals is a problem and moving one skill that would *** all of PvE off was easier then fixing broken classes.

PvE and magic build in general would be pissed if they fixed classes by making more skill stamina. You know this everyone knows. When sorcs want Crystal Blast to be made a stamina morph Sorcs came out the woodworks saying they used it this happens time and time again well you can’t have it both ways. They can fix the healing imbalance or move vigor and well they chose to move Vigor.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")




...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.

PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.

I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?

this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.

PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.

***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***

This is a nerf to PvP, though. Without rapids, you are going to have a much harder time getting to fights on time.

I don’t understand why a heal is a nerf to PvP? I have been here since BETA when you didn’t even have a horse at all cost there were 50k, I was here when you had a 60 speed horse that you could not ride cause you were locked in combat.

It’s PvP live goes on it never mattered PvP didn’t stop cause you didn’t have a 60 speed rapids buffed horse now having a heal for stamina players is a buff.

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")




...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.

PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.

I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?

this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.

PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.

***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***

your opinion on pve is just that - your opinion. that said, are you SURE this change is for pvp players? because it sure doesn't sound like it to me. it sounds like a change to "help" pve players more so then pvp ones.

and again. like I said. as long as rapids are accessible as they are now? we are fine. YOU are defending ZoS making it LESS accessible for newer players.

just because the skill is in a "pvp" line doesn't make it any less of a pve skill. this is not new. this is NOT in any way different. its been this way for YEARS. vigor is something that PVE players are strongly encouraged to aquire. vigor is something that PVE players have been complaining about. its NOT being moved for pvp player benefit. and just because YOU personaly do not care for pve, does NOT eliminate the fact that pve is a large focus of this game.

That logic makes no sense it’s not a PvE just cause you use it Undaunted is as PvE as it gets but Undaunted Mettle is a must for PvP does that make it a PvP skill?

If you ONLY level Fighters Guild half way and they reorder the skill line to better help the people it was actually made for would PvP players get to complain? No. I don’t not like PvE fine that’s an opinion but.
That all the PvE players are complaining that they will have to level a skill line more to get a skill in that line just cause it’s more convenient to them just so you can do the bare minimum in of starting PvP and get out is a fact and a sad one.

More opinions
I have I don’t want to zombie or spell scar grind for Dawn Breaker lets make that easy to get.

I don’t want to port all over the map to get books so I can pop off meteors from the Mage Guild.

I don’t want to do any dungeons to get Undaunted Mettle, cause they all feel the same and it’s the same thing over and over and over again nothing changes in City of Ash it’s not any better the 18th time around.

I want to fish so I can get a lead for a killer set.

But what I want doesn’t matter cause you HAVE to do the skill lines to get those skills and passives. PvE players are not special if you want a PvP skill then PvP for it. Just like you do everything else.

you know what I can say to this? apply your rant to vigor. there. and leave the current skills alone as they are. want pvp skill? (vigor) then go pvp.

DONE.

dude. you need to listen to your own words sometimes.

you are creating this bizzare slippery slope over a QUALITY OF LIFE skill, by comparing it to COMBAT skills (which vigor also is)

P.S. the only class that I have hard time with as far as personal heals go - is nighblade. and THAT is a nighblade issue, NOT lack of early vigor issue.

Bizarre slippery slope literally everyone in this thread is making comparison so why point me out, cause I disagree with you?
The idea that in a skill line for a WAR ZONE that a healing power is unlocked before a Speed buff is not a hard thing to understand.

the idea that most classes have built in CLASS self heal on the other hand is apparently a rough one for you? I point YOU out because you are replying to me with arguments that are not thought through. but I can point out others as well.

the bizzare thing here is that you are arguing for a quality of life skill being pushed farther away. like you cannot see a world where they could fix self heal situation WITHOUT taking away quality of life ability 100% of the players can enjoy without having to grind for it.

let me try to put it in simplest terms I can

IT. is NOT. a ZERO. SUM. SITUATION. it shouldn't be anyway. GIVING PLAYERS STAMINA HEAL DOES NOT HAVE TO COME AT A COST OF QUALITY OF LIFE FEATURE. proper solution would be to leave rapids as they are and fix the heal situation in some other way. whether its by adjusting class abilities or moving vigor to support skill line instead of currently available shield LIKE ITS BEEN SUGGESTED MULTIPLE TIMES.

Every class doesn’t have build in self heal every MAGIC class does. If you can’t heal yourself out of combat without needing to deal damage it’s not a self heal.

No you can’t “fix” the problem by adding stamina class heals and you know it. To do that would be seen as taking a morph from magic to give to stamina players. Okay so let’s be both honest and realistic, hell let’s just look at what they are doing right now.
When addressing the lack of stamina on demand self heals what did they come up with? Changing unpopular morph of heals to stamina (we all know the skills that are just never picked) did they choose to do that? Did they come up with leaving Vigor where it is and make it possible for stamina builds of all classes to self heal like mages can, no they chose to move vigor cause they know the lack of stamina self heals is a problem and moving one skill that would *** all of PvE off was easier then fixing broken classes.

PvE and magic build in general would be pissed if they fixed classes by making more skill stamina. You know this everyone knows. When sorcs want Crystal Blast to be made a stamina morph Sorcs came out the woodworks saying they used it this happens time and time again well you can’t have it both ways. They can fix the healing imbalance or move vigor and well they chose to move Vigor.

you can still use magika heals as a stamina character. in fact - i prefer it cause it leaves me extra stamina for other combat skills/dodging/etc. I don't remember/haven't personaly seen any conversations as far as crystal blast, but i DO remember when they first messed with crit surge/power surge and THAT one was because originally it was morph for stam and morph for magika, and they decided to basically take away magika morph capabilities and making into a healing ability for HEALING sorcs, while leaving dps sorcs without a viable class ability more or less. as far as i can see, in general people are just fine with having stam and magika morphs per ability. as long as they provide roughly equal benefits/functionality. and more importantly. when something you used to have acess to is NOT arbitrarily taken away.

and yes. you can have it both ways. as people keep suggesting. MOVE. VIGOR. TO. SUPPORT. tada.

and i'm still not understanding WHY are you defending losing rapids.

You can't use magic heals as stamina and be okay you would need to invest in max magic and regen otherwise you will not be able to heal when you need to.

Moving Siege Shield is bad people use it on flags, wall breaches and not die while besieging down a wall or door it's used in PvP, a self heal usable sooner is needed in PvP they are PvP lines what's best for PvP is what needs to be done.

No one is losing Rapids you will just have to get more AP. This tread is just people not wanting to PvP.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

I use Rapids ALL the time. It's become quite automatic for me to press the skill button for it whenever I get on my mount for every character.

And I have a lot of alts that need skyshards for the purposes of doing daily crafting writs. I am not going to do 15 BGs on EACH and every one of my alts for a skill that, by all rights, I have already earned.

I do not understand why Vigor is an assault skill and why they can't just switch it with Siege Shield. I don't see anybody arguing for Siege Shield to stay where it is, and I don't understand why people want to make it harder to get Rapids just for the sake of making it harder to get Rapids instead of simply moving Vigor to Siege Shield's spot. There's a potential for everybody to be happy here; why should we not seize this potential?

Cause people use Siege Shield to not get showered in oils and PvP not only has skyshards you get skill points as you rank up so why not do a few BG or PvP you still get you're skill points

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

I use Rapids ALL the time. It's become quite automatic for me to press the skill button for it whenever I get on my mount for every character.

And I have a lot of alts that need skyshards for the purposes of doing daily crafting writs. I am not going to do 15 BGs on EACH and every one of my alts for a skill that, by all rights, I have already earned.

I do not understand why Vigor is an assault skill and why they can't just switch it with Siege Shield. I don't see anybody arguing for Siege Shield to stay where it is, and I don't understand why people want to make it harder to get Rapids just for the sake of making it harder to get Rapids instead of simply moving Vigor to Siege Shield's spot. There's a potential for everybody to be happy here; why should we not seize this potential?

Cause people use Siege Shield to not get showered in oils and PvP not only has skyshards you get skill points as you rank up so why not do a few BG or PvP you still get you're skill points

EXACTLY. Why can't people just do a few BG to get their Siege Shield back, they'll still get their skill points And it will be mostly PVPers who DO love PVP who would want Siege Shield , so they probably wouldn't mind ranking their PVP skill to level 5.

Meanwhile lots of people who PVE use Rapids all the time, so it only makes sense to have it unlock first.

BigBragg wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

I use Rapids ALL the time. It's become quite automatic for me to press the skill button for it whenever I get on my mount for every character.

And I have a lot of alts that need skyshards for the purposes of doing daily crafting writs. I am not going to do 15 BGs on EACH and every one of my alts for a skill that, by all rights, I have already earned.

I do not understand why Vigor is an assault skill and why they can't just switch it with Siege Shield. I don't see anybody arguing for Siege Shield to stay where it is, and I don't understand why people want to make it harder to get Rapids just for the sake of making it harder to get Rapids instead of simply moving Vigor to Siege Shield's spot. There's a potential for everybody to be happy here; why should we not seize this potential?

Cause people use Siege Shield to not get showered in oils and PvP not only has skyshards you get skill points as you rank up so why not do a few BG or PvP you still get you're skill points

EXACTLY. Why can't people just do a few BG to get their Siege Shield back, they'll still get their skill points And it will be mostly PVPers who DO love PVP who would want Siege Shield , so they probably wouldn't mind ranking their PVP skill to level 5.

Meanwhile lots of people who PVE use Rapids all the time, so it only makes sense to have it unlock first.

PvP should move a shield that cuts Flaming Oils in PvP just so PvE players can save a few hours. Siege Shield helps you take a keep Vigor helps you live in a fight but all of that can wait cause a PvE not be bothered to do the content. PvE players are so selfish and toxic HOW DARE THE PVP LINE BE MADE MORE CONVENIENT TO THE PEOPLE THAT USE.

PvP player here, and I still stand by the notion that moving Rapids is a bad idea for all the reasons discussed. I do like the idea of moving Vigor to an easier place, but I don't see it being a better first slot in Assault.

BigBragg wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

I use Rapids ALL the time. It's become quite automatic for me to press the skill button for it whenever I get on my mount for every character.

And I have a lot of alts that need skyshards for the purposes of doing daily crafting writs. I am not going to do 15 BGs on EACH and every one of my alts for a skill that, by all rights, I have already earned.

I do not understand why Vigor is an assault skill and why they can't just switch it with Siege Shield. I don't see anybody arguing for Siege Shield to stay where it is, and I don't understand why people want to make it harder to get Rapids just for the sake of making it harder to get Rapids instead of simply moving Vigor to Siege Shield's spot. There's a potential for everybody to be happy here; why should we not seize this potential?

Cause people use Siege Shield to not get showered in oils and PvP not only has skyshards you get skill points as you rank up so why not do a few BG or PvP you still get you're skill points

EXACTLY. Why can't people just do a few BG to get their Siege Shield back, they'll still get their skill points And it will be mostly PVPers who DO love PVP who would want Siege Shield , so they probably wouldn't mind ranking their PVP skill to level 5.

Meanwhile lots of people who PVE use Rapids all the time, so it only makes sense to have it unlock first.

PvP should move a shield that cuts Flaming Oils in PvP just so PvE players can save a few hours. Siege Shield helps you take a keep Vigor helps you live in a fight but all of that can wait cause a PvE not be bothered to do the content. PvE players are so selfish and toxic HOW DARE THE PVP LINE BE MADE MORE CONVENIENT TO THE PEOPLE THAT USE.

PvP player here, and I still stand by the notion that moving Rapids is a bad idea for all the reasons discussed. I do like the idea of moving Vigor to an easier place, but I don't see it being a better first slot in Assault.

It is for stamina that needs a heal. The level of selfishness is unholy "Well I don't need it so who cares"

I PvP with stamina and magicka. [snip]

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

I use Rapids ALL the time. It's become quite automatic for me to press the skill button for it whenever I get on my mount for every character.

And I have a lot of alts that need skyshards for the purposes of doing daily crafting writs. I am not going to do 15 BGs on EACH and every one of my alts for a skill that, by all rights, I have already earned.

I do not understand why Vigor is an assault skill and why they can't just switch it with Siege Shield. I don't see anybody arguing for Siege Shield to stay where it is, and I don't understand why people want to make it harder to get Rapids just for the sake of making it harder to get Rapids instead of simply moving Vigor to Siege Shield's spot. There's a potential for everybody to be happy here; why should we not seize this potential?

Cause people use Siege Shield to not get showered in oils and PvP not only has skyshards you get skill points as you rank up so why not do a few BG or PvP you still get you're skill points

EXACTLY. Why can't people just do a few BG to get their Siege Shield back, they'll still get their skill points And it will be mostly PVPers who DO love PVP who would want Siege Shield , so they probably wouldn't mind ranking their PVP skill to level 5.

Meanwhile lots of people who PVE use Rapids all the time, so it only makes sense to have it unlock first.

PvP should move a shield that cuts Flaming Oils in PvP just so PvE players can save a few hours. Siege Shield helps you take a keep Vigor helps you live in a fight but all of that can wait cause a PvE not be bothered to do the content. PvE players are so selfish and toxic HOW DARE THE PVP LINE BE MADE MORE CONVENIENT TO THE PEOPLE THAT USE.

PvP player here, and I still stand by the notion that moving Rapids is a bad idea for all the reasons discussed. I do like the idea of moving Vigor to an easier place, but I don't see it being a better first slot in Assault.

It is for stamina that needs a heal. The level of selfishness is unholy "Well I don't need it so who cares"

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

All right then just unlock BOTH Vigor AND Rapids in Assault after the intro questline. Move Vigor to the second skill space and have that skill unlock simultaneously with Rapids.

Surely no one would have objections to this.