Please do not swap rapids with vigor – QOL deterioration

FierceSam

Keep it as it is now

VoxAdActa wrote: »

How are people not getting this?

Vigor is the only heal available for non-warden Stam characters.

Rapids is purely cosmetic.

"Oh, I'm not getting to my compass point fast enough! Literally unplayable!" Really?

Exactly.

Try doing any of the latest ‘go all over Tamriel ‘ questlines and see how much fun it is with Vigor and no Rapids.

But grats, you’re playing ZOS’s game and have accepted that making Vigor slightly more attainable should mean massively inconveniencing every new player who needs to actually get around.

If having a decent stam heal was so vital, ZOS should figure out a way of providing it that didn’t f*** the majority of their players. Maybe if they sold Vigor in the Crown Store that would work....

Recremen

Other:

I greatly prefer rapids in the 1 slot because it's immediately usable on all alts and has universal utility. A stam HoT is much more niche, and as someone who has powerleveled many stam characters, it's frankly not necessary for an average stam player until you start trying advanced play. I say that if they want a universaslly-accessible easy-to-get stam heal, they should just add a new skill line or a new skill to an existing skill line. Soul Magic could always use some love.

LuxLunae

Switch rapids with vigor

Last time I checked, rapids put it on the whole team.. tell someone to add you and have them put it on you...

TBH, I stopped lvling my mounts... I just predict where the battles go and run there as an orc by foot...

I was sitting there seeing this newer player always near death needing to run away ...all they needed was a little vigor...

This was PVE, they not a clue that vigor is even in pvp.

Linaleah

Keep it as it is now

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")




...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Switch rapids with vigor

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")




...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.

PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.

Linaleah

Keep it as it is now

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")




...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.

PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.

I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?

this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.

EvilAutoTech

Keep it as it is now

There is already a Stam heal that you can get even sooner than rapids, and it does damage. I have had bloodthirst well before level 10, and then when I got to Cyrodiil, I had rapids too. Fast and able to heal myself in combat. Vigor is nice but not "necessary" at low levels.

Also taking away skills that were already unlocked just stinks to high heaven.

Jaimeh

Czeri wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

I have a lot of stam characters, and when I'm levelling them, having a slow horse is worse than not having vigour. Besides on a lowbie I put attributes on both stam and mag, since most skills start as mag, and there's always a mag self heal available. I still grind vigour/caltrops as soon as I can enter Cyro, it's not a lot of AP, but I think rapids are more useful to my lowbies.

That's not true. Nightblades don't have a self-heal. Trying to play a stamblade with a resto staff doesn't work.

Did you miss the part where I said 'Besides on a lowbie I put attributes on both stam and mag'? I just finished levelling a khajiit stamNB the other day, used funnel till I had vigor and it worked a charm. Like how many hours do you think levelling to vigor/caltrops takes

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Keep it as it is now

Guessing mount Speed sales have slowed. This is a bad change. Every character needs rapids, less than half need vigor.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

Switch rapids with vigor

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

There is already a Stam heal that you can get even sooner than rapids, and it does damage. I have had bloodthirst well before level 10, and then when I got to Cyrodiil, I had rapids too. Fast and able to heal myself in combat. Vigor is nice but not "necessary" at low levels.

Also taking away skills that were already unlocked just stinks to high heaven.

Which is useless if you run a build that does not have DW.

In PvP that really is quite common, to not have DW.

CombatPrayer

Keep it as it is now

I just grinded out level five on most of my characters in random BGs. Tedious, but doable. Of course, not being a PVP player, I'm sure it made for a not great experience for my groups, but that's no my problem. That is on ESO for the upcoming change. BGs will now probably be a lot different with players looking for the rapids.

Still, if the issue is that Vigor is needed as a heal for stam characters, then that's a serious issue that has to do with class designs and should be addressed in the classes. Placing a stam character heal in the Alliance skill line is about as idiotic as it gets. Sorry, but it really is a stupid solution to a core issue within each class. Every class SHOULD have one solid heal that can be morphed to stam or magicka. How hard is it to do that? Not rocket science.

Sargesgaming

Other:

caperb wrote: »

In the PTS Patch Notes v6.1.0 we see a very unwelcoming change:

Alliance War
• Assault
o Vigor: This ability is now first in the skill line to unlock, and has swapped places with Rapid Maneuvers in efforts to help builds focused on Stamina to have a healthier leveling experience. Previous XP gained in both of these skills will be retained, but if your Assault skill line is too low to obtain the 3rd skill, you will have to level it in order to gain access to Rapid Maneuvers again.

I do not understand why this change is coming. Rapid Maneuver is one of the most important skills in the game on EVERY character, especially at low levels. Actually almost everyone I talked with about this change didn’t like it, so I’m curious what you guys on the forums think about it. For myself, everytime I make a new character the first thing I do is level it to 10 and enter Cyrodiil to do the starter quest and unlock rapids. The single reason for this is to make the character playable. The mount speed at early levels is so low that without rapids, everything you do takes almost double the time or even worse.

At this moment you need almost zero AP to unlock rapids and 98k to unlock vigor. On the PTS these values will be switched.
So why do I think we need rapids to stay on level 1:

- At low levels your mount speed is so low the game is almost unplayable. It also takes a huge amount of time to get this mount speed to an acceptable level. Rapids immediately makes the game playable because a better mount speed.

- Every build uses rapids, not every build uses vigor. Magicka users never use vigor and a lot of stamina builds don’t need vigor either. Vigor is for builds where survival depends highly on the player him/herself and not on the healer: vMA, PvP and endgame PvE group content.

- In fact, low leveled players don’t even need vigor! At lower levels a player is carried hugely by the increased attributes so should be able to complete most content with just that. A low level player cant even sustain vigor! It is by no means a reliable heal at low levels…

- Not everyone has the time or money to plan all his alternate characters, buy character slots and already level the characters mount speed at a stable.

- Not everyone likes to PvP for the skills. While I agree rewards should only be given after someone has put energy into something, Rapids has been an AvA lvl 1 skill for a very long time now because it is immediately needed after character creation. And don’t get me wrong, I PvP maybe 50% or more of my time, so all of my alts already have both skills unlocked, but there are a lot of people who don’t have them both yet.

- Even if you want to PvP for it, it takes a huge amount of time to get the needed AP with a slow mount. On a leveled character, the AP is peanuts, but with no speed and low levels there are no means you will be at the AP ticks in Cyrodiil. You can’t yet defend yourself against higher leveled players so killing for AP is out of the question and imagine following a zerg that takes objectives in quick succession. You will miss almost every AP tick, except the keeps, which you will only get when your alliance does well. Let’s face it: the only way to level your AvA skill in a new character is by getting carried.

- Really, imagine again getting rapids on a slow mount, with maybe 10k AP/hour if have bad luck. Play 10 hours before you can use your character for the rest of the game.

- ZOS brings this as an upgrade for stamina builds, but what about all the other builds in the game? Stamina builds don’t even need it at low levels and getting it with rapids unlocked is much easier. Implementing this change will be a huge QOL deterioration.

- Please don’t force people into buying more crown store upgrades.

So this might be a lot of text, but I think its for the best of the game when we keep it as it is now.
What is everyone else thinking?

I voted other and I cant take the credit for this idea but I whole heartedly agree with it. Put Vigor 1 on Support, Rapids 1 on Assault. Done both are very happy both skills are Highly needed in certain areas of the game. I think this will absolutely make a great solution.

redgreensunset

Switch rapids with vigor

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Has it occured to the people who say that they "simply" should switch vigor over to be the first skill in the support skill line that that might not be simple, or even possible codingwise? Gotta love backseat coders.

@MaleAmazon

They already relocated it in a patch (used to be assault rank 10).

...
...
...
...
Yes and? It was still in the Assault skill line, not Support. I'm not talking about moving up and down the same skill line, I'm talking about the people who claim that "it is simple" to just put it over in Support instead of Assault.

tmbrinks

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Guessing mount Speed sales have slowed. This is a bad change. Every character needs rapids, less than half need vigor.

Very True

Now they want to sell the Alliance Skill Line at 3k a pop, just so players can get back to what they had before.

Previously, they have not just "removed" a skill when they've rearranged them (it became "locked" only upon respec). Why the change this time around?

MaleAmazon

Yes and? It was still in the Assault skill line, not Support. I'm not talking about moving up and down the same skill line, I'm talking about the people who claim that "it is simple" to just put it over in Support instead of Assault.

Seeing as how skills change function, sometimes completely, and icons etc change, all the time, there is no reason whatsoever to think this would be a problem.

But whatever.

MincVinyl

Switch rapids with vigor

Rank 5 is like 90kap. That is barely an hour for anyone who knows what they are doing. For new players, a short venture into pvp for the first time wont make them stop playing the game. Most new players wont even know about the ability until someone tells them about it anyways.

tmbrinks

MincVinyl wrote: »

Rank 5 is like 90kap. That is barely an hour for anyone who knows what they are doing. For new players, a short venture into pvp for the first time wont make them stop playing the game. Most new players wont even know about the ability until someone tells them about it anyways.

Exactly. Rank 5 is 90k AP. It'll only take an hour for you to get Vigor.

AlnilamE

Keep it as it is now

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Honestly, PvP is not that bad. You needn't even go to Cyrodiil. Battlegrounds will do plenty and at most it's 14 matches. Almost certainly less.

Oh, I like PvP (though Cyrodiil. I don't find battlegrounds particularly fun).

But I have characters I PvP on and characters I don't. Now I have to grind those alts to level 5 *before* they lose access to Rapids.

And the thing is, with the current state of Cyrodiil, that is going to be less fun than it used to be.

During the Midyear Mayhem, I did a scouting mission every day. Most scouting missions, I had 20 load screens between the keep and the destination. Just running in the middle of nowhere. It was absolutely NOT FUN. And they are asking people who don't enjoy PvP to begin with to go out there in this mess.

Edit: Fixed quote so I'm quoting the right person.

thebratqueen

Keep it as it is now

I am not for this change. I think a thing being overlooked is that not only is Rapids useful for all characters, unlike Vigor, but that some players do not want to even touch PVP at all. They aren't interested, they don't like it, and the idea of "having" to do PVP in order to play ESO would put some people off the game entirely.

Being able to unlock Rapids by doing the tutorial in Cyrodiil, and thus never having the danger of running into a fight, is a super gentle way to get new players to visit Cyrodiil and possibly even realize PVP isn't that scary. You get that with an ability they can actually use. On the other hand forcing them to both go into Cyrodiil and have to encounter other players in order to unlock a non-combat skill will make certain that a certain segment of players won't even bother to try.

Conversely the only players who want Vigor both have the specific build to need it AND already have the motivation to do what they need to in order to get it. There's no worry that the PVP requirement will put them off.

So at bare minimum I don't think switching the two is a good idea. However why is this the only option being presented? Why does it have to be Rapids vs Vigor at all? Seems to me it'd be better to acknowledge that Rapids is a universally needed and desired skill and put it into another skill tree entirely. Have it go under the World skills, for example. If characters can unlock Rapids right now by spending five minutes in Cyrodiil at level 10 then surely there can be some way to unlock it elsewhere and still let ZOS flog riding lessons in the crown store. Heck, make it an automatic unlock when a character hits level 10 and gets a free horse in the first place. Then you can make Vigor and all the other PVP specific skills build however you like without unnecessarily trying to balance needs against a skill that probably shouldn't be in that tree to begin with.

Galarthor

Keep it as it is now

ZOS finally gave in to a vocal minority, who cannot be asked to spend an hour or two to get a skill. And in the process of doing so ruined the experience for anyone else - especially new players and new characters.

What happened to inclusion and letting everybody participate in all content - you know the whole floor meeting ceiling thing. How are new players and new characters will have a hard time participating in pvp when they got anywhere between 1 and 10 speed on a mount. By the time they get to a battlefield / keep the fight will be long over. Which will make leveling up the alliance war skill line to finally get that movement speed all the more painful.

Literally everybody I know can't wait to reach level 10 to finally get the major Gallop to finally get around with some half-way decent skill. That 1 skill alone is worth 1 month of leveling up your horse! It is one of the most important skills in the game. Moving it further up a skill line that almost requires you to have that movement speed buff in order to level said skill line is a really bad idea. This is one of the worst thought through changes I have seen in long time!

And I am saying this while I am not even affected by this change! Why? B/c having people crawl at a snail's pace across the vast zones is just outright cruel! There are other ways to heal you at lower levels ... especially when you get buffed so much that it doesn't even matter what gear you wear and what skills you use. And with the speed buff available for free you can just leech a few keep ticks to obtain Vigor. The same is not true if you get vigor for free and have to farm rapids, b/c in most case with your slow mount and without a speed buff, you will never make it to the keeps in time!

Please ZOS, don't ruin the experience for new players and new characters for the sake a small vocal minority - especially b/c the status quo has no impact on the performance in the game. They just have to spend an hour or two in pvp. You usually have to spend far more time in pve leveling up your skill lines to unlock necessary survival skills there!

DaveMoeDee

Switch rapids with vigor

VoxAdActa wrote: »

People actually slot Rapid in PvE? That boggles my mind. How much time is that saving you, going from the wayshrine to your quest, like a whole 6 seconds?
...

You sound very unfamiliar with PvE quests and all the other things that people have to travel for, like surveys and excavating.

what_the

Switch rapids with vigor

This is a great and welcome change!
Since most new PvP players will now group up with veteran PvP players ( who will have Rapids) they can now also have Vigor almost right away to help them survive a litter better in the PvP environment, it's a win/win situation for the novice player.
In PvE. riding speed doesn't matter as much for the new player, and is not critical in the leveling process, it is a QoL perk sure, but a person can level and get around just fine training their horse/using wayshrines/friends with Rapids ( I leveled 10 toons to 50 without rapids), but having Vigor in PvE for a new player will help them quite a bit more with survival, and maybe help them feel that much more useful in a PvE group doing overland bosses/dungeons/whatever....

UrQuan

Keep it as it is now

What characters want Vigor?

• Non-warden stamina characters who do a lot of PVP, or who want to do "harder" (as in: not just regular questing, etc) PVE content without a healer.

What characters want Rapids?

• All of them.

What are the consequences of a character that wants Vigor not having access to it?

• You die more often in combat.

What are the consequences of a character that wants Rapids not having access to it?

• You get to more sieges/dolmens/harrowstorms/dragons/geysers after they're over and miss the combat entirely.

Personally I've got 18 characters who wouldn't be impacted by the proposed change (all of them have alliance war skill lines at or above 5), and 36 who will be losing Rapids. Of the 36 who will lose Rapids, I don't care about getting Vigor on a single one of them, because they're either magicka characters, or they're stam characters who have never needed a self-heal that's any stronger than the ones already available to them without Vigor. If I wanted Vigor on any of them, it would be easier to grind out the AP in Cyrodiil with Rapids and no Vigor than vice versa, because I'd be able to get to sieges in time to tag folks with siege and earn AP.

SydneyGrey

Keep it as it is now

The whole idea is ridiculous. How can newer characters run through Cyrodiil without Rapids? By the time they got to the fight, it would be over.

DigitalHype

Keep it as it is now

January1171 wrote: »

They should keep rapids where it is, and move vigor to slot two. Or move vigor to one and rapids at two. But if ZOS's reasoning is "we want a better leveling experience" moving rapids to SLOT THREE is not the way to do it.

Of course my inner cynic wonders if that it might be a ploy to get people to buy riding lessons.

That was my first thought when I read it. They want push the sales. Coincidentally, I've been getting the pop-up crown store spam pushing the riding lessons in the past 2 days.

Xologamer

Switch rapids with vigor

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Xologamer wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points

These are the actual numbers to get to Alliance 5.

It's not much, trust me.

So I am sticking with ZOS on this one. Switch Rapids with Vigor.

Contrary to popular belief, Rapids is absolutely not essential for PvE. It's a group buff anyway so the horse boost will be easy to get for everyone in those few Trials and Dungeons where fast mounts do make a difference. Only one group member needs it equipped.

Is it important in Cyrodiil? Very. But Vigor is even more important. Rapids will not keep you alive in a battle. Vigor will. This change is not for PvE players. That they do get some benefit from a good stamina heal is coincidence. I am glad of course. Not least because again, in group content, Vigor is far more useful for the stam-dd's and to a lesser extent, tanks. (I have some odd builds but they work lol)

But Rapids? That AP you need to get Alliance 5 is nothing. 98k AP is not a lot. It's a little bit of time in Cyrodiil. Actually, BG is plenty to do it. Make sure you take your daily quests as it'll speed things up a lot.

Will you be slow in Cyrodiil for a bit? Yes. But like I say, BG works well at this point and it's a useless skill there. Or play Cyrodiil smart and use the Transistus network. You'll be surprised. Especially in below-50 which is where you should level the skill line anyway, if going for the full Alliance 10.

aliance rank 5 isnt the same as skillline lvl 5

And what are the two skill lines known as collectively, hmm?

soo dude u wont belive me : ok ...
(source https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points)

mhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
(if u dont understand it basicly says that at aliance rank 5 u would be skill line 4 and if u reach alliance rank 6 with 88k ap u would be skill line lvl5)

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Switch rapids with vigor

Linaleah wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")




...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)

its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)

I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.

edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.

do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.

and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?

Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.

PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.

I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?

this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.

PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.

***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***

UrQuan

Keep it as it is now

Xologamer wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Xologamer wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points

These are the actual numbers to get to Alliance 5.

It's not much, trust me.

So I am sticking with ZOS on this one. Switch Rapids with Vigor.

Contrary to popular belief, Rapids is absolutely not essential for PvE. It's a group buff anyway so the horse boost will be easy to get for everyone in those few Trials and Dungeons where fast mounts do make a difference. Only one group member needs it equipped.

Is it important in Cyrodiil? Very. But Vigor is even more important. Rapids will not keep you alive in a battle. Vigor will. This change is not for PvE players. That they do get some benefit from a good stamina heal is coincidence. I am glad of course. Not least because again, in group content, Vigor is far more useful for the stam-dd's and to a lesser extent, tanks. (I have some odd builds but they work lol)

But Rapids? That AP you need to get Alliance 5 is nothing. 98k AP is not a lot. It's a little bit of time in Cyrodiil. Actually, BG is plenty to do it. Make sure you take your daily quests as it'll speed things up a lot.

Will you be slow in Cyrodiil for a bit? Yes. But like I say, BG works well at this point and it's a useless skill there. Or play Cyrodiil smart and use the Transistus network. You'll be surprised. Especially in below-50 which is where you should level the skill line anyway, if going for the full Alliance 10.

aliance rank 5 isnt the same as skillline lvl 5

And what are the two skill lines known as collectively, hmm?

soo dude u wont belive me : ok ...
(source https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points)

mhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
(if u dont understand it basicly says that at aliance rank 5 u would be skill line 4 and if u reach alliance rank 6 with 88k ap u would be skill line lvl5)

Did you not notice that he quoted 98K AP as the amount to unlock skill line level 5? You know, the actual right amount that it takes to unlock skill line level 5, and notably not the lesser amount that it takes to unlock alliance rank 5? Come on, it's obvious what he was talking about, and he got his numbers right. He obviously understands how it works. You're not teaching him anything he doesn't know.

Ri_Khan

Other:

"Vigor: This ability is now first in the skill line to unlock, and has swapped places with Rapid Maneuvers in efforts to help builds focused on Stamina to have a healthier leveling experience. Previous XP gained in both of these skills will be retained, but if your Assault skill line is too low to obtain the 3rd skill, you will have to level it in order to gain access to Rapid Maneuvers again."

Say what now? This is unclear. What does Caltrops have to do with any of this???

karthrag_inak

Other:

redgreensunset wrote: »

Has it occured to the people who say that they "simply" should switch vigor over to be the first skill in the support skill line that that might not be simple, or even possible codingwise? Gotta love backseat coders.

This one wrote his first doubly linked list in highschool in 1983. Willing to bet that it really is "that simple".