Please do not swap rapids with vigor – QOL deterioration

caperb · July 2020

In the PTS Patch Notes v6.1.0 we see a very unwelcoming change:

Alliance War
• Assault
o Vigor: This ability is now first in the skill line to unlock, and has swapped places with Rapid Maneuvers in efforts to help builds focused on Stamina to have a healthier leveling experience. Previous XP gained in both of these skills will be retained, but if your Assault skill line is too low to obtain the 3rd skill, you will have to level it in order to gain access to Rapid Maneuvers again.

I do not understand why this change is coming. Rapid Maneuver is one of the most important skills in the game on EVERY character, especially at low levels. Actually almost everyone I talked with about this change didn’t like it, so I’m curious what you guys on the forums think about it. For myself, everytime I make a new character the first thing I do is level it to 10 and enter Cyrodiil to do the starter quest and unlock rapids. The single reason for this is to make the character playable. The mount speed at early levels is so low that without rapids, everything you do takes almost double the time or even worse.

At this moment you need almost zero AP to unlock rapids and 98k to unlock vigor. On the PTS these values will be switched.
So why do I think we need rapids to stay on level 1:

- At low levels your mount speed is so low the game is almost unplayable. It also takes a huge amount of time to get this mount speed to an acceptable level. Rapids immediately makes the game playable because a better mount speed.

- Every build uses rapids, not every build uses vigor. Magicka users never use vigor and a lot of stamina builds don’t need vigor either. Vigor is for builds where survival depends highly on the player him/herself and not on the healer: vMA, PvP and endgame PvE group content.

- In fact, low leveled players don’t even need vigor! At lower levels a player is carried hugely by the increased attributes so should be able to complete most content with just that. A low level player cant even sustain vigor! It is by no means a reliable heal at low levels…

- Not everyone has the time or money to plan all his alternate characters, buy character slots and already level the characters mount speed at a stable.

- Not everyone likes to PvP for the skills. While I agree rewards should only be given after someone has put energy into something, Rapids has been an AvA lvl 1 skill for a very long time now because it is immediately needed after character creation. And don’t get me wrong, I PvP maybe 50% or more of my time, so all of my alts already have both skills unlocked, but there are a lot of people who don’t have them both yet.

- Even if you want to PvP for it, it takes a huge amount of time to get the needed AP with a slow mount. On a leveled character, the AP is peanuts, but with no speed and low levels there are no means you will be at the AP ticks in Cyrodiil. You can’t yet defend yourself against higher leveled players so killing for AP is out of the question and imagine following a zerg that takes objectives in quick succession. You will miss almost every AP tick, except the keeps, which you will only get when your alliance does well. Let’s face it: the only way to level your AvA skill in a new character is by getting carried.

- Really, imagine again getting rapids on a slow mount, with maybe 10k AP/hour if have bad luck. Play 10 hours before you can use your character for the rest of the game.

- ZOS brings this as an upgrade for stamina builds, but what about all the other builds in the game? Stamina builds don’t even need it at low levels and getting it with rapids unlocked is much easier. Implementing this change will be a huge QOL deterioration.

- Please don’t force people into buying more crown store upgrades.

So this might be a lot of text, but I think its for the best of the game when we keep it as it is now.
What is everyone else thinking?

CMDR_Un1k0rn · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points

These are the actual numbers to get to Alliance 5.

It's not much, trust me.

So I am sticking with ZOS on this one. Switch Rapids with Vigor.

Contrary to popular belief, Rapids is absolutely not essential for PvE. It's a group buff anyway so the horse boost will be easy to get for everyone in those few Trials and Dungeons where fast mounts do make a difference. Only one group member needs it equipped.

Is it important in Cyrodiil? Very. But Vigor is even more important. Rapids will not keep you alive in a battle. Vigor will. This change is not for PvE players. That they do get some benefit from a good stamina heal is coincidence. I am glad of course. Not least because again, in group content, Vigor is far more useful for the stam-dd's and to a lesser extent, tanks. (I have some odd builds but they work lol)

But Rapids? That AP you need to get Alliance 5 is nothing. 98k AP is not a lot. It's a little bit of time in Cyrodiil. Actually, BG is plenty to do it. Make sure you take your daily quests as it'll speed things up a lot.

Will you be slow in Cyrodiil for a bit? Yes. But like I say, BG works well at this point and it's a useless skill there. Or play Cyrodiil smart and use the Transistus network. You'll be surprised. Especially in below-50 which is where you should level the skill line anyway, if going for the full Alliance 10.

Edaphon · July 2020

Other:

Doesn't matter, both are very easy to get.

Xologamer · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points

These are the actual numbers to get to Alliance 5.

It's not much, trust me.

So I am sticking with ZOS on this one. Switch Rapids with Vigor.

Contrary to popular belief, Rapids is absolutely not essential for PvE. It's a group buff anyway so the horse boost will be easy to get for everyone in those few Trials and Dungeons where fast mounts do make a difference. Only one group member needs it equipped.

Is it important in Cyrodiil? Very. But Vigor is even more important. Rapids will not keep you alive in a battle. Vigor will. This change is not for PvE players. That they do get some benefit from a good stamina heal is coincidence. I am glad of course. Not least because again, in group content, Vigor is far more useful for the stam-dd's and to a lesser extent, tanks. (I have some odd builds but they work lol)

But Rapids? That AP you need to get Alliance 5 is nothing. 98k AP is not a lot. It's a little bit of time in Cyrodiil. Actually, BG is plenty to do it. Make sure you take your daily quests as it'll speed things up a lot.

Will you be slow in Cyrodiil for a bit? Yes. But like I say, BG works well at this point and it's a useless skill there. Or play Cyrodiil smart and use the Transistus network. You'll be surprised. Especially in below-50 which is where you should level the skill line anyway, if going for the full Alliance 10.

aliance rank 5 isnt the same as skillline lvl 5

jecks33 · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

"You can buy speed upgrades in our fantastic Clown Store" Zos.

January1171 · July 2020

Other:

They should keep rapids where it is, and move vigor to slot two. Or move vigor to one and rapids at two. But if ZOS's reasoning is "we want a better leveling experience" moving rapids to SLOT THREE is not the way to do it.

Of course my inner cynic wonders if that it might be a ploy to get people to buy riding lessons.

CMDR_Un1k0rn · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

Xologamer wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points

These are the actual numbers to get to Alliance 5.

It's not much, trust me.

So I am sticking with ZOS on this one. Switch Rapids with Vigor.

Contrary to popular belief, Rapids is absolutely not essential for PvE. It's a group buff anyway so the horse boost will be easy to get for everyone in those few Trials and Dungeons where fast mounts do make a difference. Only one group member needs it equipped.

Is it important in Cyrodiil? Very. But Vigor is even more important. Rapids will not keep you alive in a battle. Vigor will. This change is not for PvE players. That they do get some benefit from a good stamina heal is coincidence. I am glad of course. Not least because again, in group content, Vigor is far more useful for the stam-dd's and to a lesser extent, tanks. (I have some odd builds but they work lol)

But Rapids? That AP you need to get Alliance 5 is nothing. 98k AP is not a lot. It's a little bit of time in Cyrodiil. Actually, BG is plenty to do it. Make sure you take your daily quests as it'll speed things up a lot.

Will you be slow in Cyrodiil for a bit? Yes. But like I say, BG works well at this point and it's a useless skill there. Or play Cyrodiil smart and use the Transistus network. You'll be surprised. Especially in below-50 which is where you should level the skill line anyway, if going for the full Alliance 10.

aliance rank 5 isnt the same as skillline lvl 5

And what are the two skill lines known as collectively, hmm?

idk · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

I agree with CMDR that this change is good for the game overall. Vigor is more important in both PvE and PvP. This is a change that makes sense.

Further, Zos has made it very easy and fast to unlock all the skills in both AvA lines. It used to require several times that amount of AP to get to the same ranks and Zos has already significantly increased the amount of AP we have gained.

Edit: The poll is likely to be skewed anyhow. Players that prefer magicka and have little to no interest in stam builds will more than likely want to keep things as they are. However, that does not reflect on this change being good or not.

ArchangelIsraphel · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

If you actually want to PVP and play in cyrodil, it doesn't take much to unlock Vigor- leave Assault as it is because it is far more convenient on an underleveled new character to have that Assault skill available to actually KEEP UP with your alliance when going between keeps to GET the other skills >_>

caperb · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

idk wrote: »

I agree with CMDR that this change is good for the game overall. Vigor is more important in both PvE and PvP. This is a change that makes sense.

Further, Zos has made it very easy and fast to unlock all the skills in both AvA lines. It used to require several times that amount of AP to get to the same ranks and Zos has already significantly increased the amount of AP we have gained.

I don't deny that vigor is more important in endgame. My main point is that rapids is needed immediately on all builds, while this isn't the same for vigor. Getting the AP on a leveled character is very easy yes, but on a character with low mount speed it is not. ZOS is making a change that will do no good for new characters, while usually a leveled character has done enough PvP to unlock both anyway.

caperb · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Xologamer wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points

These are the actual numbers to get to Alliance 5.

It's not much, trust me.

So I am sticking with ZOS on this one. Switch Rapids with Vigor.

Contrary to popular belief, Rapids is absolutely not essential for PvE. It's a group buff anyway so the horse boost will be easy to get for everyone in those few Trials and Dungeons where fast mounts do make a difference. Only one group member needs it equipped.

Is it important in Cyrodiil? Very. But Vigor is even more important. Rapids will not keep you alive in a battle. Vigor will. This change is not for PvE players. That they do get some benefit from a good stamina heal is coincidence. I am glad of course. Not least because again, in group content, Vigor is far more useful for the stam-dd's and to a lesser extent, tanks. (I have some odd builds but they work lol)

But Rapids? That AP you need to get Alliance 5 is nothing. 98k AP is not a lot. It's a little bit of time in Cyrodiil. Actually, BG is plenty to do it. Make sure you take your daily quests as it'll speed things up a lot.

Will you be slow in Cyrodiil for a bit? Yes. But like I say, BG works well at this point and it's a useless skill there. Or play Cyrodiil smart and use the Transistus network. You'll be surprised. Especially in below-50 which is where you should level the skill line anyway, if going for the full Alliance 10.

aliance rank 5 isnt the same as skillline lvl 5

And what are the two skill lines known as collectively, hmm?

The skilline will become lvl 5 when your AvA rank is 6 already

FierceSam · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

This is just a con to force EVERYONE to do a minimum of PvP instead of just stam characters.

Riding speed for new characters (let alone new players) is a f-ing disgrace that is compounded by ZOS flogging massively overpriced riding scrolls all over the place.

How a new player is supposed to get about Cyrodiil on a slow pony is a total f-ing mystery to me... they’ll be nothing but w**k ganking fodder, not to mention take part in fun events like Witches when they’ll have to ride the length of Auridon at walking speed (no fun at all).

But helpful ZOS have a solution. Your mates can buy an expensive dwarven taxi to carry you around... just 6000 gems

This change makes the Maelstrom weapon treatment look like a day at the spa.

Gythral · July 2020

Other:

Really dont want to level 18 chars through PvP to get skills they already have (back)

because someone decided Z was needed more than A...

Want to give all the chars enough alliance points to keep it, then fine,but nerfing everyone just so some other newb can HAVE a limited skill!!!

No thanks!!!

Make vigor need 2 or 3 instead of 5 is maybe a better choice!
or even better move it out of PvP and into fighters guild or Undaunted!

Stahlor · July 2020

The question is, why is the best stam heal a PvP skill? The changes make sense in a way, but more logical would be putting vigor for example into fighters guild skill line.

Donny_Vito · July 2020

And I'm sure the fact that you can alternatively buy speed scrolls from the crown store didn't come up as a reason during the decision-making process!

CMDR_Un1k0rn · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

caperb wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Xologamer wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points

These are the actual numbers to get to Alliance 5.

It's not much, trust me.

So I am sticking with ZOS on this one. Switch Rapids with Vigor.

Contrary to popular belief, Rapids is absolutely not essential for PvE. It's a group buff anyway so the horse boost will be easy to get for everyone in those few Trials and Dungeons where fast mounts do make a difference. Only one group member needs it equipped.

Is it important in Cyrodiil? Very. But Vigor is even more important. Rapids will not keep you alive in a battle. Vigor will. This change is not for PvE players. That they do get some benefit from a good stamina heal is coincidence. I am glad of course. Not least because again, in group content, Vigor is far more useful for the stam-dd's and to a lesser extent, tanks. (I have some odd builds but they work lol)

But Rapids? That AP you need to get Alliance 5 is nothing. 98k AP is not a lot. It's a little bit of time in Cyrodiil. Actually, BG is plenty to do it. Make sure you take your daily quests as it'll speed things up a lot.

Will you be slow in Cyrodiil for a bit? Yes. But like I say, BG works well at this point and it's a useless skill there. Or play Cyrodiil smart and use the Transistus network. You'll be surprised. Especially in below-50 which is where you should level the skill line anyway, if going for the full Alliance 10.

aliance rank 5 isnt the same as skillline lvl 5

And what are the two skill lines known as collectively, hmm?

The skilline will become lvl 5 when your AvA rank is 6 already

I know. I literally provided the link with all the details. Me. The information is right there in the first thread reply.

Twisting words is a common tactic used when you can't think of a better argument.

Mostly because there really is no argument, to be frank.

Wording aside, there is nothing "false" about the low requirements to get both skills now or post-stonethorn. And that is the bit that really matters for the sake of this discussion.

caperb · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

caperb wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Xologamer wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points

These are the actual numbers to get to Alliance 5.

It's not much, trust me.

So I am sticking with ZOS on this one. Switch Rapids with Vigor.

Contrary to popular belief, Rapids is absolutely not essential for PvE. It's a group buff anyway so the horse boost will be easy to get for everyone in those few Trials and Dungeons where fast mounts do make a difference. Only one group member needs it equipped.

Is it important in Cyrodiil? Very. But Vigor is even more important. Rapids will not keep you alive in a battle. Vigor will. This change is not for PvE players. That they do get some benefit from a good stamina heal is coincidence. I am glad of course. Not least because again, in group content, Vigor is far more useful for the stam-dd's and to a lesser extent, tanks. (I have some odd builds but they work lol)

But Rapids? That AP you need to get Alliance 5 is nothing. 98k AP is not a lot. It's a little bit of time in Cyrodiil. Actually, BG is plenty to do it. Make sure you take your daily quests as it'll speed things up a lot.

Will you be slow in Cyrodiil for a bit? Yes. But like I say, BG works well at this point and it's a useless skill there. Or play Cyrodiil smart and use the Transistus network. You'll be surprised. Especially in below-50 which is where you should level the skill line anyway, if going for the full Alliance 10.

aliance rank 5 isnt the same as skillline lvl 5

And what are the two skill lines known as collectively, hmm?

The skilline will become lvl 5 when your AvA rank is 6 already

I know. I literally provided the link with all the details. Me. The information is right there in the first thread reply.

Twisting words is a common tactic used when you can't think of a better argument.

Mostly because there really is no argument, to be frank.

Wording aside, there is nothing "false" about the low requirements to get both skills now or post-stonethorn. And that is the bit that really matters for the sake of this discussion.

Hmm, I think we disagree on that part then.

Sure, on a leveled character it is extremely easy to get both skills, but that is not what I made this thread for.

It is the low leveled characters I'm worried about. It takes quite long on a new alt to get some AP, and rapids is immediately needed to make the game a bit playable at low levels. In my opinion vigor isn't needed at level 10, is easy to get at a higher level and removing rapids from assault level 1 is just unnecessary.

Jem_Kindheart · July 2020

I kinda think it's fine as is for the following reasons:

What's the first thing you do when you get to lvl 10 on a new char with your slowwwww turtle pony? Go do Welcome to Cyro and get yer Rapids. Boom, it's done, and it makes that intro riding around without shrines yet much less painful. Is Vigor going to help you at lvl 10~50? No lol. Every class has a couple decent heals that can get you through your delves and lowbie dungeons just fine.

Vigor is already at Slot 2 right after Rapids, if you really need Vigor for Stam DD when you get your char above 160 and start dabbling in Veteran content, you can unlock Vigor in Slot 2 in just a couple super casual Cyro days or half an afternoon of dedication. This seems fair and not asking too much.

So this seems fine as it is. The only people hurt by the current positioning are those scared to death of the mere thought of going into Cyrodiil, much less for an afternoon or a casual couple days to get Vigor. I know, I'm in guilds with lots of em haha

Contrastingly, as others pointed out above, moving Rapids down is a pretty big QoL hit for all players making new chars, with the benefit of ez Vigor for a small group of players who really shouldn't need Vigor at lowbie levels. Not really a big deal just a dumb, dumb, phenomenally stupid decision.

CMDR_Un1k0rn · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

caperb wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

caperb wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Xologamer wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points

These are the actual numbers to get to Alliance 5.

It's not much, trust me.

So I am sticking with ZOS on this one. Switch Rapids with Vigor.

Contrary to popular belief, Rapids is absolutely not essential for PvE. It's a group buff anyway so the horse boost will be easy to get for everyone in those few Trials and Dungeons where fast mounts do make a difference. Only one group member needs it equipped.

Is it important in Cyrodiil? Very. But Vigor is even more important. Rapids will not keep you alive in a battle. Vigor will. This change is not for PvE players. That they do get some benefit from a good stamina heal is coincidence. I am glad of course. Not least because again, in group content, Vigor is far more useful for the stam-dd's and to a lesser extent, tanks. (I have some odd builds but they work lol)

But Rapids? That AP you need to get Alliance 5 is nothing. 98k AP is not a lot. It's a little bit of time in Cyrodiil. Actually, BG is plenty to do it. Make sure you take your daily quests as it'll speed things up a lot.

Will you be slow in Cyrodiil for a bit? Yes. But like I say, BG works well at this point and it's a useless skill there. Or play Cyrodiil smart and use the Transistus network. You'll be surprised. Especially in below-50 which is where you should level the skill line anyway, if going for the full Alliance 10.

aliance rank 5 isnt the same as skillline lvl 5

And what are the two skill lines known as collectively, hmm?

The skilline will become lvl 5 when your AvA rank is 6 already

I know. I literally provided the link with all the details. Me. The information is right there in the first thread reply.

Twisting words is a common tactic used when you can't think of a better argument.

Mostly because there really is no argument, to be frank.

Wording aside, there is nothing "false" about the low requirements to get both skills now or post-stonethorn. And that is the bit that really matters for the sake of this discussion.

Hmm, I think we disagree on that part then.

Sure, on a leveled character it is extremely easy to get both skills, but that is not what I made this thread for.

It is the low leveled characters I'm worried about. It takes quite long on a new alt to get some AP, and rapids is immediately needed to make the game a bit playable at low levels. In my opinion vigor isn't needed at level 10, is easy to get at a higher level and removing rapids from assault level 1 is just unnecessary.

No, it doesn't. Use Below-50 content and you will be fine. That is what I do and I have Alliance 5 on the day. CP does not exist in Below-50 content. It is turned off. If anything it is easier to level here.

You see, if doing PvP at lvl 10, then you absolutely do benefit from Vigor. And, well, it's a PvP skill-line at the end of the day. This game needs more PvP rewards, not less. And this is actually a change that benefits both PvP and PvE players! PvE players actually get more benefit IMO. And that really is okay!

And Rapids is needed to "make the game playable at low levels"? What? Like, seriously, what?

No, it really isn't. That is called getting stuff done a bit faster, but it's far from essential in PvE. Can you please tell me where you can't access a town in Stonefalls because it's been sieged by Aldmeri players? That is where Rapids is actually needed. To react to sieges. It doesn't make a difference in PvE beyond shaving a few minutes off getting to your next quest. The PvE zones are honestly not that big.

Despite that though, not having Vigor when running stamina builds may as well mean not bothering in PvP, because you will die, and die very quickly. This is true for most players. That is why Vigor trading places with Rapids is a bigger benefit.

(Yes, I am just going to call it Alliance 5 because you all know what I mean.)

Red_Feather · July 2020

It's to sell them group mounts. <_<

BigBragg · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

BigBragg wrote: »

I'm going to chime in and agree that Rapid's is initially more valuable as well as more universally valuable.

haelene · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

This is the only change I hated from the patch. Everyone uses rapids. Not everyone uses vigor on every character. It doesn't make sense to me to capitulate to the portion of characters who use vigor at the expense of everyone.

Czeri · July 2020

Other:

Speaking as someone who hates PvP it took me forever to get vigor, since I was relying on the alliance point daily rewards. It is a crucial skill, though, particularly since my main is a stamblade, so I have no other self-heals available unless you count the Psijic one that requires not being in combat to use. Rapids is just fluff compared to finally being able to try and tackle any slightly more difficult content.

Having said that, I do recognize that unless you're a nightblade you likely have class heals, so will probably value rapids more.

Kiralyn2000 · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

I've trained 8 characters up to max Speed, playing them while doing so. I've never used Rapid, I never remember seeing people say it was "essential".

On the other hand, I certainly remember everyone when I started (and for a good while afterwards) saying that Vigor was required on Stam characters, so they could have a heal. I definitely felt the lack of it (and any other healing) on my first character (bow Stamblade).

...still wasn't enough to get me to pvp. But now I'll be able to get it on my Stam characters with login bonus AP. Overall, seems like a good change.

the1andonlyskwex · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

Vigor is useful to new players in combat, while rapids is mostly useful for veteran players trying to speedlevel alts. I think ZOS is making a good decision.

newtinmpls · July 2020

Other:

1-keeping rapids first will have EVERYONE (not just the "stam" morps which the devs seem so enamored of) have a good leveling experience.

2-Look at BOTH PvP skill lines, for heaven's sakes - Vigor is NOT an attack -it's a defense! So put it first on the DEFENSE/Support line.

AmoralOne · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

It really doesnt matter. It doesnt take much AP to get there, but for the sake of choosing, it would be nice to have a Stam heal while you are leveling in or out of cyro.

EvilAutoTech · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

Anyone can get to level 10 and the first alliance skill in a couple of hours without really trying. To get to a decent speed on a mount takes a month of logging in every day.

Fur_like_snow · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

So PvErs will have to spend MORE time in PvP to get rapids. *rubs paws together*

Dragonredux · July 2020

Other:

Literally just switch Vigor and Siege Shield from Support. Then both Vigor and Rapids gets unlocked when you complete the tutorial. Stam players get a reliable self heal and everyone gets their mount speed bonus. Siege shield feels better in assault anyways since most people using it are assaulting anyways. Plus, anyone who wants to use this skill pretty much wants to pvp to begin with.

VaranisArano · July 2020

If Vigor becomes the 1st Assault skill, then Rapids should be the 2nd.

Everyone saying "AP is easy to make in Cyrodiil" is missing that it's a lot harder to make AP on a new character with a slow mount when you keep missing fights because it takes forever to get places.

The Elder Scrolls Online

Please do not swap rapids with vigor – QOL deterioration

Please do not swap rapids with vigor – QOL deterioration 468 votes