Also, rapids really are needed by all in pvp pretty fast. This is like a different version of cp vs no cp. But with speed on mounts. Slower you are longer it takes to get around. Really, going for them in BGs is probably better anyway. But still a silly change.

Guyle wrote: »

Mounts are grotesquely slow in the beginning, and rapids makes it more palatable..

Cannot stress this enough. Until at 10 you are better off running. Mounts are way too slow to start in this game.

I have a lot of stam characters, and when I'm levelling them, having a slow horse is worse than not having vigour. Besides on a lowbie I put attributes on both stam and mag, since most skills start as mag, and there's always a mag self heal available. I still grind vigour/caltrops as soon as I can enter Cyro, it's not a lot of AP, but I think rapids are more useful to my lowbies.

Jaimeh wrote: »

I have a lot of stam characters, and when I'm levelling them, having a slow horse is worse than not having vigour. Besides on a lowbie I put attributes on both stam and mag, since most skills start as mag, and there's always a mag self heal available. I still grind vigour/caltrops as soon as I can enter Cyro, it's not a lot of AP, but I think rapids are more useful to my lowbies.

With a slow horse, you really will need that vigor. You'll be dead from constant dismounts, or in far more battles.

Rapids is more important for new characters - it allows to travel through zones and collect skyshards without dying because of slowness. And how I'm supposed to grind AP in Cyrodill without Rapids anyway? It's really great solution to ruin first Cyrodill experiences for new players.

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

caperb wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

caperb wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Xologamer wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points

These are the actual numbers to get to Alliance 5.

It's not much, trust me.

So I am sticking with ZOS on this one. Switch Rapids with Vigor.

Contrary to popular belief, Rapids is absolutely not essential for PvE. It's a group buff anyway so the horse boost will be easy to get for everyone in those few Trials and Dungeons where fast mounts do make a difference. Only one group member needs it equipped.

Is it important in Cyrodiil? Very. But Vigor is even more important. Rapids will not keep you alive in a battle. Vigor will. This change is not for PvE players. That they do get some benefit from a good stamina heal is coincidence. I am glad of course. Not least because again, in group content, Vigor is far more useful for the stam-dd's and to a lesser extent, tanks. (I have some odd builds but they work lol)

But Rapids? That AP you need to get Alliance 5 is nothing. 98k AP is not a lot. It's a little bit of time in Cyrodiil. Actually, BG is plenty to do it. Make sure you take your daily quests as it'll speed things up a lot.

Will you be slow in Cyrodiil for a bit? Yes. But like I say, BG works well at this point and it's a useless skill there. Or play Cyrodiil smart and use the Transistus network. You'll be surprised. Especially in below-50 which is where you should level the skill line anyway, if going for the full Alliance 10.

aliance rank 5 isnt the same as skillline lvl 5

And what are the two skill lines known as collectively, hmm?

The skilline will become lvl 5 when your AvA rank is 6 already

I know. I literally provided the link with all the details. Me. The information is right there in the first thread reply.

Twisting words is a common tactic used when you can't think of a better argument.

Mostly because there really is no argument, to be frank.

Wording aside, there is nothing "false" about the low requirements to get both skills now or post-stonethorn. And that is the bit that really matters for the sake of this discussion.

Hmm, I think we disagree on that part then.

Sure, on a leveled character it is extremely easy to get both skills, but that is not what I made this thread for.

It is the low leveled characters I'm worried about. It takes quite long on a new alt to get some AP, and rapids is immediately needed to make the game a bit playable at low levels. In my opinion vigor isn't needed at level 10, is easy to get at a higher level and removing rapids from assault level 1 is just unnecessary.

No, it doesn't. Use Below-50 content and you will be fine. That is what I do and I have Alliance 5 on the day. CP does not exist in Below-50 content. It is turned off. If anything it is easier to level here.

You see, if doing PvP at lvl 10, then you absolutely do benefit from Vigor. And, well, it's a PvP skill-line at the end of the day. This game needs more PvP rewards, not less. And this is actually a change that benefits both PvP and PvE players! PvE players actually get more benefit IMO. And that really is okay!

And Rapids is needed to "make the game playable at low levels"? What? Like, seriously, what?

No, it really isn't. That is called getting stuff done a bit faster, but it's far from essential in PvE. Can you please tell me where you can't access a town in Stonefalls because it's been sieged by Aldmeri players? That is where Rapids is actually needed. To react to sieges. It doesn't make a difference in PvE beyond shaving a few minutes off getting to your next quest. The PvE zones are honestly not that big.

Despite that though, not having Vigor when running stamina builds may as well mean not bothering in PvP, because you will die, and die very quickly. This is true for most players. That is why Vigor trading places with Rapids is a bigger benefit.

(Yes, I am just going to call it Alliance 5 because you all know what I mean.)

I think you underestimate how many people use Rapids in the game and how many people take every character to Cyrodiil as soon as they are level 10 to unlock that specific skill.

That said, Rapids is very important in PvP and you are going to level a lot slower if you are not making it to the fights.

You still get AP if you are lying dead on the flag. You don't get any AP if you get there when the fight is over.

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Vigor is useful to new players in combat, while rapids is mostly useful for veteran players trying to speedlevel alts. I think ZOS is making a good decision.

rapids is useful to ALL players trying to level any of their characters, especially a first one when they may be short on gold to consistently keep leveling their horse. you do not have to be speed leveling in order to want to move from quest to quest at a reasonable pace.

Eh. A true new player has nothing to compare the speed to, and isn't in a rush (at least, I wasn't). They have no frame of reference to think that Rapids is a 'required' skill. As opposed to the seasoned pro, who's been using fast mounts + Rapids for so long that the idea of playing without it causes withdrawal jitters.

(like I said, I personally have never used the skill in four years, so I just don't get the whole "gotta have it!" thing.* And yeah, I've leveled multiple characters while still training their mounts. Heck, my first character I alternated Speed & Pack Space, because not having room for everything - no leveled bank & no mule alts - was much more important than getting there faster.)

* every once in awhile during some holiday event, I'll see some dude glow and then run a bit faster to do the daily we're all grinding, and I'll think "hmm, I guess that could be a bit useful". But then I forget about it again, because it's just a little more speed. /shrug

that's you. not everyone is you. you have an option right now to forget about rapids, while a new player who feels so sluggish, can ask in chat what they can do to be faster and have rapids suggested to them along with leveling a horse. if the go through with the change though... that option for the rest of us is GONE. and that includes new players who see people around them moving so quickly, wonder how they do it, ask about it and will no longer have such easy acess to it.

Linaleah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Vigor is useful to new players in combat, while rapids is mostly useful for veteran players trying to speedlevel alts. I think ZOS is making a good decision.

rapids is useful to ALL players trying to level any of their characters, especially a first one when they may be short on gold to consistently keep leveling their horse. you do not have to be speed leveling in order to want to move from quest to quest at a reasonable pace.

Eh. A true new player has nothing to compare the speed to, and isn't in a rush (at least, I wasn't). They have no frame of reference to think that Rapids is a 'required' skill. As opposed to the seasoned pro, who's been using fast mounts + Rapids for so long that the idea of playing without it causes withdrawal jitters.

(like I said, I personally have never used the skill in four years, so I just don't get the whole "gotta have it!" thing.* And yeah, I've leveled multiple characters while still training their mounts. Heck, my first character I alternated Speed & Pack Space, because not having room for everything - no leveled bank & no mule alts - was much more important than getting there faster.)

* every once in awhile during some holiday event, I'll see some dude glow and then run a bit faster to do the daily we're all grinding, and I'll think "hmm, I guess that could be a bit useful". But then I forget about it again, because it's just a little more speed. /shrug

that's you. not everyone is you. you have an option right now to forget about rapids, while a new player who feels so sluggish, can ask in chat what they can do to be faster and have rapids suggested to them along with leveling a horse. if the go through with the change though... that option for the rest of us is GONE. and that includes new players who see people around them moving so quickly, wonder how they do it, ask about it and will no longer have such easy acess to it.

Not to mention that if they join groups for open world content like dragons or world bosses, they will be lagging behind.

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Vigor is useful to new players in combat, while rapids is mostly useful for veteran players trying to speedlevel alts. I think ZOS is making a good decision.

This makes zero sense. Whatever is good for leveling alts is also good for new players.

Vigor is actually the one moreso for alts because a fresh new player doesn't need Vigor until they start doing CP content.

I do support the change however. I think spreading the burden of pvp will help populate sub-50 pvp content. I do think that level 3 is too much though, should be level 2. Caltrops should be 3.

Put Rapid to the World skill line.

SydneyGrey wrote: »

All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.

Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.

Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.

That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")




...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.

(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)