Please do not swap rapids with vigor – QOL deterioration

Linaleah

Keep it as it is now

January1171 wrote: »

They should keep rapids where it is, and move vigor to slot two. Or move vigor to one and rapids at two. But if ZOS's reasoning is "we want a better leveling experience" moving rapids to SLOT THREE is not the way to do it.

Of course my inner cynic wonders if that it might be a ploy to get people to buy riding lessons.

all. of. this.

stop thinking of rapids as a trails skill and think of it as "new alt who is just starting to level their horse" skill

most classes have some sort of class heal available early on. ALL classes when starting out - are moving horribly slow and the ONLY way to speed up, pun intended other then rapids and patience - is crown store.

sigh.

proper solution would be to raise early available self heal for classes that are lagging behind to the level of classes that do not. yes, even if some of you may cry "homogenization!" as if having to get vigor.. isn't...

Linaleah

Keep it as it is now

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Vigor is useful to new players in combat, while rapids is mostly useful for veteran players trying to speedlevel alts. I think ZOS is making a good decision.

rapids is useful to ALL players trying to level any of their characters, especially a first one when they may be short on gold to consistently keep leveling their horse. you do not have to be speed leveling in order to want to move from quest to quest at a reasonable pace.

kadochka

Other:

Swap the skills around.. make Vigor and Rapids the first skills on either tree; very easily fixed and it's perfect!
Of course, if they're going for cash grab.. they won't.. :'(

Edit to clarify: if this doesn't happen, keep it as it is!! please!

DarcyMardin

Keep it as it is now

For new characters with slow horses, rapids is absolutely vital. Like many other players, I take all my level 10 characters into Cyrodiil solely to do the initial quest there and get rapids, which stays on my bar most of the time. Otherwise, I rarely PvP at all, I mostly play magicka characters, and I have little use for vigor. Please revert this change!

Kiralyn2000

Switch rapids with vigor

Linaleah wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Vigor is useful to new players in combat, while rapids is mostly useful for veteran players trying to speedlevel alts. I think ZOS is making a good decision.

rapids is useful to ALL players trying to level any of their characters, especially a first one when they may be short on gold to consistently keep leveling their horse. you do not have to be speed leveling in order to want to move from quest to quest at a reasonable pace.

Eh. A true new player has nothing to compare the speed to, and isn't in a rush (at least, I wasn't). They have no frame of reference to think that Rapids is a 'required' skill. As opposed to the seasoned pro, who's been using fast mounts + Rapids for so long that the idea of playing without it causes withdrawal jitters.

(like I said, I personally have never used the skill in four years, so I just don't get the whole "gotta have it!" thing.* And yeah, I've leveled multiple characters while still training their mounts. Heck, my first character I alternated Speed & Pack Space, because not having room for everything - no leveled bank & no mule alts - was much more important than getting there faster.)

* every once in awhile during some holiday event, I'll see some dude glow and then run a bit faster to do the daily we're all grinding, and I'll think "hmm, I guess that could be a bit useful". But then I forget about it again, because it's just a little more speed. /shrug

VoxAdActa

Switch rapids with vigor

People actually slot Rapid in PvE? That boggles my mind. How much time is that saving you, going from the wayshrine to your quest, like a whole 6 seconds?

Anyway. This change was specifically FOR PvE people, like my dad, who refuses to PvP but who runs a stam character that needs Vigor. Now PvE stam people don't have to touch Cyrodiil for more than the intro quest, never have to see another player on the battlefield, and still get their only useful heal (for non-wardens).

As for getting to AvA 6 for rapids... I went from AvA 2 to AvA 7 in just two and a half hours of awkwardly healing and occasionally firing a meatbag at someone. Didn't even have a full five-piece set on at the time, just a weird patchwork of overland drops. It's not that hard, gang.

haelene

Keep it as it is now

VoxAdActa wrote: »

People actually slot Rapid in PvE? That boggles my mind. How much time is that saving you, going from the wayshrine to your quest, like a whole 6 seconds?

Anyway. This change was specifically FOR PvE people, like my dad, who refuses to PvP but who runs a stam character that needs Vigor. Now PvE stam people don't have to touch Cyrodiil for more than the intro quest, never have to see another player on the battlefield, and still get their only useful heal (for non-wardens).

As for getting to AvA 6 for rapids... I went from AvA 2 to AvA 7 in just two and a half hours of awkwardly healing and occasionally firing a meatbag at someone. Didn't even have a full five-piece set on at the time, just a weird patchwork of overland drops. It's not that hard, gang.

Everyone I know in Pve uses rapids. Everyone. And no, it's a heck of a lot more than 6 seconds - especially if you're using it to get to a timed event fast - like say, a harrowstorm or a boss battle that's already started. It can be the difference between getting there and not.

DocFrost72

Switch rapids with vigor

Staying alive is more important to me than having rapids, in all aspects of game life.

Know what the last time I used Rapids unironically was? Getting across rash merchant's plummet. I can't remember using it any other time, seriously. Even in vHRC, we needed one of twelve to pop it.

I use vigor on every single stamina build. Every single one.

Good change.

hakan

Switch rapids with vigor

LOL at "its essential for every build". Dude people were complaining that stam cant reliably heal and they changed that. Its been wanted for years.

All these crown store theories just funny really.

haelene

Keep it as it is now

hakan wrote: »

LOL at "its essential for every build". Dude people were complaining that stam cant reliably heal and they changed that. Its been wanted for years.

All these crown store theories just funny really.

Doesn't have to be at the expense of everyone though? Both stam and mag builds use rapids.

They can simply make vigor #2 on the list.

VoxAdActa

Switch rapids with vigor

haelene wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

People actually slot Rapid in PvE? That boggles my mind. How much time is that saving you, going from the wayshrine to your quest, like a whole 6 seconds?

Anyway. This change was specifically FOR PvE people, like my dad, who refuses to PvP but who runs a stam character that needs Vigor. Now PvE stam people don't have to touch Cyrodiil for more than the intro quest, never have to see another player on the battlefield, and still get their only useful heal (for non-wardens).

As for getting to AvA 6 for rapids... I went from AvA 2 to AvA 7 in just two and a half hours of awkwardly healing and occasionally firing a meatbag at someone. Didn't even have a full five-piece set on at the time, just a weird patchwork of overland drops. It's not that hard, gang.

Everyone I know in Pve uses rapids. Everyone.

See, that just shows the variety of experiences that exist in a single game. I've been playing for more than two years and have never once seen Rapids used by anyone outside of PvP.

Maybe it's people who do that brand of solo questing where you just skip all the dialogue and run from compass point to compass point without stopping for anything in between?

Gythral

Other:

can see it now...
need rapids back
<loading screen>
2 yrds into scout mission
<loading screen>
4 yrds into scout mission
<loading screen>
6 yrds into scout mission
<loading screen>
8 yrds into scout mission
oh <fudge> this --- new game time...

haelene

Keep it as it is now

VoxAdActa wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

People actually slot Rapid in PvE? That boggles my mind. How much time is that saving you, going from the wayshrine to your quest, like a whole 6 seconds?

Anyway. This change was specifically FOR PvE people, like my dad, who refuses to PvP but who runs a stam character that needs Vigor. Now PvE stam people don't have to touch Cyrodiil for more than the intro quest, never have to see another player on the battlefield, and still get their only useful heal (for non-wardens).

As for getting to AvA 6 for rapids... I went from AvA 2 to AvA 7 in just two and a half hours of awkwardly healing and occasionally firing a meatbag at someone. Didn't even have a full five-piece set on at the time, just a weird patchwork of overland drops. It's not that hard, gang.

Everyone I know in Pve uses rapids. Everyone.

See, that just shows the variety of experiences that exist in a single game. I've been playing for more than two years and have never once seen Rapids used by anyone outside of PvP.

Maybe it's people who do that brand of solo questing where you just skip all the dialogue and run from compass point to compass point without stopping for anything in between?

Nope! I read every quest and take my time. That said, if I'm trying to get to a harrowstorm (or a boss battle or any timed event) or keep up with a group, rapids is a must. That and gathering skyshards or doing antiquities or leveling that mages/psijic skill lines.

Also I don't believe you haven't seen people use rapids outside of PvP. Spend a few seconds in one of the crafting areas and you'll see it pretty plain as day.

The biggest point here is that this change effects more people negatively than it helps. Every character can make good use of rapids - it doesn't have the prerequisite of playing a certain way. It's useful. Vigor? Only really useful to hybrids (lol, hybrids in eso? Good one, I know. ;P) and stam characters.

Nobody is saying that Vigor shouldn't be easier to acquire. We're saying it shouldn't be at the expense of rapids. That's all.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

Switch rapids with vigor

I just did the maths.

14 Battlegrounds games are all you need to hit Alliance 5 if you lose every game.

It's not hard.

One or two Below-50 sieges and you're talking way less, too. And if you pair it with PvP daily quests, less still.

kadochka

Other:

VoxAdActa wrote: »

People actually slot Rapid in PvE? That boggles my mind. How much time is that saving you, going from the wayshrine to your quest, like a whole 6 seconds?

Well, you don't need to be rude. Yes, almost everyone uses Rapids. It's especially helpful on newer characters who don't have speed points yet.

VoxAdActa wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

People actually slot Rapid in PvE? That boggles my mind. How much time is that saving you, going from the wayshrine to your quest, like a whole 6 seconds?

Anyway. This change was specifically FOR PvE people, like my dad, who refuses to PvP but who runs a stam character that needs Vigor. Now PvE stam people don't have to touch Cyrodiil for more than the intro quest, never have to see another player on the battlefield, and still get their only useful heal (for non-wardens).

As for getting to AvA 6 for rapids... I went from AvA 2 to AvA 7 in just two and a half hours of awkwardly healing and occasionally firing a meatbag at someone. Didn't even have a full five-piece set on at the time, just a weird patchwork of overland drops. It's not that hard, gang.

Everyone I know in Pve uses rapids. Everyone.

See, that just shows the variety of experiences that exist in a single game. I've been playing for more than two years and have never once seen Rapids used by anyone outside of PvP.

You don't see other people using Rapids. The effects only display for you. Trust me, Rapids is important to so, so many people.

I do not PvP. At all. Yet Rapids is uber-important for me!

VaranisArano

VoxAdActa wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

People actually slot Rapid in PvE? That boggles my mind. How much time is that saving you, going from the wayshrine to your quest, like a whole 6 seconds?

Anyway. This change was specifically FOR PvE people, like my dad, who refuses to PvP but who runs a stam character that needs Vigor. Now PvE stam people don't have to touch Cyrodiil for more than the intro quest, never have to see another player on the battlefield, and still get their only useful heal (for non-wardens).

As for getting to AvA 6 for rapids... I went from AvA 2 to AvA 7 in just two and a half hours of awkwardly healing and occasionally firing a meatbag at someone. Didn't even have a full five-piece set on at the time, just a weird patchwork of overland drops. It's not that hard, gang.

Everyone I know in Pve uses rapids. Everyone.

Maybe it's people who do that brand of solo questing where you just skip all the dialogue and run from compass point to compass point without stopping for anything in between?

No, it's not just those people, but thanks for trying.

I use rapids in PVE questing when I want to get from point A to point B without fighting non-quest mobs along the way. Especially if there's a big gap in quest locations or I'm getting back to where I left off after doing PVP or something else.

I use rapids in PVE questing when I'm joining a daily group and I don't want them to have to wait on my slow mount.

I use rapids in PVE when I'm trying to get to a time-limited event like a dolmen, geyser, Dragon hunt, etc. before its finished and I have to wait.

It's a darned useful skill to have when I want it, particularly on my alts which usually have less than 10 mount speed.

Sylvermynx

Other:

I don't use either on any character. So whatever happens is okay with me.

DocFrost72

Switch rapids with vigor

I respect the argument that others like rapids, but consider this.

Without rapids, you get there later.

Without vigor, you don't get there at all. You die.

Combat > convenience, to me.

VaranisArano

Also, anyone who complained during Midyear Mayhem PVP about "if I die, I have to ride back and try again" should realize that this change will only make having to ride back that much more painful if you don't have rapids.

CombatPrayer

Keep it as it is now

Not that ESO cares, but this will really Frell under 50 cyro. No rapids in there on slow horses with minimal feeding will basically ruin the experience for anyone coming in fresh. This is an idiotic move with regards to that. Should at minimum be second skill. Third is a crazy grind. And might destroy new players desire to even bother with PVP. Cyro is vast on a broke down slow pony. Good luck with that.

haelene

Keep it as it is now

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I respect the argument that others like rapids, but consider this.

Without rapids, you get there later.

Without vigor, you don't get there at all. You die.

Combat > convenience, to me.

I see your point - but only if you're a stam character.

Assuming half the characters in eso are stam and half are mag - vigor is potentially useful to 50% of all characters.

Rapids is potentially useful to 100% of characters.

Ragged_Claw

Dragonredux wrote: »

Literally just switch Vigor and Siege Shield from Support. Then both Vigor and Rapids gets unlocked when you complete the tutorial. Stam players get a reliable self heal and everyone gets their mount speed bonus. Siege shield feels better in assault anyways since most people using it are assaulting anyways. Plus, anyone who wants to use this skill pretty much wants to pvp to begin with.

This was my thinking too. That, or put Rapids second in line like others have said. I'm happy to get vigour without having to spend much time in PvP (I suck at it), but totally get that people do not want to spend ages unlocking rapids. I gotta admit to getting my tinfoil hat out too, since you can buy speed upgrades for rl cash.

redlink1979

Other:

It's irrelevant to me if the lag on Cyro persists...

DocFrost72

Switch rapids with vigor

haelene wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I respect the argument that others like rapids, but consider this.

Without rapids, you get there later.

Without vigor, you don't get there at all. You die.

Combat > convenience, to me.

I see your point - but only if you're a stam character.

Assuming half the characters in eso are stam and half are mag - vigor is potentially useful to 50% of all characters.

Rapids is potentially useful to 100% of characters.

That's why I don't disparage the other side of this argument; it's a valid concern. I just happen to fall into the mindset that 50% unable to do something is more detrimental 100% doing it slower. As i have a stake in this, it weighs more heavily on me as a (primarily) stamina player.

Integral1900

Switch rapids with vigor

Make the change, please!

No more grinding battlegrounds for the only decent stamina heal in the game!

Not only yes... HELL YES😇🤩

haelene

Keep it as it is now

DocFrost72 wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I respect the argument that others like rapids, but consider this.

Without rapids, you get there later.

Without vigor, you don't get there at all. You die.

Combat > convenience, to me.

I see your point - but only if you're a stam character.

Assuming half the characters in eso are stam and half are mag - vigor is potentially useful to 50% of all characters.

Rapids is potentially useful to 100% of characters.

That's why I don't disparage the other side of this argument; it's a valid concern. I just happen to fall into the mindset that 50% unable to do something is more detrimental 100% doing it slower. As i have a stake in this, it weighs more heavily on me as a (primarily) stamina player.

I totally agree that vigor should be easier to get. Frankly, I don't think a skill like that should be tied to PvP at all and should be included in the class skills just like mag healing. That said - it's still not a sensible change for the reason I stated above. We can get stam characters what they need without hurting the overall experience for everyone (lots of stam players included).

Caligamy_ESO

Keep it as it is now

If you ever needed a more awful experience in the horse simulator that is the vast mostly empty Cyrodiil, then try riding across it on a newish character without rapid maneuver. I'd rather watch grass grow in Minecraft, and I hated that game.

Also think about how many stamina characters have had to partake in PVP to earn their vigor for their PVE builds, and then essentially hit the delete key on all of those players who will never have to spend the time in Cyrodiil again. That bit sounds nice in theory but its also just erasing a big chunk of players from the pvp environments.

Strider__Roshin

Switch rapids with vigor

Stamina players need a heal more than a magic player needs to get to the next quest giver. It's a good change, and it's pretty selfish that players are against it.

Guyle

Keep it as it is now

I've got about 10 characters I use, many of them will be losing rapids with this change. Is it difficult to unlock vigor now? No, not really, and I only ever really use it on 3 toons. Every single one of them uses rapids though, and it makes a huge difference when hunting down skyshards at a lower level. Mounts are grotesquely slow in the beginning, and rapids makes it more palatable. Is it that big of a deal if its changed, no not really, except that toons I wouldnt have bothered to get vigor on, I now need to lvl up to get rapids on. Basically any content outside of dungeons and trials, rapids is practically a necessity for QoL.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

Switch rapids with vigor

...

haelene wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I respect the argument that others like rapids, but consider this.

Without rapids, you get there later.

Without vigor, you don't get there at all. You die.

Combat > convenience, to me.

I see your point - but only if you're a stam character.

Assuming half the characters in eso are stam and half are mag - vigor is potentially useful to 50% of all characters.

Rapids is potentially useful to 100% of characters.

In PvP most players are stamina-based.

It's just better there.