idk wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Guilds should be there for high investment / high reward. Not for literally all trading and selling in the game.

Both systems, AH and guild trade, cannot coexist - where would the costumers for guilds come from, if they can just use the AH, it would kill the system ZOS has designed for this game. If there would be an AH I would most likely as well use it and give trading a pass - and an activity I enjoyed would be lost - and immersion gone with it as well - an AH is modern stuff, whereas the guild system fits more into the game's theme. It wouldn't hurt me financially, because I have already enough and nothing really to spend it on anyway. But I would see it as a loss for the game and it's theme in a whole.

Both systems can co-exist and have in games past.

I come from SWG which as far as I'm concerned is still the standard for MMO's. They had a thriving economy that had both a public trader AND skill based player merchants. You didn't require a guild, but to have any sort of economic success it required skill investment from your character for the various Mercantile skills.

There were limits to what could be put on the public trader, so public traders were for low level and low cost inventory while the high quality big money inventory would be kept on the player's personal merchants at their shops they had spread through the world.

People would often use their goods on public traders to advertise their own shops, so if someone wanted higher quality mats or gear, they could get that information.

Thinking it can't be done is such a narrow way of looking. Fact is, mainstream MMO's have become very formulaic since the success of WoW, and devs and even the player base have forgotten about game design for MMO's that was VERY successful before WoW.

iirc, there were restrictions for both traders. So it is not a valid example for both guild traders and a central hub.

Why isn't it?

The restrictions were on players who didn't want to invest into their economic skills. They were limited to the public traders.

Those who did invest in their economic skills got access to numerous personal traders, on their own self selected plot of land, and could sell whatever they wanted for as much as they wanted.

That is the epitome of a co-existence.

In ESO, someone like me would be able to toss some random loot on a public trader to make some extra gold while those who are investing in the economic side of the game will have bigger gains and rewards through the guild trader system

The value to crafting is insignificant in ESO. It is a complete joke Food is cheap, Armor, weapons, and jewelry crafted sets are far from BiS. The big value to leveling up crafting skill lines is upgrading armor and weapons, and changing traits. That cannot be sold to other players.

So again, the comparison is not very comparable.

You forgot furnishings.

But, you're not alone, almost everyone does.

Even if the subject is specifically mentioned, they studiously ignore it, in fact...

VoxAdActa wrote: »

So after going from complete noCP restart newb to making 100k/week through guild traders in less than 30 days, my conclusion is this:

The half-dozen people here complaining about the guild trading system are not complaining about problems they've experienced in the guild-trading world. They're complaining about problems they anticipate having in the guild-trading world, but have actively refused to participate in.

The way everyone talks about TTC, about the wonders of an AH, the impossibility of joining a guild, the expected market value of all the great (yet CONSISTENTLY unnamed) stuff they'd sell if only there was an AH, the Shadowy Guild Illuminati Cabal, etc., is baffling. It's like they're complaining about a stereotype they heard about rather than anything they've actually dealt with (and it's like that, most probably, because it's exactly that).

It's like me saying I refuse to go to a hospital, and listing as my reasons for not going to a hospital a bunch of problems I saw in a zombie movie, but I've never actually been to a real hospital. But insisting that "hospitals are overrun with zombies and they don't have any security measures!" Meanwhile, doctors, nurses, and real hospital patrons are telling me "There are no zombies, dude," but I'm continuing to complain about the zombie problem in hospitals that MUST be fixed before I'll even come within a block of a hospital.

On another note, one positive effect an AH would have on me personally (and likely many other people like me) is that I'll never again have to ask "Should I sell 50 of these water hyacinths and wipe myself out for a bit, or should I just sell 40 and keep a few back in case I want to make a potion?". Because I'll just be keeping all of them, since they'll be worthless pretty quick on an AH. I can just grab some more skill points and craft all my stuff myself.

Hope you are not including me, in that?

Because I have, specifically, outlined an issue I have within the guild trader environment I have been using for years, now.

What I am seeing is a lot of people (mostly non-crafters) who have only just started using the guild trader system.

So have barely scratched the surface of it and only know how happy they are to have offloaded a bunch of (dropped) junk they have been hoarding for a few months and have probably, unknowingly, sold to resellers (for half the going price).

When we look at the general design of a guild, we see a tiered system with incentives coming with increasing numbers of members in a guild.

Tier 0 - guild channel, ability to advertise the guild
Tier 1 - guild bank
Tier 2 - guild shop
Tier 3 - ability to bid on an NPC trader

So when @knightblaster says, the ability to trade casually isn't meant to be, this has something to it purely from how the guild tiers are structured - local trade inside the guild and trade to the public are last and required the effort to grow the guild to a certain amount of members first, but once achieved it requires as well to maintain member count to not loose the benefits of the acquired tier again. Furthermore the amount and ability of members to contribute to the guild leads to a tiered system on top of it, when it comes to NPC traders - that there is a bidding system in place puts higher trader "quality" in the hands of guilds, which have more and/or more contributing members.

One can argue about if this is a good approach to guilds or not - but it seems to me clearly designed to encourage players to work together for a common goal and one of these goals is to be able to sell to the public or if not, at least among each other, or if not that, to have at least a shared guild bank - but even the latter requires minimal effort to get at least a few members.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

knightblaster wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I have 11.5 years of experience with a regional market system in EVE - so I'm certainly not new to how regional market systems work.

I've played EVE on and off since 2004. EVE is nothing like ESO's economy. The differences are many, and they are all salient. To take a few of the bigger ones ....

It is when you talk about it in the same context we have been in this thread. And that is a focus on a decentralized market. We are not comparing Eve economy *** for tat to ESO.

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

It is broken. It wouldn't diminish guilds roles. Guilds are about far more than trading and in guilds I'm in the ones that aren't charging fees for players they have to work on raffles and it creates extra stress on the guild owners to raise that money for traders when they could just be focusing on the content and socialising.

Actually ESO lacks a real need of guilds outside of trading and crafting stations. Everything else can be as easily done( and often more efficiently) on a discord server. ESO guilds are in need of more purpose not less.

Also the "decentralized market" well like I've stated it doesn't have to be one central one. But why do they need to be controlled by guilds? If you argue that we need different trade locations for a good economy that doesn't mean that they need guild control for that. The fact that trade guildies are not willing to budge even on the concept of having multiple areas to trade but allowing anyone to use them shows this isn't about the economy at all but about their own profit margin.

So, in other words, the (guild only) selling is almost certainly the bait to get us all to make/run/join/stay in guilds, for forced socialisation purposes.

In order to get us to keep playing.

As opposed to them having strong feelings about gating new/casual players out of selling, on some ridiculous point of principle.

The separate trader/venue idea is for another (far more innocent) reason entirely, but I have already talked about that before, on other threads.

Tigerseye wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

When we look at the general design of a guild, we see a tiered system with incentives coming with increasing numbers of members in a guild.

Tier 0 - guild channel, ability to advertise the guild
Tier 1 - guild bank
Tier 2 - guild shop
Tier 3 - ability to bid on an NPC trader

So when @knightblaster says, the ability to trade casually isn't meant to be, this has something to it purely from how the guild tiers are structured - local trade inside the guild and trade to the public are last and required the effort to grow the guild to a certain amount of members first, but once achieved it requires as well to maintain member count to not loose the benefits of the acquired tier again. Furthermore the amount and ability of members to contribute to the guild leads to a tiered system on top of it, when it comes to NPC traders - that there is a bidding system in place puts higher trader "quality" in the hands of guilds, which have more and/or more contributing members.

One can argue about if this is a good approach to guilds or not - but it seems to me clearly designed to encourage players to work together for a common goal and one of these goals is to be able to sell to the public or if not, at least among each other, or if not that, to have at least a shared guild bank - but even the latter requires minimal effort to get at least a few members.

So, it's not necessarily an intentional thing to try to gate all selling out of the reach of new/casual/unguilded players, at all.

...and in fact, it is far more likely to be to try to incentivise them to join a guild, by making selling impossible without it.

...and also, to incentivise people to make and keep running guilds, for the same reason.

As taking part in social activities (like being a member of a guild), apparently, makes you less likely to leave an MMO.

It's all about psychology, at the end of the day.

This is actually what I think as well - and that this system is terrible for newbies didn't come to their mind or they assumed that most level up quickly and would be joining a guild anyway. I guess it surprised them eventually, how many aren't that much interested into group aspects and rather prefer to be on their own and just occasionally together with someone else.

If nothing else would improve, I would at least asked for a period of grace for newbies, where they get better prices from general and other merchants for their stuff - which is anyway mostly junk and wouldn't sell on the market.

Tigerseye wrote: »

So, in other words, the (guild only) selling is almost certainly the bait to get us all to make/run/join/stay in guilds, for forced socialisation purposes.

In order to get us to keep playing.

As opposed to them having strong feelings about gating new/casual players out of selling, on some ridiculous point of principle.

Not really.

To the first point, no one requires anyone in a trading guild to socialize. That part is certainly a choice. However, one of the reasons Zos gave for a guild trading design was a social aspect of trading.

To the second point, it would stand to reason people play a game because they enjoy playing it/enjoy the people they play it with. The trading system is very much secondary to most though it may be a little more important to those who are more into crafting than into actual gameplay.

To the last, it would be good for new players to join a guild where they can not only trade but gain advice and learn more about the game. I recall when I first started this game over six years ago and it was not that big of an issue.

Eifleber wrote: »

Well, one thing's for certain: when I stop playing ESO I'm definitely not going to miss the trading system.

Personally I don't mind local shops. It's realistic in a semi medieval world.
But firstly: in a semi-medieval world you will know where to get your stuff. For Kajit furniture and furnishing recipes there's a few villages with master furniture crafters in Elseweyr. Food and drinks you buy at the local taverns, markets or bakeries.
Let people sell their stuff at appropriate locations (or let it pop up there) so buyers know where to find it. Much more realistic and immersive.
Vendors realistically don' t sell everything. Middle ages didn' t have supermarkets and wallmarts.

Secondly. What is also miss in ESO is crafting at request. I think this is how the bulk of equipment and furniture sales were actually done in a medieval world. Even though a lot of people have found very rare recipes, hardly anyone sells the stuff. In my main guild most people never sell anything, for example (we have no trader).
There should be a system where you can order stuff: you put on an order and price and deadline and someone can pick it up and deliver it.

Thirdly: a REAL auction house. People can put stuff for sale by bids with a deadline. Perhaps only for expensive stuff with a starting bid over 10k. Highest bidder after a day, 3 days, a week, month gets it (seller decides). AH takes a 10% fee.

Now with those changes I think I' d like the local shops idea lot more.
*

Auctions are problematic - EVE has this option, one can put up an offer as well as an auction instead of an instant buy - one can set a price at which the offer can be instantly bought though as well. Problem with this kind of auction is, that first offers are extremely low and not much is happening until a few hours before the auction ends .- and in this phase the auction is heavily gamed to drive the price up - often by other characters of the seller even. In the end this is a system which is rarely used for an item with fixed properties - but more for bundle offers - which are missing in ESO anyway, like a table and 4 chairs of the same design. I find it hard to shop for furniture, because I might need 4 or 6 chairs of the same kind with a matching table - but until I'd get such a set from the market, I might no longer be interested in it, because it took too long.

And seller decides in an auction is a no-go - then it can be gamed even more and failures of cheating won't happen.

Crafting on demand is happening in guilds - basically against materials and eventually a tip.

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

knightblaster wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I have 11.5 years of experience with a regional market system in EVE - so I'm certainly not new to how regional market systems work.

I've played EVE on and off since 2004. EVE is nothing like ESO's economy. The differences are many, and they are all salient. To take a few of the bigger ones ....

It is when you talk about it in the same context we have been in this thread. And that is a focus on a decentralized market. We are not comparing Eve economy *** for tat to ESO.

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

It is broken. It wouldn't diminish guilds roles. Guilds are about far more than trading and in guilds I'm in the ones that aren't charging fees for players they have to work on raffles and it creates extra stress on the guild owners to raise that money for traders when they could just be focusing on the content and socialising.

Actually ESO lacks a real need of guilds outside of trading and crafting stations. Everything else can be as easily done( and often more efficiently) on a discord server. ESO guilds are in need of more purpose not less.

And where would people find these discords if not for the guilds? How would you know who is online? It has plenty of guilds outside trading. I'm sure trade guildies would like us to believe we need them for guilds to exist but plenty of guilds exist without them. In fact it would help smaller guilds a lot since they wouldn't have people worrying about does this guild have a trader.

Its really not that difficult. Does anyone know how to use the internet for research??? For your second question... have you ever even used discord? I ll give you an example:

#announcements
@ everyone
We are going to war! Two weeks to prepare. Get your house in order.

Ill convert to ESO speak:

#announcements
@ everyone
Reminder: Sunspire at 2100 ESO time. Need core and alts.

No one said guilds exist only because of traders. I said guilds in ESO have no real NEED TO EXIST outside of trade and a good deal on attuned crafting tables and the second one is a hard argument. Guilds in ESO lack function or a usefulness. And for putting groups together for instances or pvp, discord is far superior than a guild. Also i dont have to be on the PC to get pinged if something is going on in the game.

Guilds need to be more developed and have more purpose in ESO.

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

knightblaster wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I have 11.5 years of experience with a regional market system in EVE - so I'm certainly not new to how regional market systems work.

I've played EVE on and off since 2004. EVE is nothing like ESO's economy. The differences are many, and they are all salient. To take a few of the bigger ones ....

It is when you talk about it in the same context we have been in this thread. And that is a focus on a decentralized market. We are not comparing Eve economy *** for tat to ESO.

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

It is broken. It wouldn't diminish guilds roles. Guilds are about far more than trading and in guilds I'm in the ones that aren't charging fees for players they have to work on raffles and it creates extra stress on the guild owners to raise that money for traders when they could just be focusing on the content and socialising.

Actually ESO lacks a real need of guilds outside of trading and crafting stations. Everything else can be as easily done( and often more efficiently) on a discord server. ESO guilds are in need of more purpose not less.

Also the "decentralized market" well like I've stated it doesn't have to be one central one. But why do they need to be controlled by guilds? If you argue that we need different trade locations for a good economy that doesn't mean that they need guild control for that. The fact that trade guildies are not willing to budge even on the concept of having multiple areas to trade but allowing anyone to use them shows this isn't about the economy at all but about their own profit margin.

Because that is going to go one of two ways and both of them are sideways.

Scenario #1: Anyone can list on any trader. 100 item limit globally.

So people are going first migrate to trade hubs and then likely to a single trade hub. Players will, by default, create a central market trying to get the most and sell the fastest which will actually destroy the market when they realize competing with all of ESO at the same time is not profitable. End result = player created central AH.


Scenario #2: People bid on traders like guilds bid on traders now.

You can bid on X amount of traders a week However you may only have one trader. Setting item limit to 100 with 500 people per trader. The 500 highest bids get to use that trader. So this eliminates collective bargaining. The richest traders that turn over the most goods are going to get the best spots. Casual traders are going to be stuck in low traffic areas. That might be good for someone that just want to toss up a couple of items. But there are many casual and upcoming traders in high traffic trade spots because of the guild they are in. We can call them the middle class.They would lose the most in this because they dont do a high enough volume to make a profit at big traders but they will hardly make anything at low traffic traders.

Then we have a thread every week about how " This new trade system is set up to benefit the rich traders! The system we have now is the best system for this game. It needs some improvements, but that is it.

newtinmpls wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

What I am seeing is a lot of people (mostly non-crafters) who have only just started using the guild trader system.

So have barely scratched the surface of it and only know how happy they are to have offloaded a bunch of (dropped) junk they have been hoarding for a few months and have probably, unknowingly, sold to resellers (for half the going price).

So...I'm not seeing how this is a problem...?

There are many different aspects to ESO, and trading is one of them. I didn't really participate in it for a long time; still only two of the guilds I am in are "trading guilds"; the other guilds have other focuses, and for a long time "trading" was not on my radar.

Yeah, I could keep "better track" of things. But I do as much as is fun.

It's not that it's a problem, as such.

We almost all started out like that.

There is nothing wrong with being new to something.

We have all been new to things and will be again.

It is that these people, who are new to trading, obviously, don't yet understand all the pros and cons of the system.

Simply because they haven't had a chance to experience it properly, yet.

Which, again, is fine.

Except, if many of them are then not interested in listening to, or accepting, the problems of people with more experience of the system, when they talk about some of the genuine issues with it and what could be done about it.

Even though those people have no axe to grind, because they don't own a trading guild, or have any other reason to lie.

If the newer traders, here, said it was all good for them, so far, but then accepted that it might not be all good for everyone else, in every situation; then, again, everything would be fine.

Rather than just assuming the person telling them something is wrong, or missing from the system, must be wrong, or lying, or something.

Many will find out, soon enough, for themselves, anyway.

Especially if they find themselves sitting through hundreds of loading screens, to try to find large quantities of certain (often, harder to find) materials.

Many of which will already be sold, by the time they get there, as TTC listings are not in real time.

Then they will know.

As opposed to judging from a position of not crafting at all, yet, or of only having sold random things they made with materials they gathered themselves.

Crafting is hard enough to level and many recipes hard/expensive enough to acquire, in this game, without adding a frustrating, prohibitively time-consuming, broken-up, retail type experience to the whole procedure, when it comes to attempting to acquire certain raw materials.

idk wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

So, in other words, the (guild only) selling is almost certainly the bait to get us all to make/run/join/stay in guilds, for forced socialisation purposes.

In order to get us to keep playing.

As opposed to them having strong feelings about gating new/casual players out of selling, on some ridiculous point of principle.

Not really.

To the first point, no one requires anyone in a trading guild to socialize. That part is certainly a choice. However, one of the reasons Zos gave for a guild trading design was a social aspect of trading.

To the second point, it would stand to reason people play a game because they enjoy playing it/enjoy the people they play it with. The trading system is very much secondary to most though it may be a little more important to those who are more into crafting than into actual gameplay.

To the last, it would be good for new players to join a guild where they can not only trade but gain advice and learn more about the game. I recall when I first started this game over six years ago and it was not that big of an issue.

While some of that may be true, too, you either don't understand exactly what I am saying here, or you are pretending not to.

I have said all I am going to say on the matter.

As I think it's perfectly clear exactly what I meant...