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ESO direly need a central auction house ...
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Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Anotherone773 wrote: »Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »
It is when you talk about it in the same context we have been in this thread. And that is a focus on a decentralized market. We are not comparing Eve economy *** for tat to ESO.knightblaster wrote: »
I have 11.5 years of experience with a regional market system in EVE - so I'm certainly not new to how regional market systems work.
I've played EVE on and off since 2004. EVE is nothing like ESO's economy. The differences are many, and they are all salient. To take a few of the bigger ones ....
Actually ESO lacks a real need of guilds outside of trading and crafting stations. Everything else can be as easily done( and often more efficiently) on a discord server. ESO guilds are in need of more purpose not less.ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »
It is broken. It wouldn't diminish guilds roles. Guilds are about far more than trading and in guilds I'm in the ones that aren't charging fees for players they have to work on raffles and it creates extra stress on the guild owners to raise that money for traders when they could just be focusing on the content and socialising.
This is purely opinion and completely against the decades + evidence we see in other MMOs with Guilds that do not act as gatekeepers to an MMOs player economy. Take that nonsense elsewhere.
Please enlighten me on why i need to join a guild other than for trading and access to a large amount of crafting stations, i dont have to purchase? What other NEED does a guild fill for me that i cant get somewhere better.
Some of them are (genuinely) social, which brings us back to the psychology of gaming and forced socialisation = player retention.0 -
ZaroktheImmortal✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anotherone773 wrote: »ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »
It is when you talk about it in the same context we have been in this thread. And that is a focus on a decentralized market. We are not comparing Eve economy *** for tat to ESO.knightblaster wrote: »
I have 11.5 years of experience with a regional market system in EVE - so I'm certainly not new to how regional market systems work.
I've played EVE on and off since 2004. EVE is nothing like ESO's economy. The differences are many, and they are all salient. To take a few of the bigger ones ....
Actually ESO lacks a real need of guilds outside of trading and crafting stations. Everything else can be as easily done( and often more efficiently) on a discord server. ESO guilds are in need of more purpose not less.ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »
It is broken. It wouldn't diminish guilds roles. Guilds are about far more than trading and in guilds I'm in the ones that aren't charging fees for players they have to work on raffles and it creates extra stress on the guild owners to raise that money for traders when they could just be focusing on the content and socialising.
And where would people find these discords if not for the guilds? How would you know who is online? It has plenty of guilds outside trading. I'm sure trade guildies would like us to believe we need them for guilds to exist but plenty of guilds exist without them. In fact it would help smaller guilds a lot since they wouldn't have people worrying about does this guild have a trader.
Its really not that difficult. Does anyone know how to use the internet for research??? For your second question... have you ever even used discord? I ll give you an example:
#announcements
@ everyone
We are going to war! Two weeks to prepare. Get your house in order.
Ill convert to ESO speak:
#announcements
@ everyone
Reminder: Sunspire at 2100 ESO time. Need core and alts.
No one said guilds exist only because of traders. I said guilds in ESO have no real NEED TO EXIST outside of trade and a good deal on attuned crafting tables and the second one is a hard argument. Guilds in ESO lack function or a usefulness. And for putting groups together for instances or pvp, discord is far superior than a guild. Also i dont have to be on the PC to get pinged if something is going on in the game.
Guilds need to be more developed and have more purpose in ESO.ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »
It is when you talk about it in the same context we have been in this thread. And that is a focus on a decentralized market. We are not comparing Eve economy *** for tat to ESO.knightblaster wrote: »
I have 11.5 years of experience with a regional market system in EVE - so I'm certainly not new to how regional market systems work.
I've played EVE on and off since 2004. EVE is nothing like ESO's economy. The differences are many, and they are all salient. To take a few of the bigger ones ....
Actually ESO lacks a real need of guilds outside of trading and crafting stations. Everything else can be as easily done( and often more efficiently) on a discord server. ESO guilds are in need of more purpose not less.ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »
It is broken. It wouldn't diminish guilds roles. Guilds are about far more than trading and in guilds I'm in the ones that aren't charging fees for players they have to work on raffles and it creates extra stress on the guild owners to raise that money for traders when they could just be focusing on the content and socialising.
Also the "decentralized market" well like I've stated it doesn't have to be one central one. But why do they need to be controlled by guilds? If you argue that we need different trade locations for a good economy that doesn't mean that they need guild control for that. The fact that trade guildies are not willing to budge even on the concept of having multiple areas to trade but allowing anyone to use them shows this isn't about the economy at all but about their own profit margin.
Because that is going to go one of two ways and both of them are sideways.
Scenario #1: Anyone can list on any trader. 100 item limit globally.
So people are going first migrate to trade hubs and then likely to a single trade hub. Players will, by default, create a central market trying to get the most and sell the fastest which will actually destroy the market when they realize competing with all of ESO at the same time is not profitable. End result = player created central AH.
Scenario #2: People bid on traders like guilds bid on traders now.
You can bid on X amount of traders a week However you may only have one trader. Setting item limit to 100 with 500 people per trader. The 500 highest bids get to use that trader. So this eliminates collective bargaining. The richest traders that turn over the most goods are going to get the best spots. Casual traders are going to be stuck in low traffic areas. That might be good for someone that just want to toss up a couple of items. But there are many casual and upcoming traders in high traffic trade spots because of the guild they are in. We can call them the middle class.They would lose the most in this because they dont do a high enough volume to make a profit at big traders but they will hardly make anything at low traffic traders.
Then we have a thread every week about how " This new trade system is set up to benefit the rich traders! The system we have now is the best system for this game. It needs some improvements, but that is it.
Or you set it to a certain amount of items per location. Or you could have it randomize where it gets sold or however many other solutions. I love how trade guildies like to make it as if their way is the only way it could work. No compromise no inbetween no middle ground just they have all or nothing. And how they talk as if we need their guilds in charge of trading or everything will fail. The fact that they're not even willing to see anything else than guilds having full control over traders shows it's all about their profit margin. They're scared if anyone can trade they'll have more competition.3 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Anotherone773 wrote: »Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »
It is when you talk about it in the same context we have been in this thread. And that is a focus on a decentralized market. We are not comparing Eve economy *** for tat to ESO.knightblaster wrote: »
I have 11.5 years of experience with a regional market system in EVE - so I'm certainly not new to how regional market systems work.
I've played EVE on and off since 2004. EVE is nothing like ESO's economy. The differences are many, and they are all salient. To take a few of the bigger ones ....
Actually ESO lacks a real need of guilds outside of trading and crafting stations. Everything else can be as easily done( and often more efficiently) on a discord server. ESO guilds are in need of more purpose not less.ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »
It is broken. It wouldn't diminish guilds roles. Guilds are about far more than trading and in guilds I'm in the ones that aren't charging fees for players they have to work on raffles and it creates extra stress on the guild owners to raise that money for traders when they could just be focusing on the content and socialising.
This is purely opinion and completely against the decades + evidence we see in other MMOs with Guilds that do not act as gatekeepers to an MMOs player economy. Take that nonsense elsewhere.
Please enlighten me on why i need to join a guild other than for trading and access to a large amount of crafting stations, i dont have to purchase? What other NEED does a guild fill for me that i cant get somewhere better.
Some of them are (genuinely) social, which brings us back to the psychology of gaming and forced socialisation = player retention.
But i dont need to join one to be social. I am more social with people outside of my guilds than people in. Which brings me to my second point. Im in trade guilds that ive never talked in or even read the guild chat. In fact i only have guild chat turned on in one guild. So i am not forced to socialize at all. People who say that you are forced to socialize in trade guilds, dont actually spend any time as a member of a trade guild. Ive never been forced to socialized, felt pressured to socialize, or needed to socialize in any of the couple of dozen of trade guilds ive been in, in the last few years.
The guild is merely a vessel for me to sell my goods. Its actually not much different from an AH except its not global and its dependent on a player to keep it running.3 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »
It is when you talk about it in the same context we have been in this thread. And that is a focus on a decentralized market. We are not comparing Eve economy *** for tat to ESO.knightblaster wrote: »
I have 11.5 years of experience with a regional market system in EVE - so I'm certainly not new to how regional market systems work.
I've played EVE on and off since 2004. EVE is nothing like ESO's economy. The differences are many, and they are all salient. To take a few of the bigger ones ....
Actually ESO lacks a real need of guilds outside of trading and crafting stations. Everything else can be as easily done( and often more efficiently) on a discord server. ESO guilds are in need of more purpose not less.ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »
It is broken. It wouldn't diminish guilds roles. Guilds are about far more than trading and in guilds I'm in the ones that aren't charging fees for players they have to work on raffles and it creates extra stress on the guild owners to raise that money for traders when they could just be focusing on the content and socialising.
And where would people find these discords if not for the guilds? How would you know who is online? It has plenty of guilds outside trading. I'm sure trade guildies would like us to believe we need them for guilds to exist but plenty of guilds exist without them. In fact it would help smaller guilds a lot since they wouldn't have people worrying about does this guild have a trader.
Its really not that difficult. Does anyone know how to use the internet for research??? For your second question... have you ever even used discord? I ll give you an example:
#announcements
@ everyone
We are going to war! Two weeks to prepare. Get your house in order.
Ill convert to ESO speak:
#announcements
@ everyone
Reminder: Sunspire at 2100 ESO time. Need core and alts.
No one said guilds exist only because of traders. I said guilds in ESO have no real NEED TO EXIST outside of trade and a good deal on attuned crafting tables and the second one is a hard argument. Guilds in ESO lack function or a usefulness. And for putting groups together for instances or pvp, discord is far superior than a guild. Also i dont have to be on the PC to get pinged if something is going on in the game.
Guilds need to be more developed and have more purpose in ESO.ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »
It is when you talk about it in the same context we have been in this thread. And that is a focus on a decentralized market. We are not comparing Eve economy *** for tat to ESO.knightblaster wrote: »
I have 11.5 years of experience with a regional market system in EVE - so I'm certainly not new to how regional market systems work.
I've played EVE on and off since 2004. EVE is nothing like ESO's economy. The differences are many, and they are all salient. To take a few of the bigger ones ....
Actually ESO lacks a real need of guilds outside of trading and crafting stations. Everything else can be as easily done( and often more efficiently) on a discord server. ESO guilds are in need of more purpose not less.ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »
It is broken. It wouldn't diminish guilds roles. Guilds are about far more than trading and in guilds I'm in the ones that aren't charging fees for players they have to work on raffles and it creates extra stress on the guild owners to raise that money for traders when they could just be focusing on the content and socialising.
Also the "decentralized market" well like I've stated it doesn't have to be one central one. But why do they need to be controlled by guilds? If you argue that we need different trade locations for a good economy that doesn't mean that they need guild control for that. The fact that trade guildies are not willing to budge even on the concept of having multiple areas to trade but allowing anyone to use them shows this isn't about the economy at all but about their own profit margin.
Because that is going to go one of two ways and both of them are sideways.
Scenario #1: Anyone can list on any trader. 100 item limit globally.
So people are going first migrate to trade hubs and then likely to a single trade hub. Players will, by default, create a central market trying to get the most and sell the fastest which will actually destroy the market when they realize competing with all of ESO at the same time is not profitable. End result = player created central AH.
Scenario #2: People bid on traders like guilds bid on traders now.
You can bid on X amount of traders a week However you may only have one trader. Setting item limit to 100 with 500 people per trader. The 500 highest bids get to use that trader. So this eliminates collective bargaining. The richest traders that turn over the most goods are going to get the best spots. Casual traders are going to be stuck in low traffic areas. That might be good for someone that just want to toss up a couple of items. But there are many casual and upcoming traders in high traffic trade spots because of the guild they are in. We can call them the middle class.They would lose the most in this because they dont do a high enough volume to make a profit at big traders but they will hardly make anything at low traffic traders.
Then we have a thread every week about how " This new trade system is set up to benefit the rich traders! The system we have now is the best system for this game. It needs some improvements, but that is it.
Or you set it to a certain amount of items per location. Or you could have it randomize where it gets sold or however many other solutions. I love how trade guildies like to make it as if their way is the only way it could work. No compromise no inbetween no middle ground just they have all or nothing. And how they talk as if we need their guilds in charge of trading or everything will fail. The fact that they're not even willing to see anything else than guilds having full control over traders shows it's all about their profit margin. They're scared if anyone can trade they'll have more competition.
More competition in a decentralized system is good not bad - the more competition there is, the more traffic will be in that location and the faster stuff sells there. High volume, low margins - EVE example Jita-4-4 caldari navy or the established private hubs in Perimeter. This creates something similar to a global trade hub, but it is local with the highest competition - but it just works in EVE, because there are buy orders in place and everyone can just load off his stuff, gets instantly paid and then buys whatever he wants. With local hubs in more remote locations it is the other way round, low volume, high margin due to less competition but as well less traffic. Competition itself is not to fear, it is beneficial for high volume throughput.Edited by Lysette on July 2, 2020 7:59AM0 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Anotherone773 wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »
It is when you talk about it in the same context we have been in this thread. And that is a focus on a decentralized market. We are not comparing Eve economy *** for tat to ESO.knightblaster wrote: »
I have 11.5 years of experience with a regional market system in EVE - so I'm certainly not new to how regional market systems work.
I've played EVE on and off since 2004. EVE is nothing like ESO's economy. The differences are many, and they are all salient. To take a few of the bigger ones ....
Actually ESO lacks a real need of guilds outside of trading and crafting stations. Everything else can be as easily done( and often more efficiently) on a discord server. ESO guilds are in need of more purpose not less.ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »
It is broken. It wouldn't diminish guilds roles. Guilds are about far more than trading and in guilds I'm in the ones that aren't charging fees for players they have to work on raffles and it creates extra stress on the guild owners to raise that money for traders when they could just be focusing on the content and socialising.
This is purely opinion and completely against the decades + evidence we see in other MMOs with Guilds that do not act as gatekeepers to an MMOs player economy. Take that nonsense elsewhere.
Please enlighten me on why i need to join a guild other than for trading and access to a large amount of crafting stations, i dont have to purchase? What other NEED does a guild fill for me that i cant get somewhere better.
Some of them are (genuinely) social, which brings us back to the psychology of gaming and forced socialisation = player retention.
But i dont need to join one to be social. I am more social with people outside of my guilds than people in..
Yes, I probably am too.
I choose to PUG most of the time, as opposed to doing guild runs and that is the only reason I have a large friendlist.
But, I think we are pretty unusual.
Going by what I have seen, on several games forums now, most gamers (or serious gamers, anyway) are pretty territorial and very much have the "Us and Them" mentality.
Their attitude to "randoms" vs their guildmates was pretty shocking, frankly.
You would try to point out that "randoms"were just people you hadn't met yet, but they very much viewed them as inferior others.
Bizarre, but there you go...
Guild systems (intentionally) nurture that Us and Them, gang-type, mentality.
Which is partly why I object to them being so mandatory, here and quite frankly, am dubious about their existence, in general.
I don't think it's particularly healthy, even though I like most of the people in the guilds I am in and often enjoy reading/participating in guild chat.
2 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This "us and them" is based on trust issues - you might know your guild mates, you might have worked with them for long and you know what kind of person they are - mostly - and this creates trust and strengthens the "we" or "us" feeling. Random others are a threat - we have an organ in the brain, the amygdala, responsible for this first reaction. This response happens actually with everyone, even with friends, but is instantly counteracted by the conscious parts of our brain with friends, not so with strangers - and this is basically what creates this "us and them" with "them" being an emotional stress inducer.0 -
knightblaster✭✭✭.
That is a valid argument when it comes to accessibility. Help me understand where you see a monopoly - is it in your opinion about how certain guilds are managed, which would restrict accessibility to the market on purpose? Are their trusts monopolizing major trade hubs or what is it, what makes you think of a monopolistic system?
It's a monopoly in the sense that it is 100% guild controlled. A non-guilded player cannot participate. I am not claiming it is technically an economic monopoly as defined by academic economists, nor does it need to be in order to meaningfully exclude players, which is what a monopoly does by cutting down on competition. Certainly having a limited number of trading slots in any location cuts down on competition. Again, EVE has nothing like this whatsoever.
5 -
ZOS_LunaradminGreetings! We've removed some posts from this thread for violating our rules on baiting.
We understand that everyone has their own opinions and frustrations they want to express, but we also want the forums to be a constructive platform for ESO and its community. Feel free to continue discussions of said topics, just be mindful of the community rules/ToS when doing so, as well as doing so in a constructive manner.The Elder Scrolls Online - ZeniMax Online Studios
Forum Rules | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Home Page | Help Site0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So, in other words, the (guild only) selling is almost certainly the bait to get us all to make/run/join/stay in guilds, for forced socialisation purposes.
In order to get us to keep playing.
As opposed to them having strong feelings about gating new/casual players out of selling, on some ridiculous point of principle.
Not really.
To the first point, no one requires anyone in a trading guild to socialize. That part is certainly a choice. However, one of the reasons Zos gave for a guild trading design was a social aspect of trading.
To the second point, it would stand to reason people play a game because they enjoy playing it/enjoy the people they play it with. The trading system is very much secondary to most though it may be a little more important to those who are more into crafting than into actual gameplay.
To the last, it would be good for new players to join a guild where they can not only trade but gain advice and learn more about the game. I recall when I first started this game over six years ago and it was not that big of an issue.
While some of that may be true, too, you either don't understand exactly what I am saying here, or you are pretending not to.
I have said all I am going to say on the matter.
As I think it's perfectly clear exactly what I meant...
I could only address the points as written.
Well, anyhow, have a good day.4 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Anotherone773 wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »
It is when you talk about it in the same context we have been in this thread. And that is a focus on a decentralized market. We are not comparing Eve economy *** for tat to ESO.knightblaster wrote: »
I have 11.5 years of experience with a regional market system in EVE - so I'm certainly not new to how regional market systems work.
I've played EVE on and off since 2004. EVE is nothing like ESO's economy. The differences are many, and they are all salient. To take a few of the bigger ones ....
Actually ESO lacks a real need of guilds outside of trading and crafting stations. Everything else can be as easily done( and often more efficiently) on a discord server. ESO guilds are in need of more purpose not less.ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »
It is broken. It wouldn't diminish guilds roles. Guilds are about far more than trading and in guilds I'm in the ones that aren't charging fees for players they have to work on raffles and it creates extra stress on the guild owners to raise that money for traders when they could just be focusing on the content and socialising.
This is purely opinion and completely against the decades + evidence we see in other MMOs with Guilds that do not act as gatekeepers to an MMOs player economy. Take that nonsense elsewhere.
Please enlighten me on why i need to join a guild other than for trading and access to a large amount of crafting stations, i dont have to purchase? What other NEED does a guild fill for me that i cant get somewhere better.
Some of them are (genuinely) social, which brings us back to the psychology of gaming and forced socialisation = player retention.
But i dont need to join one to be social. I am more social with people outside of my guilds than people in..
Yes, I probably am too.
I choose to PUG most of the time, as opposed to doing guild runs and that is the only reason I have a large friendlist.
But, I think we are pretty unusual.
Going by what I have seen, on several games forums now, most gamers (or serious gamers, anyway) are pretty territorial and very much have the "Us and Them" mentality.
Their attitude to "randoms" vs their guildmates was pretty shocking, frankly.
You would try to point out that "randoms"were just people you hadn't met yet, but they very much viewed them as inferior others.
Bizarre, but there you go...
Guild systems (intentionally) nurture that Us and Them, gang-type, mentality.
Which is partly why I object to them being so mandatory, here and quite frankly, am dubious about their existence, in general.
I don't think it's particularly healthy, even though I like most of the people in the guilds I am in and often enjoy reading/participating in guild chat.
You know one of my favorite things that i did in other games of this type was running groups of newbies/pugs through hard/endgame content. I had a blast because even though i ran the content so many times before, it felt new and challenging every time. The challenge was getting them through the content and teaching them how to beat each mechanic. We would spend hours sometimes and not even make it half way. Sometimes my group would completely turnover before we make it through. Everyone had an absolute blast. Not toxic attitudes, no newbie shaming, no supremacy from the more experienced runners. It was great.
Cant do that here. People are far to toxic and precious in ESO about their elitism in group content. And i dont have the time to devote to running the groups or a guild for the groups.
But unlike you i dont think guilds are all bad. They are the most useless to me in ESO out of all the games i have played and remember being in a guild. Outside of trade, there isnt anything i can get in a guild that i can get outside of it with less headaches and no obligations.
Part of why guilds are so bad here is the toxic player base. Honestly its like a reunion of Kens and Karens. Another part is the the solo nature of so much content in this game. Its one of the most anti social MMOs ive played i think. Finally guilds just lack any real function outside of a place to peddle me wares. People have been asking for more functions for guilds by ZOS doesnt seem to interested in making guilds more useful to people
0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ok, let's look at it from the other side of the coin - if there would be an AH, what would be the purpose of those NPC traders standing around in the game world then?- Where would trading guilds get members, if everyone can access the market by other means? And if they cannot get members, there is no need for guild traders either. So we would end up having all those NPC traders in the game world, who lost their purpose.
And if NPC traders would just be access points to an AH, which would be global, then they make no sense either - because all would have the same offers. Why would one want to go to a city then? There is no need to do that anymore, if any NPC trader in the world would be an access point or even worse, if the AH would be accessible on meta level outside the game world. Cities would no longer be somewhat vibrant, but become lifeless. So global AH access isn't really desireable.
And if we wouldn't go towards a global AH, but make them NPC trader "regional", where would this be any better than the current guild system? The only difference would be accessibility without having to join a guild - but this comes at the price of having destroyed market game play and it wouldn't be any more convenient seen from a buyers perspective than it is now.
So, what I would want to know from those wanting an AH is how exactly they want it to function - and what to do with the current NPC traders, how to keep cities vibrant locations and of course where the benefit of all of these exact changes would be in the end. What justifies the effort put into changing the system and what the effects on the game world would be.
This is a serious bunch of questions - I'm really interested in getting to know, how much thought those wanting an AH have actually put into the implementation side of it and and the effects it has on the current ESO specific game world.2 -
AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
Guilds should be there for high investment / high reward. Not for literally all trading and selling in the game.
Both systems, AH and guild trade, cannot coexist - where would the costumers for guilds come from, if they can just use the AH, it would kill the system ZOS has designed for this game. If there would be an AH I would most likely as well use it and give trading a pass - and an activity I enjoyed would be lost - and immersion gone with it as well - an AH is modern stuff, whereas the guild system fits more into the game's theme. It wouldn't hurt me financially, because I have already enough and nothing really to spend it on anyway. But I would see it as a loss for the game and it's theme in a whole.
They could coexist if one system (the trader system) was for one set of things only, like crafted items and the other system (the auction house system, or a warehouse system) was for non-crafted things, like mats (and perhaps, also, random drops).
This is precisely why I suggested a hybrid system, but let's just pretend no one ever suggested that, right?
By the way, Lysette, 2 million gold is practically nothing in this game.
My latest house, alone, probably cost 10x that to decorate (if you include all the mats and plans).
You may not have anything to spend gold on, but a lot of us do and the current system, although not 100% bad by any means, isn't working for us as well as it should do.
...and if that is "not [your] problem", I don't see why anyone should consider your loss of "immersion" (after 5 minutes of trading) theirs, quite frankly.
I'm not sure how this would be feasible, if you go with the notion that the warehouse would have the cheap stuff and the traders would sell the expensive stuff, then there is no clear cut division, because the game doesn't set prices, players do.
If you say the "warehouse" would sell mats and the trades would sell non-mats, that also doesn't split it in a cheap/easy vs. expensive/rare split.
Raw materials are more expensive than refined mats. Some refined mats sell at traders for less than vendor price already, because they are by-products of people looking for improvers.
So I would really be curious to have you elaborate on what specifically you'd want listed on the "warehouse" as opposed to the "retail traders", other than "the item I want in large quantities"
Now, you seem to be after something very specific (Culanda Laquer would be my first guess). Have you considered putting out a call in your guilds that you will buy all of your required material at a set price and have people C.o.D. it to you?The Moot Councillor3 -
ZaroktheImmortal✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ok, let's look at it from the other side of the coin - if there would be an AH, what would be the purpose of those NPC traders standing around in the game world then?- Where would trading guilds get members, if everyone can access the market by other means? And if they cannot get members, there is no need for guild traders either. So we would end up having all those NPC traders in the game world, who lost their purpose.
And if NPC traders would just be access points to an AH, which would be global, then they make no sense either - because all would have the same offers. Why would one want to go to a city then? There is no need to do that anymore, if any NPC trader in the world would be an access point or even worse, if the AH would be accessible on meta level outside the game world. Cities would no longer be somewhat vibrant, but become lifeless. So global AH access isn't really desireable.
And if we wouldn't go towards a global AH, but make them NPC trader "regional", where would this be any better than the current guild system? The only difference would be accessibility without having to join a guild - but this comes at the price of having destroyed market game play and it wouldn't be any more convenient seen from a buyers perspective than it is now.
So, what I would want to know from those wanting an AH is how exactly they want it to function - and what to do with the current NPC traders, how to keep cities vibrant locations and of course where the benefit of all of these exact changes would be in the end. What justifies the effort put into changing the system and what the effects on the game world would be.
This is a serious bunch of questions - I'm really interested in getting to know, how much thought those wanting an AH have actually put into the implementation side of it and and the effects it has on the current ESO specific game world.
Those npc traders could be used as traders for all or replaced. Are we worried about putting fictional characters out of a job? Also trade guilds could focus on teaching people the best ways to go about trading what sells for most what pricings will sell etc instead of just 'join us and you get to trade stuff'
No it wouldn't. Also this isn't an argument for guild traders by this same argument could use each one as an individual selling point as in it only sells there. And again are we arguing to not put npcs out of jobs?
Edited by ZaroktheImmortal on July 3, 2020 1:06AM2 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »Ok, let's look at it from the other side of the coin - if there would be an AH, what would be the purpose of those NPC traders standing around in the game world then?- Where would trading guilds get members, if everyone can access the market by other means? And if they cannot get members, there is no need for guild traders either. So we would end up having all those NPC traders in the game world, who lost their purpose.
And if NPC traders would just be access points to an AH, which would be global, then they make no sense either - because all would have the same offers. Why would one want to go to a city then? There is no need to do that anymore, if any NPC trader in the world would be an access point or even worse, if the AH would be accessible on meta level outside the game world. Cities would no longer be somewhat vibrant, but become lifeless. So global AH access isn't really desireable.
And if we wouldn't go towards a global AH, but make them NPC trader "regional", where would this be any better than the current guild system? The only difference would be accessibility without having to join a guild - but this comes at the price of having destroyed market game play and it wouldn't be any more convenient seen from a buyers perspective than it is now.
So, what I would want to know from those wanting an AH is how exactly they want it to function - and what to do with the current NPC traders, how to keep cities vibrant locations and of course where the benefit of all of these exact changes would be in the end. What justifies the effort put into changing the system and what the effects on the game world would be.
This is a serious bunch of questions - I'm really interested in getting to know, how much thought those wanting an AH have actually put into the implementation side of it and and the effects it has on the current ESO specific game world.
Those npc traders could be used as traders for all or replaced. Are we worried about putting fictional characters out of a job? Also trade guilds could focus on teaching people the best ways to go about trading what sells for most what pricings will sell etc instead of just 'join us and you get to trade stuff'
No it wouldn't. Also this isn't an argument for guild traders by this same argument could use each one as an individual selling point as in it only sells there. And again are we arguing to not put npcs out of jobs?
This is not a description how you would solve those points I put forward to be solved - like how to make cities vibrant places, if there is no reason to go there anymore. And what is with the empty space left, when you remove those NPC traders? How is the AH accessed - is it gobal or local? Then what would a trading guild teach, if in an AH the best offer always wins?- And why would they want to do that, who would pay them for their effort?- Do you expect them to teach how to play the market in an asocial way? Because otherwise there is nothing to teach, best offer always wins.
Thank you for trying though, but this solves nothing, because no working solutions were offered.Edited by Lysette on July 3, 2020 2:35AM4 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »Ok, let's look at it from the other side of the coin - if there would be an AH, what would be the purpose of those NPC traders standing around in the game world then?- Where would trading guilds get members, if everyone can access the market by other means? And if they cannot get members, there is no need for guild traders either. So we would end up having all those NPC traders in the game world, who lost their purpose.
And if NPC traders would just be access points to an AH, which would be global, then they make no sense either - because all would have the same offers. Why would one want to go to a city then? There is no need to do that anymore, if any NPC trader in the world would be an access point or even worse, if the AH would be accessible on meta level outside the game world. Cities would no longer be somewhat vibrant, but become lifeless. So global AH access isn't really desireable.
And if we wouldn't go towards a global AH, but make them NPC trader "regional", where would this be any better than the current guild system? The only difference would be accessibility without having to join a guild - but this comes at the price of having destroyed market game play and it wouldn't be any more convenient seen from a buyers perspective than it is now.
So, what I would want to know from those wanting an AH is how exactly they want it to function - and what to do with the current NPC traders, how to keep cities vibrant locations and of course where the benefit of all of these exact changes would be in the end. What justifies the effort put into changing the system and what the effects on the game world would be.
This is a serious bunch of questions - I'm really interested in getting to know, how much thought those wanting an AH have actually put into the implementation side of it and and the effects it has on the current ESO specific game world.
Those npc traders could be used as traders for all or replaced. Are we worried about putting fictional characters out of a job? Also trade guilds could focus on teaching people the best ways to go about trading what sells for most what pricings will sell etc instead of just 'join us and you get to trade stuff'
No it wouldn't. Also this isn't an argument for guild traders by this same argument could use each one as an individual selling point as in it only sells there. And again are we arguing to not put npcs out of jobs?
This is not a description how you would solve those points I put forward to be solved - like how to make cities vibrant places, if there is no reason to go there anymore. And what is with the empty space left, when you remove those NPC traders? How is the AH accessed - is it gobal or local? Then what would a trading guild teach, if in an AH the best offer always wins?- And why would they want to do that, who would pay them for their effort?- Do you expect them to teach how to play the market in an asocial way? Because otherwise there is nothing to teach, best offer always wins.
Thank you for trying though, but this solves nothing, because no working solutions were offered.
Also, this entire discussion is like getting a flat tire and wanting to trade in the car because it has a flat, instead of just fixing the flat. We dont need a central AH. What we need is an updated guild trader model that works for mostly everyone and keeps the economy vibrant and healthy.
For example there should be more traders, but the base price for a trader should be increased. And different traders should be priced differently. Capital city traders should be more expensive base price while that lone peddler in the middle of nowhere is quite cheap.4 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I want to see, if anyone of those wanting an AH has thought about the consequences of it - beside just the personal advantage of not having to join a guild to load off stuff on the AH and eventually getting some money for it.
Or if they have even considered the fact that total competition will effect them negatively much more than it would effect AH traders - because their stuff will just sell if it is among the best offers - and to keep it there would require very frequent care (cancel+relist) or it will just return to their mailbox. The AH should as well not be abused as additional storage, where items are just "stored" with an extreme ask price for them until they'll return to the mailbox - so where are their solutions?Edited by Lysette on July 3, 2020 8:27AM5 -
Eifleber✭✭✭✭✭
Consequences?I want to see, if anyone of those wanting an AH has thought about the consequences of it - beside just the personal advantage of not having to join a guild to load off stuff on the AH and eventually getting some money for it.
What do you mean? Games that have a central AH don' t seem to have any problems?
At least, not when I played. It's just very easy and requires very little time so I have more time to do PvE content.
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Playing since dec 2019 | PC EU1 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
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Consequences?I want to see, if anyone of those wanting an AH has thought about the consequences of it - beside just the personal advantage of not having to join a guild to load off stuff on the AH and eventually getting some money for it.
What do you mean? Games that have a central AH don' t seem to have any problems?
At least, not when I played. It's just very easy and requires very little time so I have more time to do PvE content.
Saving time? How?
Games with a central AH are just a race to the bottom for prices of common items. No one goes; “Oh this person has a higher price, but I like their name I will buy from them”.
People will sell things incredibly low and then other people will undercut it be a gold, and the cycle will just repeat. And remember gold sellers won’t care how low a price is.
You will put a furniture plan up for 10 gold, another will put it up for 9. And a third for 8. Are you going to repost it for 7? Do you think you will “win” with that? Was that a good use for your time?
And how hard is it to post things now? It takes zero time. Go to a banker in any town and post things in any of your guilds. It’s super easy how are you saving time on a universal ah, by just be default posting everything for 1 gold?
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Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
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Consequences?I want to see, if anyone of those wanting an AH has thought about the consequences of it - beside just the personal advantage of not having to join a guild to load off stuff on the AH and eventually getting some money for it.
What do you mean? Games that have a central AH don' t seem to have any problems?
At least, not when I played. It's just very easy and requires very little time so I have more time to do PvE content.
Please read post #462 - I described the general change to an AH and broad up a few questions related to certain problems coming with a change to an AH.
I'm looking for ESO specific answers to those questions from people, who want an AH - and please with specific answers related to the situation in ESO and how you think it should be implemented. And look at it as well from the perspective of those, who's game play would be destroyed or disrupted by it, try to find a solution for them as well, otherwise the call for an AH would be incredibly selfish.Edited by Lysette on July 3, 2020 11:48AM6 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
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And how hard is it to post things now? It takes zero time. Go to a banker in any town and post things in any of your guilds. It’s super easy how are you saving time on a universal ah, by just be default posting everything for 1 gold?
I find it incredibly convenient, that I have access to my guilds at any NPC banker and not just to post offers there, but as well buy from any of my guild shops there as if I would be carrying those shops around with me. I can compare the current offers and recent sales from there and decide where my items would have a better chance to sell quickly at a good price.
Edited by Lysette on July 3, 2020 12:16PM5 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Consequences?I want to see, if anyone of those wanting an AH has thought about the consequences of it - beside just the personal advantage of not having to join a guild to load off stuff on the AH and eventually getting some money for it.
What do you mean? Games that have a central AH don' t seem to have any problems?
At least, not when I played. It's just very easy and requires very little time so I have more time to do PvE content.
I can tell you dont spend much time actually trading in games with an AH. Just a casual AH visitor hoping to find the item you need or to post some loot for a bit of extra coin even if you could have made more coin by killing a couple of mobs .3 -
Nova Sky✭✭✭✭✭
Consequences?I want to see, if anyone of those wanting an AH has thought about the consequences of it - beside just the personal advantage of not having to join a guild to load off stuff on the AH and eventually getting some money for it.
What do you mean? Games that have a central AH don' t seem to have any problems?
At least, not when I played. It's just very easy and requires very little time so I have more time to do PvE content.
Saving time? How?
Games with a central AH are just a race to the bottom for prices of common items. No one goes; “Oh this person has a higher price, but I like their name I will buy from them”.
People will sell things incredibly low and then other people will undercut it be a gold, and the cycle will just repeat. And remember gold sellers won’t care how low a price is.
You will put a furniture plan up for 10 gold, another will put it up for 9. And a third for 8. Are you going to repost it for 7? Do you think you will “win” with that? Was that a good use for your time?
And how hard is it to post things now? It takes zero time. Go to a banker in any town and post things in any of your guilds. It’s super easy how are you saving time on a universal ah, by just be default posting everything for 1 gold?
That "race to the bottom" already occurs in major trading guilds in ESO. I see it every time I go on a shopping spree — Joe Public lists an item at 50 gold, and Jane Public pops up listing the same item at 45 gold.
Between that and botters, prices are already pretty decent with the current economic system in place."Wheresoever you go, go with all of your heart."0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
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Consequences?I want to see, if anyone of those wanting an AH has thought about the consequences of it - beside just the personal advantage of not having to join a guild to load off stuff on the AH and eventually getting some money for it.
What do you mean? Games that have a central AH don' t seem to have any problems?
At least, not when I played. It's just very easy and requires very little time so I have more time to do PvE content.
Most of those games play on tiny servers. I do not think any game plays on servers this large. I think even GW2 still has small servers, they are just interconnected which is very different. WoW and F14 use very tiny servers compared to ESO. So the comparison is apples to oranges much like a google search is not an appropriate comparison.
A central trading system creates larger queries by design which creates a larger load. We already see the load large queries such as a current trader search and especially interacting with the guild bank. While these are among the larger queries we currently have in-game they are much smaller queries than what a central would create.
We already know there are some things we have requested that Zos is not added to the game for the specific reason the related query would be large and add to the server load. We have seen how Zos added inventory space via chests instead of making our bags and banks larger which is for the same reasons.
As such, it stands to reason Zos would not even consider a central trading system until and unless they get server performance under control and even then might not want to risk it. This is not arguing about my personal preference of one system over another but merely stating facts surrounding a solid reason why a central system would not be good for the game as a whole.5 -
Wolf_Eye✭✭✭✭✭
✭To the second point, it would stand to reason people play a game because they enjoy playing it/enjoy the people they play it with. The trading system is very much secondary to most though it may be a little more important to those who are more into crafting than into actual gameplay.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the rest of your statement, but I did want to point out something.
A lot of people want a lot of different things in this game. For some, it's high end gear. For others, it's buying crown items from the crown exchange.
For myself? It's housing, and outfitting my houses with nice furniture.
A lot of these things (especially my houses) requires gold. The easiest and fastest way to make money? Through trading with other players.
So trading is very important to me, but not because I'm interested in crafting or because I enjoy the trading itself necessarily, but because it's a means to an end; it gets me what I actually want.
Gold gets you just about everything in this game. So I feel it's a bit incorrect to say that only crafters would ever be interested in gaining gold as a primary interest.
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Eifleber✭✭✭✭✭
Why should I care about that?Eifleber wrote:Games that have a central AH don' t seem to have any problems?
At least, not when I played. It's just very easy and requires very little time so I have more time to do PvE content.
Saving time? How?
Games with a central AH are just a race to the bottom for prices of common items. No one goes; “Oh this person has a higher price, but I like their name I will buy from them”.
People will sell things incredibly low and then other people will undercut it be a gold, and the cycle will just repeat. And remember gold sellers won’t care how low a price is.
You will put a furniture plan up for 10 gold, another will put it up for 9. And a third for 8. Are you going to repost it for 7? Do you think you will “win” with that? Was that a good use for your time?
And how hard is it to post things now? It takes zero time. Go to a banker in any town and post things in any of your guilds. It’s super easy how are you saving time on a universal ah, by just be default posting everything for 1 gold?
It surprises me that people can not stop arguing form a sellers point of view.
I guess it's very hard to imagine how ESO trading works form the pov of someone that just wants to buy something.
In case of an AH it takes me 1 minute to buy whatever I want and be done with it.
If it's not for sale I know immediately and I don't have to search 30 provinces.
*
Edited by Eifleber on July 3, 2020 10:09PM❆
Playing since dec 2019 | PC EU4 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
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Because you being a buyer is irrelevant when all the sellers stop posting goods. There will be nothing for you to buy except some over priced end game stuff and a few trinkets that a newbie tried to put up that with either expire before no one wants them or gets hoovered up by someone who controls the market for that items that repost it for 10x more.Eifleber wrote:Games that have a central AH don' t seem to have any problems?
At least, not when I played. It's just very easy and requires very little time so I have more time to do PvE content.
Saving time? How?
Games with a central AH are just a race to the bottom for prices of common items. No one goes; “Oh this person has a higher price, but I like their name I will buy from them”.
People will sell things incredibly low and then other people will undercut it be a gold, and the cycle will just repeat. And remember gold sellers won’t care how low a price is.
You will put a furniture plan up for 10 gold, another will put it up for 9. And a third for 8. Are you going to repost it for 7? Do you think you will “win” with that? Was that a good use for your time?
And how hard is it to post things now? It takes zero time. Go to a banker in any town and post things in any of your guilds. It’s super easy how are you saving time on a universal ah, by just be default posting everything for 1 gold?
Why should I care about that?
It surprises me that people can not stop arguing form a sellers point of view.
I guess it's very hard to imagine how ESO trading works form the pov of someone that just wants to buy something.
In case of an AH it takes me 1 minute to buy whatever I want and be done with it.
If it's not for sale I know immediately and I don't have to search 30 provinces.
*
You want to be able to buy any unbound in game item like you currently can, then central AH needs to stay out of this game.
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Pink_Pixie✭✭✭A central system would be a lot easier, as the 197 guild traders that are out there, are eating up assets. Less assets would help the game run much more smoothly. Instead of the 197 or so guild traders 3-6 areas can be a central area for trade. As we know trade systems work in other games, which has been pointed out numerous times.
We don't play EVE, Guild wars, Star Wars, Star Trek and so on. So that holds little interest for me, and for the community no doubt. I have no interest in the trade systems of other games, as we play ESO. Currently, larger guilds have the cash to buy the traders, and good for them. However, asking people to join a trade guild only makes the game even slower. As stated, load screens are the bane for many players. As they would rather play, then spend an hour or so staring at load screens.
In short, less assets in game is a healthier system for all players. And no doubt not everyone will use a central area, as they might be more interested in playing the game. The argument has been the market will crash, due to bots and whatever other reason.
And in the end it won't, items might be cheaper for a while. But eventually they will stabilize as normal markets do over time. Supply and demand won't alter that much in the long run, if anything it'll improve as people like myself have a lot of materials to trade.
And yes, I know I can join a trade guild, but I don't really need more chat clutter in my chat box just to sell items.
(Added this here as there is two threads about trading on here.)2 -
VoxAdActa✭✭✭✭✭
It surprises me that people can not stop arguing form a sellers point of view.
I guess it's very hard to imagine how ESO trading works form the pov of someone that just wants to buy something.
Oh, ok, I see this argument now. An AH is cool, because you can buy a stack of cornflower for 100gp from a 24/7 botfarm; anyone who actually plays the game and wants to sell things is utterly irrelevant in your calculations.
So really, an even better system would just be NPC vendors who sell every item in the game at 1gp each, and remove the players-as-sellers component entirely.
Is that about right?7 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Pink_Pixie wrote: »
And in the end it won't, items might be cheaper for a while. But eventually they will stabilize as normal markets do over time. Supply and demand won't alter that much in the long run, if anything it'll improve as people like myself have a lot of materials to trade.
And yes, I know I can join a trade guild, but I don't really need more chat clutter in my chat box just to sell items.
You might have a lot of stuff to sell, but others do as well - and if you list your items at price X, those will in a very short amount of time be buried under prices X-1, X-2, X-3, X-4 and so on and you sell like nothing at all if you don't frequently care for being the best offer - so this is either extra work for you or your stuff will just sit there buried under loads of cheaper offers until your stuff will return to your mailbox.
This cancel+relist process has to be done currently as well (eventually), but it is a lot less frequently required, because there is limited local concurrence - offers don't get buried that quickly under a stack of cheaper offers. With an AH you have a brief moment of being on top of the list - there is your chance to sell something - a couple of minutes later your offer is buried under cheaper offers and your items might never again get a chance to be sold before they will return to your mailbox - or you care for cancel+relist - to gain another brief moment where your stuff is on top of the list - not fun to trade like this - might be convenient for buyers, but it isn't for sellers - and the dream of some, to easily sell their stuff will be just that - a dream.
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
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Why should I care about that?Eifleber wrote:Games that have a central AH don' t seem to have any problems?
At least, not when I played. It's just very easy and requires very little time so I have more time to do PvE content.
Saving time? How?
Games with a central AH are just a race to the bottom for prices of common items. No one goes; “Oh this person has a higher price, but I like their name I will buy from them”.
People will sell things incredibly low and then other people will undercut it be a gold, and the cycle will just repeat. And remember gold sellers won’t care how low a price is.
You will put a furniture plan up for 10 gold, another will put it up for 9. And a third for 8. Are you going to repost it for 7? Do you think you will “win” with that? Was that a good use for your time?
And how hard is it to post things now? It takes zero time. Go to a banker in any town and post things in any of your guilds. It’s super easy how are you saving time on a universal ah, by just be default posting everything for 1 gold?
It surprises me that people can not stop arguing form a sellers point of view.
I guess it's very hard to imagine how ESO trading works form the pov of someone that just wants to buy something.
In case of an AH it takes me 1 minute to buy whatever I want and be done with it.
If it's not for sale I know immediately and I don't have to search 30 provinces.
*
Actually, it is one of the reasons Zos themselves gave for why they chose the decentralized guild trading design. The central trading system is also ripe for bot manipulation.
But again, as I stated above, server performance is the most compelling reason that Zos should not consider a central system. Ofc, you can scroll up for that explanation.3
This discussion has been closed.