ESO direly need a central auction house ...

BlueRaven · July 2020

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I have no idea which of my 150 items I should try to sell? Which are likely to sell and which are just going to come back in 30 days? Which are in demand? No easy way to tell.

I can help with it - the guild UI has an activities panel - choose "sales" there and you see the actual trades happening in your guild, who has sold what to whom at which price. This way you can see what is actually selling in your location or guild and at which prices - those are not listed prices, but what customers where actually spending on these items - actual trades, not just wishful thinking - and based on that you can more easily decide which of your items to sell in that location or guild shop.

I was not aware of that, though it is quite lacking for this purpose. It does show me a list of things that were bought (I assume from the guild trader), but it is just a list and not a way to really see which items are worth selling and what price is good. It would need a lot more data for that.

The one I checked was for Thalmor Nation, a larger trading guild, but still too much noise to get much value from it.

How should I know if the latest pants drop I got is worth selling? I end up just deconstructing most for mats and I am probably losing out on gold I could make, though almost all my listing spots are full and thus I don't have room unless I cance; a listing, but I have no idea which one would be worth canceling for which item. That problem remains.

But this is always in business like that - you have to try and see if it sells, if you can't find it in the list of trades, where it was sold in the recent past. Just like I do with treasure maps currently, even I have selected the time to check this out really badly, with the event still being on. Still, I sell about a couple of them several times a day, so I will get rid of them, even they are just slowly selling in a whole compared to other items.

I could use those slots better for something else, but I really want to get rid of these treasure maps, because I'm not doing them anyway, and they are said to be good for those who are into the antiquity system - I sold them at a variety of prices (and strangely enough they sold better at higher prices) - in the end the mix will bring in my target average price - but I will take them off my listing before the weekend, because I need those spots for something what really sells quickly and like hot cakes - and eventually put those maps up in the coming week during normal weekdays again.

You need to experiment a bit - there is no way of knowing without trying, if something isn't in high demand and you can't find entries of this item in the guild activities sales panel.

Very difficult to experiment a lot with 150 max slots.

Unlimited listing which a central AH would provide would (and does in my own experience) allow much more flexibility here. I know that because I did exactly this in WoW. Playing the AH was an entire game for some, if not me. It was still much better than this system.

I would be shocked if you find 150 slots to be too limiting. Normally I have less then 30 items up for sale across all of my guild's traders. (I am a bit of a packrat.)

Also people in all of my guilds often ask for advice on how much they should post things for. Ask someone you know for advice. If you don't know anyone, ask an officer in your guild if they know a guildie that can help.

Also if it is a somewhat common item (like an ore) see if other people in your guild(s) have posted it. And just post it for a similar amount.

If you are still unsure, just "keep it in your pocket" until you find out exactly what it sells for.

Hotdog_23 · July 2020

Lysette wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I have no idea which of my 150 items I should try to sell? Which are likely to sell and which are just going to come back in 30 days? Which are in demand? No easy way to tell.

I can help with it - the guild UI has an activities panel - choose "sales" there and you see the actual trades happening in your guild, who has sold what to whom at which price. This way you can see what is actually selling in your location or guild and at which prices - those are not listed prices, but what customers where actually spending on these items - actual trades, not just wishful thinking - and based on that you can more easily decide which of your items to sell in that location or guild shop.

Looked at one of my guilds and it had 197 pages for the week to go thru. Very time consuming. Possible yes but not very practical. It would be nice it they would put some kind of search function here like when looking to buy something. Don't see it being to great of a deal to add since the function is already built into the base game.

Be safe and have fun

AlnilamE · July 2020

barney2525 wrote: »

ItsJustHashtag wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

aenax wrote: »

First and foremost ALL MMO have one,

I stopped reading at this point as this is the worst reason for anything to be added to ESO. Especially since ESO is superior to any major game on the market today. Those that actually play this game agree with that. Also, the fact the game has done well all these years without a central auction house does demonstrate it is not direly needed.

In the end, the trading system has been serving the game just fine and no one will be leaving ESO because of the trading system. So there is no real reason for Zos to abandon their preferred design.

I literally have friends who have left this game solely because of the lack of an auction house.

Imma say it, if your friends left the game and blamed not having an auction house then they never really wanted to be apart of this game anyway. Of all the reasons to leave ESO this is literally at the bottom of the list.

The Denial of the ability to make gold in this game, because you are Denied the right to sell your stuff, and you say this is bottom of the barrel?

You have a very weird opinion. Fortunately, that's all it is. Opinion.

IMHO

This is not BDO where you cannot trade directly to other players, nor is trading the only way to make gold in this game.

And casual players that are worried about trading guild commitments can always join social guilds that strive to keep a trader but don't stress if they don't get one every week. You can still sell to other guild members. I always start any shopping trips at the bank going through my guilds before I go elsewhere. And most times, I don't have to leave the bank at all.

Honestly, when I started playing, it did not even occur to me that trading was a thing. I eventually joined a guild, and then a trade guild, and then the traders came out. So ESO's trading system was my first exposure to trading, which is why I find Central Markets boring. In ESO, you feel like you are trading with other players. A central market might as well just be replaced with an NPC that buys and sells things at higher prices. Nobody would be able to tell the difference.

TheTwistedRune · July 2020

People who run guild traders do so to make money, and in my opinion they are being disingenuous to say otherwise. What else is trading for other than the acquisition of income? A GAH would reduce that income, and so they fight for the retention of the current system. Which is understandable from their point of view.

What I do take issue with is those trying to act like the current system is best for everybody. How can that be true given the divisive nature of this thread and the ongoing debate of the subject as a whole?

Both systems have good and bad points in equal measure, and a GAH has worked in many MMORPG's before, making it just as viable as ESO's current system.

knightblaster · July 2020

TheTwistedRune wrote: »

What I do take issue with is those trying to act like the current system is best for everybody. How can that be true given the divisive nature of this thread and the ongoing debate of the subject as a whole?

Both systems have good and bad points in equal measure, and a GAH has worked in many MMORPG's before, making it just as viable as ESO's current system.

It's largely an academic issue, really, because the server architecture almost certainly doesn't support a GAH, and it's very unlikely at this stage it would ever be overhauled to do so.

On the merits, the current system caters to the player trader community at the expense of the casual user of trading. That is, it caters to players who like to "play the economy", and not the player who simply dips in now and again to sell something that they may be able to get a bit more for than vendoring, or to browse items from time to time for upgrades, mats and the like. It's very inconvenient for the second kind of player to the extent that many of them simply opt out of the system altogether and don't bother with traders, buying or selling anything. However, it caters very strongly to the player trader community who likes to play the economy as a main gameplay style, and therefore this community provides a strong lobby in favor of the current system.

Again, though, the issue is largely academic at this point due to the technical server issue.

AlnilamE · July 2020

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

But every guild with I guess at least 50 members has a guild shop - even if they have no NPC trader, there is a shop where you could offer it to other members - and if you really want just a small amount of money for it, this would be the place to do it. Not every guild has an NPC trader and if you just want to sell sets of this kind, other members could make use of what you acquired this way - so the opportunity is there.

And I'm limiting my potential selling base to 50 - 500 people tops, instead of allowing it to be accessible to anyone who might be able to use that gear, greatly decreasing my odds of selling anything. I haven't even been able to sell Mother's Sorrow at below market rate because my audience is so limited. That's being in multiple guilds.

There is 0 valid reason for funneling ALL ability to sell in this game through guilds.

Guilds should be there for high investment / high reward. Not for literally all trading and selling in the game.

Your ability to sell is not limited by guilds. Your ability to list items is. You can trade directly with other players, and many players do just that. Again, this is not BDO, which has no direct trading between players and everything needs to go through their marketplace.

And even if you are only listing to a potential 500 players, at the end of the day, only one person will buy each thing.

I make sure the 30 slots I have in the guilds that don't usually have a trader are just as full as the slots in the trading guilds. And I get sales.

Tigerseye · July 2020

Lysette wrote: »

But every guild with I guess at least 50 members has a guild shop - even if they have no NPC trader, there is a shop where you could offer it to other members - and if you really want just a small amount of money for it, this would be the place to do it. Not every guild has an NPC trader and if you just want to sell sets of this kind, other members could make use of what you acquired this way - so the opportunity is there.

I have no intention to make a lot of money in this game - I have already more than I need, I'm just trading to sell what I got and to free my occupied bank space from stuff which is just choking it. If it sells, fine, if not I will just delete it. I told our guild master from the very start, that I have not that much to sell, because I'm playing casually - but it is more than I expected.

Then, with all due respect Lysette, why are you here endlessly fighting for a system (and for no changes to a system) you yourself admit you are a complete novice in regards to?

According to you, you have only just started to play the game, in this regard, you have only made a couple of millions from it and you regard any problems, even problems more seasoned players (who do use the trader system) inform you they are having with it, as "not [your] problem".

So, if that is the case and you are happy to admit that is the case, why exactly are you here, endlessly fielding every comment and suggestion that doesn't 100% support the current system, often in a faux knowledgeable fashion?

...and not even just comments and suggestions from new players, who may know even less than you confess you do about the subject, but also comments and suggestions from far more seasoned players, who have identified genuine concerns, after years of playing this aspect of the game (both here and in other MMOs)?

Nomadic_Atmoran · July 2020

TheTwistedRune wrote: »

People who run guild traders do so to make money, and in my opinion they are being disingenuous to say otherwise. What else is trading for other than the acquisition of income? A GAH would reduce that income, and so they fight for the retention of the current system. Which is understandable from their point of view.

What I do take issue with is those trying to act like the current system is best for everybody. How can that be true given the divisive nature of this thread and the ongoing debate of the subject as a whole?

Both systems have good and bad points in equal measure, and a GAH has worked in many MMORPG's before, making it just as viable as ESO's current system.

The thing is it wouldn't actually reduce the income for these individuals. There would be absolutely nothing preventing them from participating in the system in the manner they are now. The difference would be that everyone in the game could potentially be their competitors for the wares they want to list. As it stands right now the only serious competition top trade guilds have are the kiosks in the same location and those in other prime locations across Tamriel (mostly capital hubs and the new zones while they're still hot) . But the kiosk in a Thieves Den in Shadowfen? Nope. Just a location to go fish for future profit.

Tigerseye · July 2020

Lysette wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Guilds should be there for high investment / high reward. Not for literally all trading and selling in the game.

Both systems, AH and guild trade, cannot coexist - where would the costumers for guilds come from, if they can just use the AH, it would kill the system ZOS has designed for this game. If there would be an AH I would most likely as well use it and give trading a pass - and an activity I enjoyed would be lost - and immersion gone with it as well - an AH is modern stuff, whereas the guild system fits more into the game's theme. It wouldn't hurt me financially, because I have already enough and nothing really to spend it on anyway. But I would see it as a loss for the game and it's theme in a whole.

They could coexist if one system (the trader system) was for one set of things only, like crafted items and the other system (the auction house system, or a warehouse system) was for non-crafted things, like mats (and perhaps, also, random drops).

This is precisely why I suggested a hybrid system, but let's just pretend no one ever suggested that, right?

By the way, Lysette, 2 million gold is practically nothing in this game.

My latest house, alone, probably cost 10x that to decorate (if you include all the mats and plans).

You may not have anything to spend gold on, but a lot of us do and the current system, although not 100% bad by any means, isn't working for us as well as it should do.

...and if that is "not [your] problem", I don't see why anyone should consider your loss of "immersion" (after 5 minutes of trading) theirs, quite frankly.

jaws343 · July 2020

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Guilds should be there for high investment / high reward. Not for literally all trading and selling in the game.

Both systems, AH and guild trade, cannot coexist - where would the costumers for guilds come from, if they can just use the AH, it would kill the system ZOS has designed for this game. If there would be an AH I would most likely as well use it and give trading a pass - and an activity I enjoyed would be lost - and immersion gone with it as well - an AH is modern stuff, whereas the guild system fits more into the game's theme. It wouldn't hurt me financially, because I have already enough and nothing really to spend it on anyway. But I would see it as a loss for the game and it's theme in a whole.

Both systems can co-exist and have in games past.

I come from SWG which as far as I'm concerned is still the standard for MMO's. They had a thriving economy that had both a public trader AND skill based player merchants. You didn't require a guild, but to have any sort of economic success it required skill investment from your character for the various Mercantile skills.

There were limits to what could be put on the public trader, so public traders were for low level and low cost inventory while the high quality big money inventory would be kept on the player's personal merchants at their shops they had spread through the world.

People would often use their goods on public traders to advertise their own shops, so if someone wanted higher quality mats or gear, they could get that information.

Thinking it can't be done is such a narrow way of looking. Fact is, mainstream MMO's have become very formulaic since the success of WoW, and devs and even the player base have forgotten about game design for MMO's that was VERY successful before WoW.

iirc, there were restrictions for both traders. So it is not a valid example for both guild traders and a central hub.

Why isn't it?

The restrictions were on players who didn't want to invest into their economic skills. They were limited to the public traders.

Those who did invest in their economic skills got access to numerous personal traders, on their own self selected plot of land, and could sell whatever they wanted for as much as they wanted.

That is the epitome of a co-existence.

In ESO, someone like me would be able to toss some random loot on a public trader to make some extra gold while those who are investing in the economic side of the game will have bigger gains and rewards through the guild trader system

The value to crafting is insignificant in ESO. It is a complete joke Food is cheap, Armor, weapons, and jewelry crafted sets are far from BiS. The big value to leveling up crafting skill lines is upgrading armor and weapons, and changing traits. That cannot be sold to other players.

So again, the comparison is not very comparable.

It is comparable, but what you bring up points to the reason why the whole ESO economy is a joke to begin with.

I spoke only to the part of crafting. There are a lot of items to sell outside of crafted items. Materials for crafting is a big part of the market in ESO, just not the crafting itself. So not a joke in its entirety nor is it comparable.

Mats for crafting, for a crafting system that is wholly irrelevant.

People use crafted gear all of the time. A few of the meta PVP/PVE sets are crafted. And especially for players just starting out into end game content and haven't farmed the BIS sets.

The reason that crafting mats sell more than the actual gear is because the gear is better when made to order. If I am a crafter, I am never going to craft some random set piece, in a random trait, at a random level, in a random armor type, in a random style, and hope someone buys it. Because they wont. The only crafted pieces that sell are nirnhoned for researching.

Crafting is a bespoke service. People order crafted items from crafters with specifics that include level, armor type, set piece type, traits, etc. All of these things are impossible to do in any trading environment. If you think an Auction House will suddenly make your CP 100 invigorating Julianos heavy arms that you crafted sell, you are mistaken.

Which is why people sell the mats. It allows someone to determine all of the bespoke aspects of the gear they want without the seller needing to waste mats crafting random items and hoping they sell.

To another point that has been made by others. Your random mother's sorrow and necropotence set pieces are also not going to sell for any price worth listing in any trading environment. Unless they are purple jewelry or weapons, just deconstruct them and sell the mats. The actual gear pieces are incredibly easy to farm and barely sell because they aren't worth more than the vendor price. Same goes for most set pieces, outside of jewelry and weapons, you are just wasting slots and inventory to hold or sell the items. And you would still be wasting those trader spots in an Auction House and the sets would be worth even less. And still no one would buy them.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

jaws343 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Guilds should be there for high investment / high reward. Not for literally all trading and selling in the game.

Both systems, AH and guild trade, cannot coexist - where would the costumers for guilds come from, if they can just use the AH, it would kill the system ZOS has designed for this game. If there would be an AH I would most likely as well use it and give trading a pass - and an activity I enjoyed would be lost - and immersion gone with it as well - an AH is modern stuff, whereas the guild system fits more into the game's theme. It wouldn't hurt me financially, because I have already enough and nothing really to spend it on anyway. But I would see it as a loss for the game and it's theme in a whole.

Both systems can co-exist and have in games past.

I come from SWG which as far as I'm concerned is still the standard for MMO's. They had a thriving economy that had both a public trader AND skill based player merchants. You didn't require a guild, but to have any sort of economic success it required skill investment from your character for the various Mercantile skills.

There were limits to what could be put on the public trader, so public traders were for low level and low cost inventory while the high quality big money inventory would be kept on the player's personal merchants at their shops they had spread through the world.

People would often use their goods on public traders to advertise their own shops, so if someone wanted higher quality mats or gear, they could get that information.

Thinking it can't be done is such a narrow way of looking. Fact is, mainstream MMO's have become very formulaic since the success of WoW, and devs and even the player base have forgotten about game design for MMO's that was VERY successful before WoW.

iirc, there were restrictions for both traders. So it is not a valid example for both guild traders and a central hub.

Why isn't it?

The restrictions were on players who didn't want to invest into their economic skills. They were limited to the public traders.

Those who did invest in their economic skills got access to numerous personal traders, on their own self selected plot of land, and could sell whatever they wanted for as much as they wanted.

That is the epitome of a co-existence.

In ESO, someone like me would be able to toss some random loot on a public trader to make some extra gold while those who are investing in the economic side of the game will have bigger gains and rewards through the guild trader system

The value to crafting is insignificant in ESO. It is a complete joke Food is cheap, Armor, weapons, and jewelry crafted sets are far from BiS. The big value to leveling up crafting skill lines is upgrading armor and weapons, and changing traits. That cannot be sold to other players.

So again, the comparison is not very comparable.

It is comparable, but what you bring up points to the reason why the whole ESO economy is a joke to begin with.

I spoke only to the part of crafting. There are a lot of items to sell outside of crafted items. Materials for crafting is a big part of the market in ESO, just not the crafting itself. So not a joke in its entirety nor is it comparable.

Mats for crafting, for a crafting system that is wholly irrelevant.

People use crafted gear all of the time. A few of the meta PVP/PVE sets are crafted. And especially for players just starting out into end game content and haven't farmed the BIS sets.

The reason that crafting mats sell more than the actual gear is because the gear is better when made to order. If I am a crafter, I am never going to craft some random set piece, in a random trait, at a random level, in a random armor type, in a random style, and hope someone buys it. Because they wont. The only crafted pieces that sell are nirnhoned for researching.

Crafting is a bespoke service. People order crafted items from crafters with specifics that include level, armor type, set piece type, traits, etc. All of these things are impossible to do in any trading environment. If you think an Auction House will suddenly make your CP 100 invigorating Julianos heavy arms that you crafted sell, you are mistaken.

Which is why people sell the mats. It allows someone to determine all of the bespoke aspects of the gear they want without the seller needing to waste mats crafting random items and hoping they sell.

To another point that has been made by others. Your random mother's sorrow and necropotence set pieces are also not going to sell for any price worth listing in any trading environment. Unless they are purple jewelry or weapons, just deconstruct them and sell the mats. The actual gear pieces are incredibly easy to farm and barely sell because they aren't worth more than the vendor price. Same goes for most set pieces, outside of jewelry and weapons, you are just wasting slots and inventory to hold or sell the items. And you would still be wasting those trader spots in an Auction House and the sets would be worth even less. And still no one would buy them.

You have made my point about not needing a trade guild for my purposes for me.

Just let me put it on a public trader and get my 300-1500 gold and call it a day. Stop trying to funnel me through a guild trader system that is a waste of my time and a waste of time for the guild to host me.

Everyone benefits. You have literally sacrificed nothing by letting me get a few gold for my loot drops.

BlueRaven · July 2020

Tigerseye wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Guilds should be there for high investment / high reward. Not for literally all trading and selling in the game.

Both systems, AH and guild trade, cannot coexist - where would the costumers for guilds come from, if they can just use the AH, it would kill the system ZOS has designed for this game. If there would be an AH I would most likely as well use it and give trading a pass - and an activity I enjoyed would be lost - and immersion gone with it as well - an AH is modern stuff, whereas the guild system fits more into the game's theme. It wouldn't hurt me financially, because I have already enough and nothing really to spend it on anyway. But I would see it as a loss for the game and it's theme in a whole.

They could coexist if one system (the trader system) was for one set of things only, like crafted items and the other system (the auction house system) was for non-crafted things, like mats (and perhaps, also, random drops).

This is precisely why I suggested a hybrid system, but let's just pretend no one ever suggested that, right?

By the way, Lysette, 2 million gold is practically nothing in this game.

My latest house, alone, probably cost 10x that to decorate (if you include all the mats and plans).

You may not have anything to spend gold on, but a lot of us do and the current system, although not 100% bad by any means, isn't working for us as well as it should do.

...and if that is "not [your] problem", I don't see why anyone should consider your loss of "immersion" (after 5 minutes of trading) theirs, quite frankly.

I read your post several times and I still don’t understand your proposed infrastructure.

Anyway, it seems like a lot of work to change a system that is working fine. I would rather they (zos) put their effort elsewhere.

I still don’t understand why would zos want to diminish the role of guilds. And where the new gold sink will be now that guilds are not paying for traders.

idk · July 2020

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Guilds should be there for high investment / high reward. Not for literally all trading and selling in the game.

Both systems, AH and guild trade, cannot coexist - where would the costumers for guilds come from, if they can just use the AH, it would kill the system ZOS has designed for this game. If there would be an AH I would most likely as well use it and give trading a pass - and an activity I enjoyed would be lost - and immersion gone with it as well - an AH is modern stuff, whereas the guild system fits more into the game's theme. It wouldn't hurt me financially, because I have already enough and nothing really to spend it on anyway. But I would see it as a loss for the game and it's theme in a whole.

Both systems can co-exist and have in games past.

I come from SWG which as far as I'm concerned is still the standard for MMO's. They had a thriving economy that had both a public trader AND skill based player merchants. You didn't require a guild, but to have any sort of economic success it required skill investment from your character for the various Mercantile skills.

There were limits to what could be put on the public trader, so public traders were for low level and low cost inventory while the high quality big money inventory would be kept on the player's personal merchants at their shops they had spread through the world.

People would often use their goods on public traders to advertise their own shops, so if someone wanted higher quality mats or gear, they could get that information.

Thinking it can't be done is such a narrow way of looking. Fact is, mainstream MMO's have become very formulaic since the success of WoW, and devs and even the player base have forgotten about game design for MMO's that was VERY successful before WoW.

iirc, there were restrictions for both traders. So it is not a valid example for both guild traders and a central hub.

Why isn't it?

The restrictions were on players who didn't want to invest into their economic skills. They were limited to the public traders.

Those who did invest in their economic skills got access to numerous personal traders, on their own self selected plot of land, and could sell whatever they wanted for as much as they wanted.

That is the epitome of a co-existence.

In ESO, someone like me would be able to toss some random loot on a public trader to make some extra gold while those who are investing in the economic side of the game will have bigger gains and rewards through the guild trader system

The value to crafting is insignificant in ESO. It is a complete joke Food is cheap, Armor, weapons, and jewelry crafted sets are far from BiS. The big value to leveling up crafting skill lines is upgrading armor and weapons, and changing traits. That cannot be sold to other players.

So again, the comparison is not very comparable.

It is comparable, but what you bring up points to the reason why the whole ESO economy is a joke to begin with.

I spoke only to the part of crafting. There are a lot of items to sell outside of crafted items. Materials for crafting is a big part of the market in ESO, just not the crafting itself. So not a joke in its entirety nor is it comparable.

Mats for crafting, for a crafting system that is wholly irrelevant.

People use crafted gear all of the time. A few of the meta PVP/PVE sets are crafted. And especially for players just starting out into end game content and haven't farmed the BIS sets.

The reason that crafting mats sell more than the actual gear is because the gear is better when made to order. If I am a crafter, I am never going to craft some random set piece, in a random trait, at a random level, in a random armor type, in a random style, and hope someone buys it. Because they wont. The only crafted pieces that sell are nirnhoned for researching.

Crafting is a bespoke service. People order crafted items from crafters with specifics that include level, armor type, set piece type, traits, etc. All of these things are impossible to do in any trading environment. If you think an Auction House will suddenly make your CP 100 invigorating Julianos heavy arms that you crafted sell, you are mistaken.

Which is why people sell the mats. It allows someone to determine all of the bespoke aspects of the gear they want without the seller needing to waste mats crafting random items and hoping they sell.

To another point that has been made by others. Your random mother's sorrow and necropotence set pieces are also not going to sell for any price worth listing in any trading environment. Unless they are purple jewelry or weapons, just deconstruct them and sell the mats. The actual gear pieces are incredibly easy to farm and barely sell because they aren't worth more than the vendor price. Same goes for most set pieces, outside of jewelry and weapons, you are just wasting slots and inventory to hold or sell the items. And you would still be wasting those trader spots in an Auction House and the sets would be worth even less. And still no one would buy them.

You have made my point about not needing a trade guild for my purposes for me.

Just let me put it on a public trader and get my 300-1500 gold and call it a day. Stop trying to funnel me through a guild trader system that is a waste of my time and a waste of time for the guild to host me.

Everyone benefits. You have literally sacrificed nothing by letting me get a few gold for my loot drops.

It takes no more time to list an item on a guild trader than it does in games that have a central trader. Interact with the banker (which is available in most major cities), select the guild trader option, and list the item. It really is that simple. You can choose to list it for however much gold you want, so 300-1500 gold will work just fine.

jaws343 · July 2020

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Guilds should be there for high investment / high reward. Not for literally all trading and selling in the game.

Both systems, AH and guild trade, cannot coexist - where would the costumers for guilds come from, if they can just use the AH, it would kill the system ZOS has designed for this game. If there would be an AH I would most likely as well use it and give trading a pass - and an activity I enjoyed would be lost - and immersion gone with it as well - an AH is modern stuff, whereas the guild system fits more into the game's theme. It wouldn't hurt me financially, because I have already enough and nothing really to spend it on anyway. But I would see it as a loss for the game and it's theme in a whole.

Both systems can co-exist and have in games past.

I come from SWG which as far as I'm concerned is still the standard for MMO's. They had a thriving economy that had both a public trader AND skill based player merchants. You didn't require a guild, but to have any sort of economic success it required skill investment from your character for the various Mercantile skills.

There were limits to what could be put on the public trader, so public traders were for low level and low cost inventory while the high quality big money inventory would be kept on the player's personal merchants at their shops they had spread through the world.

People would often use their goods on public traders to advertise their own shops, so if someone wanted higher quality mats or gear, they could get that information.

Thinking it can't be done is such a narrow way of looking. Fact is, mainstream MMO's have become very formulaic since the success of WoW, and devs and even the player base have forgotten about game design for MMO's that was VERY successful before WoW.

iirc, there were restrictions for both traders. So it is not a valid example for both guild traders and a central hub.

Why isn't it?

The restrictions were on players who didn't want to invest into their economic skills. They were limited to the public traders.

Those who did invest in their economic skills got access to numerous personal traders, on their own self selected plot of land, and could sell whatever they wanted for as much as they wanted.

That is the epitome of a co-existence.

In ESO, someone like me would be able to toss some random loot on a public trader to make some extra gold while those who are investing in the economic side of the game will have bigger gains and rewards through the guild trader system

The value to crafting is insignificant in ESO. It is a complete joke Food is cheap, Armor, weapons, and jewelry crafted sets are far from BiS. The big value to leveling up crafting skill lines is upgrading armor and weapons, and changing traits. That cannot be sold to other players.

So again, the comparison is not very comparable.

It is comparable, but what you bring up points to the reason why the whole ESO economy is a joke to begin with.

I spoke only to the part of crafting. There are a lot of items to sell outside of crafted items. Materials for crafting is a big part of the market in ESO, just not the crafting itself. So not a joke in its entirety nor is it comparable.

Mats for crafting, for a crafting system that is wholly irrelevant.

People use crafted gear all of the time. A few of the meta PVP/PVE sets are crafted. And especially for players just starting out into end game content and haven't farmed the BIS sets.

The reason that crafting mats sell more than the actual gear is because the gear is better when made to order. If I am a crafter, I am never going to craft some random set piece, in a random trait, at a random level, in a random armor type, in a random style, and hope someone buys it. Because they wont. The only crafted pieces that sell are nirnhoned for researching.

Crafting is a bespoke service. People order crafted items from crafters with specifics that include level, armor type, set piece type, traits, etc. All of these things are impossible to do in any trading environment. If you think an Auction House will suddenly make your CP 100 invigorating Julianos heavy arms that you crafted sell, you are mistaken.

Which is why people sell the mats. It allows someone to determine all of the bespoke aspects of the gear they want without the seller needing to waste mats crafting random items and hoping they sell.

To another point that has been made by others. Your random mother's sorrow and necropotence set pieces are also not going to sell for any price worth listing in any trading environment. Unless they are purple jewelry or weapons, just deconstruct them and sell the mats. The actual gear pieces are incredibly easy to farm and barely sell because they aren't worth more than the vendor price. Same goes for most set pieces, outside of jewelry and weapons, you are just wasting slots and inventory to hold or sell the items. And you would still be wasting those trader spots in an Auction House and the sets would be worth even less. And still no one would buy them.

You have made my point about not needing a trade guild for my purposes for me.

Just let me put it on a public trader and get my 300-1500 gold and call it a day. Stop trying to funnel me through a guild trader system that is a waste of my time and a waste of time for the guild to host me.

Everyone benefits. You have literally sacrificed nothing by letting me get a few gold for my loot drops.

You can get a few gold at a vendor for your trash drops.

What the AH does do that impacts my gameplay is it lowers the cost of the items that players are actually buying until those prices are as low as trash prices. Essentially making them worthless. Your few crafted items that are wasting resources to even make shouldn't be valued over the set pieces that myself, and other traders, spent time to acquire, and time to learn their value, and time to invest in a trading system. Your refusal to participate in a system of the game doesn't warrant the upending of that system.

Tigerseye · July 2020

BlueRaven wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Guilds should be there for high investment / high reward. Not for literally all trading and selling in the game.

Both systems, AH and guild trade, cannot coexist - where would the costumers for guilds come from, if they can just use the AH, it would kill the system ZOS has designed for this game. If there would be an AH I would most likely as well use it and give trading a pass - and an activity I enjoyed would be lost - and immersion gone with it as well - an AH is modern stuff, whereas the guild system fits more into the game's theme. It wouldn't hurt me financially, because I have already enough and nothing really to spend it on anyway. But I would see it as a loss for the game and it's theme in a whole.

They could coexist if one system (the trader system) was for one set of things only, like crafted items and the other system (the auction house system) was for non-crafted things, like mats (and perhaps, also, random drops).

This is precisely why I suggested a hybrid system, but let's just pretend no one ever suggested that, right?

By the way, Lysette, 2 million gold is practically nothing in this game.

My latest house, alone, probably cost 10x that to decorate (if you include all the mats and plans).

You may not have anything to spend gold on, but a lot of us do and the current system, although not 100% bad by any means, isn't working for us as well as it should do.

...and if that is "not [your] problem", I don't see why anyone should consider your loss of "immersion" (after 5 minutes of trading) theirs, quite frankly.

I read your post several times and I still don’t understand your proposed infrastructure.

Anyway, it seems like a lot of work to change a system that is working fine. I would rather they (zos) put their effort elsewhere.

I still don’t understand why would zos want to diminish the role of guilds. And where the new gold sink will be now that guilds are not paying for traders.

How can you not understand the blatantly obvious?

Especially when it is the same kind of system we have in real life.

Wholesalers/suppliers/warehouses>retailers.

BlueRaven · July 2020

Tigerseye wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Guilds should be there for high investment / high reward. Not for literally all trading and selling in the game.

Both systems, AH and guild trade, cannot coexist - where would the costumers for guilds come from, if they can just use the AH, it would kill the system ZOS has designed for this game. If there would be an AH I would most likely as well use it and give trading a pass - and an activity I enjoyed would be lost - and immersion gone with it as well - an AH is modern stuff, whereas the guild system fits more into the game's theme. It wouldn't hurt me financially, because I have already enough and nothing really to spend it on anyway. But I would see it as a loss for the game and it's theme in a whole.

They could coexist if one system (the trader system) was for one set of things only, like crafted items and the other system (the auction house system) was for non-crafted things, like mats (and perhaps, also, random drops).

This is precisely why I suggested a hybrid system, but let's just pretend no one ever suggested that, right?

By the way, Lysette, 2 million gold is practically nothing in this game.

My latest house, alone, probably cost 10x that to decorate (if you include all the mats and plans).

You may not have anything to spend gold on, but a lot of us do and the current system, although not 100% bad by any means, isn't working for us as well as it should do.

...and if that is "not [your] problem", I don't see why anyone should consider your loss of "immersion" (after 5 minutes of trading) theirs, quite frankly.

I read your post several times and I still don’t understand your proposed infrastructure.

Anyway, it seems like a lot of work to change a system that is working fine. I would rather they (zos) put their effort elsewhere.

I still don’t understand why would zos want to diminish the role of guilds. And where the new gold sink will be now that guilds are not paying for traders.

How can you not understand the blatantly obvious?

Especially when it is the same kind of system we have in real life.

Wholesalers/suppliers/warehouses>retailers.

There are five super markets near me. Every week we compare how much each is selling fruit, meat, and other items.

And we debate if we want to go to the closer one that may be more expensive or if it’s worth it to travel to the farther one.

In the store we may see corn in one and wonder if another store sells it for a better price. Sometimes we are right, sometimes not.

That is how the system works in real life.

That is also how the ESO system works. And I like it. It feels unique and it feels RP friendly. I have no problems with it.

And I don’t think many people have issues with it either. It’s not like I see zone chat filled with complaints about the trading system. And here it’s like it’s the same five people complaining about it.

I am sorry you don’t like the system, but as far as I am concerned this is just another case of “you can’t please everyone”.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

jaws343 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Guilds should be there for high investment / high reward. Not for literally all trading and selling in the game.

Both systems, AH and guild trade, cannot coexist - where would the costumers for guilds come from, if they can just use the AH, it would kill the system ZOS has designed for this game. If there would be an AH I would most likely as well use it and give trading a pass - and an activity I enjoyed would be lost - and immersion gone with it as well - an AH is modern stuff, whereas the guild system fits more into the game's theme. It wouldn't hurt me financially, because I have already enough and nothing really to spend it on anyway. But I would see it as a loss for the game and it's theme in a whole.

Both systems can co-exist and have in games past.

I come from SWG which as far as I'm concerned is still the standard for MMO's. They had a thriving economy that had both a public trader AND skill based player merchants. You didn't require a guild, but to have any sort of economic success it required skill investment from your character for the various Mercantile skills.

There were limits to what could be put on the public trader, so public traders were for low level and low cost inventory while the high quality big money inventory would be kept on the player's personal merchants at their shops they had spread through the world.

People would often use their goods on public traders to advertise their own shops, so if someone wanted higher quality mats or gear, they could get that information.

Thinking it can't be done is such a narrow way of looking. Fact is, mainstream MMO's have become very formulaic since the success of WoW, and devs and even the player base have forgotten about game design for MMO's that was VERY successful before WoW.

iirc, there were restrictions for both traders. So it is not a valid example for both guild traders and a central hub.

Why isn't it?

The restrictions were on players who didn't want to invest into their economic skills. They were limited to the public traders.

Those who did invest in their economic skills got access to numerous personal traders, on their own self selected plot of land, and could sell whatever they wanted for as much as they wanted.

That is the epitome of a co-existence.

In ESO, someone like me would be able to toss some random loot on a public trader to make some extra gold while those who are investing in the economic side of the game will have bigger gains and rewards through the guild trader system

The value to crafting is insignificant in ESO. It is a complete joke Food is cheap, Armor, weapons, and jewelry crafted sets are far from BiS. The big value to leveling up crafting skill lines is upgrading armor and weapons, and changing traits. That cannot be sold to other players.

So again, the comparison is not very comparable.

It is comparable, but what you bring up points to the reason why the whole ESO economy is a joke to begin with.

I spoke only to the part of crafting. There are a lot of items to sell outside of crafted items. Materials for crafting is a big part of the market in ESO, just not the crafting itself. So not a joke in its entirety nor is it comparable.

Mats for crafting, for a crafting system that is wholly irrelevant.

People use crafted gear all of the time. A few of the meta PVP/PVE sets are crafted. And especially for players just starting out into end game content and haven't farmed the BIS sets.

The reason that crafting mats sell more than the actual gear is because the gear is better when made to order. If I am a crafter, I am never going to craft some random set piece, in a random trait, at a random level, in a random armor type, in a random style, and hope someone buys it. Because they wont. The only crafted pieces that sell are nirnhoned for researching.

Crafting is a bespoke service. People order crafted items from crafters with specifics that include level, armor type, set piece type, traits, etc. All of these things are impossible to do in any trading environment. If you think an Auction House will suddenly make your CP 100 invigorating Julianos heavy arms that you crafted sell, you are mistaken.

Which is why people sell the mats. It allows someone to determine all of the bespoke aspects of the gear they want without the seller needing to waste mats crafting random items and hoping they sell.

To another point that has been made by others. Your random mother's sorrow and necropotence set pieces are also not going to sell for any price worth listing in any trading environment. Unless they are purple jewelry or weapons, just deconstruct them and sell the mats. The actual gear pieces are incredibly easy to farm and barely sell because they aren't worth more than the vendor price. Same goes for most set pieces, outside of jewelry and weapons, you are just wasting slots and inventory to hold or sell the items. And you would still be wasting those trader spots in an Auction House and the sets would be worth even less. And still no one would buy them.

You have made my point about not needing a trade guild for my purposes for me.

Just let me put it on a public trader and get my 300-1500 gold and call it a day. Stop trying to funnel me through a guild trader system that is a waste of my time and a waste of time for the guild to host me.

Everyone benefits. You have literally sacrificed nothing by letting me get a few gold for my loot drops.

You can get a few gold at a vendor for your trash drops.

What the AH does do that impacts my gameplay is it lowers the cost of the items that players are actually buying until those prices are as low as trash prices. Essentially making them worthless. Your few crafted items that are wasting resources to even make shouldn't be valued over the set pieces that myself, and other traders, spent time to acquire, and time to learn their value, and time to invest in a trading system. Your refusal to participate in a system of the game doesn't warrant the upending of that system.

I have already outlined previous MMO's that had public traders AND the invested crafters still reaped the rewards of their investment.

I actually took part in the economies of those games, because it was valid and worthwhile.

The ESO economy is bleh

knightblaster · July 2020

jaws343 wrote: »

You can get a few gold at a vendor for your trash drops.

Your few crafted items that are wasting resources to even make shouldn't be valued over the set pieces that myself, and other traders, spent time to acquire, and time to learn their value, and time to invest in a trading system. Your refusal to participate in a system of the game doesn't warrant the upending of that system.

That's the bottom line.

What players don't understand is that you are not supposed to "casually participate" in the trading system. The trading system is designed as a full-blown playstyle system that requires a good deal of time and effort -- not as a general marketplace system. ESO doesn't support a general marketplace system -- it supports a time and effort intensive trading-as-playstyle system. The developers fully expect that everyone else who doesn't want to play that playstyle is to vendor their items and move along.

Again, the "cost" of this is that it doesn't provide a casual-friendly central market system to players who aren't economy players. But that's intentional -- it's the core intention of the design. It's fully expected that many players simply won't participate in the system and will simply vendor their items.

TheTwistedRune · July 2020

knightblaster wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

You can get a few gold at a vendor for your trash drops.

Your few crafted items that are wasting resources to even make shouldn't be valued over the set pieces that myself, and other traders, spent time to acquire, and time to learn their value, and time to invest in a trading system. Your refusal to participate in a system of the game doesn't warrant the upending of that system.

That's the bottom line.

What players don't understand is that you are not supposed to "casually participate" in the trading system. The trading system is designed as a full-blown playstyle system that requires a good deal of time and effort -- not as a general marketplace system. ESO doesn't support a general marketplace system -- it supports a time and effort intensive trading-as-playstyle system. The developers fully expect that everyone else who doesn't want to play that playstyle is to vendor their items and move along.

Again, the "cost" of this is that it doesn't provide a casual-friendly central market system to players who aren't economy players. But that's intentional -- it's the core intention of the design. It's fully expected that many players simply won't participate in the system and will simply vendor their items.

Some people are not arguing the facts of what the current system is. They are just saying they do not like it and would prefer/preferred an alternative, regardless if it is technically achievable or not.

knightblaster · July 2020

TheTwistedRune wrote: »

Some people are not arguing the facts of what the current system is. They are just saying they do not like it and would prefer an alternative.

Understood, but the design is intentional. It's very unlikely to change. I also do not like the design, and I do not participate in it, but I do not expect it ever to change.

Tigerseye · July 2020

BlueRaven wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Guilds should be there for high investment / high reward. Not for literally all trading and selling in the game.

Both systems, AH and guild trade, cannot coexist - where would the costumers for guilds come from, if they can just use the AH, it would kill the system ZOS has designed for this game. If there would be an AH I would most likely as well use it and give trading a pass - and an activity I enjoyed would be lost - and immersion gone with it as well - an AH is modern stuff, whereas the guild system fits more into the game's theme. It wouldn't hurt me financially, because I have already enough and nothing really to spend it on anyway. But I would see it as a loss for the game and it's theme in a whole.

They could coexist if one system (the trader system) was for one set of things only, like crafted items and the other system (the auction house system) was for non-crafted things, like mats (and perhaps, also, random drops).

This is precisely why I suggested a hybrid system, but let's just pretend no one ever suggested that, right?

By the way, Lysette, 2 million gold is practically nothing in this game.

My latest house, alone, probably cost 10x that to decorate (if you include all the mats and plans).

You may not have anything to spend gold on, but a lot of us do and the current system, although not 100% bad by any means, isn't working for us as well as it should do.

...and if that is "not [your] problem", I don't see why anyone should consider your loss of "immersion" (after 5 minutes of trading) theirs, quite frankly.

I read your post several times and I still don’t understand your proposed infrastructure.

Anyway, it seems like a lot of work to change a system that is working fine. I would rather they (zos) put their effort elsewhere.

I still don’t understand why would zos want to diminish the role of guilds. And where the new gold sink will be now that guilds are not paying for traders.

How can you not understand the blatantly obvious?

Especially when it is the same kind of system we have in real life.

Wholesalers/suppliers/warehouses>retailers.

There are five super markets near me. Every week we compare how much each is selling fruit, meat, and other items.

And we debate if we want to go to the closer one that may be more expensive or if it’s worth it to travel to the farther one.

In the store we may see corn in one and wonder if another store sells it for a better price. Sometimes we are right, sometimes not.

That is how the system works in real life.

That is also how the ESO system works. And I like it. It feels unique and it feels RP friendly. I have no problems with it.

And I don’t think many people have issues with it either. It’s not like I see zone chat filled with complaints about the trading system. And here it’s like it’s the same five people complaining about it.

I am sorry you don’t like the system, but as far as I am concerned this is just another case of “you can’t please everyone”.

No, that is how the RETAIL system works.

The supply chain is about a lot more than the retail system, lol.

We are not just buyers, in ESO, we are also manufacturers and sellers, so we need more than just a retail system alone.

VoxAdActa · July 2020

So after going from complete noCP restart newb to making 100k/week through guild traders in less than 30 days, my conclusion is this:

The half-dozen people here complaining about the guild trading system are not complaining about problems they've experienced in the guild-trading world. They're complaining about problems they anticipate having in the guild-trading world, but have actively refused to participate in.

The way everyone talks about TTC, about the wonders of an AH, the impossibility of joining a guild, the expected market value of all the great (yet CONSISTENTLY unnamed) stuff they'd sell if only there was an AH, the Shadowy Guild Illuminati Cabal, etc., is baffling. It's like they're complaining about a stereotype they heard about rather than anything they've actually dealt with (and it's like that, most probably, because it's exactly that).

It's like me saying I refuse to go to a hospital, and listing as my reasons for not going to a hospital a bunch of problems I saw in a zombie movie, but I've never actually been to a real hospital. But insisting that "hospitals are overrun with zombies and they don't have any security measures!" Meanwhile, doctors, nurses, and real hospital patrons are telling me "There are no zombies, dude," but I'm continuing to complain about the zombie problem in hospitals that MUST be fixed before I'll even come within a block of a hospital.

On another note, one positive effect an AH would have on me personally (and likely many other people like me) is that I'll never again have to ask "Should I sell 50 of these water hyacinths and wipe myself out for a bit, or should I just sell 40 and keep a few back in case I want to make a potion?". Because I'll just be keeping all of them, since they'll be worthless pretty quick on an AH. I can just grab some more skill points and craft all my stuff myself.

TheTwistedRune · July 2020

knightblaster wrote: »

TheTwistedRune wrote: »

Some people are not arguing the facts of what the current system is. They are just saying they do not like it and would prefer an alternative.

Understood, but the design is intentional. It's very unlikely to change. I also do not like the design, and I do not participate in it, but I do not expect it ever to change.

You are probably right. This far into ESO's rumoured 10 year dev cycle I agree it is unlikely. Perhaps a sequel will find a better middle ground somehow.

Lysette · July 2020

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I have no idea which of my 150 items I should try to sell? Which are likely to sell and which are just going to come back in 30 days? Which are in demand? No easy way to tell.

I can help with it - the guild UI has an activities panel - choose "sales" there and you see the actual trades happening in your guild, who has sold what to whom at which price. This way you can see what is actually selling in your location or guild and at which prices - those are not listed prices, but what customers where actually spending on these items - actual trades, not just wishful thinking - and based on that you can more easily decide which of your items to sell in that location or guild shop.

Looked at one of my guilds and it had 197 pages for the week to go thru. Very time consuming. Possible yes but not very practical. It would be nice it they would put some kind of search function here like when looking to buy something. Don't see it being to great of a deal to add since the function is already built into the base game.

Be safe and have fun

Yes that would be helpful - but if you have to go far back to find it, it shows you already, that it might not sell quickly - so going through this list is as well a journey back in time and gives you an impression of how fast something is selling. So this is not without information that it is simply in a timely order. And all the stuff you wade through on the way back is most likely stuff what sells quicker and might you earn more, because it has a higher throughput throughout the week - you have to consider that as well.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

knightblaster wrote: »

TheTwistedRune wrote: »

Some people are not arguing the facts of what the current system is. They are just saying they do not like it and would prefer an alternative.

Understood, but the design is intentional. It's very unlikely to change. I also do not like the design, and I do not participate in it, but I do not expect it ever to change.

"Intentional" does not mean "good". There are a lot of "intentional" design choices in ESO that are bad. ESO is also far from the only game with bad intentional design.

It might never change, but when the topic is brought up, I am going to add to the conversation with my thoughts on it.

At the end of the day, I don't ultimately care that much, because the amount of money I'm losing out on is inconsequential. That doesn't mean that I am okay with needlessly bad game design. But I'm not generally hurting because of it, even if I am inconvenienced for no reason.

If ESO had a better economy, I would participate.

But as the ESO economy is designed, I see no purpose to investing to be an end game economy player.

Lysette · July 2020

Tigerseye wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

But every guild with I guess at least 50 members has a guild shop - even if they have no NPC trader, there is a shop where you could offer it to other members - and if you really want just a small amount of money for it, this would be the place to do it. Not every guild has an NPC trader and if you just want to sell sets of this kind, other members could make use of what you acquired this way - so the opportunity is there.

I have no intention to make a lot of money in this game - I have already more than I need, I'm just trading to sell what I got and to free my occupied bank space from stuff which is just choking it. If it sells, fine, if not I will just delete it. I told our guild master from the very start, that I have not that much to sell, because I'm playing casually - but it is more than I expected.

Then, with all due respect Lysette, why are you here endlessly fighting for a system (and for no changes to a system) you yourself admit you are a complete novice in regards to?

According to you, you have only just started to play the game, in this regard, you have only made a couple of millions from it and you regard any problems, even problems more seasoned players (who do use the trader system) inform you they are having with it, as "not [your] problem".

So, if that is the case and you are happy to admit that is the case, why exactly are you here, endlessly fielding every comment and suggestion that doesn't 100% support the current system, often in a faux knowledgeable fashion?

...and not even just comments and suggestions from new players, who may know even less than you confess you do about the subject, but also comments and suggestions from far more seasoned players, who have identified genuine concerns, after years of playing this aspect of the game (both here and in other MMOs)?

I have 11.5 years of experience with a regional market system in EVE - so I'm certainly not new to how regional market systems work. I'm just unfamiliar with item prices in ESO, because I'm just trading in my 3rd week - starting my first week of with over a million gold in sales with a single guild - the second week was not much worse than this - and now in my 3rd week I'm testing out a few things to get to know my customers better - which means this week will not be in the same income range, but it is still a couple of tens of thousands of gold every day - I do what has to be done and I know well why I do it.

And I said as well I'm not using any add-ons - I try to do that all with in game tools - and that is why I have to test things: And these first weeks have made me more than I need for quite a while - so I can spend time on testing and just enjoying it. And without a purpose to spend gold on, making even more is just to increase a number - there is not much I could use this gold for - already after 2.5 weeks. But eventually I can find a market niche to break in where it is interesting and where I can invest in - so far I have still to check out where this niche could be.

knightblaster · July 2020

Lysette wrote: »

I have 11.5 years of experience with a regional market system in EVE - so I'm certainly not new to how regional market systems work.

I've played EVE on and off since 2004. EVE is nothing like ESO's economy. The differences are many, and they are all salient. To take a few of the bigger ones ....

In EVE you do not need to belong to a guild to sell to other players, and you don't need to have a guild trader in order to sell to players outside your guild. Anyone can access the market for buying and selling, and it isn't tied up in the way ESO's is.

In EVE you can see more than the products and prices located in the station and system you are in (and, with skills trained, you can also place orders much further away as well) -- you do not need to check each system, which is what you have to do in ESO unless you use out of game sites (which you do not need to do in EVE).

In EVE you have the functional equivalent of a virtually game-wide central market in Jita, which anyone can access and utilize (again, not gated behind a limited number of trading slots available to a limited number of guilds).

In EVE, you have a system of buy orders and sell orders, which means that a casual player who isn't an economy-as-playstyle player can very easily both sell and buy items with very transparent pricing.

In EVE, you can set up private sell contracts to sell high end or rare items which you do not want to sell on the market, or bundles of items, at prices you set, and at time frames you set, and you do not need a guild, a trader or anything of the sort.

EVE's system is nothing at all like ESO's.

ZaroktheImmortal · July 2020

BlueRaven wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

See, you don't have a global trade system in the real world as well and guess what you don't scrap off your legs by having to walk too much and for a too long time to get what you want.

The BIG difference is that if I go to the local supermarket for bread and cheese I KNOW THEY SELL IT.
I don' t have to try out 50 other shops.

If I want furniture I go to another shop. I can even call to ask if they have stock and reserve one for me.
So I KNOW THEY SELL IT.

Otherwise I can also FIND stuff and shop and compare prices from behind my PC.
Even order stuff without moving.

Please give me that in ESO.

PS I didn't say anything about lowest prices. My big issue is being able to find anything at all (beyond the basic stuff).
Honesly I don' t care bout paying 5000 gold more or less for that staff I want or that specific Redoran couch or whatever.
*

the local supermarket is selling it because you buy locally - he wouldn't offer it, if you would do the same like in game, going for the cheapest available somewhere.

You would find offers if you would be willing to pay a decent price - traders have to utilize their slots with those things which make them good money, they cannot offer something, what you might want but which doesn't make them enough money or is hard to sell.

If you want something really specific you cannot expect to get it everywhere - and you might not find it in the market at all, because no one is offering at the time being - if you look for rare items you will have to get a little creative - and eventually even talk to people - they might be able to help you or know someone who could help you - a trading guild for example is one of the places where people actually might have this information - but who doesn't want to join a trading guild?

Well let's see people who don't want to pay dues constantly for the ability to trade maybe? People who want to use their guild slots for something other than OMG TRADER

I am in a “no dues” trading guild. All they require is that you log in at least once every week. (Or at least let them know if you are going on vacation.)

My housing guild has a trader, no dues, and I am pretty sure you don’t even have to own a house.
If my housing guild can do this, I am sure there are pvp guilds (etc) out there that you can join, have no dues, and have a trader.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

aenax wrote: »

First and foremost ALL MMO have one,

I stopped reading at this point as this is the worst reason for anything to be added to ESO. Especially since ESO is superior to any major game on the market today. Those that actually play this game agree with that. Also, the fact the game has done well all these years without a central auction house does demonstrate it is not direly needed.

In the end, the trading system has been serving the game just fine and no one will be leaving ESO because of the trading system. So there is no real reason for Zos to abandon their preferred design.

I literally have friends who have left this game solely because of the lack of an auction house.

I would consider leaving if the game ADDED an auction house.

The game basically uses free market capitalism and it works.

[Quoted post was removed]

Why do you need to have a job as an in game crafter to sell stuff in a trader? Literally two different subjects. That is like saying that you need to grind battlegrounds so you can run trials. I only craft my own stuff and almost all of that is furniture . Ive never had to craft to be in a guild to sell my stuff. In fact almost every trade guild i have been in has been very hands off. Some you can go 2 or 3 weeks or more and not even list an item and these are guilds in one of the top 10 trade hubs, not that guy out at First Watch in the north end of Auridon.

I feel like a lot of people dont bother to learn how this system works but just want to criticize it because its not a lazy AH they dont have to put any more effort into than vendoring an item.

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

This whole "tying trading to a guild" design concept is bunk. It screws over literally anyone who doesn't want to be a full time trader. The only way to actually sell anything is to join a trading guild, but joining a trading guild is not really viable for anyone who isn't devoting their time to crafting to keep a full inventory up and running to pay the guild dues for. So instead of being able to make a little bit of extra cash with some excess loot tossed up on a vendor, we instead have to waste it by decon'ing it for more mats that we don't really need anyways because we aren't full time crafting.

You really have put zero effort into the whole trade guild concept and decided based on either very limited experience or hearsay from people who have no clue what they are talking about.

There are some weeks when i am to busy to play that i dont list 10 items between all of my trade guilds. I sell recipes and prints in some guilds that sell for 3 times the vendor price. Go look up what 3 times the vendor price is on " Recipe: Roast Pig" and "Pattern: Khajiit Banner, Claw". Not a lot of profit off these things especially when i am selling "Blueprint: Solitude Desk, Ornate" for 6 figures but i still use them as filler and they do sell.

If you do a bit of work and not looking for a top spot its pretty easy to find a guild to sell stuff in that has no requirements. Then if you want to expand your horizons there are guilds that have low requirements, medium requirements, and high requirements. The high requirement guilds are just fleecing you though. You can find low and medium requirement guilds in any trade hub and most will have a no requirement guild that operates off people who like to play raffles and those who sell a lot of big ticket items.

I think if you actually tried a bit to get in a trade guild, you would not have such a problem with it.

"Why do you need to have a job as an in game crafter to sell stuff in a trader?"

Because the only way to sell your gear as a crafter is to join a trade guild that has a vendor. And in order to be in a trade guild, you either have to be able to sell enough stuff to pay your dues, or meet minimum sales goals if you want to be in a guild that has any kind of quality trader.

I basically have to take a virtual retail job.

Not what I'm trying to do when I play a video game.

I want to be able to sell my crafted gear and looted items independently. I don't want to be a full blown crafter, and don't need the benefit of a guild trader. I just want to toss some stuff up on an auction house and get a little bit of credit for items without letting them go to waste. That shouldn't be too much to ask.

But ZOS has decided to tie the entire economy and commerce into guilds, and that's completely out of line. The fact is - I shouldn't *HAVE* to get into a trade guild just to sell some loose pieces of gear or loot here or there. I should be able to put it up on a centralized trader, and leave the trade guilds and guild traders for people who want to be more devoted to that and want to put in a greater investment for greater rewards.

Trust me - no trade guild worth a crap is going to want to take me in just so I have a place to sell the occasional piece of Mother's Sorrow or Plague Doctor's that I come across in random adventures.

Traders are not the doomday scenario you are making them out to be. Like you really are turning molehills into mountains and then actin like they are covered in 3 feet of snow and you have two broken legs all to make the point you prefer a central AH. Except no one is going to take that seriously because your arguments arent logical arguments. There are solutions to every "problem" you give, just not the solution you want of "central AH"

Everything you just said also applies to the anti-AH rhetoric.

The economy isnt going to collapse because I have a public trade to sell some spare pieces of gear

Actually it is a fact that central AHs collapses player economies in game. The constant penny war and need to quickly sell on a short term AH drives prices down quickly. AH are extremely easy to do price manipulation on. So you are left with a trade system that has to extremes in it. The price manipulator and the bargain basement that has a few useless trinkets some noob threw on there but no manipulator( or anyone else) is interested in.

Meanwhile the localized trade system in Eve online has being going strong since 2004. The only governing by devs is tweaks to the overall supply and demand of materials to make sure there are no bottlenecks in the economy since almost everything in the game is player built. The economy in Eve works and looks like a real world economy. That is after 16 years ran by players. The economy of ESO has been going for 6 years and it is still healthy. A central AH economy cant go 16 months after launch before its in the toilet.

So then do away with guild traders and let anyone use location traders but only to a specific amount of how much they can put up for trade(either done by in general amount or by location). How does the guilds improve on that?

The system is not broken. Why change it? And why would zos diminish the role of guilds?

We all have five guilds we can join per account. Join a casual guild of your preference that has a trader. I see ads for guilds all the time in zone chats boasting that the have a trader.

As an aside I find this whole conversation amusing as my casual social guild for older players decided to stop having a trader because so few players were using it. Most of the players had so many options in other guilds to post things for sale they did not need it.

It is broken. It wouldn't diminish guilds roles. Guilds are about far more than trading and in guilds I'm in the ones that aren't charging fees for players they have to work on raffles and it creates extra stress on the guild owners to raise that money for traders when they could just be focusing on the content and socialising.

AlienMagi · July 2020

I completely agree with the OP and their idea for implementing an auction house is pretty cool.

All of the arguments against it so far have been pretty bad and the pros of having an auction house are way better than the cons.

Anotherone773 · July 2020

knightblaster wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I have 11.5 years of experience with a regional market system in EVE - so I'm certainly not new to how regional market systems work.

I've played EVE on and off since 2004. EVE is nothing like ESO's economy. The differences are many, and they are all salient. To take a few of the bigger ones ....

It is when you talk about it in the same context we have been in this thread. And that is a focus on a decentralized market. We are not comparing Eve economy *** for tat to ESO.

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

It is broken. It wouldn't diminish guilds roles. Guilds are about far more than trading and in guilds I'm in the ones that aren't charging fees for players they have to work on raffles and it creates extra stress on the guild owners to raise that money for traders when they could just be focusing on the content and socialising.

Actually ESO lacks a real need of guilds outside of trading and crafting stations. Everything else can be as easily done( and often more efficiently) on a discord server. ESO guilds are in need of more purpose not less.