Punishment for inappropriate role in dungeons

mattaeus01b16_ESO · June 2020

Sometimes (just saying), it might be that they don't know.
In my exp, fake DPS, JUST DON'T KNOW THEY SUCK! its not their fault. ZoS leans on the exp player to point this out to them. And when there is a difference of 80k damage per sec between the ones that don't know, and the ones that over achieve, Well... its noticeable.
Fake healer? Yeah, seen it. Told them to put away the frost staff and try keeping everyone alive instead. In some cases again, they don't know. They are just doing what they do in the open world, cause they need to survive.
Fake tank... Been hearing it for 6 years. It use to be harder to fake tank. Sometimes they don't know... ie, why would I want to use a skill that makes them want to hit me! Or, I do more damage in Med and Light Armor! Or (My favorite) Don't care. I'm not sitting around Q'd as a DPS for hours waiting... And in that cause, they arnt getting any loot they spied on my toon they the NEEEED.

In any cause. Vote to kick, or walk away... sometimes its not worth the hour and a half struggle. Let that be the worry of the guy that replaces you.

L_Nici · June 2020

In those 4 people dungeons roles doesn't really matter in my opinion, you can easily beat them with 4 DD or 3 DD+Healer. Tanks are just not needed for them.

the1andonlyskwex · June 2020

L_Nici wrote: »

In those 4 people dungeons roles doesn't really matter in my opinion, you can easily beat them with 4 DD or 3 DD+Healer. Tanks are just not needed for them.

I can't really comment on 4DD because I always queue as a healer, but 3DD+H definitely doesn't always work. I've been in too many groups that turn into disasters because of fake tanks kiting bosses out of AoE (or failing to hold aggro, resulting in other people getting one-shotted or kiting bosses out of AoE).

mattaeus01b16_ESO · June 2020

L_Nici wrote: »

In those 4 people dungeons roles doesn't really matter in my opinion, you can easily beat them with 4 DD or 3 DD+Healer. Tanks are just not needed for them.

This is fine, as long as people know what they are doing. There is a start point in the game though.... I have had time where my tank was 70% of the DPS. I he was pulling a hole 10k at time (Wow, right?)
But if you are 20th level with no CP, and so is the tank, and the heals, and the other DPS... well, [Snip] suddenly becomes hard.

[Edited for profanity bypass]

MEBengalsFan2001 · June 2020

IMO here is a simple solution to ensure you get someone that is somewhat of a tank and healer.

To select the tank role the player has to have at minimum 3 heavy pieces of armor, must have sword & shield equipped on one of their bars with the taunt skill as an ability. If a player does not meet these requirements they cannot select tank as a role to q into content.

To select the role of healer player has to have the resto staff equipped on one of their bars and at least one ability from the resto staff line to Q as a healer.

If you Q and than go to remove your weapon that allows you to select the support role while waiting for the Q you are removed from the Q instantly. If you get into the Q you cannot swap out your support weapon and ability that allowed you to Q until you complete the dungeon or quit the dungeon.

I have seen this in other games and doing this improved the player experience in dungeons. I recommend this to ensure players don't abuse the Q to simply get into content quicker. This will decrease how fast a Q will pop for damage dealers but it will improve random dungeon runs for people who are not able to preform a group.

mairwen85 · June 2020

Saw title - got excited.
Read OP - disappointed.

the1andonlyskwex · June 2020

I don't think gear requirements are the solution. It's totally viable for a Warden to heal without a resto staff, or for someone to tank with an ice staff instead of s&b.

I think it needs to be some kind of behavior logging, combined with vote kick having an option to specify why you're kicking someone.

CleymenZero · June 2020

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

IMO here is a simple solution to ensure you get someone that is somewhat of a tank and healer.

To select the tank role the player has to have at minimum 3 heavy pieces of armor, must have sword & shield equipped on one of their bars with the taunt skill as an ability. If a player does not meet these requirements they cannot select tank as a role to q into content.

To select the role of healer player has to have the resto staff equipped on one of their bars and at least one ability from the resto staff line to Q as a healer.

If you Q and than go to remove your weapon that allows you to select the support role while waiting for the Q you are removed from the Q instantly. If you get into the Q you cannot swap out your support weapon and ability that allowed you to Q until you complete the dungeon or quit the dungeon.

I have seen this in other games and doing this improved the player experience in dungeons. I recommend this to ensure players don't abuse the Q to simply get into content quicker. This will decrease how fast a Q will pop for damage dealers but it will improve random dungeon runs for people who are not able to preform a group.

That doesn't work. Good tanks will tank in medium sometimes.

I'm not even a good tank and I tank vDSA in medium with alkosh on the body and backbar perfected Olori-memes. SO So far, 38.9k with 8 deaths is our best and one of em is CP 400 something. To be fair he's a console transfer and a pretty good player also but yeah, then heavy armor requirement isn't a good criteria.

Health isn't either. If you want 30k and a guy can do an amazing job with 25k health, it would be stupid to prevent that and finally, SnB is not an absolute req for tanking either. I've seen ice staff and resto backbar builds work pretty well.

It's hard to say what criteria would work but a taunt would be a good start.

MEBengalsFan2001 · June 2020

CleymenZero wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

IMO here is a simple solution to ensure you get someone that is somewhat of a tank and healer.

To select the tank role the player has to have at minimum 3 heavy pieces of armor, must have sword & shield equipped on one of their bars with the taunt skill as an ability. If a player does not meet these requirements they cannot select tank as a role to q into content.

To select the role of healer player has to have the resto staff equipped on one of their bars and at least one ability from the resto staff line to Q as a healer.

If you Q and than go to remove your weapon that allows you to select the support role while waiting for the Q you are removed from the Q instantly. If you get into the Q you cannot swap out your support weapon and ability that allowed you to Q until you complete the dungeon or quit the dungeon.

I have seen this in other games and doing this improved the player experience in dungeons. I recommend this to ensure players don't abuse the Q to simply get into content quicker. This will decrease how fast a Q will pop for damage dealers but it will improve random dungeon runs for people who are not able to preform a group.

That doesn't work. Good tanks will tank in medium sometimes.

I'm not even a good tank and I tank vDSA in medium with alkosh on the body and backbar perfected Olori-memes. SO So far, 38.9k with 8 deaths is our best and one of em is CP 400 something. To be fair he's a console transfer and a pretty good player also but yeah, then heavy armor requirement isn't a good criteria.

Health isn't either. If you want 30k and a guy can do an amazing job with 25k health, it would be stupid to prevent that and finally, SnB is not an absolute req for tanking either. I've seen ice staff and resto backbar builds work pretty well.

It's hard to say what criteria would work but a taunt would be a good start.

A tank that isn't using the taunt from the Sword and Shield line isn't helping their group as they are not maximizing the group debuff. They are making content harder. That is why I said they need the taunt with Sword and Shield. Having that along with the debuff that is typically used on a staff really makes bosses die faster in content.

My recommendation is around improving the Qing process for dungeons and nothing to do with trials. So an adjustment could be made around the role but when Qing if you don't meet the requirements it should state what you need to Q as said role.

the1andonlyskwex · June 2020

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

A tank that isn't using the taunt from the Sword and Shield line isn't helping their group as they are not maximizing the group debuff. They are making content harder. That is why I said they need the taunt with Sword and Shield. Having that along with the debuff that is typically used on a staff really makes bosses die faster in content.

You're setting the bar way too high. I don't really care about a tank applying major fracture or a healer applying major breach in most content. In fact, half the time someone else is providing those debuffs anyway from their damage skills.

The basic requirement for tanking is to hold aggro and keep the boss reasonably still, while the basic requirement for healing is to heal enough damage that everyone else can do their job instead of focusing on self-healing. Anything beyond that is something you shouldn't expect from the group finder.

willjones1122 · June 2020

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

IMO here is a simple solution to ensure you get someone that is somewhat of a tank and healer.

To select the tank role the player has to have at minimum 3 heavy pieces of armor, must have sword & shield equipped on one of their bars with the taunt skill as an ability. If a player does not meet these requirements they cannot select tank as a role to q into content.

To select the role of healer player has to have the resto staff equipped on one of their bars and at least one ability from the resto staff line to Q as a healer.

If you Q and than go to remove your weapon that allows you to select the support role while waiting for the Q you are removed from the Q instantly. If you get into the Q you cannot swap out your support weapon and ability that allowed you to Q until you complete the dungeon or quit the dungeon.

I have seen this in other games and doing this improved the player experience in dungeons. I recommend this to ensure players don't abuse the Q to simply get into content quicker. This will decrease how fast a Q will pop for damage dealers but it will improve random dungeon runs for people who are not able to preform a group.

That doesn't work. Good tanks will tank in medium sometimes.

I'm not even a good tank and I tank vDSA in medium with alkosh on the body and backbar perfected Olori-memes. SO So far, 38.9k with 8 deaths is our best and one of em is CP 400 something. To be fair he's a console transfer and a pretty good player also but yeah, then heavy armor requirement isn't a good criteria.

Health isn't either. If you want 30k and a guy can do an amazing job with 25k health, it would be stupid to prevent that and finally, SnB is not an absolute req for tanking either. I've seen ice staff and resto backbar builds work pretty well.

It's hard to say what criteria would work but a taunt would be a good start.

A tank that isn't using the taunt from the Sword and Shield line isn't helping their group as they are not maximizing the group debuff. They are making content harder. That is why I said they need the taunt with Sword and Shield. Having that along with the debuff that is typically used on a staff really makes bosses die faster in content.

My recommendation is around improving the Qing process for dungeons and nothing to do with trials. So an adjustment could be made around the role but when Qing if you don't meet the requirements it should state what you need to Q as said role.

What debuff are you getting from snb taunt that you can't get from other sources? A Necro tank can aoe major breach and fracture. Mag dmg/healers usually slot the destro staff breach and stam players can slot fracture into a build. This is 4 man pugs we're talking about. You want a buff/debuff? Be prepared to do it yourself. If you go in expecting full raid buffs/debuffs then you better slot all of them yourself, because reliance on 3 other random players with different ideas of what a role is/should do and how to play is... Random at best.

kargen27 · June 2020

mikejezz wrote: »

Lock tanks to sword and shield problem solved.

I know that doesn't mean they use the right skills, but who wanna dps with sword and shield?

I have a very good Necromancer tank that doesn't use sword and shield. Not problem solved but an assault on build divercity.

the1andonlyskwex · June 2020

I'm sure the actual implementation is harder than I'm going to make it sound, but in my mind the solution has the following steps:
1) Log combat in dungeons
2) Add a specific option to report someone for an inappropriate role when you kick them.
3) If the kick vote passes, automatically review the log for things like the number of times taunt was used, or total effective HP (accounting for mitigation) for tanks; the amount of healing done for healers, or the amount of damage done for DPS.
4) If, based on the review, someone was kicked by their group for queuing inappropriately, and was obviously not performing the role they queued for, give them a 24-hour, account-wide, ban on queuing for that role in the group finder.
5) Increase the ban duration for repeat offenses.

DigitalHype · June 2020

Crowdsource a silent "quality of role" ranking system 1-5 (1 worst. 5 best at each role).

After each boss kill, everyone gets a short-lived pop-up to rate each party member's performance. Dungeon timers are paused while this rating window is up. If no selection is made a null entry (not a zero) is applied (i.e. no change). ZOS could use the normal statistics tricks to give lesser weight to massive outliers in ratings, etc.

Here is the key. No one but ZOS and yourself ever get to see your role ranking. Now use this as a metric for the queuing priority when you select that role.

When someone's role ranking falls below a minimally viable threshold of say 1.5, they get a notification when they attempt to queue as that low-ranked role. Something along the lines of:

"Your <tank|healer|dps> role rating is below the minimum threshold. If you queue as this role, you will suffer a queuing penalty. Would you like to queue as (list of your viable rated roles) instead with normal priority?

If they chose to stick with queing the role they have a very poor rating on, they will get put behind anyone in that queue who has a minimum viable rating for that role for some length of time determined by the current queue length for that role.

This would mean that "bad" fake tanks would stop getting a benefit of not waiting in the queue.

Example of pop-up after boss for all players (30 seconds to complete)
(click 1-5 stars 5=best)
rate tank (playername).
rate dps1 (playername)
rate dps2 (playername)
rate healer (playername)

Curtdogg47 · June 2020

Part of the problem is people don’t want to wait hours to do a dungeon. But honestly if you want a decent group join a guild for it. Don’t PUG and expect it to be a optimal.

anitajoneb17_ESO · June 2020

DigitalHype wrote: »

Crowdsource a silent "quality of role" ranking system 1-5 (1 worst. 5 best at each role).

So everyone should be "evaluated" and "policed" by everyone so that a few angry selfish can get what they want in the group finder and not do what it takes to get integrated in a guild or in a group of friends ?
Seriously... ?

Dr_Sinister · June 2020

It's simple. If a certain criteria isn't met then you can't choose that role. It's not rocket science seen as how many other MMO's are capable of doing this.

willjones1122 · June 2020

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I'm sure the actual implementation is harder than I'm going to make it sound, but in my mind the solution has the following steps:
1) Log combat in dungeons
2) Add a specific option to report someone for an inappropriate role when you kick them.
3) If the kick vote passes, automatically review the log for things like the number of times taunt was used, or total effective HP (accounting for mitigation) for tanks; the amount of healing done for healers, or the amount of damage done for DPS.
4) If, based on the review, someone was kicked by their group for queuing inappropriately, and was obviously not performing the role they queued for, give them a 24-hour, account-wide, ban on queuing for that role in the group finder.
5) Increase the ban duration for repeat offenses.

Who is going to review it? Think of all the false reports that the devs would have to sift through to find the one that might have actually q'd as a fake. Who sets the requirements? Does it vary by dungeon/fight mechanics/level of player or is it a standard across all? What if it's an inexperienced player who queued up for the right role but was just learning to play in harder content?
I know you said it would be harder than you made it sound in your post but I'm not even sure it would be feasible from a personnel standpoint. They would have to dedicate resources (people to review the complaints) to something that really isn't an issue for them monetarily.

CleymenZero · June 2020

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

IMO here is a simple solution to ensure you get someone that is somewhat of a tank and healer.

To select the tank role the player has to have at minimum 3 heavy pieces of armor, must have sword & shield equipped on one of their bars with the taunt skill as an ability. If a player does not meet these requirements they cannot select tank as a role to q into content.

To select the role of healer player has to have the resto staff equipped on one of their bars and at least one ability from the resto staff line to Q as a healer.

If you Q and than go to remove your weapon that allows you to select the support role while waiting for the Q you are removed from the Q instantly. If you get into the Q you cannot swap out your support weapon and ability that allowed you to Q until you complete the dungeon or quit the dungeon.

I have seen this in other games and doing this improved the player experience in dungeons. I recommend this to ensure players don't abuse the Q to simply get into content quicker. This will decrease how fast a Q will pop for damage dealers but it will improve random dungeon runs for people who are not able to preform a group.

That doesn't work. Good tanks will tank in medium sometimes.

I'm not even a good tank and I tank vDSA in medium with alkosh on the body and backbar perfected Olori-memes. SO So far, 38.9k with 8 deaths is our best and one of em is CP 400 something. To be fair he's a console transfer and a pretty good player also but yeah, then heavy armor requirement isn't a good criteria.

Health isn't either. If you want 30k and a guy can do an amazing job with 25k health, it would be stupid to prevent that and finally, SnB is not an absolute req for tanking either. I've seen ice staff and resto backbar builds work pretty well.

It's hard to say what criteria would work but a taunt would be a good start.

A tank that isn't using the taunt from the Sword and Shield line isn't helping their group as they are not maximizing the group debuff. They are making content harder. That is why I said they need the taunt with Sword and Shield. Having that along with the debuff that is typically used on a staff really makes bosses die faster in content.

My recommendation is around improving the Qing process for dungeons and nothing to do with trials. So an adjustment could be made around the role but when Qing if you don't meet the requirements it should state what you need to Q as said role.

Razor caltrops is an aoe fracture and costs 2k stam and ele drain costs nothing, applies major breach and helps tremendously with mag recovery...

If you have a mag or stam warden, they're providing that respective debuff to the whole group. If you have a stamDK, same thing, major fracture and the list goes on.

I stand by my statement.

And also, I'd report 99% of dps if people started reporting others for not fulfilling their roles so I'd prefer not to... When I pug, I have absolutely no expectations.

the1andonlyskwex · June 2020

Curtdogg47 wrote: »

Part of the problem is people don’t want to wait hours to do a dungeon. But honestly if you want a decent group join a guild for it. Don’t PUG and expect it to be a optimal.

[snip]
2) I don't expect optimal from PuGs, but I would like to at least get a good faith effort to do the right thing. Most of the time when I ask a tank to please use taunt or stop kiting the boss around the room, the response I get is literally something like "haha, I'm not a real tank, the DPS queue is just too long". That's not just a bad tank (which I can tolerate), it's a fake tank.

[edited for baiting]

DigitalHype · June 2020

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

DigitalHype wrote: »

Crowdsource a silent "quality of role" ranking system 1-5 (1 worst. 5 best at each role).

So everyone should be "evaluated" and "policed" by everyone so that a few angry selfish can get what they want in the group finder and not do what it takes to get integrated in a guild or in a group of friends ?
Seriously... ?

Yes. Seriously. No one but yourself and ZOS would see your class rank. And I'm only proposing it queue penalize you if your class rank is disproportionately bad. I'm talking low percentile ranking. This wouldn't punish someone who performes at or near average at that role. It would only punish chronic role abuses who perform poorly at it. ZoS could easily determine a minimum viable class metric based on median ranks and could even slightly weight it based on player level to account for learning curve.

DigitalHype · June 2020

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

DigitalHype wrote: »

Crowdsource a silent "quality of role" ranking system 1-5 (1 worst. 5 best at each role).

So everyone should be "evaluated" and "policed" by everyone so that a few angry selfish can get what they want in the group finder and not do what it takes to get integrated in a guild or in a group of friends ?
Seriously... ?

Also, if you are integrated into a guild and not using the finder you wouldn't be affected.

anitajoneb17_ESO · June 2020

DigitalHype wrote: »

Yes. Seriously.

You can't be serious.
Let's put it the other way around then : if someone cannot make the effort to join a guild and make a few friends to run dungeons in an MMO, then he/she obviously lacks the basic social skills required to play an MMO and shouldn't play at all.

Cost of my suggestion : none
Efficiency : 100%
Benefit : immediate.
Implementation : now.

Grandchamp1989 · June 2020

There's such an easy system to allow flex builds while also not ruining for the group that qued correctly.
It would literally take the fake quer 1 minute to adapt to these simple rules:

Healer:
Must have atleast 2 AOE healing spells equipped

Tank:
Must have a taunt equipped and 20k health minimum (that is LOW and can easily be achieved by eating 1 food)

It would leave a huge gab for flex builts, absolutely huge while making sure the guy going in got the minimum requirements covered for a PUG run.

If people don't want to keep it that way, then it would take them another 30 seconds, at most, to change 1-2 skills on their bar back to its original set up.

Xebov · June 2020

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

I suggest to make special report for inappropriate role, so every player in dungeon can report for it. If player get 10 reports he can't search for dungeon for 24 hours. This can be a 1st step as a cardinal solution

The first to be banned would be all the DDs queueing for vet pledges with their 10k DPS. They would be reported by tanks and healers because they are essentiall useless and not living up to their role.

The next to be banned would be the healers in vet pledges. They would get banned by the bad and inexperienced players because they stay in AoE and one shot mechanics or that dont have the required minimum health to survive some mechanics and blame the healer for dying.

The next to be banned would be tanks in vet pledges. They would get banned by the bad and inexperienced players that dont know mechanics and dont know that some bosses randomly attack a player or are not tauntable by design.

So now you got rid of all the "problematic players". The bad and inexperienced dds would never again be able to play dungeons. Same goes for most of the tanks and healers which leaves just the good dds left. So before you make suggestions step back and think about what could happen for 5minutes before posting them.

Xebov · June 2020

Sealish wrote: »

You could still implement the skill check at que time though. If someone swaps out of the skill once the dungeon starts, at least you know that they have access to it to put back on. No who ques tank or healer could say "I don't have a Taunt/Heal"

This wouldnt get you far to be honest.

willjones1122 · June 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

There's such an easy system to allow flex builds while also not ruining for the group that qued correctly.
It would literally take the fake quer 1 minute to adapt to these simple rules:

Healer:
Must have atleast 2 AOE healing spells equipped

Tank:
Must have a taunt equipped and 20k health minimum (that is LOW and can easily be achieved by eating 1 food)

It would leave a huge gab for flex builts, absolutely huge while making sure the guy going in got the minimum requirements covered for a PUG run.

If people don't want to keep it that way, then it would take them another 30 seconds, at most, to change 1-2 skills on their bar back to its original set up.

But that doesn't solve the problem. If you fake as a tank you can have a taunt equipped for the check, get into the dungeon and remove it from the bar then refuse to tank. How is that any better? I don't think there is an easy answer, other than maybe screen capping the guy flagrantly running around saying "hahaha I'm a fake tank" and reporting it to ZOS. But again not sure if they will do anything as i don't think it's violating tos or breaking any laws/rules other than common courtesy and decency.

Sephyr · June 2020

While the OP may not feel it to be a solution, I've never had a problem with bringing in three friends into a normal dungeon. Those are soloable anyways (barring certain mechanics that need a second player's input), so roles shouldn't even matter. When you PuG, you accept the risks of online gameplay may not be to your expectations.

the1andonlyskwex · June 2020

willjones1122 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I'm sure the actual implementation is harder than I'm going to make it sound, but in my mind the solution has the following steps:
1) Log combat in dungeons
2) Add a specific option to report someone for an inappropriate role when you kick them.
3) If the kick vote passes, automatically review the log for things like the number of times taunt was used, or total effective HP (accounting for mitigation) for tanks; the amount of healing done for healers, or the amount of damage done for DPS.
4) If, based on the review, someone was kicked by their group for queuing inappropriately, and was obviously not performing the role they queued for, give them a 24-hour, account-wide, ban on queuing for that role in the group finder.
5) Increase the ban duration for repeat offenses.

Who is going to review it? Think of all the false reports that the devs would have to sift through to find the one that might have actually q'd as a fake. Who sets the requirements? Does it vary by dungeon/fight mechanics/level of player or is it a standard across all? What if it's an inexperienced player who queued up for the right role but was just learning to play in harder content?
I know you said it would be harder than you made it sound in your post but I'm not even sure it would be feasible from a personnel standpoint. They would have to dedicate resources (people to review the complaints) to something that really isn't an issue for them monetarily.

The review would be automated. A (reasonably simple) algorithm could do it. All ZoS need to do is define some simple heuristics for each boss fight. This would include things like minimum taunt uptime, minimum effective HP, minimum DPS, etc. Healing might be a little trickier because sometimes a group doesn't need much healing, but I'm partially relying on the vote kick mechanic to prevent reviews when someone isn't actually hurting their group. The thresholds would be set very low on purpose to avoid people complaining about how the algorithm treated them unfairly.

The goal isn't to punish people who aren't very good at their role, it's to punish people who aren't even trying.

Starlock · June 2020

willjones1122 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I'm sure the actual implementation is harder than I'm going to make it sound, but in my mind the solution has the following steps:
1) Log combat in dungeons
2) Add a specific option to report someone for an inappropriate role when you kick them.
3) If the kick vote passes, automatically review the log for things like the number of times taunt was used, or total effective HP (accounting for mitigation) for tanks; the amount of healing done for healers, or the amount of damage done for DPS.
4) If, based on the review, someone was kicked by their group for queuing inappropriately, and was obviously not performing the role they queued for, give them a 24-hour, account-wide, ban on queuing for that role in the group finder.
5) Increase the ban duration for repeat offenses.

Who is going to review it? Think of all the false reports that the devs would have to sift through to find the one that might have actually q'd as a fake. Who sets the requirements? Does it vary by dungeon/fight mechanics/level of player or is it a standard across all? What if it's an inexperienced player who queued up for the right role but was just learning to play in harder content?
I know you said it would be harder than you made it sound in your post but I'm not even sure it would be feasible from a personnel standpoint. They would have to dedicate resources (people to review the complaints) to something that really isn't an issue for them monetarily.

It would be done by machine learning AI, of course. As if we need anything else dragging down the performance of this game, right? Haha!