Punishment for inappropriate role in dungeons

MikeSkyrim333

ZOS must make reports for choosing inappropriate role in dungeons, because players are abusing it

Even in normal dungeons I have problems due to fake tanks, fake healers and fake dd. I recently played DLC normal dungeon for 40 minutes (!) because I had a fake tank that died on the first boss with 2 hits and this happens very often, this is not normal! He even didn't have taunt!

Kicking is not a solution

Why should I search for a dungeon for 20-30 minutes as a dd, and fake tank (dd) finds it in 10 seconds? Let's all choose the role of the tank and chaos will begin

I suggest to make special report for inappropriate role, so every player in dungeon can report for it. If player get 10 reports he can't search for dungeon for 24 hours. This can be a 1st step as a cardinal solution

And yes, gathering your own group is not a solution, it’s avoiding of the problem

Starlock

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

And yes, gathering your own group is not a solution, it’s avoiding of the problem

It is a solution. Especially when suggestions like yours to fix the problem will introduce new problems. Notably, the inevitable abuse of any such system. Which already happens with the vote-to-kick system as it is.

zvavi

A bit long but...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/524205/the-undaunted-certification-zvavi-is-bored-in-quarantine

dotme

Too much potential for abuse. Voting people out of the instance is the remedy. Not voting them out of the game.

Starlock

dotme wrote: »

Too much potential for abuse. Voting people out of the instance is the remedy. Not voting them out of the game.

It gets worse than that, even. It would cut into Zenimax's bottom line. They won't ever implement a system like this. Allow players to ban other players from an activity with a vote system? No way that is ever going to happen.

VaranisArano

Guaranteed Solution: queue with a premade group where you can require that players you know fill the roles you require

If you queue with randoms, you'll get random players who may or may not meet your standards. At that point, you can kick them or express your displeasure in chat, and that's about it.

ZOS isn't going to give you any more than that because toxic players would use it to be toxic and lots would use it for frivolous reporting. While fake tanks are obvious, damage dealers would get more complaints if they aren't fighting up to extremely arbitrary standards. Genuine tanks still get yelled at when players don't know the mechanics of certain boss attacks. As for healers, can you imagine getting dinged because your teammates won't stop standing in stupid? It'll cause more problems than it solves.

zvavi

The main problem is that Zo$ don't want to create minimum requirements for the content they created. Not for dds. Nor for healers. Nor for tanks. The first step is to define in-game requirements for the roles, as long as it is not done, we will always have fake tanks. And healers. And dds.

Tandor

Player judges are never a good thing in any game. To say it has potential for abuse doesn't even come close. That's quite apart from the obvious question - who gets to decide when it's a fake role, and on what criteria?

As I've said previously in such discussions - this topic was brought to you by the Campaign for the Promotion of Soloing in MMOs !

Firstmep

Recently while farming mythics, i did a lot of "fake " tanking in normal dungeons, in full dd gear, just replaced 1 skill with inner rage and thats it.
Thing is i had the damage to solo those dungeons, and resolving vigor will keep any stam setup alive any day.
So yeah i basically carried a lot of low lvls through those dungeons, i wonder if they would complain about me not having 30k hp and using sword and board.
Also tanking in this game isnt just about holding aggro and not dying, you have to debuff etc. But a lot of normal dungeons dont really need a tank as experienced players can easily solo it anyway.

Just my 2 cents.

idk

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

ZOS must make reports for choosing inappropriate role in dungeons, because players are abusing it

Players would abuse a system for reporting players because they did not meet their personal requirements for a role or just to grief players. We know this would happen due to all the thread complaining about how they were treated in a GF group.

Zos already made a punishment available. The 15-minute penalty for when you kick someone from the group. I assume anyone who would create a thread complaining about this kicked them from the group.

BTW, have an alt build so you can tank for the group if you get a fake tank and kick them. Then you do not get punished either and it is such an easy solution.

robertthebard

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

ZOS must make reports for choosing inappropriate role in dungeons, because players are abusing it

Even in normal dungeons I have problems due to fake tanks, fake healers and fake dd. I recently played DLC normal dungeon for 40 minutes (!) because I had a fake tank that died on the first boss with 2 hits and this happens very often, this is not normal! He even didn't have taunt!

Kicking is not a solution

Why should I search for a dungeon for 20-30 minutes as a dd, and fake tank (dd) finds it in 10 seconds? Let's all choose the role of the tank and chaos will begin

I suggest to make special report for inappropriate role, so every player in dungeon can report for it. If player get 10 reports he can't search for dungeon for 24 hours. This can be a 1st step as a cardinal solution

And yes, gathering your own group is not a solution, it’s avoiding of the problem

[snip] What happens when you're kicked for a fake role? Note, not if, but when. Because it's going to happen. You're going to say something to someone that makes 'em made, and maybe enough people in the group agree, and vote kick you for a fake role. Wait, there's more. In swtor, when a guildmate would report a player to the guild for blacklisting, we'd all do it. What happens if their guild reports you? What happens after the first 24 hours, if you get into a group with someone else from that player's guild, and you get vote kicked yet again, and reported for a fake role?

As you can see, this is way open to abuse. If you feel like you shouldn't have to wait for a group as a DD, something that is extremely common in MMOs, then you're going to be in for some major disappointment. My guildmate and I waited 45 minutes for a queue pop in swtor one night. After that, since we really wanted to run the content, I swapped to my tank, and he to his healer, and the first pop was instantaneous. So fast, in fact, that one of the DPS missed it, and we went back into the queue, for under a minute. Tanks and healers are the most abused players in any MMO. I mean, let's look at your post here, right? The only thing we know for certain is what you're telling us.

So you have two options: Vote kick the player, or form your own group. Yes, this is avoiding the issue, and frankly, that's the only options players should have. If you don't have enough friends to make a group, then you're out of luck until they log in. Hope it's not more than 20 or 30 minutes in the queue, eh? If it's "you don't have enough friends anyway", that's something that you'll have to work on.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

richo262

Save for a few DLC dungeons, the dungeons on normal are so easy I have resorted to making a fake tank loadout on my main tank. Even base game dungeons on vet can be done with 3 dps 1 heal, and it is actually faster.

Should it be required, I can always swap back to a real tank at the push of a button using an addon.

I think people complaining about fake tanks on normal difficulty, especially non-dlc dungeons on normal are just being pedantic, and I'd prefer ZOS support not be bogged down by this.

The best solution would be for players to have the ability to merge 2 or 3 characters into one.

For instance, if I have a Nord Tank DK, High Elf mDK, Orc StamDK and I could merge my High Elf and Orc into my Nord resulting in my Nord having:

Increased Inventory
Multiple loadouts for attribute loadouts
Multiple loadouts for skill sets (therefore ability to swap morphs on the fly)
Multiple loadouts for racial changes (depending on what race was merged)
Multiple sets of CP loadouts
Being able to pair a loadout with a role. Ie if you set tank as your role it will by default select your tank loadout, but you're not locked into it.

As it stands, making a tank nerfs the player from doing any overworld content, acquiring skill points etc. So for many players, making a tank is a heavy investment that ends up being quite the chore to maintain. If people were able to make more versatile characters then you will naturally find people exploring making a tanking loadout on their characters. More tanks, less fake tanks, more tanks, faster que times.

We presently have 3 character slots per class. I'd personally prefer the option to roll all 3 into 1 character per class and have that 1 character able to have the loadout of 3 or more characters making him much more versatile.

FakeFox

Can't wait to get every DD that does less damage then my healer banned from dungeons. What a wonderful idea!

redspecter23

If you can't see how the "solution" is far worse than the problem, I don't know what to say. Would we then need a reporting tool to report people who false report fake roles? When does it end? When you form your own group and stop expecting group finder to be the solution to all your grouping problems.

deleted221106-002999

Firstmep wrote: »

Recently while farming mythics, i did a lot of "fake " tanking in normal dungeons, in full dd gear, just replaced 1 skill with inner rage and thats it ......tanking in this game isnt just about holding aggro and not dying, you have to debuff etc.

That's not a fake tank.

A fake tank is a crappy queue-skipping dd/dps who doesn't do any of that, dies frequently, does very little damage even when up and is generally a group liability. You get a moron like that in a group and the healer (assuming the healer is real) ends up tanking - I suspect it's a primary motivator for many healers to branch out into tanking.

To OP: form your own group. Whether it's friends/guildies or via zone chat - the group finder by definition will give you randoms.

optional summary.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

While I agree its annoying when people fank/feal, I have to admit...some of my funnest dungeons have been with 3 DD and me (healer). On the flip side, I have also quit dungeons because it was just impossible without the tank, and I did not want to spend every 30 seconds rezzing someone. So long as everyone knows what they're doing, it makes for a refreshing mix up. Sometimes, even a faster finish.

The last "enjoyable" time this happened to me was just a normal dungeon with a fank, but we had that sync-up moment and started doing a ring-around-the-rosy thing, keeping the boss/mob in the center. There were even times where we all just took turns being monkey in the middle, to keep the mob/boss central.

But anyhow, yes, I agree its wrong when people fake their role for the sake of queue time, but with a little communication, or some improvising, I actually quite like running dungeons outside the norm. But Im also the type who doesnt like things to be easy. I guess Im just a sucker for punishment.

Not to get off track... but this is also the reason I want more than just 2 skill bars. If we can all be better equipped, we can more easily adapt to this problem, without having to switch to an alt (because not everyone has the time or dedication to build more than one character).

mikejezz

Lock tanks to sword and shield problem solved.

I know that doesn't mean they use the right skills, but who wanna dps with sword and shield?

redgreensunset

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

ZOS must make reports for choosing inappropriate role in dungeons, because players are abusing it

Even in normal dungeons I have problems due to fake tanks, fake healers and fake dd. I recently played DLC normal dungeon for 40 minutes (!) because I had a fake tank that died on the first boss with 2 hits and this happens very often, this is not normal! He even didn't have taunt!

Kicking is not a solution

Why should I search for a dungeon for 20-30 minutes as a dd, and fake tank (dd) finds it in 10 seconds? Let's all choose the role of the tank and chaos will begin

I suggest to make special report for inappropriate role, so every player in dungeon can report for it. If player get 10 reports he can't search for dungeon for 24 hours. This can be a 1st step as a cardinal solution

And yes, gathering your own group is not a solution, it’s avoiding of the problem

Lol yeah, that's not going to be abused at all /s

The situation isn't grand in pugs, I agree, but that is going to make things so much worse. I've read my share of bad ideas in mmo forums in my life, this one goes straight into the top ten of absolutely terrible ideas.

Sealish

I have a possible solution... but it requires a bit of a change to how dungeons (and raids) work for it to be possible. It is my opinion that Gear and Skills should be locked in while inside of a dungeon. You should no be able to change them up. Lots of games that give you more abilities than you can equip at any one time do this as a way to enforce your build and stop things like everyone swapping from AOE skills for trash to Single Target skills for bosses.

If this happened... then there could be a simple check when queing for a dungeon. In order to que tank, you need to have some way to taunt, either an ice staff with passive or a skill equipped. In order to heal, you need to have at least one skill equipped that can restore health to party members.

This wouldn't stop people from making fake healers and tanks completely... but it would ensure that anyone who gets into a dungeon as the role at least has the capability to perform it (however poorly).

redgreensunset

Sealish wrote: »

I have a possible solution... but it requires a bit of a change to how dungeons (and raids) work for it to be possible. It is my opinion that Gear and Skills should be locked in while inside of a dungeon. You should no be able to change them up. Lots of games that give you more abilities than you can equip at any one time as a way to enforce your build and stop things like everyone swapping from AOE skills for trash to Single Target skills for bosses.

If this happened... then there could be a simple check when queing for a dungeon. In order to que tank, you need to have some way to taunt, either an ice staff with passive or a skill equipped. In order to heal, you need to have at least one skill equipped that can restore health to party members.

This wouldn't stop people from making fake healers and tanks completely... but it would ensure that anyone who gets into a dungeon as the role at least has the capability to perform it (however poorly).

While nowhere near as bad as OP's idea this still isn't a good one. Sorry but sometimes me or my group have to switch up skills during a dungeon to get through a boss fight, or just make things easier for us. Especially if we're testing things out, new build, new grouping structure, heck whole new dungeon or whatever.
This idea needlessly punish groups that are premade and trying things out by forcing them to start over completely if their setup doesn't work, simply because a minority can't behave.

Xologamer

mikejezz wrote: »

Lock tanks to sword and shield problem solved.

I know that doesn't mean they use the right skills, but who wanna dps with sword and shield?

i would - jsut backbar it and frontbar duel wield will be neought for atleast ~40k dps
and if u say now than lock tanks on ONLY snb than u would lock out every good tank
and if u say snb and destro than ill do the same with a mag char

so u simply cant fix this ,,problem" its not possible

Lisutaris

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

And yes, gathering your own group is not a solution, it’s avoiding of the problem

Actually, it is.
Friends (Friendlist) and Guilds are the solution.

For everyone else, random/pug hell awaits.
Use grp finder for having fun! *CHOO CHOOO* next stop "toxic or painful experience"

Sealish

redgreensunset wrote: »

Sealish wrote: »

I have a possible solution... but it requires a bit of a change to how dungeons (and raids) work for it to be possible. It is my opinion that Gear and Skills should be locked in while inside of a dungeon. You should no be able to change them up. Lots of games that give you more abilities than you can equip at any one time as a way to enforce your build and stop things like everyone swapping from AOE skills for trash to Single Target skills for bosses.

If this happened... then there could be a simple check when queing for a dungeon. In order to que tank, you need to have some way to taunt, either an ice staff with passive or a skill equipped. In order to heal, you need to have at least one skill equipped that can restore health to party members.

This wouldn't stop people from making fake healers and tanks completely... but it would ensure that anyone who gets into a dungeon as the role at least has the capability to perform it (however poorly).

While nowhere near as bad as OP's idea this still isn't a good one. Sorry but sometimes me or my group have to switch up skills during a dungeon to get through a boss fight, or just make things easier for us. Especially if we're testing things out, new build, new grouping structure, heck whole new dungeon or whatever.
This idea needlessly punish groups that are premade and trying things out by forcing them to start over completely if their setup doesn't work, simply because a minority can't behave.

Yeah, there is definitely give and take with this. Although I like the idea of locked skills and gear in instances, I can see why others wouldn't. I like it because I see part of the puzzle of a dungeon or raid being "I have 12 skills, how do I set them up in such a way that I can complete the entire instance, not just one segment of it" and being able to change skills removes that part. I am probably just trained to think that way by other games though and I 100% realize that this mentality is a personal preference thing.

You could still implement the skill check at que time though. If someone swaps out of the skill once the dungeon starts, at least you know that they have access to it to put back on. No who ques tank or healer could say "I don't have a Taunt/Heal"

svaboss

speaking of normal mode dungeons, you know that your 20-30min QQ time would become a few hours QQ time if not for those "fake tanks". on the other hand the person QQed as tank should have a taunt no matter what and should not die to a normal mode dung boss (that is if there is no meh that requires other group members to do something to prevent a one shoot). for vet mode dung there are no excuses to not ban a fake tank.

xXMeowMeowXx

This is a horrible idea!! That’s backed by a touch of someone with an inflated sense of self-importance.

All I see is - I want, I this, I that....

Sorry but if you have problems doing normal dungeons, you’re not an adequate dps. Since you established that, the tank may be new and trying to learn as you are.

ZOS did give you a solution, Guilds and Friends. Which would both help you, if you cannot burn down a normal dungeon solo or with one other.

1) What you’re suggesting goes against the progression of the social game.

2) It would be abused by toxic players and novice players. Creating more of a serious problem and not any solutions.

3) Takes a minimum amount of effort to join a guild and make a few acquaintances to do dailies with.

If you can wait 30 minutes to get into a dungeon.....You could also join a guild and improve your gaming experience by a lot.

The solution is to get more low-key and more sociable.

Getting bad groups is your friend to getting into a decent guild.

Working as intended.

NocturnalSonata

I personally have absolutely no problem with people queuing as a fake tank/heal in normal dungeons, if they know they can solo all normal dungeons (within reason). If they cannot and get a group of potatoes, then they are also basically a potato.

I personally think the whole dungeon queue should be separated for low lvls anyway, as there is no way a new player can enjoy anything if a high dps comes along and steamrolls the place anyway. I mean this happens if you queue legit or fake, so it seems broken anyway.

As far as vet goes... go premade or keep to your role.

CleymenZero

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

ZOS must make reports for choosing inappropriate role in dungeons, because players are abusing it

Even in normal dungeons I have problems due to fake tanks, fake healers and fake dd. I recently played DLC normal dungeon for 40 minutes (!) because I had a fake tank that died on the first boss with 2 hits and this happens very often, this is not normal! He even didn't have taunt!

Kicking is not a solution

Why should I search for a dungeon for 20-30 minutes as a dd, and fake tank (dd) finds it in 10 seconds? Let's all choose the role of the tank and chaos will begin

I suggest to make special report for inappropriate role, so every player in dungeon can report for it. If player get 10 reports he can't search for dungeon for 24 hours. This can be a 1st step as a cardinal solution

And yes, gathering your own group is not a solution, it’s avoiding of the problem

If that were the case, I'd report 99% of DPS.

I think your idea is terrible.

Tanks don't want to queue because they can dps higher the the players they'll be matched with. Same for healer.

It's a strain on your team members when you don't do your job whether you're a fake tank, fake healer or "real" DPS.

You PUG, expect nothing.

Dusk_Coven

Solo Dungeons is the best solution. Clearly some of these people just want to do their own thing on their own time so they can fake all they want in their own Solo instance.
And solo dungeons have all sorts of other benefits as well such as DPS not having to wait endlessly for the queue, making people learn all sorts of mechanics, letting people go at their own pace, not having to deal with toxic people or vote abuse, etcetera etcetera.

the1andonlyskwex

As a healer, I'm totally in favor of some official punishment for fake tanking. I'm not sure what the right punishment is, but the criteria are pretty straightforward. Fake tanks do one or more of the following:

1) Can't/won't hold aggro (on fights where holding aggro is possible)
2) Kites bosses all over the map because they need to dodge/run to avoid getting one-shotted (which drags group DPS way down because ground targeted AoE becomes useless)
3) Admits to fake tanking in chat

Agenericname

Sealish wrote: »

redgreensunset wrote: »

Sealish wrote: »

I have a possible solution... but it requires a bit of a change to how dungeons (and raids) work for it to be possible. It is my opinion that Gear and Skills should be locked in while inside of a dungeon. You should no be able to change them up. Lots of games that give you more abilities than you can equip at any one time as a way to enforce your build and stop things like everyone swapping from AOE skills for trash to Single Target skills for bosses.

If this happened... then there could be a simple check when queing for a dungeon. In order to que tank, you need to have some way to taunt, either an ice staff with passive or a skill equipped. In order to heal, you need to have at least one skill equipped that can restore health to party members.

This wouldn't stop people from making fake healers and tanks completely... but it would ensure that anyone who gets into a dungeon as the role at least has the capability to perform it (however poorly).

While nowhere near as bad as OP's idea this still isn't a good one. Sorry but sometimes me or my group have to switch up skills during a dungeon to get through a boss fight, or just make things easier for us. Especially if we're testing things out, new build, new grouping structure, heck whole new dungeon or whatever.
This idea needlessly punish groups that are premade and trying things out by forcing them to start over completely if their setup doesn't work, simply because a minority can't behave.

Yeah, there is definitely give and take with this. Although I like the idea of locked skills and gear in instances, I can see why others wouldn't. I like it because I see part of the puzzle of a dungeon or raid being "I have 12 skills, how do I set them up in such a way that I can complete the entire instance, not just one segment of it" and being able to change skills removes that part. I am probably just trained to think that way by other games though and I 100% realize that this mentality is a personal preference thing.

You could still implement the skill check at que time though. If someone swaps out of the skill once the dungeon starts, at least you know that they have access to it to put back on. No who ques tank or healer could say "I don't have a Taunt/Heal"

Many players change inside the dungeon. Many real tanks do as well. They have different sets for different dungeons. If you're using the random finder you would be locked at the beginning without ever knowing where you were going.

Many DDs already run a group heal so the check wouldn't even slow them down. If they weren't already they could slot one with a minimal loss in DPS for a faster queue.

You're free to lock your own skills for the challenge any time you'd like. I don't want mine locked though. All this would accomplish, as well as the OPs idea, is remove real tanks from the queue. Why should I be penalized for something I had no part in? My other option is just find a group and avoid all this.

When ZOS first made this change from where we could queue any role at the same time to a single role their reasoning was stated "you're explicitly saying that you can perform the role you queue for." The issue is, the people who do this don't care. It's not a deterrent at all and it's unlikely that it's ever going to be.

redgreensunset

Sealish wrote: »

redgreensunset wrote: »

Sealish wrote: »

I have a possible solution... but it requires a bit of a change to how dungeons (and raids) work for it to be possible. It is my opinion that Gear and Skills should be locked in while inside of a dungeon. You should no be able to change them up. Lots of games that give you more abilities than you can equip at any one time as a way to enforce your build and stop things like everyone swapping from AOE skills for trash to Single Target skills for bosses.

If this happened... then there could be a simple check when queing for a dungeon. In order to que tank, you need to have some way to taunt, either an ice staff with passive or a skill equipped. In order to heal, you need to have at least one skill equipped that can restore health to party members.

This wouldn't stop people from making fake healers and tanks completely... but it would ensure that anyone who gets into a dungeon as the role at least has the capability to perform it (however poorly).

While nowhere near as bad as OP's idea this still isn't a good one. Sorry but sometimes me or my group have to switch up skills during a dungeon to get through a boss fight, or just make things easier for us. Especially if we're testing things out, new build, new grouping structure, heck whole new dungeon or whatever.
This idea needlessly punish groups that are premade and trying things out by forcing them to start over completely if their setup doesn't work, simply because a minority can't behave.

Yeah, there is definitely give and take with this. Although I like the idea of locked skills and gear in instances, I can see why others wouldn't. I like it because I see part of the puzzle of a dungeon or raid being "I have 12 skills, how do I set them up in such a way that I can complete the entire instance, not just one segment of it" and being able to change skills removes that part. I am probably just trained to think that way by other games though and I 100% realize that this mentality is a personal preference thing.

You could still implement the skill check at que time though. If someone swaps out of the skill once the dungeon starts, at least you know that they have access to it to put back on. No who ques tank or healer could say "I don't have a Taunt/Heal"

That one would be fine by me. I think it'd be largely ineffective in fixing the problem but by all means.

Going back to the locking skills and the puzzle bit, see one of the things some of the people in one of my guilds, me among them, enjoy is trying out is this, that or the other combination works while doing random dungeons or pledges for no other reason than to see if we can. A lot of the time the answer ends up 'no', or 'only with extreme difficulty' and I'd rather not have to sacrifice a part of game that I and the others greatly enjoy by being locked into a combination that doesn't work and either having to start over or abandon the venture altogether.
(And people can untie their knickers, we never do this in pugs only in premades. We bother no one but each other with it.)