Punishment for inappropriate role in dungeons

Grandchamp1989

willjones1122 wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

There's such an easy system to allow flex builds while also not ruining for the group that qued correctly.
It would literally take the fake quer 1 minute to adapt to these simple rules:

Healer:
Must have atleast 2 AOE healing spells equipped

Tank:
Must have a taunt equipped and 20k health minimum (that is LOW and can easily be achieved by eating 1 food)

It would leave a huge gab for flex builts, absolutely huge while making sure the guy going in got the minimum requirements covered for a PUG run.

If people don't want to keep it that way, then it would take them another 30 seconds, at most, to change 1-2 skills on their bar back to its original set up.

But that doesn't solve the problem. If you fake as a tank you can have a taunt equipped for the check, get into the dungeon and remove it from the bar then refuse to tank. How is that any better? I don't think there is an easy answer, other than maybe screen capping the guy flagrantly running around saying "hahaha I'm a fake tank" and reporting it to ZOS. But again not sure if they will do anything as i don't think it's violating tos or breaking any laws/rules other than common courtesy and decency.

If you que as a tank and remove the only skill required: "taunt" to get you into the dungeon, then you're simply sabotaging yourself and your group. It wouldn't have any benefit.

If you want to make a flexible system you can never 100% guarantee anything. but putting 1 skill on your bar (wether a healing spell or a taunt) would mean you could fullfill the minimum requirements.

Yes people can choose not to, just as they can choose to stand still and let the other 3 clear the dungeon for them.

If you have to meet minimum requirements without being restrictive I don't see any other option than a 1 skill que check (taunt/heal). If they change it afterwards, that's on them atleast the group know they got access to it.

Xebov

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

If you have to meet minimum requirements without being restrictive I don't see any other option than a 1 skill que check (taunt/heal). If they change it afterwards, that's on them atleast the group know they got access to it.

If you start with that you get alot of issues later on.

As a Tank for example i would expect the system to check that no DD is allowed to wear sword/shield, which would eliminate PvP characters from the queue as a side effect. I also would expect that noone except the Tank is allowed to wear a frost staff. Because both cases usually mean trouble. Because, why sstop there? Such a system would simply open up a box that would sooner or later heavily limit players. ESO is way to open for this to work in the first place.

Dr_Sinister

Easy. Can't queue as a certain role unless the skill and item criteria for that specific role and is met. Once queued, you can't change your skills. Ya suck it up. This is why we can't have nice things but this ZOS will never implement a deterrent anyway.

the1andonlyskwex

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

If you que as a tank and remove the only skill required: "taunt" to get you into the dungeon, then you're simply sabotaging yourself and your group. It wouldn't have any benefit.

But this is EXACTLY what the fake tanks are doing now, except that they might not even have the skill point spent. They're queueing as tanks hoping that the properly queued DPS and healer will be able to carry them through the dungeon.

willjones1122

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

willjones1122 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I'm sure the actual implementation is harder than I'm going to make it sound, but in my mind the solution has the following steps:
1) Log combat in dungeons
2) Add a specific option to report someone for an inappropriate role when you kick them.
3) If the kick vote passes, automatically review the log for things like the number of times taunt was used, or total effective HP (accounting for mitigation) for tanks; the amount of healing done for healers, or the amount of damage done for DPS.
4) If, based on the review, someone was kicked by their group for queuing inappropriately, and was obviously not performing the role they queued for, give them a 24-hour, account-wide, ban on queuing for that role in the group finder.
5) Increase the ban duration for repeat offenses.

Who is going to review it? Think of all the false reports that the devs would have to sift through to find the one that might have actually q'd as a fake. Who sets the requirements? Does it vary by dungeon/fight mechanics/level of player or is it a standard across all? What if it's an inexperienced player who queued up fort role but was just learning to play in harder content?
I know you said it would be harder than you made it sound in your post but I'm not even sure it would be feasible from a personnel standpoint. They would have to dedicate resources (people to review the complaints) to something that really isn't an issue for them monetarily.

The review would be automated. A (reasonably simple) algorithm could do it. All ZoS need to do is define some simple heuristics for each boss fight. This would include things like minimum taunt uptime, minimum effective HP, minimum DPS, etc. Healing might be a little trickier because sometimes a group doesn't need much healing, but I'm partially relying on the vote kick mechanic to prevent reviews when someone isn't actually hurting their group. The thresholds would be set very low on purpose to avoid people complaining about how the algorithm treated them unfairly.

The goal isn't to punish people who aren't very good at their role, it's to punish people who aren't even trying.

i get that it could be automated... (Adding more strain to servers with wide spread performance issues just doesn't seem like a good idea to me but let's leave that out for now) but again you would have to set the bar so low that you could easily cheese it. For example dps. If the metric is say 20k dps then what about the new player struggling with their rotation? They can hit 20k on a test dummy but now they have to run with mechanics which they never dealt with. Group wipes, they get kicked and can't queue because they parsed 19,999k. Tank taunt uptime same way. Tank is trying to keep boss taunted doesn't realize hey adds need taunted too because he's been told just taunt the boss and hold block or he thinks "i am a tank i have to taunt everything" but he has a dps that pulls mobs away and he doesn't know about/doesn't have silver leash so spends time running down mobs trying to get them all taunted. Group wipes and he gets kicked. Taunt uptime is less than 80% on boss, sorry you can't queue as tank.
These are just some examples off the top of my head of mistakes i made when learning this game for the first time. I was lucky. I started playing when everyone was new so we were all learning together. Now... People just want to run their daily and get it over with (nothing wrong with that) so anything that gets in the way of that and it's vote kick, move on. Don't get me wrong i hate that people can queue up for roles they have no desire to play, but there really isn't a way that can make everyone play the role they queued for without a this class is this clearly defined role system. Something that would effectively end this as an ES title.

Grandchamp1989

Xebov wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

If you have to meet minimum requirements without being restrictive I don't see any other option than a 1 skill que check (taunt/heal). If they change it afterwards, that's on them atleast the group know they got access to it.

If you start with that you get alot of issues later on.

As a Tank for example i would expect the system to check that no DD is allowed to wear sword/shield, which would eliminate PvP characters from the queue as a side effect. I also would expect that noone except the Tank is allowed to wear a frost staff. Because both cases usually mean trouble. Because, why sstop there? Such a system would simply open up a box that would sooner or later heavily limit players. ESO is way to open for this to work in the first place.

But that's the thing, we have to stop there or it becomes too restrictive.

A healing spell for a healing role
a single taunt for a tank role and half HP of a proper tank (20k which is achievable with 1 food for squishy DPS)

Only on the check to tell people that's what expected of them. Anything more and it becomes too restrictive and creates a number of other issues for other players. If they change it after the que that's on them, atleast the group know they got access to the skill and they can suggest they might wanna start using it if things go sour.

I don't see it working any other way.

jdbassjr

I went into a dungeon one time and thought I was a tank but wasn't and was thrown out. It left such a poor taste in my mouth that I never went back again and you might say it made me into a confirmed solo player.

ESO does not give training classes on what is a tank, damage dealer, healer, etc and players are left to wind it as best they can. Unfortunately the other players were not so considerate much like the poster of this thread.

olda90

Next patch they will fix this

robertthebard

There sure are a lot of suggestions for ZoS to do what can already be accomplished in game. All one has to do is form their own group, and they have complete control of who is, and who isn't in it. On top of selling items, this is one of the purposes of a guild, and here we can be in 5? Then there's the friend list.

ZeroXFF

idk wrote: »

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

ZOS must make reports for choosing inappropriate role in dungeons, because players are abusing it

Zos already made a punishment available. The 15-minute penalty for when you kick someone from the group. I assume anyone who would create a thread complaining about this kicked them from the group.

They removed that years ago. You only get the penalty if you leave the group yourself.

universal_wrath

No problem as long as people fullfill there role. I don't care if tank role as dps, if they can dps properly and adequetly, I wouldn't mind that 30k+ HP. DD as tank? No problem as long as boss don't chase me all the time because there is no taunt, or "tank" is kiting out of my aoe resulting in our aoe resulting in less dps.

Imryll

Tandor wrote: »

Player judges are never a good thing in any game. To say it has potential for abuse doesn't even come close. That's quite apart from the obvious question - who gets to decide when it's a fake role, and on what criteria?

As I've said previously in such discussions - this topic was brought to you by the Campaign for the Promotion of Soloing in MMOs !

Indeed. Solo versions of dungeons would solve many problems. The trinity was imposed by players and not part of the original vision for the game. Early on ZOS even avoided calling ESO an "MMO" due to the baggage associated with the term.

Banana

Permanent account ban

xshatox

I let them be if its work. But if its not working for example DPS queued as tank and turn out a *** tank and make dungeon run more difficult I just leave. Usually I anallyze performance after first mob and if it cant perform well I just leave and queuing again.

idk

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

IMO here is a simple solution to ensure you get someone that is somewhat of a tank and healer.

To select the tank role the player has to have at minimum 3 heavy pieces of armor, must have sword & shield equipped on one of their bars with the taunt skill as an ability. If a player does not meet these requirements they cannot select tank as a role to q into content.

To select the role of healer player has to have the resto staff equipped on one of their bars and at least one ability from the resto staff line to Q as a healer.

If you Q and than go to remove your weapon that allows you to select the support role while waiting for the Q you are removed from the Q instantly. If you get into the Q you cannot swap out your support weapon and ability that allowed you to Q until you complete the dungeon or quit the dungeon.

I have seen this in other games and doing this improved the player experience in dungeons. I recommend this to ensure players don't abuse the Q to simply get into content quicker. This will decrease how fast a Q will pop for damage dealers but it will improve random dungeon runs for people who are not able to preform a group.

That doesn't work. Good tanks will tank in medium sometimes.

I'm not even a good tank and I tank vDSA in medium with alkosh on the body and backbar perfected Olori-memes. SO So far, 38.9k with 8 deaths is our best and one of em is CP 400 something. To be fair he's a console transfer and a pretty good player also but yeah, then heavy armor requirement isn't a good criteria.

Health isn't either. If you want 30k and a guy can do an amazing job with 25k health, it would be stupid to prevent that and finally, SnB is not an absolute req for tanking either. I've seen ice staff and resto backbar builds work pretty well.

It's hard to say what criteria would work but a taunt would be a good start.

A tank that isn't using the taunt from the Sword and Shield line isn't helping their group as they are not maximizing the group debuff. They are making content harder. That is why I said they need the taunt with Sword and Shield. Having that along with the debuff that is typically used on a staff really makes bosses die faster in content.

My recommendation is around improving the Qing process for dungeons and nothing to do with trials. So an adjustment could be made around the role but when Qing if you don't meet the requirements it should state what you need to Q as said role.

With 4 man dungeons, this is very minor. They are filling their basic requirement as a tank if they have and use any taunt as their primary purpose is to control the boss and strong mobs. If one expects the tank to use specific skills and weapons they should form their own group.l

DaveMoeDee

mikejezz wrote: »

Lock tanks to sword and shield problem solved.

I know that doesn't mean they use the right skills, but who wanna dps with sword and shield?

There are two bars. Not much of a problem. When I tank, I already don't have shield on my back bar. I have a staff. I'm definitely not going to have a shield on both bars for normal dungeons.

If people can have anything else on the other bar, they can just make that their dps bar and put the non-dps stuff on the shield bar, without bothering to use any taunts. People can also swap gear in the dungeon. Swap the shield for a second one handed weapon.

thorwyn

To select the tank role the player has to have at minimum 3 heavy pieces of armor, must have sword & shield equipped on one of their bars with the taunt skill as an ability. If a player does not meet these requirements they cannot select tank as a role to q into content.

May I also suggest that the tank is supposed to wear a red tabbard and an oistrich feather attached to his helmet?

Imagine a game that says "play how you like" and then hands out a checklist of requirements for entering a NORMAL dungeon. And said checklist pretty much desribes ONE way of playing a tank, ignoring all variations of it, like medium armor builds, 2 staff builds etc. Heck... you even want to pre-determine what exact taunt style they need to have slotted?

This is ridiculous. All those artificial check up systems aren't going anywhere. Kick the fake tank if he is incompetent (or if you're not competent enough to work around a fake tank) or run with guildies. But please save us from narrow minded pseudo solutions.

ganzaeso

A lot of restrictions and punitive actions suggested here by players.

I do not agree with any of the suggestions and think they would be worse than what we already have.

ZOS will not create a system where players police players. That is why there is no inspect option and you can not see each player's specific DPS.

I think many of the reporting systems would be abused by trolls and any ranking systems or additional tagging of player status would encourage elitism.

willjones1122

ganzaeso wrote: »

A lot of restrictions and punitive actions suggested here by players.
[snip]
ZOS will not create a system where players police players. That is why there is no inspect option and you can not see each player's specific DPS.
[snip]

100% this.
Besides that, this thread is just ideas for treating a symptom rather than the cause. The reason dd queue up as tanks/healers is to get shorter queue times. If you eliminate long wait times "fake" queue will probably all but disappear. Treat the cause and the symptom goes away.

VocalThought

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

ZOS must make reports for choosing inappropriate role in dungeons, because players are abusing it

Even in normal dungeons I have problems due to fake tanks, fake healers and fake dd. I recently played DLC normal dungeon for 40 minutes (!) because I had a fake tank that died on the first boss with 2 hits and this happens very often, this is not normal! He even didn't have taunt!

Kicking is not a solution

Why should I search for a dungeon for 20-30 minutes as a dd, and fake tank (dd) finds it in 10 seconds? Let's all choose the role of the tank and chaos will begin

I suggest to make special report for inappropriate role, so every player in dungeon can report for it. If player get 10 reports he can't search for dungeon for 24 hours. This can be a 1st step as a cardinal solution

And yes, gathering your own group is not a solution, it’s avoiding of the problem

It sounds like you're being punished for not knowing how to find a better squad. Maybe you could hire a tank you like as a retainer. Maybe half the gold upfront or they can get all the rice and jasmine you find.

volkeswagon

I remember we were needing a tank and got this guy with a greatsword with one taunt ability if that. He kept dying and we couldn't stop laughing how mis matched he was

Glurin

volkeswagon wrote: »

I remember we were needing a tank and got this guy with a greatsword with one taunt ability if that. He kept dying and we couldn't stop laughing how mis matched he was

You can tank with a greatsword, believe it or not. As long as you've got the "control the boss" and "don't die" parts down, it doesn't matter what you use to do it. (Obviously your tank had issues with the second requirement.)

Heck, if you can actually do the job while buck naked and bare fisted, who gives a crap? Well, other than folks who'd really like you to put some pants on for reasons unrelated to tanking.

Zer0_CooL

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

... because I had a fake tank that died on the first boss with 2 hits ...

If the tank dies its the healers fault.

Maulkin

willjones1122 wrote: »

ganzaeso wrote: »

A lot of restrictions and punitive actions suggested here by players.

None of them are good ideas.

ZOS will not create a system where players police players. That is why there is no inspect option and you can not see each player's specific DPS.

The ideas in this thread will just encourage Elitism and Trolling.

100% this.
Besides that, this thread is just ideas for treating a symptom rather than the cause. The reason dd queue up as tanks/healers is to get shorter queue times. If you eliminate long wait times "fake" queue will probably all but disappear. Treat the cause and the symptom goes away.

And how do you fix the cause when it seems 99% of the pop just wants to DD? Any suggestions.

From my POV the problem described by the OP is simply a non-existing one. The more DDs a dungeon has the faster it goes. You can 4DD all non-DLC vet dungeons without problems, just slot one HoT each and you're good to go. Fake healer? Great. Fake tank too? Amazing.

What's more of a problem to me is a group with proper tank and healer but two low-level or poor DDs that drag a 15-min dungeon run into 45 mins. And I don't care about how hard they are trying or that CP is low or that they only now learning the game... or whatever. I'm there for a daily, not to nanny anyone. So if we're talking about other players ruining the smoothness of your run (which is basically what OP is angry about) then that'd be it for me. Not fake tanks or healer, but bad DDs.

And the reason I tank less and less, and fake tank/heal more in daily queue, is because approximately 1/3 DDs in the queue are abysmal. I will quite happily "real tank" for 3 DDs who can pull upwards of 60k (still nowhere near "elite" requirements) each on a trial dummy and will make my run a breeze.

Glurin

[snip]

I'm not surprised. It's just some people overcompensating for the fake tank dilemma by adhering too strictly to the standard tank template. A tank must wear heavy armor. A tank must use one hand and shield. A tank must be class whatever the tanky class is. etc. etc.

People just get so hung up on what other people are wearing or what skills they are using or how high the DPS meter goes that they lose sight of the fundamentals.

[edited to remove quoted content]

JTD

Is a side effect of the play what you want style that ZOS is aiming (and failing) for. Is it annoying at times? Yes, vUG with a fake healer who is not debuffing, has one heal and not throwing synergies out.... it's annoying. But then again, do you really need that healer in ESO? Do you need that tank for those TANKBUSTERS (ff14) that are designed to one shot your tank?

Glurin

Maulkin wrote: »

willjones1122 wrote: »

ganzaeso wrote: »

A lot of restrictions and punitive actions suggested here by players.

None of them are good ideas.

ZOS will not create a system where players police players. That is why there is no inspect option and you can not see each player's specific DPS.

The ideas in this thread will just encourage Elitism and Trolling.

100% this.
Besides that, this thread is just ideas for treating a symptom rather than the cause. The reason dd queue up as tanks/healers is to get shorter queue times. If you eliminate long wait times "fake" queue will probably all but disappear. Treat the cause and the symptom goes away.

And how do you fix the cause when it seems 99% of the pop just wants to DD? Any suggestions.

The real solution would require an attitude shift among the entire gaming community. Less focus on DPS meters and speed runs, more on socializing and just having fun.

Maulkin

Glurin wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

willjones1122 wrote: »

ganzaeso wrote: »

A lot of restrictions and punitive actions suggested here by players.

None of them are good ideas.

ZOS will not create a system where players police players. That is why there is no inspect option and you can not see each player's specific DPS.

The ideas in this thread will just encourage Elitism and Trolling.

100% this.
Besides that, this thread is just ideas for treating a symptom rather than the cause. The reason dd queue up as tanks/healers is to get shorter queue times. If you eliminate long wait times "fake" queue will probably all but disappear. Treat the cause and the symptom goes away.

And how do you fix the cause when it seems 99% of the pop just wants to DD? Any suggestions.

The real solution would require an attitude shift among the entire gaming community. Less focus on DPS meters and speed runs, more on socializing and just having fun.

I also like unicorns and tooth fairies and gold pots at the end of rainbows... but back in the real world.

I'm not doing a dungeon for the 100th time to either socialise or for fun. It's because I'm grinding undaunted/crystals/gear for my 15th alt or whatever and it's the boring grind I have to do so that I can socialise and have fun later. So the most "fun" you or anyone can make that dungeon run for me, is to make the dps meters hit red. And if they can't, then they're part of the problem for me.

ruengdet2515

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

... because I had a fake tank that died on the first boss with 2 hits ...

If the tank dies its the healers fault.

IF healer dies its ??? fault.

IF dd dies its ??? fault.

IF group wipe its ??? fault.

willjones1122

Maulkin wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

willjones1122 wrote: »

ganzaeso wrote: »

A lot of restrictions and punitive actions suggested here by players.

None of them are good ideas.

ZOS will not create a system where players police players. That is why there is no inspect option and you can not see each player's specific DPS.

The ideas in this thread will just encourage Elitism and Trolling.

100% this.
Besides that, this thread is just ideas for treating a symptom rather than the cause. The reason dd queue up as tanks/healers is to get shorter queue times. If you eliminate long wait times "fake" queue will probably all but disappear. Treat the cause and the symptom goes away.

And how do you fix the cause when it seems 99% of the pop just wants to DD? Any suggestions.

The real solution would require an attitude shift among the entire gaming community. Less focus on DPS meters and speed runs, more on socializing and just having fun.

I also like unicorns and tooth fairies and gold pots at the end of rainbows... but back in the real world.

I'm not doing a dungeon for the 100th time to either socialise or for fun. It's because I'm grinding undaunted/crystals/gear for my 15th alt or whatever and it's the boring grind I have to do so that I can socialise and have fun later. So the most "fun" you or anyone can make that dungeon run for me, is to make the dps meters hit red. And if they can't, then they're part of the problem for me.

Then don't pug. Or leave the group. You don't have to nanny. But banning someone from queueing for not meeting your standards isn't fair to new players. You don't have time to waste, i get that. It's valid.
You asked me how to fix the system when everybody wants to dps? There are a number of ways, not all of them good. But off the top of my head:
1. Add a mentor system. Allow guilds or individuals that know the mechanics and are willing to "nanny" new players through content. Not carries, but actual runs where they explain the fights, help with questions etc. So that new players can actually learn. Give those individuals a reward for doing so.(maybe some extra of those mats you're grinding for your umpteenth alt) And it's great PR for the guilds themselves as they get access to new players who may have been too afraid to join a guild not knowing the game as well as they "should." it should be a separate queue and probably go along with option 2
2. Create an additional queue that removes the role requirement on the dungeon finder. 4 people queue. 4 people go.
3. Rebalance the entire system to make tanks and healers not only needed in that content, but engaging and fun.