Punishment for inappropriate role in dungeons

Xebov

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

If the tank dies its the healers fault.

Im a tank. If i die at least half of the times its my fault because i messed something up.

Protossyder

Reasons to fake queue:

1. Shorter waiting time for you and for the other 3 players. (This is by far the weakest point, but apparently it's a big deal for all the crybaby casuals)
2. The classic group setup is not essential. For normal dungeons and even most non-dlc vet dungeons you neither need a healer nor a tank. Most attacks can be easily blocked (without sword and shield), shielded, out-healed (by yourself) or avoided by dodging. The only skill one of the player should slot is elemental drain and that's it. Don't panic and start kiting if you get aggro, just stand still.
3. Most "DDs" suck. The only thing carrying a group through a dungeon is DPS. If you queue as DD, you'll get one <20k dps DD, a healer whose healing is redundant and who doesn't provide buffs/debuffs anyways and a tank who barely holds aggro. And that's okay if you have plenty of time, but you can improve those runs by simply queueing as healer or tank and atleast get two <20k dps DDs

WikileaksEU

It depends, really. Normal dungeons are so easy if you have a proper build, you don't need a tank or a healer, even in DLC normal dungeons. Many people play 4 dd in Vet dungeons. Some solo vet dungeons.

I often pick tank role when i am dd as otherwise it will take 20 min or more to get in a dungeon, when i pick tank it takes 1 second. I never pick tank role in vet dungeon queue though, only in normal. Though, I have no problem self sustaining and also I can kill very fast. So it all depends on your build and how well you play it.

Tsar_Gekkou

A good start to making this problem not as painful is to remove the 15-minute queue timer from when you enter a dungeon. That way, if some fake tank mongoloid and its friend queue together so the faker can't be kicked, I can leave immediately and not have 15 minutes of my time stolen as punishment for using the queue finder and getting unlucky by getting queued with a fake tank that can't tank or do decent damage. You can just stand at the entrance and ask for the group to kick you so you don't get the timer, but they usually don't.

Xen0rm

The current vote kick is good enough. Fake tank in normal non-dlc dungeon is not always a show stopper.

If group is good, we often had 3dd runs, sometimes 4dd run in easy vet dungeons.

If team is not comfortable with it, just vote kick, end of the story.

Tigerseye

Starlock wrote: »

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

And yes, gathering your own group is not a solution, it’s avoiding of the problem

It is a solution. Especially when suggestions like yours to fix the problem will introduce new problems. Notably, the inevitable abuse of any such system. Which already happens with the vote-to-kick system as it is.

I appreciate it could be abused, if you did what the OP suggests, but making your own group should be the solution to not wanting to bother with a real tank.

It should not be the solution to the fact that people are, habitually, lying about their role to skip the queue.

I have accidentally queued as tank, as DPS, when I had been running in a guild group previously and had forgot to reset my role to the correct one.

But, when I realised my mistake (in a DLC vet dungeon!) I apologised profusely and left.

I didn't turn it into a hobby.

Probably, the best solution would be to ensure that people have a certain number of tanking skills learnt and that at least some of those skills are on their bars before they can queue as tank.

Including taunts.

Obviously, how many of these skills they would need to have, to qualify, would be dependent on level.

You could do the same type of thing with healers and DPS.

LuxiasCaelum13

Lots of people saying "form your own group" like if this is a solution, but it's not. It's a feature of the game, it's something you can do, but it's not a fix for the fake role problem. If you form a group to avoid getting queued with fake tanks you are not fixing the issue, you are only ignoring it. It's like putting a bandage to heal a stab, you won't be healed at all, but at least you won't walk away with a bleeding hole.

Tigerseye

Also, WoW gives (or did when I played, anyway) extra rewards to tanks and healers, especially at quieter times.

Meaning the queues were generally shorter than here, for DD, as people were busy farming those extra rewards.

WoW also didn't seem to have a significant problem with fake tanks and healers queueing.

Not sure why not(?), but the reason for that might be worth looking into.

Might have just been because only a few classes were able to be (or queue as) tanks and they could switch roles (for free!) at will.

So, for example, a frost DK could enable Blood Presence at any time and you often heard the sound of them doing that, just after you entered the dungeon.

5cript

funnily when the group struggles i switch from heal to DD and suddenly it works. (vet)

fake xy in normal is a non-issue. kick if need be, but if you're above cp 300, id think about self improvement too.

Tigerseye

5cript wrote: »

funnily when the group struggles i switch from heal to DD and suddenly it works. (vet)

fake xy in normal is a non-issue. kick if need be, but if you're above cp 300, id think about self improvement too.

It's not always a non-issue, even in non-DLC normals, if the entire group is lower level, lacking CP and/or inexperienced.

Maulkin

willjones1122 wrote: »

Then don't pug. Or leave the group. You don't have to nanny. But banning someone from queueing for not meeting your standards isn't fair to new players. You don't have time to waste, i get that. It's valid.

First off I didn't suggest banning anyone at all, I think you've got me confused with OP. Players banning players is obviously a no-no for multitudes of reasons that shouldn't even have to be explained. I was offering a different counterpoint, one where for some players a fake tank/healer is a blessing and not a curse. One where the real curse are the bad DDs that litter the grouping tool.

As for "don't pug or leave the group", well the first one requires finding people that are happy to go through the grind with you and it's not always the case. Needs must sometimes. The latter is indeed an option you have, and do sometimes take. The very same options however are available to OP when he gets aggravated by fake tanks/healers. Don't pug or leave, instead of looking to ban people.

That response basically says "live with it" and I'm ok with that, but similarly bad DDs have to live with fake tanks/healers sometimes. Because if they were capable, +80k dps DDs then they wouldn't care a jot about the fake healers or tanks. In fact they would prefer it too.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

IDK, maybe try actually chatting to people before you go in a dungeon with them?

All The Best

robertthebard

Maulkin wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

willjones1122 wrote: »

ganzaeso wrote: »

A lot of restrictions and punitive actions suggested here by players.

None of them are good ideas.

ZOS will not create a system where players police players. That is why there is no inspect option and you can not see each player's specific DPS.

The ideas in this thread will just encourage Elitism and Trolling.

100% this.
Besides that, this thread is just ideas for treating a symptom rather than the cause. The reason dd queue up as tanks/healers is to get shorter queue times. If you eliminate long wait times "fake" queue will probably all but disappear. Treat the cause and the symptom goes away.

And how do you fix the cause when it seems 99% of the pop just wants to DD? Any suggestions.

The real solution would require an attitude shift among the entire gaming community. Less focus on DPS meters and speed runs, more on socializing and just having fun.

I also like unicorns and tooth fairies and gold pots at the end of rainbows... but back in the real world.

I'm not doing a dungeon for the 100th time to either socialise or for fun. It's because I'm grinding undaunted/crystals/gear for my 15th alt or whatever and it's the boring grind I have to do so that I can socialise and have fun later. So the most "fun" you or anyone can make that dungeon run for me, is to make the dps meters hit red. And if they can't, then they're part of the problem for me.

Then the real solution for you is to build a static team, and go for it. That is, at the end of the day, what real professionals do. Whether it's CSGO or (insert MMO with gear grind here), or Overwatch. You'll notice that none of those pro teams are doing PUGs for competitions, yes? So from where I'm sitting, you're part of the problem. You use a tool that is designed at it's core to put random people together for group content, complaining that you get random people for group content. It boggles the mind, doesn't it?

Maulkin

robertthebard wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

willjones1122 wrote: »

ganzaeso wrote: »

A lot of restrictions and punitive actions suggested here by players.

None of them are good ideas.

ZOS will not create a system where players police players. That is why there is no inspect option and you can not see each player's specific DPS.

The ideas in this thread will just encourage Elitism and Trolling.

100% this.
Besides that, this thread is just ideas for treating a symptom rather than the cause. The reason dd queue up as tanks/healers is to get shorter queue times. If you eliminate long wait times "fake" queue will probably all but disappear. Treat the cause and the symptom goes away.

And how do you fix the cause when it seems 99% of the pop just wants to DD? Any suggestions.

The real solution would require an attitude shift among the entire gaming community. Less focus on DPS meters and speed runs, more on socializing and just having fun.

I also like unicorns and tooth fairies and gold pots at the end of rainbows... but back in the real world.

I'm not doing a dungeon for the 100th time to either socialise or for fun. It's because I'm grinding undaunted/crystals/gear for my 15th alt or whatever and it's the boring grind I have to do so that I can socialise and have fun later. So the most "fun" you or anyone can make that dungeon run for me, is to make the dps meters hit red. And if they can't, then they're part of the problem for me.

Then the real solution for you is to build a static team, and go for it. That is, at the end of the day, what real professionals do. Whether it's CSGO or (insert MMO with gear grind here), or Overwatch. You'll notice that none of those pro teams are doing PUGs for competitions, yes?So from where I'm sitting, you're part of the problem. You use a tool that is designed at it's core to put random people together for group content, complaining that you get random people for group content. It boggles the mind, doesn't it?

What are you even talking about, amigo? What "analogy" is this?

Daily pledges are not competitions. ESO doesn't even have competitions. And ranked PvE content, which is only Arenas and Trials, doesn't even have a group queue. And of course I won't go with randoms into that, especially not if I'm trying to push score. There is nothing even remotely relevant between closed PvP competitions (Leagues and Tournaments) in other games and daily pledges in ESO, for you to even try to draw an analogy between the two. Oh and plenty of pros solo queue ranked (i.e. competitive) games in CSGO and OW. I know, because I watch it with my own eyes on Twitch.

A random grouping tool will indeed yield you random results. Sometimes good players, sometimes bad players. But only bad players will complain about fake tanks/healers. Their options are: leave, try kick, group with friends or git gud. It does indeed boggle the mind how some people go into this random grouping tool and want to ban the people that are trying to make the dungeon run quicker. But of course that's not me.

BeamsForDemacia

For normal non dlc dungeons u definitely need no tank otherwise something is wrong ,
For vet dungeons I also want a tank cuz it’s just more comfortable and safe/easy ( is it really needed ? No if dds can dodge )
For normal non dlc dungeons kinda depends tank is not really needed here too u just need any heal/shield ability probably

robertthebard

Maulkin wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

willjones1122 wrote: »

ganzaeso wrote: »

A lot of restrictions and punitive actions suggested here by players.

None of them are good ideas.

ZOS will not create a system where players police players. That is why there is no inspect option and you can not see each player's specific DPS.

The ideas in this thread will just encourage Elitism and Trolling.

100% this.
Besides that, this thread is just ideas for treating a symptom rather than the cause. The reason dd queue up as tanks/healers is to get shorter queue times. If you eliminate long wait times "fake" queue will probably all but disappear. Treat the cause and the symptom goes away.

And how do you fix the cause when it seems 99% of the pop just wants to DD? Any suggestions.

The real solution would require an attitude shift among the entire gaming community. Less focus on DPS meters and speed runs, more on socializing and just having fun.

I also like unicorns and tooth fairies and gold pots at the end of rainbows... but back in the real world.

I'm not doing a dungeon for the 100th time to either socialise or for fun. It's because I'm grinding undaunted/crystals/gear for my 15th alt or whatever and it's the boring grind I have to do so that I can socialise and have fun later. So the most "fun" you or anyone can make that dungeon run for me, is to make the dps meters hit red. And if they can't, then they're part of the problem for me.

Then the real solution for you is to build a static team, and go for it. That is, at the end of the day, what real professionals do. Whether it's CSGO or (insert MMO with gear grind here), or Overwatch. You'll notice that none of those pro teams are doing PUGs for competitions, yes?So from where I'm sitting, you're part of the problem. You use a tool that is designed at it's core to put random people together for group content, complaining that you get random people for group content. It boggles the mind, doesn't it?

What are you even talking about, amigo? What "analogy" is this?

Daily pledges are not competitions. ESO doesn't even have competitions. And ranked PvE content, which is only Arenas and Trials, doesn't even have a group queue. And of course I won't go with randoms into that, especially not if I'm trying to push score. There is nothing even remotely relevant between closed PvP competitions (Leagues and Tournaments) in other games and daily pledges in this MMO, for you to even try to draw an analogy between them. Oh and plenty of pros solo queue ranked (i.e. competitive) games in CSGO and OW. I know, because I watch it with my own eyes on Twitch.

A random grouping tool will indeed yield you random results. Sometimes good players, sometimes bad players. But only bad players will complain about fake tanks/healers. Their options are: leave, try kick, group with friends or git gud. It does indeed boggle the mind how some people go into this random grouping tool and want to ban the people that are trying to make the dungeon run quicker. But of course that's not me.

So there's no epeen competition on who can do the most damage on training dummies? We are playing different games, aren't we? "DPS must parse this on a training dummy to be acceptable". How many posts are we going to find similar to this in this thread alone? If there's no "competition", why is "push score" a thing? You see, players do see these aspects of PvE as a competition. That's why they complain when a random group isn't good enough. The solution is, as you say, at their fingertips, but it's easier for them to make ZoS do the work. Maybe they don't have enough friends, or aren't in a guild, or are in a guild that won't run with them?

I mean, I'm a solo player because I'm subject to play for a month or two, and then disappear for a year. It's hard to stay in guilds given that, and I'm not blaming anyone for that but myself. It's who I am, and what I do, and it's my fault if I can't build a static team for things like this. However, over the course of my MMO "career", I have been a progression raider, but we had static teams, and a pool of alternates to pull from when both teams were missing players/roles for content. If I could get hardcore into that here, I'd do the same thing. The OP is an example of exactly why. If I'm going for all the marbles, I want to make sure my team is up to the task, and the only way to assure that is to assemble that team, and go for it. We agree that it's ridiculous to expect a tool that places random players together to produce ideal results every time, and ZoS doesn't have to lift a finger to fix this issue, since it's well within the control of the players to do so.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

This is why I always play as a true tank in group content.

I'm effectively immune to fake tanks, because I am the tank. And if I am there, the tank is real. I'm awful at healer/DD roles!

For me the issue is DD players refusing to listen to basic advice such as "You can cast abilities between light attacks" and "Snipe is not the only skill".

The weirdest incident I had was a DD who was insisting that they had to use S&B because all other weapon types lagged for them. Naturally they used the taunt because "stab = damage tho". In the end I just let them tank it until they realised that they were not going to clear without me doing my intended role.

No need to kick. But a tough lesson? Works much better. At the end of the dungeon their daggers started working again. Like a miracle, I guess.

Orphium

Time. It’s all about time. I’m a +500CP dd. I recently leveled my first alt. Without fake tank or healer, so with a proper group, run takes 40 mins to complete let’s say fungal grotto 1. With a faker, 7min. I root for fakers to be in my party. In my opinion, if you can solo it no problem, fake away. Then there are two groups of “other players”. The ones like me who are happy because it won’t be a pain and take forever, and the others who will complain that you soloed everything, leaving no “fun” to be had. My answer is always the same. “You’ll have tons of time to do and learn proper dungeons at CP 160 and the vet modes and pledges. There’s barely anything to be learned in normal. Enjoy the sightseeing and spamming light attacks while you can. You’ll soon understand this”.
As for fake tanks or heals in Vet mode, faking is inadmissible and tbh, I can’t recall one instance of this ever happening without being vote kicked in the first boss.

Maulkin

robertthebard wrote: »

So there's no epeen competition on who can do the most damage on training dummies? We are playing different games, aren't we? "DPS must parse this on a training dummy to be acceptable". How many posts are we going to find similar to this in this thread alone? If there's no "competition", why is "push score" a thing? You see, players do see these aspects of PvE as a competition.

Sigh. "As a competition" and competitions are different things. By competitions, we mean organised events or contests. Like the CSGO tournaments or Overwatch World Cup etc. Because that's where people go with fixed teams, which is what you were saying. ESO doesn't have competitions. If you think it does, we are indeed playing different games and you can stop reading here. Now outside of competitions, even in OW and CSGO there is still competitive play. People call it ranked play because people get a rank. Professionals solo queue into ranked play all the time. ESO has no ranks (in PvE at least) only leaderboards. Hence "push score". And there is no grouping tool for leaderboard content in ESO. Therefore no analogy can be drawn between daily pledges and competitions, end of story.

At least we agree there is nothing there for ZOS to fix. Certainly not banning people. If you don't like the people you get from the random tool, leave and come back with friends. Simples.

Gundug

To me, the real issue in relying on the group finder is that by forcing group members into specific roles, the group finder implies to players that the group will have the tools needed for a successful completion. When this fails, frustration results.

I would suggest that a possible solution would be an additional queue that manages player expectations. By adding a “wildcard” queue that has no role restrictions, players would be able to form up the no-wait quick group they want with the understanding that there is no guarantee anyone will be competent. This could leave the standard queues for those who actually intend to fulfill specified roles.

Kalantris

As much as I would love to hate those fake tanks and fake healers as a person, who plays both a tank and a healer I have to agree we're completely useless in non-DLC dungeons. The best thing I can do as a tank is pulling trash into the pile. The best thing I can do as a healer is buffing the team to speed things up a little and manage massive trash pulls (usually the standard boss to boss mechanic).

What I always do when I enter such a dungeon from a random queue is ask the team, whether I should switch to DPS gear and just speed things up. When I'm tanking I always tell the healer to just DPS, as I can easily heal on my tank. Most people carry alternative sets and bars for solo content anyway.

Best regards,
Kalantris

Raudgrani

For vet content (mainly DLC) you usually need a tank. People who solo queue as tank for these, have no place in this game whatsoever according to me. It's a very rude and stupid thing to do.

As for healers. Yes. They are nice. But then again, for MOST vet DLC dungeons are "nice to have", but that's about it. They really are not needed most of the time imho. Me and two friends queue every other day as dd/"fake healer"/real (and very good) tank. Tank is doing a great job healing us, and so far no one - ever - complained about our group constellation. On the contrary, quite a few have added us as friends and such. If we ever feel a healer is needed (not too bad in Frostvault for example), I can use my "real healer".

My two main DD's have either Ritual of Retribution as "support heals", or Echoing Vigor - other DD also have support heals. There are few (if any) deaths at all in our group finder groups. Yes, we do have a "fake (high DPS) healer" - but we are still responsible and, and it works very well every single time. No death runs are not rare at all, and people go "GG!" all the time. None ever complained, and we've never failed.

robertthebard

Maulkin wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

So there's no epeen competition on who can do the most damage on training dummies? We are playing different games, aren't we? "DPS must parse this on a training dummy to be acceptable". How many posts are we going to find similar to this in this thread alone? If there's no "competition", why is "push score" a thing? You see, players do see these aspects of PvE as a competition.

Sigh. "As a competition" and competitions are different things. By competitions, we mean organised events or contests. Like the CSGO tournaments or Overwatch World Cup etc. Because that's where people go with fixed teams, which is what you were saying. ESO doesn't have competitions. If you think it does, we are indeed playing different games and you can stop reading here. Now outside of competitions, even in OW and CSGO there is still competitive play. People call it ranked play because people get a rank. Professionals solo queue into ranked play all the time. ESO has no ranks (in PvE at least) only leaderboards. Hence "push score". And there is no grouping tool for leaderboard content in ESO. Therefore no analogy can be drawn between daily pledges and competitions, end of story.

At least we agree there is nothing there for ZOS to fix. Certainly not banning people. If you don't like the people you get from the random tool, leave and come back with friends. Simples.

The problem with the "as a competition" to "actual competition" comparison is that there are people that don't differentiate. The only PvP in DDO is brawling pits and duels, and yet, you'd think they were playing Overwatch, the way they carry on about x class out dpsing/killing y class in cooperative quests. It's all about finishing the quest, but there are still players that view it as if they're going to die and lose all their stuff if someone outperforms them in a quest. This isn't limited to just a few games, it's a prevalent attitude across the industry, and it's why people want dps meters and the like, so they can "beat" other players.

ZOS_Lunar

Greetings everyone! We've removed some posts from this thread for violating our rules on baiting and bashing.

While we completely understand everyone has their own opinions, thoughts, feelings and even frustrations, we want the forums to be a civil and constructive platform for the game and it's community as a whole. Thank you for your understanding, and please keep the Community Rules in mind when posting on the forums.

kylewwefan

Give em das boot. What other punishment is needed?

Maulkin

Raudgrani wrote: »

For vet content (mainly DLC) you usually need a tank. People who solo queue as tank for these, have no place in this game whatsoever according to me. It's a very rude and stupid thing to do.

What's wrong with solo queuing as a tank for vet DLCs? You mean queue as fake tank?

I've yet to see a fake tank for vet DLCs to be honest. Very rarely you'll get a fake healer, but never really a tank. Simply because fake queuing as a tank for vet DLCs doesn't make the dungeon quicker it makes it slower, if not impossible to do. Instead of DPSing everyone has to instead dodge attacks all the time since most of them are practically one-shots to DDs.

As for non-DLC vets, most don't need a tank with minor exceptions.There's even videos of people doing solo hard modes on those ffs. And ok that is not for everyone, but 4 competent DDs can certainly handle things and burn bosses down pretty fast there. Otherwise they are not competent DDs.

the1andonlyskwex

All you people saying that 3-4 DDs can do dungeons without a tank are clearly not used to using the dungeon finder (or your personal DPS is high enough to trivialize content solo).

A group with people who are at least trying to fulfill their designated roles can get away with MUCH lower individual skill levels than a group where people are all trying to DPS. Sure, 3 good DDs may be fine in a vet dungeon, but 3 mediocre DDs and a mediocre healer will wipe constantly. On the other hand, 2 mediocre DDs, a mediocre tank, and a mediocre healer will be (slow but) fine.

All that's needed is a much more aggressive queue ban for people who have a history of queueing for, and getting kicked from, roles that they're OBVIOUSLY not even trying to fulfill.

Foefaller

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

... because I had a fake tank that died on the first boss with 2 hits ...

If the tank dies its the healers fault.

Healer can't save the tank if they're losing 60%+ of their health on the boss' LAs and aren't blocking/dodging the 1-shots.

BXR_Lonestar

Punishing fake tanks/fake healers is not the answer either because it is simply going to exacerbate the problem. The reason people do it is because there aren't enough tanks and healers in the pool to matchmake groups to do content with. This means DPS players have a much longer loading time when queing. If they were punished for fake tanking and fake healing, que times would just be longer because you haven't solved a core issue - not enough players playing support.

Maulkin

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

A group with people who are at least trying to fulfill their designated roles can get away with MUCH lower individual skill levels than a group where people are all trying to DPS. Sure, 3 good DDs may be fine in a vet dungeon, but 3 mediocre DDs and a mediocre healer will wipe constantly. On the other hand, 2 mediocre DDs, a mediocre tank, and a mediocre healer will be (slow but) fine.

Don't think anyone disagrees with that. But in my experience, the majority of players who fake queue are players who trivialise the content and therefore make the whole run go quicker. They are basically players who are good enough to "carry" if the rest of the group was not good enough. Players fake queuing and expecting a carry (like a low-cp DD queuing as tank) is the exception to the rule, as they are at very high risk being kicked if the group is not good enough to carry them.

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

All that's needed is a much more aggressive queue ban for people who have a history of queueing for, and getting kicked from, roles that they're OBVIOUSLY not even trying to fulfill.

That is neither needed nor will it ever be added, thankfully. People kick others from dungeons for all sorts of reasons. No need to extend the trolling into queue bans.