Punishment for inappropriate role in dungeons

kojou

The only reason you would even want a tank on a normal dungeon is to hold the boss still and gather trash. In general you can do all normal dungeons with 4 DDs (assuming that at least one isn't a potato). I would actually rather have a fake tank in normal dungeons because it will go faster.

bharathitman

The definition of inappropriate role depends on the context, if I as a DD fake queue as a tank and I don't do any dps nor taunt the boss then yes, it's inappropriate. But if I carry the group and help them clear content much faster than they are used to then no, it's not inappropriate. The other day I wanted to farm a lead from nDC2 and I had to do it around 13 times to get the lead, I always queued as a tank and with my thrassian stranglers managed to get 75-85% of the group dps every single run. Most of the time the other players were low level players, if I had queued as an actual tank then most of the runs would have taken 20+ minutes at the very least, and I still could find people constantly dying at the Netch boss that reflects attacks and the Dwemer ad stack just before the final boss.With thrassian stranglers, it only took me 7-9 minutes for a single run.

Yes, I could have solo'ed the dungeon and I did it a couple of times, but then I figured I could just easily help other players through the dungeon as many were farming their leads, nDC2 can be quite frustrating for newbies

srfrogg23

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

ZOS must make reports for choosing inappropriate role in dungeons, because players are abusing it

Even in normal dungeons I have problems due to fake tanks, fake healers and fake dd. I recently played DLC normal dungeon for 40 minutes (!) because I had a fake tank that died on the first boss with 2 hits and this happens very often, this is not normal! He even didn't have taunt!

Kicking is not a solution

Why should I search for a dungeon for 20-30 minutes as a dd, and fake tank (dd) finds it in 10 seconds? Let's all choose the role of the tank and chaos will begin

I suggest to make special report for inappropriate role, so every player in dungeon can report for it. If player get 10 reports he can't search for dungeon for 24 hours. This can be a 1st step as a cardinal solution

And yes, gathering your own group is not a solution, it’s avoiding of the problem

I feel like the problem for Zos is having to investigate every report to make sure it was actually an "abuse" and not just someone being bad at the game. The report function for anything in these games also tends to be heavily abused by people who get mad and want to use the system to punish other players for whatever reason.

DrSlaughtr

OPs solution isn't good and honestly still wouldn't work. But fake tanks and healers are an issue. It's kind of elitist to say "well just do premades" as this isn't always an option for everyone. And voting doesn't always work because of the faker has one friend in the group, or one of the group members isn't paying attention to the voting, the whole thing fails and you're stuck with the person. At that point you can either leave or just stand there (which will probably end in you getting kicked), both of which punishes YOU with a penalty.

I don't know what a good solution would be. I know queuing on a DD sucks. Sometimes you just want to get your random daily. Sometimes you're just bored and don't want to sit in a queue for 40 minutes. ZOS has done a bad job of pushing everyone to use all three roles in a group. The game is very damage centric and if you can kill stuff fast enough, neither support role is necessary.

Maybe leaving a group shouldn't cause a penalty, so if you get a fake tank or healer you can dip and requeue immediately. But I know that the penalty for that situation exists for a reason, so it's not a great solution. But as someone who mostly runs support (and mostly tanks) I hate that much of this game is just downright easier without a healer. Like ridiculously easier. For example, Blackrose Prison. I've progged that with two healers and couldn't complete it but replaced that healer with one decent DD and it was stupid how much easier it was to complete.

Anyway, kinda went off on a tangent. Other than removing the penalty for leaving a group I cannot think of another way to reduce fake support but it would be nice as it's kind of annoying to queue into a normal DLC dungeon with a fake healer and I end up having to do both jobs because they can't stay alive and all I wanted was a quick experience boost to morph a skill. And I'm on console so there's no easy switch to cycle through different setups.

willjones1122

Maulkin wrote: »

willjones1122 wrote: »

Then don't pug. Or leave the group. You don't have to nanny. But banning someone from queueing for not meeting your standards isn't fair to new players. You don't have time to waste, i get that. It's valid.

First off I didn't suggest banning anyone at all, I think you've got me confused with OP. Players banning players is obviously a no-no for multitudes of reasons that shouldn't even have to be explained. I was offering a different counterpoint, one where for some players a fake tank/healer is a blessing and not a curse. One where the real curse are the bad DDs that litter the grouping tool.

As for "don't pug or leave the group", well the first one requires finding people that are happy to go through the grind with you and it's not always the case. Needs must sometimes. The latter is indeed an option you have, and do sometimes take. The very same options however are available to OP when he gets aggravated by fake tanks/healers. Don't pug or leave, instead of looking to ban people.

That response basically says "live with it" and I'm ok with that, but similarly bad DDs have to live with fake tanks/healers sometimes. Because if they were capable, +80k dps DDs then they wouldn't care a jot about the fake healers or tanks. In fact they would prefer it too.

Sorry if I misunderstood your original intent. My argument is entirely about being against a punishment for "fake" queueing as it can/will be abused. Especially against newer or less skilled players who are simply trying to experience content.

seerevaloc

1 tank + 3 dd (each 80k) = dungeon is way much faster despite your claims @Maulkin
for randoms, I can't say anything. zos punishing those who solely rely on solo-queue.

Now Maelstrom Weapons also dropping to everyone.
I don't see why anyone over 300CP do 10-15k dps anymore.
spamming spammable will pull you 30k alone.

Maulkin

seerevaloc wrote: »

1 tank + 3 dd (each 80k) = dungeon is way much faster despite your claims @Maulkin

Vet dungeon, perhaps depending on the dungeon. Normal dungeon, that's a hard no.

the1andonlyskwex

As a healer, the "problem" I want solved isn't long queues, it's getting put into groups where the "tank" is a terrible DPS player who is a detriment to the group.

Punishing fake tanks will absolutely solve my problem, because my problem is having to deal with fake tanks, not waiting in long queues.

Additionally, to the people saying that fake tanks actually help because they bring good DPS: you must be examples of the small minority of fake tanks that are "good", because my experience is totally different. Most of the fake tanks I encounter do mediocre to poor DPS and are an overall detriment to content completion. Whatever DPS they bring is insufficient to offset DPS lost due to bosses getting kited out of AoE or other DPS getting one-shotted.

the1andonlyskwex

Also, the majority of fake tanks I encounter aren't just bad, they openly admit to being fakes when asked to taunt or hold bosses in place.

Muizer

My humble opinion. Game would be better if it wasn't geared towards silly stereotypical roles.

satanio

No way.

hafgood

To all those arguing that some.kind of check could be done at the point of queuing - how do you differentiate between a premade group and an activity finder group. Both are going through the activity finder to the dungeon.

A premade group of 4 friends may well have a fake tank and fake healer in but they set the roles because they want to do a daily random and you have to do those through the activity finder. They know they are fake roles, are comfortable with the fake roles because they are 4 friends queuing up together.

However, the check then says oh no that tank is fake, can't come in, oh wait that healer is fake as well so he can't come in either! This would happen and then the premade group can't do what they want to do even though they queued up as a premade.

Get real, you want to be sure you have a tank and a healer play in a premade group. You PUG at your own risk.

DrSlaughtr

Like I said, you should be able to leave a dungeon without a penalty. If I get stuck with a fake tank or a fake healer and voting to kick doesn't work I shouldn't get penalized for not wanting to spend 45 minutes in Spindleclutch II.

the1andonlyskwex

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Like I said, you should be able to leave a dungeon without a penalty. If I get stuck with a fake tank or a fake healer and voting to kick doesn't work I shouldn't get penalized for not wanting to spend 45 minutes in Spindleclutch II.

That's not really an option though because anyone that queues as a tank can just drop and requeue every time a group doesn't perfectly meet their expectations. The 15 minute penalty forces them to balance those 15 minutes against the extra 5-10 minutes it might take to do a dungeon with an imperfect group.

DrSlaughtr

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Like I said, you should be able to leave a dungeon without a penalty. If I get stuck with a fake tank or a fake healer and voting to kick doesn't work I shouldn't get penalized for not wanting to spend 45 minutes in Spindleclutch II.

That's not really an option though because anyone that queues as a tank can just drop and requeue every time a group doesn't perfectly meet their expectations. The 15 minute penalty forces them to balance those 15 minutes against the extra 5-10 minutes it might take to do a dungeon with an imperfect group.

When support drops or DCs or is voted out you get a replacement pretty quick. I shouldn't get punished because ZOS can't balance the need for support throughout the game.

Dusk_Coven

Trying to figure out a system to enforce appropriate role queuing while safeguarding it from abuse or circumvention is a waste of time. Just make solo mode dungeons.
When people are tired of dealing with fakes, they can go solo.
When fakes get tired of waiting for the queue, they can go solo too. Thus leaving the group finder and making the remaining people in the group finder more likely to actually get a proper team.

The amount of fake roles and people zooming ahead in dungeons is a reflection of the demand for Solo dungeons.

LuxLunae

Never finding a tank or trying something?

I should say DAMAGE DEALERS ABUSE THE HELL OUT OF THE SYSTEM!! BECAUSE THEY CANT DAMAGE DEAL FOR IT !!!

You criying for people fake tanking when 75% of people who chose DPS can't solo an world mob!

Making punishments ONLY CAUSES WITCH HUNTS....

THE PUNISHMENT SYSTEM IS THERE !!! ITS CALLED KICKING THE PERSON OUT OF THE PARTY~~~~!!!!

VoxAdActa

Tanks and healers should start queuing as DPS. At worst, it'll give all the people who say fake tanks aren't a problem a taste of their own medicine. At best, it'll ultimately result in balanced groups and eliminate the "we have no tank" possibility. In between those, the middle-road outcome is the DPS start jumping back into the DPS queue because the tank queue becomes a 40 minute wait, as it's clogged up with all the DPS players who thought they were clever enough to beat the system.

Azirel

Let people have double specs (attributes/skills) and change for free.

Easiest solution ever.

Best Regards,
Matt

robertthebard

TheEndBringer wrote: »

OPs solution isn't good and honestly still wouldn't work. But fake tanks and healers are an issue. It's kind of elitist to say "well just do premades" as this isn't always an option for everyone. And voting doesn't always work because of the faker has one friend in the group, or one of the group members isn't paying attention to the voting, the whole thing fails and you're stuck with the person. At that point you can either leave or just stand there (which will probably end in you getting kicked), both of which punishes YOU with a penalty.

I don't know what a good solution would be. I know queuing on a DD sucks. Sometimes you just want to get your random daily. Sometimes you're just bored and don't want to sit in a queue for 40 minutes. ZOS has done a bad job of pushing everyone to use all three roles in a group. The game is very damage centric and if you can kill stuff fast enough, neither support role is necessary.

Maybe leaving a group shouldn't cause a penalty, so if you get a fake tank or healer you can dip and requeue immediately. But I know that the penalty for that situation exists for a reason, so it's not a great solution. But as someone who mostly runs support (and mostly tanks) I hate that much of this game is just downright easier without a healer. Like ridiculously easier. For example, Blackrose Prison. I've progged that with two healers and couldn't complete it but replaced that healer with one decent DD and it was stupid how much easier it was to complete.

Anyway, kinda went off on a tangent. Other than removing the penalty for leaving a group I cannot think of another way to reduce fake support but it would be nice as it's kind of annoying to queue into a normal DLC dungeon with a fake healer and I end up having to do both jobs because they can't stay alive and all I wanted was a quick experience boost to morph a skill. And I'm on console so there's no easy switch to cycle through different setups.

I don't view it as elitist at all. It's not only a grand solution to the problem here, but is the solution used by teams that don't do anything in a game but progression raiding, they don't do PuGs, because you don't know who you're going to get, and if, for example, you're going for a "World First Clear", you want full control of the group. You've elected to "punish" yourself by expecting a tool that pools random people together for content to do something that you have the capability of doing on your own, building a group that's going to hold up to what you're expecting from a group.

Commandment

Here we go bois, you thought solo bg's were the first, now it's time for solo DUNGEONS!!! Elderscrolls offline!!! here we gooo!!!

DigitalHype

jdbassjr wrote: »

I went into a dungeon one time and thought I was a tank but wasn't and was thrown out. It left such a poor taste in my mouth that I never went back again and you might say it made me into a confirmed solo player.

ESO does not give training classes on what is a tank, damage dealer, healer, etc and players are left to wind it as best they can. Unfortunately the other players were not so considerate much like the poster of this thread.

That seems a bit of an overreaction based on a single occurence of being thrown out due to your lack of understanding. I agree sometimes ZoS doesn't make things clear for a totally new player. But, now that you know the system give dungeons another go with your appropriate role selected.

Tsar_Gekkou

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Like I said, you should be able to leave a dungeon without a penalty. If I get stuck with a fake tank or a fake healer and voting to kick doesn't work I shouldn't get penalized for not wanting to spend 45 minutes in Spindleclutch II.

That's not really an option though because anyone that queues as a tank can just drop and requeue every time a group doesn't perfectly meet their expectations. The 15 minute penalty forces them to balance those 15 minutes against the extra 5-10 minutes it might take to do a dungeon with an imperfect group.

The tank might as well just ask to be kicked, and then afk until the group kicks them so the remainder of the penalty timer goes away.

godagarah5000

yeah reporting people for a role should not be a thing some roles cant even be applied to the roles given that needs fixing first before we even think about trying to add a report system for incorrect roles good idea but fix the role system too ;P

Milli_Rabbit

The Best Solution: Bring solo gear to PUG normals. Complete all normal dungeons regardless of who is on the team. Done.

Veteran Dungeon? Maybe reconsider PUGing one of them... Although usually people queue appropriately in veteran content.

LuxiasCaelum13

The problem with fake roles is not as easy to fix as "just kick the guy" or "form your own group".

The point here is: even if you kick the fake healer or fake tank, the group still has to wait another chunk of time before finding someone fit to the role, and nobody should have to do that because it displays lack of respect from the player with the fake role. Entering the queue knowing they won't be able to perform that role, and in consequence, making progress more difficult than it should only because they don't want to wait the same time as everyone else is extremely selfish and disrespectful towards their groupmates. Kicking the player allows the group to continue, that's for sure, but when the group does that, the damage will already be done, forcing people to die unnecesarily at least once and forcing them to wait in the dungeon for god knows how long, doing nothing more than i don't know, twiddling their fingers. At least you can do some things while waiting in the queue, but once you're inside the dungeon you are screwed.

Performing fake roles in premade groups is fine, at least because is assumed the context of a group of friends coming to an agreement, but in pug runs is out of place. Normal dungeons are another story, at least if the player is good he can make things go faster, but still is not ideal.

The game should have a way to regulate fake queueing, at least to discourage that kind of practice.