daemonios wrote: »

RedSwallow wrote: »

What people advocating GAH and asking "why should I spend my time to get the best deal" don't understand is that with GAH there will be no best deal at all. Just thousands of indolent players dumping common stuff from their bags for a bit cheaper then the cheapest in hope it will be sold before someone lists same item even cheaper and a dozen of hucksters monopolizing rare stuff. It will not lead to a "free market" - it will only lead to that there will be no way to gane any decent amount of gold unless you get something rare and expensive by yourself. It is this way in any game with GAH which exists for at least some decent time, and it would be this way IRL if governments didn't have policies against monopoly and people could generate products by putting nothing but time into it.

Erm... Isnt' that by definition what a "free market" should look like? ESO has the antithesis of a free market. It works almost exclusively on information asymmetry, namely information on what others are buying or selling for, information on where to find certain items, etc. Sure, stuff that is easy to come by will tend towards losing value. Rare stuff on the other hand will tend to keep its value, and would be available to far more people than in ESO.

RedSwallow wrote: »

But I'd really vote for some in-game analogue of TTC, which would gather up-to-date information about the item you are looking for. It shouldn't be free, though, or it shouldn't show all the info, so it will only make sense using it when you are looking for something specific you need, not something to flip for more gold then it is now. I doubt it will be possible to hide the libraries from outside access, though.

Again, you are admitting you don't want a free market. You want to capitalize on the fact that information is not readily available to everyone.

RedSwallow wrote: »

I absolutely don't get why people keep saying "trading is complicated" and "it's not open for everyone". If you have something worth selling, you'll make much more then this 5k fee you have to pay to be able to list items. If you are selling so little stuff so cheap that 5k is a lot to pay, why would you need selling option at all? Well, okey, maybe you play for like 15 minutes and not even every day, or only sell expensive stuff once in a lifetime. Why would you need an everyday access to selling? Collect things for longer, apply to a guild, sell everything you can, leave the guild. Use chat after all, if that's such a rare occasion. Because if what you want to do is to flood the market with one-nirnroot-i-picked-up-and-don't-have-space-for lots, it's good they don't allow this.

So joining guilds, leaving guilds, managing lists of stuff to sell at a future date, possibly, is not complicated? You are describing running through hoops to make laughable amounts of virtual coin. It is excessive unless you are pretty dedicated to the idea of trading. And again, blocking people from trading that you personally believe are unworthy of trading is the definition of not a free market, even though defenders of the current system keep touting the free market horn as The Reason Why Guild Traders Are Good. I would be genuinely interested in seeing ZOS' numbers for the in-game economy. I strongly suspect the majority of the player base have never so much as visited a guild trader, and a significant portion probably only visits those in major trade hubs. This is complicated. This is not open for everyone. This doesn't serve the game as a whole, it serves a fraction of sellers who enjoy the flip-the-item endgame. I see the appeal, but I don't think the game should cater to them at the expense of everyone else.

RedSwallow wrote: »

There was also something like "making people be a part of a guild just to trade is bad" and "if the guild only cares about trading this guild shouldn't have existed at all". Well, we have 5 guild slots here when in most of other games you can only be a member of one. There's plenty of room to spare for trading access. I don't really see how you would need all 5 slots for socially active guilds "which deserve existing", being a part of 500-people community 5 different times.

I'll concede that point. I personally would prefer a system where you would have larger guilds, but could only be a part of one. The current system does allow for large, active guilds, but the fact that everyone in a region/platform plays on the same megaserver, as opposed to being spread out across different "shards", makes guilds aggressively clean out their roster, and it makes the 500-player limit seem low. Still, with the 30-item limit, I personally have been in 3 of the largest trading guilds at the same time when i used to care more about trading. This is true for many people - check out the names of sellers for some rare items in Belkarth and see if you can't recognize names from one trader to the next.

daemonios wrote: »

RedSwallow wrote: »

What people advocating GAH and asking "why should I spend my time to get the best deal" don't understand is that with GAH there will be no best deal at all. Just thousands of indolent players dumping common stuff from their bags for a bit cheaper then the cheapest in hope it will be sold before someone lists same item even cheaper and a dozen of hucksters monopolizing rare stuff. It will not lead to a "free market" - it will only lead to that there will be no way to gane any decent amount of gold unless you get something rare and expensive by yourself. It is this way in any game with GAH which exists for at least some decent time, and it would be this way IRL if governments didn't have policies against monopoly and people could generate products by putting nothing but time into it.

Erm... Isnt' that by definition what a "free market" should look like? ESO has the antithesis of a free market. It works almost exclusively on information asymmetry, namely information on what others are buying or selling for, information on where to find certain items, etc. Sure, stuff that is easy to come by will tend towards losing value. Rare stuff on the other hand will tend to keep its value, and would be available to far more people than in ESO.

RedSwallow wrote: »

But I'd really vote for some in-game analogue of TTC, which would gather up-to-date information about the item you are looking for. It shouldn't be free, though, or it shouldn't show all the info, so it will only make sense using it when you are looking for something specific you need, not something to flip for more gold then it is now. I doubt it will be possible to hide the libraries from outside access, though.

Again, you are admitting you don't want a free market. You want to capitalize on the fact that information is not readily available to everyone.

RedSwallow wrote: »

I absolutely don't get why people keep saying "trading is complicated" and "it's not open for everyone". If you have something worth selling, you'll make much more then this 5k fee you have to pay to be able to list items. If you are selling so little stuff so cheap that 5k is a lot to pay, why would you need selling option at all? Well, okey, maybe you play for like 15 minutes and not even every day, or only sell expensive stuff once in a lifetime. Why would you need an everyday access to selling? Collect things for longer, apply to a guild, sell everything you can, leave the guild. Use chat after all, if that's such a rare occasion. Because if what you want to do is to flood the market with one-nirnroot-i-picked-up-and-don't-have-space-for lots, it's good they don't allow this.

So joining guilds, leaving guilds, managing lists of stuff to sell at a future date, possibly, is not complicated? You are describing running through hoops to make laughable amounts of virtual coin. It is excessive unless you are pretty dedicated to the idea of trading. And again, blocking people from trading that you personally believe are unworthy of trading is the definition of not a free market, even though defenders of the current system keep touting the free market horn as The Reason Why Guild Traders Are Good. I would be genuinely interested in seeing ZOS' numbers for the in-game economy. I strongly suspect the majority of the player base have never so much as visited a guild trader, and a significant portion probably only visits those in major trade hubs. This is complicated. This is not open for everyone. This doesn't serve the game as a whole, it serves a fraction of sellers who enjoy the flip-the-item endgame. I see the appeal, but I don't think the game should cater to them at the expense of everyone else.

RedSwallow wrote: »

There was also something like "making people be a part of a guild just to trade is bad" and "if the guild only cares about trading this guild shouldn't have existed at all". Well, we have 5 guild slots here when in most of other games you can only be a member of one. There's plenty of room to spare for trading access. I don't really see how you would need all 5 slots for socially active guilds "which deserve existing", being a part of 500-people community 5 different times.

I'll concede that point. I personally would prefer a system where you would have larger guilds, but could only be a part of one. The current system does allow for large, active guilds, but the fact that everyone in a region/platform plays on the same megaserver, as opposed to being spread out across different "shards", makes guilds aggressively clean out their roster, and it makes the 500-player limit seem low. Still, with the 30-item limit, I personally have been in 3 of the largest trading guilds at the same time when i used to care more about trading. This is true for many people - check out the names of sellers for some rare items in Belkarth and see if you can't recognize names from one trader to the next.

1) Isn't that every market though? You're not describing anything new or different as every market relies on asymetry of information.

2) Again, how is that different from any other system? In the real world, guild traders, or a GAH? Every system wants to capitalize on information that's unavailable but you seem to o b ly be attributing the negatives to guild stores.

3) Joining guilds is easy, just find one you like. Leaving guilds is even easier, it takes 2 button presses to leave. What part of making lists is hard? If you can't manage that how are you going to function with a GAH where trading is more fast paced and information on the economy changes just as fast?

No one is being blocked from joining a trade guild it is one of the simplest things you can do in the game. Everyone that wants a GAH keeps crying, "oh but but muh access," when in reality access to an AH isn't going to make people that don't trade in game trade and access doesn't = accessibility.

Your other points are just silly, of course people use the guild trader and it doesn't matter if the majority only uses the ones in the major trade hubs, the others still see more then enough sales to keep going.

It's no more complicated than a GAH would be, if you can't understand in the Guild trader system you will have an even harder time in a GAH enviornment.

This doesn't serve the game as a whole, it serves a fraction of sellers who enjoy the flip-the-item endgame. I see the appeal, but I don't think the game should cater to them at the expense of everyone else.

Ok, now what what I do with your argument when you switch out traders for trials guilds

This doesn't serve the game as a whole, it serves a fraction of PVEers who enjoy the endgame. I see the appeal, but I don't think the game should cater to them at the expense of everyone else.

Can we change all our content now because specific content appeals to specific groups and that doesn't help the game as a whole?

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

radiostar wrote: »

Trust me, I understand the desire for an Auction House gamewide (having made boatloads of gamecash from it in other games). But it would impact other players who really like the trading system in ESO. They have detailed spreadsheets and forecasts, etc. They honestly enjoy the "day trading" aspect and the hustling of buying a Trader week by week. If you can't find or sell what you want on a Trader, then use zone chat sparingly and it still works for the rest of us. I would hate to take another player's fun away. And besides, Z would have major problems trying to install even zone AHs. I'm afraid it would really break the game.

I have no problem taking their fun away. Someone's going to come out on top and some people are going to come out unsatisfied.

Leave the developing up to the developers. The question is "Is a AH better than guild traders"

Pros:
AH is open to everyone.
AH is easy to find and use.
AH makes searching for rare items easier
AH makes comparing prices easier.

Cons:
Guild traders are more "immersive"
Guild traders are harder to game.
Guild traders require 0 effort on the part of the devs right now.

Non-arguments:
AH is easy to bot. Add a captcha. Add a listing fee. Add a selling percentage. Its a non-issue.

AH is easy to corner. It's easy to flip, but I doubt you'd be making the millions you'd think. And with tons of people flipping, the prices would be all over the place. Anythign common would find a nice price point where it gets flipped up to regular price or its over and doesn't sell.

AH doesn't take money out of the economy. Make it take money out of the economy.

AH would destroy guilds. Plenty of non-trading guilds out there existing, trading guilds would still trade

AH would kill "trading game". Trading isn't a game. Haggling in zone chat isn't like a trial. Dealing with scammers isn't like
fighting a hard dungeon. Easily making money should be for everyone, and if you think different then you just keep being wrong.

The majority want "This", not "That". Forum polls don't determine whats good for the game any more than my bloating. The devs are the ones who eventually determine what they want to do and if that's nothing then thats nothing.

The AH issue isn't a bunch of complainers just complaining because they are bored. There are people out there getting screwed by the GT system, as much as you want to say different. I've seen guilds get disbanded, I've seen bullying, I've seen targeted harassment making a GM quit the game. Search the forums, there are tons of threads on it.

But like they said above, we're all talking a bunch and not really changing our minds. this thread has run its course I think. I'll look forward to ranting in the next one.

I have no problem taking their fun away. Someone's going to come out on top and some people are going to come out unsatisfied.

Leave the developing up to the developers. The question is "Is a AH better than guild traders"


True intent shown @PizzaCat82 , you can't compete in the current system so you need to change it because you think it'll give you a one up. It won't if you're bad at trading now you're going to be bad at trading in an AH.

If we should leave developing up to the then why do you keep responding and fighting about the poll? The devs have made it clear they don't want an AH and guild traders are a better system as that is the one they put in their game.

Pros:
AH is open to everyone.
AH is easy to find and use.
AH makes searching for rare items easier
AH makes comparing prices easier.

AH isn't open to everyone, just because you can post something doesn't mean it will sell. Access doesn't = accessibility

AH would use the same system as the Guild Trader just centralized so this is a non argument as it is just as easy on the guild trader system

AH makes searching for rare items easier as no one will use the AH to post them like in WoW or GW2. Welcome to zone trade chat where you can list anything you want and you can avoid the pricey inevitable AH free. Nothing makes a search easier than "0 results found"

AH price comparisons would make rare items cost more and common items cost less. You'd see a larger wealth gap than what currently exists

Cons:
Guild traders are more "immersive"
Guild traders are harder to game.
Guild traders require 0 effort on the part of the devs right now.

Immersion isn't a con
They are harder to game
They require as much effort as a GAH would or probably more as there are more traders.

Non-arguments (aka points PizzaCat can't disprove and prove him wrong) :
AH is easy to bot. Add a captcha. Add a listing fee. Add a selling percentage. Its a non-issue.
AH is easy to corner. It's easy to flip, but I doubt you'd be making the millions you'd think. And with tons of people flipping, the prices would be all over the place. Anythign common would find a nice price point where it gets flipped up to regular price or its over and doesn't sell.
AH doesn't take money out of the economy. Make it take money out of the economy.
AH would destroy guilds. Plenty of non-trading guilds out there existing, trading guilds would still trade
AH would kill "trading game". Trading isn't a game. Haggling in zone chat isn't like a trial. Dealing with scammers isn't like
fighting a hard dungeon. Easily making money should be for everyone, and if you think different then you just keep being wrong.
The majority want "This", not "That". Forum polls don't determine whats good for the game any more than my bloating. The devs are the ones who eventually determine what they want to do and if that's nothing then thats nothing.
The AH issue isn't a bunch of complainers just complaining because they are bored. There are people out there getting screwed by the GT system, as much as you want to say different. I've seen guilds get disbanded, I've seen bullying, I've seen targeted harassment making a GM quit the game. Search the forums, there are tons of threads on it.

But like they said above, we're all talking a bunch and not really changing our minds. this thread has run its course I think. I'll look forward to ranting in the next one.

AH is easy to bot, it's not a non argument and are you going to be ok with a 40% listing fee on a GAH?

AH is easy to corner and we would be making the millions we think because some of us have already done that in other games with a GAH. You don't seem to really understand how economies work, common pieces aren't going to find a nice price point where it gets flipped up, those items are going to nose dive in price because that' how supply and demand works.

Are you going to be ok with how much money is taken out of the economy on your own? A lot of people don't realize that even with 10k weekly dues their guild needs to raise a lot of gold than that generates to secure a trader and all of that gets taken out of the economy. Do you think people are going to want to shoulder a 40% listing fee on what they post? Are they going to be ok having to constantly relist things and eating those fees because they'd be competing with the entire player base vs a small portion of it per zone?

AH would destroy guilds. Plenty of non-trading guilds out there existing, trading guilds would still trade
Let me try this, imagine if we removed trials, would trials guilds still run trials? How would trade guilds still trade?

AH would kill "trading game". Trading isn't a game. Haggling in zone chat isn't like a trial. Dealing with scammers isn't like
fighting a hard dungeon. Easily making money should be for everyone, and if you think different then you just keep being wrong.

Trading is a game to some people, just like the forums are a game to you and not the actual game. Everyone can make money very easily already. If you add in an AH you're not helping those people and at this point I think you know and understand that as well. You don't actually care about the people, you just want a system that's easier to manipulate.
"I have no problem taking their fun away. Someone's going to come out on top and some people are going to come out unsatisfied." after all. If you can't make money in the game as it is you can't make money with a GAH.

The majority want "This", not "That". Forum polls don't determine whats good for the game any more than my bloating. The devs are the ones who eventually determine what they want to do and if that's nothing then that's nothing.
The AH issue isn't a bunch of complainers just complaining because they are bored. There are people out there getting screwed by the GT system, as much as you want to say different. I've seen guilds get disbanded, I've seen bullying, I've seen targeted harassment making a GM quit the game. Search the forums, there are tons of threads on it

How is that different from anything else in the game? Guilds disband, bullying exists, harassment exists and they're not caused by or excuslive to trading guilds or the system and changing it won't stop it either.

The AH is a bunch of complainers, they can't seem to take no for an answer and don't understand how majorities work. They're always trying to wrap their true motives through emotional arguments "oh but muh GM health." Look I'd have more sympathy for you but "Someone's going to come out on top and some people are going to come out unsatisfied." and I guess those people are the ones that can't adapt from WoW to different MMO systems.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

True intent shown @PizzaCat82 , you can't compete in the current system so you need to change it because you think it'll give you a one up. It won't if you're bad at trading now you're going to be bad at trading in an AH.

I'm great at trading. But when I try to get new players to the game to participate they can't and wont participate. Soon they wonder why they have no gold since they vendor everything and why everything on the traders (if they do get to them) are so hard to find and expensive.

My true intent is to make this game easier for my Wife to play. My neices. My friends who don't spend 14 hours and certainly dont want to play "the trading game" just to be able to enjoy the game.

But you've got me. No matter how easy guild traders are... they'll still be controlled by a handful of random people who determine whether you can trade or not. And that's bitten people on the ass. Multiple times. It has to change.

I'm great at trading. But when I try to get new players to the game to participate they can't and wont participate. Soon they wonder why they have no gold since they vendor everything and why everything on the traders (if they do get to them) are so hard to find and expensive.

Well yeah, it's because you're holding their hand through the entire experience. I've done the same thing and had the same reaction but when I tell people "check the guild traders" I get more positive results. If they can't and won't participate in the trader system they can't and won't participate in a GAH and will continue to vendor everything. Some people are just stuck in bad habits that are hard to break and you don't change the entire game to suit the needs of those people.

My true intent is to make this game easier for my Wife to play. My neices. My friends who don't spend 14 hours and certainly dont want to play "the trading game" just to be able to enjoy the game.

Well the way I do it for my friends that are in school or that don't play as much as I do is I help them with content, I'll buy them gear they might need or help with motifs they can't find. Ya know, normal helpful stuff. I don't immediately think, "How can I change the system to hurt long term players that have invested that time to satisfy people that spend 2-3hours a week in game."

I understand that a lot of people can't invest as much time as others but this is an MMORPG, this is meant to be a long term, high time investment type of game. There are tons and tons of genres out there that you could play with your wife and nieces that are more casual and don't require the investment MMOs do.

I'm not going to just petition Nintendo telling them to turn Mario Party into a battle royale because my family likes that more.

But you've got me. No matter how easy guild traders are... they'll still be controlled by a handful of random people who determine whether you can trade or not. And that's bitten people on the ass. Multiple times. It has to change.

I don't think you understand the differences between GT and a GAH.

Guilds can control the GT system but you've still got the opportunity to join those guilds. Nothing is stopping you from doing that. You also know exactly who those guilds are, you can name them, and they're groups of people working together to control the market.

A GAH system can be controlled by a handful of random faceless people who can will set prices as they see fit. You'll have the opportunity to trade buy you won't have any control of the prices you set it at as you have to compete with the entire base. Base prices for cheaper goods are lowered constantly to the point of not being worth the space to put on a guild trader while rarer items sky rocket in price.

This is called supply and demand. You're not increasing the overall supply of the guild stores, you're just moving them into 1 central location and by doing that you're increasing the demand for all of those products. Your idea that no one could possibly corner the market in a GAH is uninformed at best as it is easier for a player to buy everything from one centralized location. Your answer is just mine more and post more which is unrealistic because at a 5% refining rate on something like gold tempers the purchaser is always going to be able to buy out the supply faster than it can be supplied.

By dismantling the trading guilds you'd be giving 100s of millions of gold directly to the GMs of the guilds that you are already saying control the markets and you'd be then putting everything in a single location for them to buy it all. Isn't that a much worse scenario then the one you already think we have? (The answer is yes, so I can't wait for your answer )

No one's saying disband all the guilds. Just stop putting them in charge of the only easy way to trade in the game. The money that those guilds are spending on trader slots will go back into paying for individual member's listings, and maybe giveaways or raffles as needed. Maybe they will disband, I'm not in charge of those guilds. Whats to keep them from doing that now? Probably the same thing that will keep that from happening if it does change.

I'm saying it's easy to flip and manipulate the market, but impossible to corner it. Rare items will go up and common items will go down. Maybe someone in your new trading guild can say "Hey guys the prices of bait keeps going up, I'd put some in if you want to make money"

The more people play and take part in the market, the supply, not just demand, goes up. You might as well claim that someone will come in and buy everything that everyone lists. It's just not feasable, and if it is, I'd like to see real examples. Even above, someone said they tried to corner it at the beginning but ran out of money/space/demand..

And the GMs, if you re-read my posts, don't control the markets. They control the traders. They control the trading. If my GM didn't like me I would be kicked and banned from 90% of the Capital City guilds. I'd have to change my name to continue trading.

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

radiostar wrote: »

Trust me, I understand the desire for an Auction House gamewide (having made boatloads of gamecash from it in other games). But it would impact other players who really like the trading system in ESO. They have detailed spreadsheets and forecasts, etc. They honestly enjoy the "day trading" aspect and the hustling of buying a Trader week by week. If you can't find or sell what you want on a Trader, then use zone chat sparingly and it still works for the rest of us. I would hate to take another player's fun away. And besides, Z would have major problems trying to install even zone AHs. I'm afraid it would really break the game.

AH is easy to bot. Add a captcha. Add a listing fee. Add a selling percentage. Its a non-issue.

I seriously doubt ESO is going to add a captcha to the trading system and listing fees and house % do nothing at all in games that have a central trading system. So how can they help in a central trading system in ESO?

Further, major players in this thread, including the OP, seem to ignore the solid fact there is a server load issue. Having a central trading system means every time we deal with the trade network we are doing a significantly larger query adding significantly larger server load.

This is database facts I am talking about here.

With the server performance as it is Zos would have to be pretty dumb to change to a central trading system and make server performance even worse than it is now.