Auction Houses: yes or no?

ZeroXFF

One Auction House to rule them all

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

BackStabeth wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

When I started playing I was quite surprised that ESO didn't have any centralized buying and selling mechanic. Which I found rather strange since I don't see the added value: ESO has instant travel - unlike EVE where local markets and transport are quite a thing. I just hate to waste hours of my life traveling around to find something that may not even be available on the whole server at all, like rare furniture. Often the guild trader doesn' t even exist in the place TTC mentions.

How would trading be if it were up to you?

It would be far better for us, the players who sell items and play the market. But it wouldn't be good for ESO, and not good for guilds. I belong to three guilds just for trading, I wouldn't if I were not trading.

The other thing is that guilds bid for vendors, they bid a lot of gold for vendors which creates a need for people to play the game to get gold, which allows for group content in part, to be engaged in and for some guilds the purchase of crowns to trade items for in game gold.

An auction house would cripple not only guilds, group play, the requirement to sell crowns for gold to pay for vendor bidding, but ZoS would lose money so it will never happen.

I don't get the ' Auction House will cripple guilds ' viewpoint. That concludes that the ONLY reason guilds exist is to allow selling. And , IMHO, that is nonsense.

No game should cater to select groups of people and deny access to parts of the game to others. There are people who play every day for hours on end, and there are casual players who only player when they get a chance. Every one of these players has One thing in common. They ALL PAID for the game.

Every player should have access to every item that is on sale, from a localized point, and this should Not cost the characters any in-game currency, except whatever small percentage an AH taxes. What good is the trading guild for the Casual player? The Casual finds a couple items during questing or events that they can sell. So they make a few gold... which the Guild will take away from them over the next few weeks.

Lousy system

IMHO

barney2525 wrote: »

BackStabeth wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

When I started playing I was quite surprised that ESO didn't have any centralized buying and selling mechanic. Which I found rather strange since I don't see the added value: ESO has instant travel - unlike EVE where local markets and transport are quite a thing. I just hate to waste hours of my life traveling around to find something that may not even be available on the whole server at all, like rare furniture. Often the guild trader doesn' t even exist in the place TTC mentions.

How would trading be if it were up to you?

It would be far better for us, the players who sell items and play the market. But it wouldn't be good for ESO, and not good for guilds. I belong to three guilds just for trading, I wouldn't if I were not trading.

The other thing is that guilds bid for vendors, they bid a lot of gold for vendors which creates a need for people to play the game to get gold, which allows for group content in part, to be engaged in and for some guilds the purchase of crowns to trade items for in game gold.

An auction house would cripple not only guilds, group play, the requirement to sell crowns for gold to pay for vendor bidding, but ZoS would lose money so it will never happen.

I don't get the ' Auction House will cripple guilds ' viewpoint. That concludes that the ONLY reason guilds exist is to allow selling. And , IMHO, that is nonsense.

No game should cater to select groups of people and deny access to parts of the game to others. There are people who play every day for hours on end, and there are casual players who only player when they get a chance. Every one of these players has One thing in common. They ALL PAID for the game.

Every player should have access to every item that is on sale, from a localized point, and this should Not cost the characters any in-game currency, except whatever small percentage an AH taxes. What good is the trading guild for the Casual player? The Casual finds a couple items during questing or events that they can sell. So they make a few gold... which the Guild will take away from them over the next few weeks.

Lousy system

IMHO

The guild system WOULD be crippled as the way ZOS designed the system was around having guild traders function like this. How many guilds would disband because their trade guild no longer has a function? That's tens of thousands of players.

That is literally every game, especially MMOs, ever. Paying for the game is paying to play the gamw as it is, it doesn't entitle you to change systems you don't like. They also paid for vet trials and arenas too, should they be entitled to just waltz through and pick up gear? They paid for it after all

Every player does have access already, they can take the 2sec to join a guild or use zone chat to sell things. Most trade guilds don't charge any dues so this "costs so much to join a guild" is a flat out lie. The traders that charge you weekly like that have the top vendor spots and you get what you pay for. If you're that casual then there's always zone chat, I'm in 2 trade guilds and I still use it.

Why should the AH tax be small? The small portion of people generating the revenue for the guild stores pays to get it every week so an AH should naturally have a similar tax to it. It'd probably have to be 30-40% to help remove the gold from the world economy to stop inflation.

System works great as intended

If a guild disbands because of that, it shouldn't have existed in the first place.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: most people are in trading guilds because they have to be there, not because they like the guilds or the people in them. For most of them it's not even about the fees, it's about those guilds not offering a community that they would want to be a part of.

The only thing uniting people in trading guilds is greed, and considering that selling stuff is a solo activity, this commonality will not lead to any interesting conversations that would make you do stuff together in the end, defeating the purpose of being in a guild in the first place. And why bother making friends with anyone in the guild at all if you're just going to be kicked if you didn't meet the sales requirements or went on a break for a month or two? If anything, trading guilds promote anti-social behavior. I was in one trading guild for years, one of the first guilds I ever joined back when I started the game in 2015. It was one of those guilds with a trader in a C tier location that didn't have fees, and wasn't even full (~450 members), yet when I logged in after being gone for about a month, I wasn't in it any more.

Plenty of people in the trials community have their trading guilds on mute. They sell their motifs and mats, make their millions, happily pay their fees because the guild is making them rich, but they never talk to anyone in that guild. Dedicated trading guilds are purely utilitarian entities that literally nobody will miss if they are gone tomorrow and there is an actually functional trading system put in place.

And what's more, even a lot of GMs of trading guilds won't miss them either, because they are usually on the verge of burnout, and don't get to actually enjoy the game, they merely keep going because of the time and money they already invested in them. If anything, relieving the GMs of that burden is going to help with their mental health, and is the responsible thing to do for ZOS.

But you know what guilds will survive? Those that were a community first, to whom a trader is just a bonus, not the whole justification for their existence. The kind of guilds that I'm pretty sure ZOS actually envisioned when they created this broken system.

TL;DR: Trading guilds do not promote cooperation or group play, so their existence is antithetical to the whole concept of a guild, hence them disbandoning is not a loss to the community or the game as a whole.

idk

Keep everything as it is

Tandor wrote: »

idk wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

They cry "Immersion" and "Harder to corner/and game the market" which are true, in the fact that it would take minutes, as opposed to an hour to do it as it is now.

It is far easier to corner the market now since only a few dedicate the time (or addons no on console) to do so.

I think it'd be much harder to corner the market with more people involved in day to day trading. Sure, it'd be easy to buy up all mats for like an hour.

Then people would log on and added more of said mat undercutting the price you just listed at. Plus you'd have to spread those out, as no one wants to buy 200 temps for 2M they'll just ask guildmates or in zone chat.

So the Arguments against it are:
1. It'd ruin trading guilds who have spent tons of hard work on keeping their spots. And we want trading to be hard because its a competition to these people and they deserve to be on top.


2. It'd be easy to corner the market. Even with all the extra people selling. Even with listing fees and limited slots. I submit on things that matter, it wont be. People will always be listing mats. They will always be listing gear. You might get someone flipping motifs or style pages or whatever, but you get that now. They just don't want it to be common. They are allowed to flip. Everyone else is not.

3. The devs already said no and that means it will never happen ever and there's no need to create threads like these because obviously never means never and no amount of complaining or support will ever change that, plus its like written into the company contract for new employees so when they get hired they must "never change the Trading system"

I'm going to ignore the consipiracy theories and people trying to extrapolate from a small forum poll that is probably biased. It's not an argument worth having because anyone can skew the numbers to mean whatever they want.

What they can't skew is that there's a non-zero percentage of the population who think the current system does not work for the silent majority of people. The ones that play a bit, don't know how to use the guild traders, and just leave the game because its not new player friendly.

Those people don't matter, apparently. The strong survive, and the weak move on to other games.

1. These guilds only last as long as the person running it keeps up with it. It also would help smaller guilds to grow if we had one as people are more likely to join ones that have a trader.

2. There is no evidence that it'd be any easier to corner the market except your claims that it would. Hmm talking of conspiracy theories. It's the same old 'people will corner the market' 'it will ruin the economy' but all there is to that is wild claims that it will.

3. Didn't they say no dragons at one point as well? Things change doesn't mean it will stay the same. This game has been changing a lot over the years.

Also as I pointed out earlier poll numbers hardly represent the entire community. Do you think everyone in game is checking the forums?

1) A global AH hinders smaller guilds as they are now in more direct competition with larger guilders. Guild traders help alleviate that.

2) There's tons of evidence based on previous MMOs with those systems and basic logic also dictates it would be easier.

If you need further evidence we can look at the toilet paper hoarding during recent events. Larger more centralized stores were out of stock because people were able to go to a location an buy the entire stock of something for an area and the only way to regulate sales was to force limits on purchasing. Unless you do the same with an AH you're asking for a system that rewards the richer.

3) They did say no dragons but the TES/ESO crew have seem to have run out of creative ideas. Luckily for us the guild aystem isn't broken so it doesn't need "fixing"

Not really. Smaller guilds are less likely to get guild traders with less support to pay for said traders. A global AH would make people join guilds on which they want to join rather than this one has a trader.

2. Not really. It's just your own conspiraries driven by the desire to make it look as a negative due to not wanting it to change

3. Which proves them saying something won't happen at one point doesn't mean it will,.

Yes because that's totally relevant. You do realize this happened in societies where larger businesses have more over the smaller ones and brands and what not? How does the current system limit people purchasing stuff other than what they can pay for? Cause as is as long as I have gold I can buy as much as I want. You're making examples of real situations to try to make an argument which basically ends with no real actual point and only pretending you're making a point on why auction house is bad.

An auction house takes away a reason many guilds exist. That aside the most active guilds I have belonged to more often than not do have a trader even if they are not a trading guild. We have five guild slots. I doubt the vast majority of players consider traders when filling those guild spots. Maybe one or two spots at most.

A central auction house makes it easier to control rare items. Three or four players could corner the market on any rare item they wish as they only have to sit at one location in shifts. The current system there is over 200 traders many that are constantly getting new inventory. Makes it much much harder to control the market on any item.

Introducing dragons was easy compared to overhauling the entire game economy. World bosses existed in the game before dragons. Dragons are a world boss with a different skin and different mechanics. A central trading system does not exist in the game and would take much more time and effort to introduce. That time and effort would be introducing an inferior economy dynamic.

The auction house is bad because common items would drop in price to vendor prices making it hard for new players to make much gold. Rare items would increase in price again making it hard for new and casual players to be able to afford those rare items. That is a double whammy on new and casual players. They can't get a good price for their items they wish to sell and can't get a good price for others items they wish to buy. Simple as that. You don't have to look at the real world to see why an auction house isn't a good idea compared to the system in place. Just visit the forums dedicated to other MMOs and read the complaints about monopolies and other problems found in an auction house setting.

From what I've seen most bigger guilds have a trader and often they either charge members or run raffles to try to pay for them. Take that away and they can focus on other aspects. Besides guilds can exist for other reasons heck there's many active guilds in games that have auction houses.

You are ignoring the fact most large trading guilds were built and are actively managed with the focus on being a trade guild so it is ridiculous to suggest they need to find a different purpose.

I do not even know what I am bothering to reply to this. Barely 1/3 of those who have responded want an AH. That means a supermajority wants to keep the guild trader system which is significant given a thread like this is more likely to draw the attention of players who want an AH. The rest of us are fine and pleased with the current system.

My experience is the exact opposite, most who want an auction house realise it isn't going to happen so take little interest in such threads. They mainly attract those determined to make sure it sure it doesn't happen. They're defending their corner, and they're defending their bank balance, which in its own way is fair enough. After all, it's only those who benefit from the present trading system as endgame sellers who can afford to participate in it as endgame buyers!

Percentages don't really matter that much. Different polls have given different percentages over the years. What really matters more is that the topic keeps coming up and that when it does there is always a respectable vote for and against a change to the present system, whether that change involves an auction house or simply an improvement to the present system. There is a very significant proportion of the playerbase that isn't entirely happy with the present system, and that has been true year on year.

At the very least, therefore, ZOS ought to recognise that and look at ways of improving it without necessarily going the whole hog and changing it. How about committing to that once the performance issues are sorted ?

Meh. I am talking about the general psyche so it applies here. Not a general impression from talking to the few people we come into contact with.

I say that unconcerned about the guild trader going away. Besides that fact, this was a system Zos very much wanted and after the first iteration was not sufficient so they adapted it to the system that has grown to provide a vibrant economy, there is also the fact that a single, or even multiple central systems as OP mentioned in the poll would mean a much larger query when interfacing the market and that would be detrimental to server performance. I am confident Zos does not want to make performance worse. Because in the end, while I have done well with the current system, I am not so petty that I am going to complain about the trading system in the game if Zos chooses to change it.

I do agree that Zos could refine how we interface with the guild trader to start with. While it has seen some improvement since launch it is still rather unrefined.

SRASinister

Add more guild stores per city

My biggest gripe I guess would be how many random guild traders are in the middle of nowhere or are locked in old dlc places. Like put all the stonefall guild traders in either Ebonheart or Davon's watch not to mention that random one in Bleakrock should move too. I just think that the ones in each area should be centralized in that area. I'm not really advocating that they all got to the alliance capital city just each zones main city or an area in each zone.

I think having an Auction house would take away the uniqueness of ESO's economy not to mention some people like that whole aspect of going around and buying up low priced things in the middle of nowhere to sell them and make a profit as a main point of the game for them.

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wolfie1.0.

Keep everything as it is

To be quite honest, it probably won't ever happen. a GAH is not going to be the perfect system that everyone wants or thinks it is. neither is the current system. Look i voted the way i did because i think the advantages of the current system out weigh those that a GAH has.

but really at the end of the day the work involved would be insane on ZOS's end to change the trading system, for what? what does ZOS gain? One could very well make the argument that ZOS will LOSE money and resources on a change like this. There is a valid point to be made that if addon queries into guild sales history for 5 guilds of a small percentage of the player base at any given moment lags said server, How will server react when a larger heavier search is done? when it addons look at the entire player base? when many many players try to find 1 specific item? they will have to boost capacity which has both an equipment and maintenance cost with it. not to mention that they would have to program around bots.

Aside from that. if they swap over without making any changes to the resources that players currently have access to... well get strapped in for an economic hurricane. Trade guilds wont go away, Trade guilds will cut the fat and consolidate. The most successful trade guilds have hardcore traders in them. These are the people that will be willing to click refresh on a GAH just to get a 1g deal. many say that people wont be able to corner the market on things. They wont need to. the ability to manipulate the market is really all they will need. Resources that were used to competitively in trade/bid wars will now be focused elsewhere. Between the existence of Guild Banks, craft bags, and crown selling the possibility of a person or a group of people cornering the market is a real concern and should not be dismissed. Especially if people are allowed to keep all of their resources after a system change.

Which means that redoing the economy would have one needed element that won't happen. Too many players would quit. But at this point to ensure that an in game economic collapse did not occur, ZOS would have to set everyone back at essentially the beginning. Wipe EVERYTHING that can be traded, Sold to an NPC, deconstructed, or otherwise converted into something that can be traded, sold, or deconstructed. Essentially All gear, All gold, all banks, all mats. All of it gone and everyone back to start. No one wants to admit that this will be needed, and for the most part it will get ignored, but everyone knows it will need to happen for a stable economy to be present after a change in systems.

Lastly there would need to be a gold sink of some kind that exists in the game. Something far reaching that removes a lot of gold from the economy. Increased trader taxes? sure but that will just be passed onto the buyer and will be avoided. making players pay a fee to use the GAH might work short term but its not volatile and dynamic like the bidding wars. So what would the player base be willing to give up to remove gold from the system? Fees to craft? increased outfit fees? Repairs? gold to access Banks? gold to store items? Items that break and can't be repaired? Fees to keep access to your houses? what would it be? regular gold wipes? currently there is a small percentage of players that voluntarily sink massive amounts of gold out of the game voluntarily that you rarely see in other MMO's and its a large part due to how the system is set up.

is this system perfect no. is it what we have yes. Will it change? most likely in the form of minor enhancements but the core system won't change unless something drastic happens.

idk

Keep everything as it is

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

idk wrote: »

n0tthesun wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

Responses to his poll show.
32% (152 votes) for some sort of auction house.
64% (301 votes) are against any Auction House.

This and every other poll and discussion on this end the same way majority of votes are for NO Auction House, and that ZOS has started NO to Auction House request. Can we finally stop this silliness.

Yet only 51% want to keep the present system as it is. That is why it will always be a regular topic for discussion. Only when the present system is improved so that more people support it will the idea of a different system finally be laid to rest.

Also, it's highly likely that the narrow majority who support the present system as it is will be slanted towards PC players with add-ons, it's highly unlikely that there is a majority of console players in favour of keeping the present system as it is. If the present system was to be improved in such a way that more console players supported it then that would also be likely to lay the idea of a different system to rest.

However, all the time the polls show either side of 50% against keeping the present system unchanged, as they have done over the years, sometimes one way and sometimes the other way but always by a small margin, it will be a regular topic for discussion.

And only 21% want one Auction House. 11% want more than one Auction House, which is similar to what we have now with the Guild system.

Of those wanting no Auction House 51% want it to stay as is, 8% want more guilds, 4% want to keep it as is but remove TTC.

And to add to this, the question (IN THE TITLE) is if we do or do not want auction houses. So that is what we should be looking at here. I do not appreciate my choice of "add MORE traders" being pooled in with those who voted YES to auction houses. That makes absolutely no sense. If I didn't think this topic was completely ridiculous in the first place, I would suggest a poll that was less flawed:

AUCTION HOUSE?
1_YES
2_NO

You are absolutely correct. I would hope someone is not making such a blatant error.


The fact is that as of now, with 477 votes, only 1/3 have an interest in some sort of auction house. A supermajority has loudly spoken that they want to keep the guild trader system.

While I am expecting OP was thinking people would support their opinion but instead we spoke loudly that we are tired of the stale systems of old games and prefer the more social guild design and one that is not as easy for bots to manipulate.

You are extrapolating to the wide player base based on a very limited number of responses here.

Which is essentially the nature of a poll. Much better than taking my personal feelings on the matter and suggesting that is how everyone else feels.

kargen27

Other .. (explain)

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not even know what I am bothering to reply to this. Barely 1/3 of those who have responded want an AH. That means a supermajority wants to keep the guild trader system which is significant given a thread like this is more likely to draw the attention of players who want an AH. The rest of us are fine and pleased with the current system.

And this is a small tiny subset of those who play the game and proves nothing, even if the results were reversed.

newtinmpls wrote: »

In an Auction House, the "casual player" would have even less access as the flippers would swoop in long before the casual player got their peek.

This is simply not true. I suspect you have never played with a global AH or haven't done so in such a long time you forgot.

Some deals would be lost, but so what? Knowing where something is and a "fair" price for it would go a long way towards fixing the current system even without a global AH. But having one would not cause the problems to claim unless you think the other games that use it just fine somehow dodged that bullet.

No one has addressed the difficulty of finding something and/or a fair price on consoles. The current system sucks for that. ZoS decided to offer ESO as a console game, so the blame for this lies on them.

The results does prove that people would prefer the guild trader system even if it is a small subset of players.

It also is a truth of having a global AH, I know because I've done it.

Knowing where something is doesn't guarantee it'll be there more often and if you're concerned about a "fair" (you used quotations for a reason, because such a thing doesn't actually exist) then you're going to find them more often on the guild store system vs the AH system. The other systems didn't dodge a bullet, they just have no other way to play than to live with it.

Huh?

How do I find the motif I am looking for? Much easier to find if one is for sale with a single AH rather than scattered traders.

Maybe you like to travel from trader to trader to look, but I am fairly certain the majority of players do not find that compelling gameplay.

That is the very problem most have with an auction house. Yes it is easier to find something you are looking for. It is also easier for someone who wants to control the market on certain items to find those items. Three or four people could take turns watching the auction house to buy all of a specific item. If they want to control the motif you are looking for you are going to have to be extremely lucky to be looking for it just as it is posted or you will have to wait for the people controlling the motif to post it at a ridiculously high price.
If it is easier for you to find it is easier for others to control.
I do think a central board in each zone that has a list of what each trader has would be a good thing. I don't think it should include prices though so if you want a bargain you have to visit all the traders.

PizzaCat82

A few auction houses, like one in each capital

Guild traders don't stop someone from controlling the market. If someone wanted to attempt to control all of a certain item, they'd have to pick something rare enough to corner. Gold mats get bought and sold by the stacks all the time Hundreds of millions of gold would be required to just get all of 1 type of gold mat, and even then, people would just farm more.

Sure is a lot of people assuming PC is the only platform and addons are built in. Those no-fee guild traders usually have selling quotas which are only on PC. TTC tells you the prices and where to find stuff. You all have tons of benefits of a centralized trading system while console peasants have to deal with tons of issues which would be solved by it.

But hey PC was always the dev's favorite. We're just the step-children.

BackStabeth

It's not worth considering anything new, nor would it be wise to spend any time, effort or energy on anything new until what exists already is fixed and working.

ZoS, fix what is broken!

RedSwallow

Other .. (explain)

What people advocating GAH and asking "why should I spend my time to get the best deal" don't understand is that with GAH there will be no best deal at all. Just thousands of indolent players dumping common stuff from their bags for a bit cheaper then the cheapest in hope it will be sold before someone lists same item even cheaper and a dozen of hucksters monopolizing rare stuff. It will not lead to a "free market" - it will only lead to that there will be no way to gane any decent amount of gold unless you get something rare and expensive by yourself. It is this way in any game with GAH which exists for at least some decent time, and it would be this way IRL if governments didn't have policies against monopoly and people could generate products by putting nothing but time into it.

But I'd really vote for some in-game analogue of TTC, which would gather up-to-date information about the item you are looking for. It shouldn't be free, though, or it shouldn't show all the info, so it will only make sense using it when you are looking for something specific you need, not something to flip for more gold then it is now. I doubt it will be possible to hide the libraries from outside access, though.

Also, seeing as a lot of people here referred to the fact that with current system it's hard for new players to start trading, I just had to go and create a forum account to show my, a new player, perspective of view, under spoiler below:

I started playing less then a month ago, and I started trading on my second week or so (the very moment I understood that there's no way to farm gold for next bag expansion via simply selling stuff to vendors).
Enrolling in the first trading guild didn't take any effort at all - while running my questline I've seen people inviting to their trade guilds plenty of times, some of them with fees, others without. Well, I had to google what does "the guild has a trader" actually mean (I don't see a problem with it, when you are new, there's always a lot of stuff to google). So I just applied to the first no-fee guild with a trader to see how it works from the inside. Scrolled some listings, looked what people were selling, listed some of the same stuff from my bag, successfully sold it.
At that point for me, as a new player, who doesn't know what rare motifs or top lvl gear is, there was not much difference from the common AH system - just more localized. Which was good for me, as a new player willing to sell some stuff, because trying to list my things I didn't meet immediate overflow of same items sold by other traders (which is a normal thing for games with GAH I played before) - and so I could really see a reason why trading's worth doing. For a new player this system is more than friendly, much friendlier then any GAH you can ever come up with.

Then my first guild lost it's trader and I could compare how things differ when there is none. I didn't like it, so I went directly to guilds roster and made some research on what other guilds have to offer in terms of trading. Soon I knew: most of the guilds with fees have stable traders at least somewhere. Then I understood that there are plenty of guilds with like 3k-5k fees which is practically nothing, even for me, as a new player, - 5k gold is less then I get from selling herbs I pick up along the way while running my quests. So I chose some guild for my liking, payed my fee and got much more back. When I got my hands on rare stuff it turned out that it's not even that hard to meet a no-fee minimum requirement from time to time. Actually, it's rather easy if you want to.

This being said, I absolutely don't get why people keep saying "trading is complicated" and "it's not open for everyone". If you have something worth selling, you'll make much more then this 5k fee you have to pay to be able to list items. If you are selling so little stuff so cheap that 5k is a lot to pay, why would you need selling option at all? Well, okey, maybe you play for like 15 minutes and not even every day, or only sell expensive stuff once in a lifetime. Why would you need an everyday access to selling? Collect things for longer, apply to a guild, sell everything you can, leave the guild. Use chat after all, if that's such a rare occasion. Because if what you want to do is to flood the market with one-nirnroot-i-picked-up-and-don't-have-space-for lots, it's good they don't allow this.

There was also something like "making people be a part of a guild just to trade is bad" and "if the guild only cares about trading this guild shouldn't have existed at all". Well, we have 5 guild slots here when in most of other games you can only be a member of one. There's plenty of room to spare for trading access. I don't really see how you would need all 5 slots for socially active guilds "which deserve existing", being a part of 500-people community 5 different times.

idk

Keep everything as it is

kargen27 wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not even know what I am bothering to reply to this. Barely 1/3 of those who have responded want an AH. That means a supermajority wants to keep the guild trader system which is significant given a thread like this is more likely to draw the attention of players who want an AH. The rest of us are fine and pleased with the current system.

And this is a small tiny subset of those who play the game and proves nothing, even if the results were reversed.

newtinmpls wrote: »

In an Auction House, the "casual player" would have even less access as the flippers would swoop in long before the casual player got their peek.

This is simply not true. I suspect you have never played with a global AH or haven't done so in such a long time you forgot.

Some deals would be lost, but so what? Knowing where something is and a "fair" price for it would go a long way towards fixing the current system even without a global AH. But having one would not cause the problems to claim unless you think the other games that use it just fine somehow dodged that bullet.

No one has addressed the difficulty of finding something and/or a fair price on consoles. The current system sucks for that. ZoS decided to offer ESO as a console game, so the blame for this lies on them.

The results does prove that people would prefer the guild trader system even if it is a small subset of players.

It also is a truth of having a global AH, I know because I've done it.

Knowing where something is doesn't guarantee it'll be there more often and if you're concerned about a "fair" (you used quotations for a reason, because such a thing doesn't actually exist) then you're going to find them more often on the guild store system vs the AH system. The other systems didn't dodge a bullet, they just have no other way to play than to live with it.

Huh?

How do I find the motif I am looking for? Much easier to find if one is for sale with a single AH rather than scattered traders.

Maybe you like to travel from trader to trader to look, but I am fairly certain the majority of players do not find that compelling gameplay.

That is the very problem most have with an auction house. Yes it is easier to find something you are looking for. It is also easier for someone who wants to control the market on certain items to find those items. Three or four people could take turns watching the auction house to buy all of a specific item. If they want to control the motif you are looking for you are going to have to be extremely lucky to be looking for it just as it is posted or you will have to wait for the people controlling the motif to post it at a ridiculously high price.
If it is easier for you to find it is easier for others to control.
I do think a central board in each zone that has a list of what each trader has would be a good thing. I don't think it should include prices though so if you want a bargain you have to visit all the traders.

Take this a step further and it is a bot haven. You are thinking lightweight when one bot can do what 4 players can but much faster and more efficient.

newtinmpls

Other .. (explain)

idk wrote: »

Take this a step further and it is a bot haven. You are thinking lightweight when one bot can do what 4 players can but much faster and more efficient.

Oh crap, good point. I wasn't being cynical enough.

kargen27

Other .. (explain)

idk wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

idk wrote: »

n0tthesun wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

Responses to his poll show.
32% (152 votes) for some sort of auction house.
64% (301 votes) are against any Auction House.

This and every other poll and discussion on this end the same way majority of votes are for NO Auction House, and that ZOS has started NO to Auction House request. Can we finally stop this silliness.

Yet only 51% want to keep the present system as it is. That is why it will always be a regular topic for discussion. Only when the present system is improved so that more people support it will the idea of a different system finally be laid to rest.

Also, it's highly likely that the narrow majority who support the present system as it is will be slanted towards PC players with add-ons, it's highly unlikely that there is a majority of console players in favour of keeping the present system as it is. If the present system was to be improved in such a way that more console players supported it then that would also be likely to lay the idea of a different system to rest.

However, all the time the polls show either side of 50% against keeping the present system unchanged, as they have done over the years, sometimes one way and sometimes the other way but always by a small margin, it will be a regular topic for discussion.

And only 21% want one Auction House. 11% want more than one Auction House, which is similar to what we have now with the Guild system.

Of those wanting no Auction House 51% want it to stay as is, 8% want more guilds, 4% want to keep it as is but remove TTC.

And to add to this, the question (IN THE TITLE) is if we do or do not want auction houses. So that is what we should be looking at here. I do not appreciate my choice of "add MORE traders" being pooled in with those who voted YES to auction houses. That makes absolutely no sense. If I didn't think this topic was completely ridiculous in the first place, I would suggest a poll that was less flawed:

AUCTION HOUSE?
1_YES
2_NO

You are absolutely correct. I would hope someone is not making such a blatant error.


The fact is that as of now, with 477 votes, only 1/3 have an interest in some sort of auction house. A supermajority has loudly spoken that they want to keep the guild trader system.

While I am expecting OP was thinking people would support their opinion but instead we spoke loudly that we are tired of the stale systems of old games and prefer the more social guild design and one that is not as easy for bots to manipulate.

You are extrapolating to the wide player base based on a very limited number of responses here.

Which is essentially the nature of a poll. Much better than taking my personal feelings on the matter and suggesting that is how everyone else feels.

The problem with a poll in these forums is the population isn't a good cross section of the games population. Kind of like when a news agency posts a poll on their website. You know the poll will be skewed based on the viewers prevalent views that cause them to go to that news source.

volkeswagon

Add more guild stores per city

having more traders, especially in the capitals will help. Too much competition for traders. They are too expensive. 10-12 traders in each capital. 8 in Vivec, Alinor, Daggerfall, Ebonheart, windhelm, etc

idk

Keep everything as it is

kargen27 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

idk wrote: »

n0tthesun wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

Responses to his poll show.
32% (152 votes) for some sort of auction house.
64% (301 votes) are against any Auction House.

This and every other poll and discussion on this end the same way majority of votes are for NO Auction House, and that ZOS has started NO to Auction House request. Can we finally stop this silliness.

Yet only 51% want to keep the present system as it is. That is why it will always be a regular topic for discussion. Only when the present system is improved so that more people support it will the idea of a different system finally be laid to rest.

Also, it's highly likely that the narrow majority who support the present system as it is will be slanted towards PC players with add-ons, it's highly unlikely that there is a majority of console players in favour of keeping the present system as it is. If the present system was to be improved in such a way that more console players supported it then that would also be likely to lay the idea of a different system to rest.

However, all the time the polls show either side of 50% against keeping the present system unchanged, as they have done over the years, sometimes one way and sometimes the other way but always by a small margin, it will be a regular topic for discussion.

And only 21% want one Auction House. 11% want more than one Auction House, which is similar to what we have now with the Guild system.

Of those wanting no Auction House 51% want it to stay as is, 8% want more guilds, 4% want to keep it as is but remove TTC.

And to add to this, the question (IN THE TITLE) is if we do or do not want auction houses. So that is what we should be looking at here. I do not appreciate my choice of "add MORE traders" being pooled in with those who voted YES to auction houses. That makes absolutely no sense. If I didn't think this topic was completely ridiculous in the first place, I would suggest a poll that was less flawed:

AUCTION HOUSE?
1_YES
2_NO

You are absolutely correct. I would hope someone is not making such a blatant error.


The fact is that as of now, with 477 votes, only 1/3 have an interest in some sort of auction house. A supermajority has loudly spoken that they want to keep the guild trader system.

While I am expecting OP was thinking people would support their opinion but instead we spoke loudly that we are tired of the stale systems of old games and prefer the more social guild design and one that is not as easy for bots to manipulate.

You are extrapolating to the wide player base based on a very limited number of responses here.

Which is essentially the nature of a poll. Much better than taking my personal feelings on the matter and suggesting that is how everyone else feels.

The problem with a poll in these forums is the population isn't a good cross section of the games population. Kind of like when a news agency posts a poll on their website. You know the poll will be skewed based on the viewers prevalent views that cause them to go to that news source.

I am fully aware of the differences between a forum poll and a poll using actual standards such as random sampling. Heck, there are auction house polls in these forums that are split pretty even though they are better written than this one.

However, there is someone in this thread that is basically saying they are pretty sure most players want an auction house but fails to demonstrate how they would even know that. That is the point I was arguing against as it is nothing more than empty words. It is so easy, yet lacks value, to suggest I think this way so most people must think this way.

Ri_Khan

A few auction houses, like one in each capital

The trader types can brigade all they want, my takeaway from these countless polls and "discussions" (nobody seems to be listening to each other) is that the system is not nearly as popular or beneficial to the majority of players as it should be. The thread asking GM's about the new bidding system completely reinforces that. The economy needs to be more than just a gold sink and shouldn't have to feel like a part-time job.

Eifleber

A few auction houses, like one in each capital

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The economy works great for anyone that wants to already be a part of it already.

Untrue.

How can you not be part of the economy? Every player buys stuff from player stores (be it for researching rare traits, furniture, crafting materials or whatever), basically making all players be part of the economy.
However NOT every player likes to spend a lot of time travel around looking for stuff based on TTC only to find out it's not there anymore all the time. For people not knowing about TTC it's even more frustrating.

So no, from a buyers perspective (the vast majority of players) you can not possibly say that the current system is very good or user friendly.
.

Rave the Histborn

Keep everything as it is

Eifleber wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The economy works great for anyone that wants to already be a part of it already.

Untrue.

How can you not be part of the economy? Every player buys stuff from player stores (be it for researching rare traits, furniture, crafting materials or whatever), basically making all players be part of the economy.
However NOT every player likes to spend a lot of time travel around looking for stuff based on TTC only to find out it's not there anymore all the time. For people not knowing about TTC it's even more frustrating.

So no, from a buyers perspective (the vast majority of players) you can not possibly say that the current system is very good or user friendly.
.

Well I keep being told that it's so hard by the GAH crowd that it's so hard to join in on the economy in the game. Im glad you agree with me about it being easy to get into.

Look, I get people dont enjoy traveling to get stuff because ya know, work, but changing things because some people don't like something isn't a valid reason. If we take that reasoning then NOT every player likes to farm for gear, not every player likes hard mode for extra keys, not every player wants to run veteran for perfected gear, so doe we start changing all these and dumbing them down? For people that dont know about add ons it's even more frustrating.

So yes as a buyer and a seller it is user friendly and a good system. Please read the spoiler @RedSwallow posted for a great perspective on things.

Rave the Histborn

Keep everything as it is

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Guild traders don't stop someone from controlling the market. If someone wanted to attempt to control all of a certain item, they'd have to pick something rare enough to corner. Gold mats get bought and sold by the stacks all the time Hundreds of millions of gold would be required to just get all of 1 type of gold mat, and even then, people would just farm more.

Sure is a lot of people assuming PC is the only platform and addons are built in. Those no-fee guild traders usually have selling quotas which are only on PC. TTC tells you the prices and where to find stuff. You all have tons of benefits of a centralized trading system while console peasants have to deal with tons of issues which would be solved by it.

But hey PC was always the dev's favorite. We're just the step-children.

No system stops someone from cornering the market but which market is easier to corner: the one with one AH with every item listed by players for sale at one location or guild traders with 10s of traders with a limited number of items in each trader.

PC population is significantly higher than consoles so it's natural people would assume you're on a computer.

daemonios

One Auction House to rule them all

RedSwallow wrote: »

What people advocating GAH and asking "why should I spend my time to get the best deal" don't understand is that with GAH there will be no best deal at all. Just thousands of indolent players dumping common stuff from their bags for a bit cheaper then the cheapest in hope it will be sold before someone lists same item even cheaper and a dozen of hucksters monopolizing rare stuff. It will not lead to a "free market" - it will only lead to that there will be no way to gane any decent amount of gold unless you get something rare and expensive by yourself. It is this way in any game with GAH which exists for at least some decent time, and it would be this way IRL if governments didn't have policies against monopoly and people could generate products by putting nothing but time into it.

Erm... Isnt' that by definition what a "free market" should look like? ESO has the antithesis of a free market. It works almost exclusively on information asymmetry, namely information on what others are buying or selling for, information on where to find certain items, etc. Sure, stuff that is easy to come by will tend towards losing value. Rare stuff on the other hand will tend to keep its value, and would be available to far more people than in ESO.

RedSwallow wrote: »

But I'd really vote for some in-game analogue of TTC, which would gather up-to-date information about the item you are looking for. It shouldn't be free, though, or it shouldn't show all the info, so it will only make sense using it when you are looking for something specific you need, not something to flip for more gold then it is now. I doubt it will be possible to hide the libraries from outside access, though.

Again, you are admitting you don't want a free market. You want to capitalize on the fact that information is not readily available to everyone.

RedSwallow wrote: »

I absolutely don't get why people keep saying "trading is complicated" and "it's not open for everyone". If you have something worth selling, you'll make much more then this 5k fee you have to pay to be able to list items. If you are selling so little stuff so cheap that 5k is a lot to pay, why would you need selling option at all? Well, okey, maybe you play for like 15 minutes and not even every day, or only sell expensive stuff once in a lifetime. Why would you need an everyday access to selling? Collect things for longer, apply to a guild, sell everything you can, leave the guild. Use chat after all, if that's such a rare occasion. Because if what you want to do is to flood the market with one-nirnroot-i-picked-up-and-don't-have-space-for lots, it's good they don't allow this.

So joining guilds, leaving guilds, managing lists of stuff to sell at a future date, possibly, is not complicated? You are describing running through hoops to make laughable amounts of virtual coin. It is excessive unless you are pretty dedicated to the idea of trading. And again, blocking people from trading that you personally believe are unworthy of trading is the definition of not a free market, even though defenders of the current system keep touting the free market horn as The Reason Why Guild Traders Are Good. I would be genuinely interested in seeing ZOS' numbers for the in-game economy. I strongly suspect the majority of the player base have never so much as visited a guild trader, and a significant portion probably only visits those in major trade hubs. This is complicated. This is not open for everyone. This doesn't serve the game as a whole, it serves a fraction of sellers who enjoy the flip-the-item endgame. I see the appeal, but I don't think the game should cater to them at the expense of everyone else.

RedSwallow wrote: »

There was also something like "making people be a part of a guild just to trade is bad" and "if the guild only cares about trading this guild shouldn't have existed at all". Well, we have 5 guild slots here when in most of other games you can only be a member of one. There's plenty of room to spare for trading access. I don't really see how you would need all 5 slots for socially active guilds "which deserve existing", being a part of 500-people community 5 different times.

I'll concede that point. I personally would prefer a system where you would have larger guilds, but could only be a part of one. The current system does allow for large, active guilds, but the fact that everyone in a region/platform plays on the same megaserver, as opposed to being spread out across different "shards", makes guilds aggressively clean out their roster, and it makes the 500-player limit seem low. Still, with the 30-item limit, I personally have been in 3 of the largest trading guilds at the same time when i used to care more about trading. This is true for many people - check out the names of sellers for some rare items in Belkarth and see if you can't recognize names from one trader to the next.

Eifleber

A few auction houses, like one in each capital

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Look, I get people dont enjoy traveling to get stuff because ya know, work, but changing things because some people don't like something isn't a valid reason.

It depends. If a great majority doesn't like it and doesn' t see the added value of this chore I'd say it' s a valid reason to change things.

Tandor

One Auction House to rule them all

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Guild traders don't stop someone from controlling the market. If someone wanted to attempt to control all of a certain item, they'd have to pick something rare enough to corner. Gold mats get bought and sold by the stacks all the time Hundreds of millions of gold would be required to just get all of 1 type of gold mat, and even then, people would just farm more.

Sure is a lot of people assuming PC is the only platform and addons are built in. Those no-fee guild traders usually have selling quotas which are only on PC. TTC tells you the prices and where to find stuff. You all have tons of benefits of a centralized trading system while console peasants have to deal with tons of issues which would be solved by it.

But hey PC was always the dev's favorite. We're just the step-children.

No system stops someone from cornering the market but which market is easier to corner: the one with one AH with every item listed by players for sale at one location or guild traders with 10s of traders with a limited number of items in each trader.

PC population is significantly higher than consoles so it's natural people would assume you're on a computer.

As far as I'm aware, the only information we have on platform population spreads is that given a while ago by ZOS when they said that the population was evenly split between the three platforms - meaning that PC only accounted for around a third of the population. However, if you have more accurate or up-to-date information then please provide a link to your source.

Iluvrien

Keep everything as it is

daemonios wrote: »

Erm... Isnt' that by definition what a "free market" should look like? ESO has the antithesis of a free market. It works almost exclusively on information asymmetry, namely information on what others are buying or selling for, information on where to find certain items, etc. Sure, stuff that is easy to come by will tend towards losing value. Rare stuff on the other hand will tend to keep its value, and would be available to far more people than in ESO.

I'm interested in this response for a number of reasons, so I would appreciate a little more detail, @daemonios.

1) How do you categorise "easy to come by" vs. "rare"?
2) Are "rare" items equally available to people of all play-styles to trade? (casual, hardcore, PvP, PvE, overland, etc.)

agegarton

Add more guild stores per city

It’s nice to see this concept pop up once every two hours......really.

Can someone who wants an auction house explain why? What’s the tangible benefit over trade guilds? I get that we maybe have too few trade kiosks for the number of guilds who want one, but let’s be honest: if it can be sold, it’s for sale somewhere. If you want it, you can get it.

If you don’t want to search, TTC will effectively show you exactly where to go for the item you want.

What’s the big deal?

Milo

Add more guild stores per city

The amount of people in this thread who bash on GMs and think work shouldn't be rewarded is astonishing.

Do you really think those "greedy soulless GMs" got big by scamming everyone in their guilds? I don't understand it.

If its so easy to make gold with it, why not go for it? Just make a Tradeguild and require a 15k fee a week. Poof, you now have 500 Members out of nowhere who happily pay that fee, now you can retire. Good job. You just won the game.

Also the reason why GMs defend the current system isnt "greed". Its because GMs tend to be much more involved in the system then the next person. They wouldnt be GMs if they would hate the system.

RedSwallow

Other .. (explain)

daemonios wrote: »

Erm... Isnt' that by definition what a "free market" should look like?

Let me rephrase what I said before to rephrase what I said: free market will never work in a system where there is no antimonopoly policy and people have possibility to endlessly generate products with zero investments except for their time. Make the in-game market "free" and there will be nothing left of it by the end of a year.

In MMO there is always someone with more money to invest and more time to grind. Which means there is always someone who values their time and money less then you do. In the end easy-to-come-by stuff (though I would rather determine common items as items which doesn't require any special skills or knowledge to acquire then just easy-to-come-by) doesn't simply tend towards losing value, it loses value completely. People are not selling it for "fair prices" - instead everyone tries to outplay others by establishing a price which would be more fair and there is nothing to ever stop them. IRL there are minimal prices which sellers can't afford going below because there are plenty of factors involved in any real-life production. In the game there are no such factors. Common part of the market which is accessible for everyone in one place and at once uncontrollably falls down and does it very, very fast.

How great that would be, actually - everything would cost less by the end of a day! But the thing is, the rare stuff, the really important one, will not become any cheaper. Being rare, it is extremely easy for few people to control when they have all the information at any given moment. In smaller MMOs with GAH system one person can corner ALL servers with not that much effort. It's not a scary tale, it's simple reality: like there's always someone who wants to sell cheaper, their is always someone else who wants to sell for more. He can't compete in the common market because he will always be outnumbered, so he goes for bigger fish. Buys from those willing to sell for "fair price" and establishes his own price. Just open any GAH and check sellers names there - at first it will look like very normal market where there are few cheaper options and a lot of expensive ones which you probably would consider weirdos who never sells anything. Looking at it for longer you'll see, though: those weirdos are the ones on market for years, and majority of people buying stuff end up buying it from them, not from that cheaper options, because the majority doesn't even has a chance to spot those options.

Eventually you have a lot of things available for vast amount of players only by grinding them, not buying, because spend half a year trying to lure a motif out of a backpack is faster then earn 2kk gold by selling anything they have access to.

In-game free market is not about healthy competition or fair prices, it is about who's first and stays up later. Or, well, like mentioned above, who's bot is calculating faster.

daemonios wrote: »

You are describing running through hoops to make laughable amounts of virtual coin.

If that's laughable, why trade?

daemonios wrote: »

The current system does allow for large, active guilds, but the fact that everyone in a region/platform plays on the same megaserver, as opposed to being spread out across different "shards", makes guilds aggressively clean out their roster, and it makes the 500-player limit seem low. Still, with the 30-item limit, I personally have been in 3 of the largest trading guilds...

Wait, wait. Are you talking about trading guilds or just any other guilds? Because if non-trading guilds clean their ranks as aggressively as trading ones do, I don't see how people above can rightfully accuse trading guilds not being centered around community.

Rave the Histborn

Keep everything as it is

Eifleber wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Look, I get people dont enjoy traveling to get stuff because ya know, work, but changing things because some people don't like something isn't a valid reason.

It depends. If a great majority doesn't like it and doesn' t see the added value of this chore I'd say it' s a valid reason to change things.

The majority wants to keep it the same

Rave the Histborn

Keep everything as it is

Tandor wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Guild traders don't stop someone from controlling the market. If someone wanted to attempt to control all of a certain item, they'd have to pick something rare enough to corner. Gold mats get bought and sold by the stacks all the time Hundreds of millions of gold would be required to just get all of 1 type of gold mat, and even then, people would just farm more.

Sure is a lot of people assuming PC is the only platform and addons are built in. Those no-fee guild traders usually have selling quotas which are only on PC. TTC tells you the prices and where to find stuff. You all have tons of benefits of a centralized trading system while console peasants have to deal with tons of issues which would be solved by it.

But hey PC was always the dev's favorite. We're just the step-children.

No system stops someone from cornering the market but which market is easier to corner: the one with one AH with every item listed by players for sale at one location or guild traders with 10s of traders with a limited number of items in each trader.

PC population is significantly higher than consoles so it's natural people would assume you're on a computer.

As far as I'm aware, the only information we have on platform population spreads is that given a while ago by ZOS when they said that the population was evenly split between the three platforms - meaning that PC only accounted for around a third of the population. However, if you have more accurate or up-to-date information then please provide a link to your source.

OK, so what does evenly split mean? Does that mean there's an even number of accounts created? Does that mean the number of active players players in each game is the same?

The only article I can find on the subject is from 2018.
"Game director Matt Firor told Polygon that the player base is "pretty much" divided 30 percent between PC, PlayStation 4, and Xbox One, though he didn't get any more specific."

That's not really specific and I'd be happy to bet that there was never a 30% even split and it certainly doesn't exist now 2years since that was written.

DTStormfox

Keep as is and ban TTC

We have seen this type of threats and polls so many times, I don't even care about what I vote anymore.

Keep it as is. The ban for TTC is a joke.

radiostar

Other .. (explain)

Trust me, I understand the desire for an Auction House gamewide (having made boatloads of gamecash from it in other games). But it would impact other players who really like the trading system in ESO. They have detailed spreadsheets and forecasts, etc. They honestly enjoy the "day trading" aspect and the hustling of buying a Trader week by week. If you can't find or sell what you want on a Trader, then use zone chat sparingly and it still works for the rest of us. I would hate to take another player's fun away. And besides, Z would have major problems trying to install even zone AHs. I'm afraid it would really break the game.