Vampire Costs Are Actually Fine

JamieAubrey · April 2020

I'm already on a 5% increased cost with New Moon, I'm not about to spend 25% MORE with being a Vamp, time to drop this and free up skill points

Lughlongarm · April 2020

Template concept build idea for vamp magicka necros.

Necros are good not only because vamp skills really help to fill what magicka necros are missing in their kits, but also because some necros skills cost corpes other than recources, so the 20% doesn't apply.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=228907 (this is just a template, no minmax, no buffs, no cp), space for the new vamp skills didn't check the new glyphs yet. editor is not updated for the upcoming patch yet.

The Idea of this build is basically to play around the vamp penalties by maximizing the potential of the ulti morph that gives stage 5.

5- vemp lord set on the body.
2 - Bloodspawn (nerfed, but still OK, we want the ult regen)
1- ring that gives speed(the new one), works great with mist.
1-will power ring
1- Potentates amulet
Willpower- Front bar weapon(whatever you like)
Potentates -Backbar weapons(whatever you like)

This combo will make the vamplord ulti cost 130(on back bar).
With nord passive+bloodspawn+Necrotic potency - you can ramp that ulti regen extremely fast.

Just showing you how broken vamp can get if you really build into it.

darthgummibear_ESO · April 2020

Lughlongarm wrote: »

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I agree. Seems balance to me. stage 4 vemp mist costs like nothing, even the toggle buff is manageable. This cannot co-exist without a strong penalty. stage 1 vemp setup can work for vemp skill dipping.

And what if you are stamina?

Going full stamina vamp(stage 4) this patch is like going magicka build on a WW. You can do it, but should you?
You have options if really want to.
Sets like Prisoner's Rags could be interesting with the sprint theme.
Redguard + Daring Corsair Set will reduce weapon skills by 20% - stamian use lots of weapon skills.

Just some initial ideas before I even started to theory craft around it.

The basic concept is that vaps will have to get used to the idea that this is no more a dipping spec. This something you need to build into in order to be effective. Kinda like what WW have been doing for years now.

Except with the current updates WW doesn't have this sort of massive deficit to deal with.

Lughlongarm · April 2020

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I agree. Seems balance to me. stage 4 vemp mist costs like nothing, even the toggle buff is manageable. This cannot co-exist without a strong penalty. stage 1 vemp setup can work for vemp skill dipping.

And what if you are stamina?

Going full stamina vamp(stage 4) this patch is like going magicka build on a WW. You can do it, but should you?
You have options if really want to.
Sets like Prisoner's Rags could be interesting with the sprint theme.
Redguard + Daring Corsair Set will reduce weapon skills by 20% - stamian use lots of weapon skills.

Just some initial ideas before I even started to theory craft around it.

The basic concept is that vaps will have to get used to the idea that this is no more a dipping spec. This something you need to build into in order to be effective. Kinda like what WW have been doing for years now.

Except with the current updates WW doesn't have this sort of massive deficit to deal with.

Losing access to all class skills and passives is more of a deficit than having a cost increase of 20%. The vamp is much more flexible you can chose how far you want to go. Many builds will just go for the stage one or stage 2, and will use mist only exactly like they do now. Other will go deeper but will have to adjust accordingly.

peacenote · April 2020

Vercingetorix wrote: »

ZoS changed their vision on the Vampire in ESO and you’re mad that it doesn’t align with your preconceived notions on how it should work for YOU.

Couple of things here. ZOS frequently makes dramatic changes without being 100% clear (or even 1% clear) with what they are trying to accomplish. Preconceived notions mean you have no basis for them, but I don't think the concept applies when the game has worked a certain way since 2014. In that case, players often have a basis for their ideas on how things "should" work... and they are based on precedents set in the game itself over the years. While we all know things change, when there's a key break in the game logic it is appropriate to question it.

Second. Was there a statement released somewhere about what vampire is "for" now? Because I don't remember seeing that and I think some of the comments in this thread are because the topic is "Vampire Costs Are Actually Fine." I doubt there are tool tips saying "use this if you are a magicka tank" or "not intended for stamina characters" on the skill line, so whether the costs are "fine" is really subjective depending on how you want to play.

Obviously ZOS has some ideas for what they envisioned the overhaul to be but assuming that vampire is 100% not meant for this or that build seems presumptuous. There isn't really any other skill line that requires you to go "all in" to take advantage of it, EXCEPT for werewolf, which I've always hated because this doesn't fit in with the rest of the game. Making vampire to align with ww still makes those two skill lines the glaring exceptions to the general precedent set in the game for everything else.

The problem with vampires and werewolves is that these options are as much a part of your character's identity as your race or alliance. Some people don't care about that stuff, but lots of people do, and those folks (myself included) are going to try and stay a vampire if possible.

I actually like the idea of some unique skill lines to change things up, so I do hope that these changes will introduce lots of new options and play styles for folks.

Nyteshade · April 2020

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Agreed and to be fair, most of the complaints about the new vampire are coming from folks who are more mad at the fact they can’t brute-force new Vampirism into their cookie-cutter setup. They have to adapt.

That's not really the problem though. "adapting", to use your own presentation, is adapting means go mag tank or go home. That's cookie cutter. That's not adapting.
Everyone it telling you basically that they want to have an option of being vampire in more cases than just as a mag tank. And I think there is some fairness there.
It's not really about fitting anyone's personal view of what a vamp should be in the game. It's that something like this ought to be a bit more inclusive, or adaptable, as you put it, or have some possibility of variety.
You're basically arguing that it's on that mag tanks get an option to run Vamp or not, and no one else should have that option, because it was designed that way.

Your reasoning is circular. Basically, "It was designed that way, so live with it, and live with it, because it was designed that way" (The first part is your argument, the 2nd part, your argument to refute others.

C'mon man, it's a game. People want to be able to play with new shiny things. And I think that's reasonable.

Deathlord92 · April 2020

ShadowHvo wrote: »

It goes completely against the whole fantasy of the Vampire.

Vampires aren't simple a magicka werewolf, or a magicka tank as you put it. They're capable at being equally skilled mages, rogues and warriors.

Remember, vampirism is a state of being, not a class. This penalty goes utterly against build diversity, and will effectively ruin it.

It should receive another far more fitting weakness instead, that doesn't null the 100+ abilities ESO has available.

This 👍

navystylz_ESO · April 2020

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Caelc wrote: »

so how are you going to use things like wall on your back bar when it costs 5k, or cures.

The problem is, what the costs do is basically make you fill your bar with skills that just give you stats and never use them.

I understand what they are trying to do but as usually, they failed miserably. level 1 should be a small cost, maybe the 5 percent, but as you level up to 4, imo it should disappear.

You are still trying to use a traditional dps setup with vampirism - that no longer works. People use New Moon and can handle a 5% increase just fine. Stage 1 is no different than using New Moon, except instead of some stats you get an entire skill line of skills that could be used if you wanted. Reread the vampire skills - most of them cater to builds with high hp pools (tanks).

A whooping two skills use health, and that's only if you take the health morph on one.

Extra damage on the spammble goes up in damage, as you lose health. Not something a tank will do easily, unless they have no sustain and channel frezny long enough.
Frenzy costs health, but you have plenty of health coming in. Vampiric Dragin is specifically meant to restore lost health from vampire skill usage.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

navystylz_ESO · April 2020

peacenote wrote: »

Obviously ZOS has some ideas for what they envisioned the overhaul to be but assuming that vampire is 100% not meant for this or that build seems presumptuous.

Their vision

While combat abilities are only a small part of the Vampire rework, special care was given to create a suite of abilities that work synergistically with each other and round out the Vampire kit. Blood Magic, Hit-and-Run Aggressiveness, Stealth and Elusiveness are the primary gameplay concepts that define the combat experience. Being a Vampire represents a much more active choice instead of a passive one, with active abilities that have very direct effects and passive abilities that key off of many of your core mechanics like Sneak or Sprint. It’s up to you to decide if the improved powers of Vampirism are worth paying a terrible price for, as these powers come with larger penalties. Vampirism is a gift AND a curse, after all…

MaxJrFTW · April 2020

For role playing purposes, sure. Not for anything else.

Opalblade · April 2020

I heard in another thread that the cost increase effects blocking too. If that's true, it might not be all that great for tanks either.

Vercingetorix · April 2020

Opalblade wrote: »

I heard in another thread that the cost increase effects blocking too. If that's true, it might not be all that great for tanks either.

I’ve tested it on my tank and had no issues at stage 1. I only will use stage 4 for when I want to deal damage for questing (not tanking). I don’t have to use light armor to get cheap magicka abilities. Blood Frenzy brings my spell damage up to respectable levels and i can easily maintain it with my tank hp pool. Bonus points for being a necro that can bypass some of the penalties with Reusable Parts and the zero cost tether spells.

wheem_ESO · April 2020

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Been seeing a lot of folks complaining about vampire costs. It should be immediately clear to everyone that traditional magicka dps setups will not work with the new Vampire and they are not meant to. Vampire’s Stage 4 is meant to give magicka-based tanks a dps option much like how WW gives stamina-based tanks a dps option. Abilities like Blood Frenzy are for tanks, not squishy dps. When a tank needs to actually tank, they can easily downgrade their stage to 1 and be just fine. This is a great QoL improvement for tanks.

If you don’t like it, cure yourself. If you want the sneak bonuses, sets like Shadow Dancer, Darloc Brae, and Night’s Silence can assist. Vampire is a choice with a cost - it’s not for everyone anymore.

As I said in another thread, I don't find your argument to be very convincing. My opinion was just reinforced after reading this thread, especially post #19. I'm reasonably sure that screenshot of a 157,245 DPS target dummy parse wasn't taken on a "Magicka tank."

Artanisul · April 2020

I have two vampires now. Neither are tanks lol

A MAgcro and Magblade. Both of them benfited from this change. The low cost spamable is amazing to both of their builds.

I DO believe this is crushing to the buttom bashers though. Weavers are going to starve for resources and I think that is the reason the volume level is so high about these changes being way too much. If you fill every second with actions that cost magika then this is going to kill your build.

darthgummibear_ESO · April 2020

Lughlongarm wrote: »

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I agree. Seems balance to me. stage 4 vemp mist costs like nothing, even the toggle buff is manageable. This cannot co-exist without a strong penalty. stage 1 vemp setup can work for vemp skill dipping.

And what if you are stamina?

Going full stamina vamp(stage 4) this patch is like going magicka build on a WW. You can do it, but should you?
You have options if really want to.
Sets like Prisoner's Rags could be interesting with the sprint theme.
Redguard + Daring Corsair Set will reduce weapon skills by 20% - stamian use lots of weapon skills.

Just some initial ideas before I even started to theory craft around it.

The basic concept is that vaps will have to get used to the idea that this is no more a dipping spec. This something you need to build into in order to be effective. Kinda like what WW have been doing for years now.

Except with the current updates WW doesn't have this sort of massive deficit to deal with.

Losing access to all class skills and passives is more of a deficit than having a cost increase of 20%. The vamp is much more flexible you can chose how far you want to go. Many builds will just go for the stage one or stage 2, and will use mist only exactly like they do now. Other will go deeper but will have to adjust accordingly.

No it's not, not even close. You don't have all your main abilities costing more to use just because you're a werewolf, and that's the whole point. It's completely lopsided.

Saubon · April 2020

wheem_ESO wrote: »

As I said in another thread, I don't find your argument to be very convincing. My opinion was just reinforced after reading this thread, especially post #19. I'm reasonably sure that screenshot of a 157,245 DPS target dummy parse wasn't taken on a "Magicka tank."

That screenshot was extremely biased. It was taken in Bastion Sanguinaris where you have a permanent scion form even with ulti guardian on both bars. He had fully stacked thrassian gloves +3k spell pwr +40% dmg taken and fully stacked vamp toggle (which gives you -2k hp degeneration and you can be healed only by your own abilities).

I'm not here to defend or bash anything, I'm just saying you won't be able to do anything close to this in real enviroment. And honestly biggest dps increase was from thrassian gloves

Dracane · April 2020

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Template concept build idea for vamp magicka necros.

Necros are good not only because vamp skills really help to fill what magicka necros are missing in their kits, but also because some necros skills cost corpes other than recources, so the 20% doesn't apply.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=228907 (this is just a template, no minmax, no buffs, no cp), space for the new vamp skills didn't check the new glyphs yet. editor is not updated for the upcoming patch yet.

The Idea of this build is basically to play around the vamp penalties by maximizing the potential of the ulti morph that gives stage 5.

5- vemp lord set on the body.
2 - Bloodspawn (nerfed, but still OK, we want the ult regen)
1- ring that gives speed(the new one), works great with mist.
1-will power ring
1- Potentates amulet
Willpower- Front bar weapon(whatever you like)
Potentates -Backbar weapons(whatever you like)

This combo will make the vamplord ulti cost 130(on back bar).
With nord passive+bloodspawn+Necrotic potency - you can ramp that ulti regen extremely fast.

Just showing you how broken vamp can get if you really build into it.

You can however not regenerate ultimate while in Bat Scion Form by any means.
I agree, the uptime will still be immense with a cost of 130. But it will not be.
Stage 4 vampire + sorcerer + vampire lord is a cost of 137 in reality. (tested it)
And you are neither a sorcerer nor do you have vampire lord (The set is actually really really bad)

I think Bat Scion is on the edge of either being a major nuisance or utterly useless. I somehow hope it will tend towards being the 2nd, for I would prefer to not be forced to use it because it's too good.

Lughlongarm · April 2020

Dracane wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Template concept build idea for vamp magicka necros.

Necros are good not only because vamp skills really help to fill what magicka necros are missing in their kits, but also because some necros skills cost corpes other than recources, so the 20% doesn't apply.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=228907 (this is just a template, no minmax, no buffs, no cp), space for the new vamp skills didn't check the new glyphs yet. editor is not updated for the upcoming patch yet.

The Idea of this build is basically to play around the vamp penalties by maximizing the potential of the ulti morph that gives stage 5.

5- vemp lord set on the body.
2 - Bloodspawn (nerfed, but still OK, we want the ult regen)
1- ring that gives speed(the new one), works great with mist.
1-will power ring
1- Potentates amulet
Willpower- Front bar weapon(whatever you like)
Potentates -Backbar weapons(whatever you like)

This combo will make the vamplord ulti cost 130(on back bar).
With nord passive+bloodspawn+Necrotic potency - you can ramp that ulti regen extremely fast.

Just showing you how broken vamp can get if you really build into it.

You can however not regenerate ultimate while in Bat Scion Form by any means.
I agree, the uptime will still be immense with a cost of 130. But it will not be.
Stage 4 vampire + sorcerer + vampire lord is a cost of 137 in reality. (tested it)
And you are neither a sorcerer nor do you have vampire lord (The set is actually really really bad)

I think Bat Scion is on the edge of either being a major nuisance or utterly useless. I somehow hope it will tend towards being the 2nd, for I would prefer to not be forced to use it because it's too good.

Also tested it and it is 130. I'm using vampire lord+3 Potentates back bar+stage 4 and I'm not even a sorc. The ulti is 130.
Vamp lord is good if you are really into vamp skills.

Lughlongarm · April 2020

Qbiken · April 2020

Vampire isn't a "passive" skilline anymore and people seem to have a hard time accepting that. Vampire is going to work alot like werewolf now, where you need a dedicated setup for playing vampire for it to work.

fierackas · April 2020

OP is basically saying 'I'm alright Jack, screw the rest of you'

Saelent · April 2020

Bretons are going to become the magpire sustain meta...nothing new there I guess.

Lughlongarm · April 2020

Qbiken wrote: »

Vampire isn't a "passive" skilline anymore and people seem to have a hard time accepting that. Vampire is going to work alot like werewolf now, where you need a dedicated setup for playing vampire for it to work.

This!!!

ku5h · April 2020

Big Vampire Chapter in which 95% of vamp population will get cured.
You got to love ZoS's trolling capabilities.

I only see my magplar using it at stage 1, maybe.

JWillCHS · April 2020

So....

I literally have a magicka Templar that negates the cost increases at level 4. He has about 40K max magicka, 1500 Magicka recovery, and can fully buff spell damage at 4400+. No proc sets. A total of 65% cost reduction in sprint! And about 10% damage mitigation. Use RAT with sprint after 3 seconds.....disappearing mofo!

Sweeps helps with the zero health recovery. But the new vampire spammable is a beast. Plus the snare on sweeps will be dead if you go up against a player with that new mythic boot item.

Toppling charge works pretty well for mobility but Hyponsis/Stupify is really viable. I can not wait...

peacenote · April 2020

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

Obviously ZOS has some ideas for what they envisioned the overhaul to be but assuming that vampire is 100% not meant for this or that build seems presumptuous.

Their vision

While combat abilities are only a small part of the Vampire rework, special care was given to create a suite of abilities that work synergistically with each other and round out the Vampire kit. Blood Magic, Hit-and-Run Aggressiveness, Stealth and Elusiveness are the primary gameplay concepts that define the combat experience. Being a Vampire represents a much more active choice instead of a passive one, with active abilities that have very direct effects and passive abilities that key off of many of your core mechanics like Sneak or Sprint. It’s up to you to decide if the improved powers of Vampirism are worth paying a terrible price for, as these powers come with larger penalties. Vampirism is a gift AND a curse, after all…

Thank you!

While it definitely does not mention a specific traditional role (tank, DPS, or healing), it sure does sound like the Nightblade description: Nightblades are adventurers and opportunists with a gift for getting in and out of trouble. Relying variously on stealth, blades, and speed, Nightblades thrive on conflict and misfortune, trusting to their luck and cunning to survive.

peacenote · April 2020

Qbiken wrote: »

Vampire isn't a "passive" skilline anymore and people seem to have a hard time accepting that. Vampire is going to work alot like werewolf now, where you need a dedicated setup for playing vampire for it to work.

Honestly, I don't think it's about accepting a chance from passive to active. It's about whether it's what's being offered is fun and enjoyable and better than what we had before. What's being overlooked is that the "we" is relative to the builds and classes people were using before the patch. Not everyone has the time or the inclination to make a new character just to check out a re-worked skill line.

Lots of people wanted vampire to be more useful. It seemed like a meaningless choice to many. There's no question that this feedback was addressed by the changes and I don't think anyone is challenging that. What's being challenged is the execution of the idea.

Are there are a lot of werewolves around? Is that really the most successful model for how an immortal could work? My understanding is that werewolves are not viable in a lot of circumstances and as such you never see werewolf tanks or healers or magicka characters. That means there aren't a lot of reasons to check it out.

There's a big difference between "active" and "niche." The Supernatural Recovery passive could have been kept but required slotting a vampire ability, for example. Or a recovery benefit could have been worked into a new vampire ability. I think there are a lot of assumptions that people who were vampires are just bitter that they have to "work hard" when in fact some of the objections are coming from the fact that the skill line now appears to be useless for builds that people still want to play, when they would have liked the chance to join in the fun and adapt to being vampire without changing into one of the more limited types of builds with which the vampire line has synergy now.

JanTanhide · April 2020

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Saelent wrote: »

That’s a terrible way to look at it, an entire skill line just for tanks? Even restoration staffs just aren’t for healers.
If it is only for tanks then there will be even less vampires around.
Why would a tank take a skill that causes for damage to them when they can’t be healed by the healer? Your reasoning makes no sense.

I really hope people keep complaining about the cost because yes, it is just a bit too much right now.

The tank has a vampire skill that heals a massive amount of hp, scaling with the tank’s hp. Have you even tested the changes? I have and can attest to the dps potential of vampire stage 4 for tank characters who need a dps option when not tanking, such as questing or pvp without needing to change too much of their setup.

I see what you are saying. Yes, it makes sense to me. You can go stage 4 and use Vamp skills when not Tanking.

daemonor · April 2020

Wow this thread just became redonkulous, "I will use stage 4 for questin on my mag tank", so you basically just said that vampire stage 4 is only gonna be good for roleplaying, because overland content can be completed with white gear in any build anyway.

Cool. But I actually wanted vampires as viable playstyle for more than roleplaying content you know, mista mag tank-dps guy.
I will try to elaborate again since you are fighting with your own made up arguments, to me it doesn't matter what playstyle is viable, just make one vampire playstyle viable somewhere outside of roleplaying. Either in end game pve or pvp content.

Kidgangster101 · April 2020

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Been seeing a lot of folks complaining about vampire costs. It should be immediately clear to everyone that traditional magicka dps setups will not work with the new Vampire and they are not meant to. Vampire’s Stage 4 is meant to give magicka-based tanks a dps option much like how WW gives stamina-based tanks a dps option. Abilities like Blood Frenzy are for tanks, not squishy dps. When a tank needs to actually tank, they can easily downgrade their stage to 1 and be just fine. This is a great QoL improvement for tanks.

If you don’t like it, cure yourself. If you want the sneak bonuses, sets like Shadow Dancer, Darloc Brae, and Night’s Silence can assist. Vampire is a choice with a cost - it’s not for everyone anymore.

You are wrong lol. There wasn't a lot to choose from vamp other than the passives as they only had 3 moves.... Those 3 moves were terrible as a pve dps so that's why they never ran them.

But you say no one used them? Elusive mist is used by dk and Templar at least in PVP for mobility. The stun was widely used in PVP unt it got nerfed. And bat swarm was used in PVP (even got nerfed because it used to be amazing) and some still use it.

So all your facts are wrong and you are wrong about cost being fine. New moon accolyte gives 5% for almost 500 weapon/spell so why the hell is this 20%?

And a FYI tanks only used vamp for passives and no tank will be a vamp to do "damage" they are a freaking tank lol.