Vampire Costs Are Actually Fine

Vercingetorix

Been seeing a lot of folks complaining about vampire costs. It should be immediately clear to everyone that traditional magicka dps setups will not work with the new Vampire and they are not meant to. Vampire’s Stage 4 is meant to give magicka-based tanks a dps option much like how WW gives stamina-based tanks a dps option. Abilities like Blood Frenzy are for tanks, not squishy dps. When a tank needs to actually tank, they can easily downgrade their stage to 1 and be just fine. This is a great QoL improvement for tanks.

If you don’t like it, cure yourself. If you want the sneak bonuses, sets like Shadow Dancer, Darloc Brae, and Night’s Silence can assist. Vampire is a choice with a cost - it’s not for everyone anymore.

Paradisius

I agree that the cost is possible to work around, one such suggestion I saw was to change the progression to 0/5/10/15%, this way stage 1 vampires have no cost penalty and stage 4 vampires have a high cost penalty, representing the two sides of the scale between humanity and monstrosity. I believe most of the backlash is due to the fundamental change to what vampire is for ESO (which is the devs intent) On live, the detriments are there, but easily negated, and most people admit to only taking it because of the 10% recovery or the undeath passive. Where as on the PTS that idea is turned on its head, high vampire stages have noticeable detriments and is more suited to people actively seeking a vampiric play style, it cannot be as easily ignored as it were.

Saelent

That’s a terrible way to look at it, an entire skill line just for tanks? Even restoration staffs just aren’t for healers.
If it is only for tanks then there will be even less vampires around.
Why would a tank take a skill that causes for damage to them when they can’t be healed by the healer? Your reasoning makes no sense.

I really hope people keep complaining about the cost because yes, it is just a bit too much right now.

Cellentel

As long as players don’t have a way to “deactivate” the cost increase (say, giving stage 1 no cost increase) without completing curing their vampirism, it will be impossible to use the vampire skills situationally. You’ll always face a (pretty significant) penalty even if you’re gaining no benefits.

You either have to go all in all the time, or you can’t be a vamp at all. Since vamp won’t be worth it for the vast majority of builds, this means that outside of very specialized situations, you can’t be a vamp at all.

The main effect of the current setup is to eliminate choice.

Mortiis13

I will stay vampire with my necromancer and nightblade and built in some skills. (mist and the stun seems a good adjustment for necro) In which state depends on class and if I can sustain it. I love the sprint invisibility ;D (you will never see my magblade again ;D)

Vercingetorix

Saelent wrote: »

That’s a terrible way to look at it, an entire skill line just for tanks? Even restoration staffs just aren’t for healers.
If it is only for tanks then there will be even less vampires around.
Why would a tank take a skill that causes for damage to them when they can’t be healed by the healer? Your reasoning makes no sense.

I really hope people keep complaining about the cost because yes, it is just a bit too much right now.

The tank has a vampire skill that heals a massive amount of hp, scaling with the tank’s hp. Have you even tested the changes? I have and can attest to the dps potential of vampire stage 4 for tank characters who need a dps option when not tanking, such as questing or pvp without needing to change too much of their setup.

Vercingetorix

Cellentel wrote: »

As long as players don’t have a way to “deactivate” the cost increase (say, giving stage 1 no cost increase) without completing curing their vampirism, it will be impossible to use the vampire skills situationally. You’ll always face a (pretty significant) penalty even if you’re gaining no benefits.

You either have to go all in all the time, or you can’t be a vamp at all. Since vamp won’t be worth it for the vast majority of builds, this means that outside of very specialized situations, you can’t be a vamp at all.

The main effect of the current setup is to eliminate choice.

My necro tank can sustain just fine at stage 1 when actually tanking. I hardly feel the penalty and can still access mist or the drain for extra defense or heals. Necro has ways to bypass the penalty as a tank such as Reusable Parts for the Ghost or the Tether spells not having any cost to begin with.

Nightblades, Wardens, and Templars also have ways to bypass the penalty when tanking at stage 1 so it’s not only Necros that benefit from Vampirism.

ShadowHvo

It goes completely against the whole fantasy of the Vampire.

Vampires aren't simple a magicka werewolf, or a magicka tank as you put it. They're capable at being equally skilled mages, rogues and warriors.

Remember, vampirism is a state of being, not a class. This penalty goes utterly against build diversity, and will effectively ruin it.

It should receive another far more fitting weakness instead, that doesn't null the 100+ abilities ESO has available.

Vercingetorix

ShadowHvo wrote: »

It goes completely against the whole fantasy of the Vampire.

Vampires aren't simple a magicka werewolf, or a magicka tank as you put it. They're capable at being equally skilled mages, rogues and warriors.

Remember, vampirism is a state of being, not a class. This penalty goes utterly against build diversity, and will effectively ruin it.

It should receive another far more fitting weakness instead, that doesn't null the 100+ abilities ESO has available.

ZoS will not likely revert vampire changes so if you’re holding out on that, you’re in for disappointment. PTS is to find and squash bugs, not completely rewrite content changes you don’t like. You’d think after 6 years the community would have learned this lesson.

MotownMurder

You say when a tank needs to actually tank, they can "easily" downgrade to stage 1? Does waiting 12 real time hours to go from 4 to 1 count as "easy" to you? Or is every vampire going to need to know the Double Bloody Mara recipe in your view

jaws343

ShadowHvo wrote: »

It goes completely against the whole fantasy of the Vampire.

Vampires aren't simple a magicka werewolf, or a magicka tank as you put it. They're capable at being equally skilled mages, rogues and warriors.

Remember, vampirism is a state of being, not a class. This penalty goes utterly against build diversity, and will effectively ruin it.

It should receive another far more fitting weakness instead, that doesn't null the 100+ abilities ESO has available.

Right, because every mag player, and some stam players, taking vampirism for 2 passives was promoting build diversity.

Vercingetorix

MotownMurder wrote: »

You say when a tank needs to actually tank, they can "easily" downgrade to stage 1? Does waiting 12 real time hours to go from 4 to 1 count as "easy" to you?

There are new furnishings that allow a player to adjust their stage freely. A fountain can be used to lower your stage and a reusable thrall can be fed upon at your discretion, all from the safety of your home. In addition, ZoS changed the Mara drinks to behave differently.

Caelc

so how are you going to use things like wall on your back bar when it costs 5k, or cures.

The problem is, what the costs do is basically make you fill your bar with skills that just give you stats and never use them.

I understand what they are trying to do but as usually, they failed miserably. level 1 should be a small cost, maybe the 5 percent, but as you level up to 4, imo it should disappear.

ShadowHvo

jaws343 wrote: »

ShadowHvo wrote: »

It goes completely against the whole fantasy of the Vampire.

Vampires aren't simple a magicka werewolf, or a magicka tank as you put it. They're capable at being equally skilled mages, rogues and warriors.

Remember, vampirism is a state of being, not a class. This penalty goes utterly against build diversity, and will effectively ruin it.

It should receive another far more fitting weakness instead, that doesn't null the 100+ abilities ESO has available.

Right, because every mag player, and some stam players, taking vampirism for 2 passives was promoting build diversity.

So you think an even worse and more flawed system is better than an already flawed system?

Noice.

Vercingetorix

Caelc wrote: »

so how are you going to use things like wall on your back bar when it costs 5k, or cures.

The problem is, what the costs do is basically make you fill your bar with skills that just give you stats and never use them.

I understand what they are trying to do but as usually, they failed miserably. level 1 should be a small cost, maybe the 5 percent, but as you level up to 4, imo it should disappear.

You are still trying to use a traditional dps setup with vampirism - that no longer works. People use New Moon and can handle a 5% increase just fine. Stage 1 is no different than using New Moon, except instead of some stats you get an entire skill line of skills that could be used if you wanted. Reread the vampire skills - most of them cater to builds with high hp pools (tanks).

ShadowHvo

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Reread the vampire skills - most of them cater to builds with high hp pools (tanks).

Again, this goes against the fantasy of the vampire.

They're not a class, its a state of being, far more akin to a race than a class.

That is not reflected in one weakness, which really offsets the whole balance and frankly ruins it all together.

daemonor

[snip] Zos stated that vampires should revolve around stealth speed and surprise attacks - literally 0 aspects of tanking and ironically 100% identical to one gank boi.

If it worked out benificially for tanks then so be it, but then they completely missed the mark or lied willingly and it's on their part for giving players false hopes, not the player's that don't wanna adapt vampires to tanking cause that's not what was promised in the first place.

[edited for bashing]

Vercingetorix

daemonor wrote: »

[snip] Zos stated that vampires should revolve around stealth speed and surprise attacks - literally 0 aspects of tanking and ironically 100% identical to one gank boi.

If it worked out benificially for tanks then so be it, but then they completely missed the mark or lied willingly and it's on their part for giving players false hopes, not the player's that don't wanna adapt vampires to tanking cause that's not what was promised in the first place.

ZoS changed their vision on the Vampire in ESO. Vampire is different now and requires you to build around it to take full advantage of it. As I said earlier in my post there are options to replicate the stealth bonuses without having to deal with vampire penalties.

Vercingetorix

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Reread the vampire skills - most of them cater to builds with high hp pools (tanks).

Again, this goes against the fantasy of the vampire.

They're not a class, its a state of being, far more akin to a race than a class.

That is not reflected in one weakness, which really offsets the whole balance and frankly ruins it all together.

No, it goes against your idea of how it should work. ZoS clearly disagrees with your opinion and wants Vampire to be a real choice that requires sacrifice and some building around it in order to take full advantage of it. If you don’t like the new vampire, go talk to a priest of Arkay. Problem solved. PTS is for bug fixes, not overhauling content changes introduced in week 1. This new vampire is going to Live no matter how much you complain - embrace the changes and adapt or cure yourself.

ShadowHvo

Vercingetorix wrote: »

No, it goes against your idea of how it should work. ZoS clearly disagrees with your opinion and wants Vampire to be a real choice that requires sacrifice and some building around it in order to take full advantage of it. If you don’t like the new vampire, go talk to a priest of Arkay. Problem solved. PTS is for bug fixes, not overhauling content changes introduced in week 1. This new vampire is going to Live no matter how much you complain - embrace the changes and adapt or cure yourself.

You're literally wrong, but that is okay.

ZoS clearly doesn't disagree, ZoS have just overtuned it, as they've done many times before.

We'll see this fall in line soon enough, don't you worry.

MotownMurder

In any case, I think "magicka tanks who want to off dps" is too narrow of a category to restrict vampirism to. I very much doubt that ZOS honestly thinks "only magicka tanks should use vampirism once greymoor launches", especially since if that's their thought process, why did they include all the stealth perks and other things tanks will take absolutely no benefit from? If that is the case, though, then players would have good cause to take issue with it imo.

For what it's worth, I've also found that the cost increases are not so crippling as long as you build around them. On the other hand, I'm also not a magicka tank, so if ZOS doesn't want someone like me to stay a vampire, they better say something soon!

Vercingetorix

MotownMurder wrote: »

In any case, I think "magicka tanks who want to off dps" is too narrow of a category to restrict vampirism to. I very much doubt that ZOS honestly thinks "only magicka tanks should use vampirism once greymoor launches", especially since if that's their thought process, why did they include all the stealth perks and other things tanks will take absolutely no benefit from? If that is the case, though, then players would have good cause to take issue with it imo.

For what it's worth, I've also found that the cost increases are not so crippling as long as you build around them. On the other hand, I'm also not a magicka tank, so if ZOS doesn't want someone like me to stay a vampire, they better say something soon!

The vampire ability cost reduction mimics the benefits of Light Armor. Vampire skills scale off of max health. Sprint cost reduction and Sneak bonus mimic Light and Medium Armor perks. Essentially vampire passives allow a heavy armor character (typically a tank) an alternative magicka-based dps option. Other setups can use vampire, of course - I was merely illustrating how well vampire rewards high-health tanks with the passives and skills.

darthgummibear_ESO

I wonder if this guy is getting paid for belittling everyone who thinks he's nuts.

usmcjdking

I don't see how these vamp changes change build diversity negatively, at all. The current premise of the vampire skill line in PVE at the moment is a negative one - you are basically punished for NOT being a vamp, which means being a vamp holds nothing of value or worth - it is the standard.

Good changes. Need more Nosferatu and Brujah vampires instead of Twilight.

Vercingetorix

usmcjdking wrote: »

I don't see how these vamp changes change build diversity negatively, at all. The current premise of the vampire skill line in PVE at the moment is a negative one - you are basically punished for NOT being a vamp, which means being a vamp holds nothing of value or worth - it is the standard.

Good changes. Need more Nosferatu and Brujah vampires instead of Twilight.

Agreed and to be fair, most of the complaints about the new vampire are coming from folks who are more mad at the fact they can’t brute-force new Vampirism into their cookie-cutter setup. They have to adapt. These changes will hit live and life will go on, just as it always does. I am looking forward to these changes. Vampire Tank is surprisingly strong in VMA and stage 1 is manageable for actual tanking.

Lughlongarm

I agree. Seems balance to me. stage 4 vemp mist costs like nothing, even the toggle buff is manageable. This cannot co-exist without a strong penalty. stage 1 vemp setup can work for vemp skill dipping.

darthgummibear_ESO

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I agree. Seems balance to me. stage 4 vemp mist costs like nothing, even the toggle buff is manageable. This cannot co-exist without a strong penalty. stage 1 vemp setup can work for vemp skill dipping.

And what if you are stamina?

usmcjdking

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I agree. Seems balance to me. stage 4 vemp mist costs like nothing, even the toggle buff is manageable. This cannot co-exist without a strong penalty. stage 1 vemp setup can work for vemp skill dipping.

And what if you are stamina?

You don't need resources with a 24k DSwing tooltip.

Wavek

I just wandered around a delve on my vampire (magblade). I replaced all but soul siphon on my front bar w/ vampire skills. I actually found it pretty fun. I used soul siphon if I needed a health boost but being able to stun groups of enemies briefly then lay into them with vampire skills was great. I wasnt using any food/drink and never had a resource issue.

YandereGirlfriend

In this thread are many vampires who grown accustomed to the previous, cost-free lifestyle.

Especially for Magicka characters, vampirism was a straight-up upgrade over being mortal, which is simply awful from a design perspective.

This is one of the few choices that I actually approve of from this patch: vampirism is no longer the automatic upgrade that it used to be. You have to actually plan for it and commit to making it a part of your build. In other words, it has benefits and costs and that is what interesting choices are made of.

Is 20% too high? Perhaps, perhaps not. Personally, I liked the idea of 0-15%.

Lughlongarm

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I agree. Seems balance to me. stage 4 vemp mist costs like nothing, even the toggle buff is manageable. This cannot co-exist without a strong penalty. stage 1 vemp setup can work for vemp skill dipping.

And what if you are stamina?

Going full stamina vamp(stage 4) this patch is like going magicka build on a WW. You can do it, but should you?
You have options if really want to.
Sets like Prisoner's Rags could be interesting with the sprint theme.
Redguard + Daring Corsair Set will reduce weapon skills by 20% - stamian use lots of weapon skills.

Just some initial ideas before I even started to theory craft around it.

The basic concept is that vaps will have to get used to the idea that this is no more a dipping spec. This something you need to build into in order to be effective. Kinda like what WW have been doing for years now.