Supernatural Recovery

  • Vevvev
    Vevvev
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    Tessitura wrote: »

    Oh yeah it can easily bite you in the ass, but because you can turn it on and off, it becomes a test of your game sense and situational awareness, if you die because of it, its because you picked the wrong moment to use it, high risk high reward, and you failing is ultimately down to your ability to use the ability.

    Yeah, what if they made it instead take 50-75% less healing from other people instead? That way the poor PVE healers don't feel completely useless when they encounter a not-so-skilled vampire living on the edge, And of course apply that % based debuff on the remaining healing value after all the other debuffs so it doesn't butcher the person in PVP. Or maybe they should... I hate theory crafting about things I cannot test yet.
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • drkfrontiers
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    The only this ZOS has accomplished with the vampire rebuild is a trip to the cure for me. Well done ZOS. You nailed it again.

    Why on earth would I want to run around with a gimped character than needs to be nurse-maided ever 5 mins.

    Edited by drkfrontiers on April 4, 2020 10:43PM
    "One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star."
    ~ Friedrich Nietzsche
  • StShoot
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    Vevvev wrote: »
    Chrlynsch wrote: »

    Because some of those passives are very powerful is some Situations. It's your choice if the curse's gift is worth the drawbacks. But let's at least test it before demanding changes.

    As a MagDK I stand my ground and fight. My DK passives will boost the melee range vampire ability and then my superior class healing skills, and rapid regen on healing staff, will keep my alive as I draw from the benefits of that one ability that gives me power.

    Vampire is basically a beefed up version of NMA without having to really do anything to keep it up. I could care less about the passives since they don't favor an in your face warrior like myself.

    Dont forget the absolut horrible sustain for mag dks in pvp. mag Dk cant take another 10% cost increase ( i say another because some of its main abilitys got pretty cost heavy during the last patches). Moreover dont get to closly involved with rapid regen or hots in general, with all the whining going on they will probably nerfed by 60% (zos favourite number ).

    But back to the topic: In the live game you have a risk reward system, and for the most classes the current risk is to high, thats why we barly see any vampire in cyrodiil and thats why zos decided that vamps need a rework.
    With the next patch my mag dk (or any other class) will loose and incredible amount of sustain, if they become vamp in order to get some skills that are either allready in my classcit (stuns/spamable) or are way to risky to use (toggle). the only atractive skill in there is the mistform and the dmg reduction passive, but its not worth paying the price.
  • OmniDo
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    Icky wrote: »
    Edward Cullen doesn't burn up in sunlight though.
    We don't talk about the toilet sparkly stupid meyer series here.
    Those books should have been used as kindling and lit aflame [Snip]

    [Edited for inappropriate content]
    Edited by ZOS_Volpe on May 5, 2020 2:44PM
  • Sasha1378
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    To me, the main problem with the current PTS build vampire is the Regen. Vampires are by essence bound to blood, it's their main source of energy. Therefore, the stages for the Regen debuff should be inverted. I feel like a vampire Regen should be close to normal (albeit a little lower, because they are undead) when they are sated (stage 4), and close to none when they are starved (stage 1).

    It would make it more logical, and wouldn't interfere with the remake idea of a humanity trade for vampiric powers.

    It's quite puzzling why they made a sated vampire have no Regen except the criminal ultimate and some strong but also criminal spells/abilities. I mean, why make it illegal? To RP the fact they heal on blood? It may be a simplistic opinion but I think that forbidding a vampire to heal on enemies is quite frankly stupid. On allies? Ok. But on enemies...

    This whole criminal abilities thing they introduced with the Necromancer is weird to me. That or it's not pushed far enough. Like, make it so some stuffs are illegal in cyrodiil when used on one of the two opposing faction. But not on NPCs who are attacking you and your allies anyway, like opposing factions in other regions. I mean, it's weird enough you can't help but side with your enemy while in their side of Tamriel (quests n such are for the Dominion in Dominion territory, even if you are not Dominion yourself). You often attack NPCs from your own realm when abroad in this game. So adding a layer which dictates your actions on top of this nonsense IS nonsensical. All the people who have played vampire until now can't have abilities that will be considered illegal from now on. At least on a new thing in-game like a Necromancer it had some sense. But not on an already existing character, with time invested in it, and money too (for some at least).

    These are my 2 cents on the matter. :tongue:

    EDIT: sorry for the necro. I stumbled on this post by googling, not by topic from the forum's board.
    Edited by Sasha1378 on May 5, 2020 1:25AM
  • Pauls
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    Solution to +20% skill cost increase: use only vamp skills and free skills (like ele drain, meditate, netch, etc) or skills that you slot for passives, boost your damage and then you'll be true vampire with huge benefits. Get your coffin ready for some vamp action.
  • barney2525
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    TheFM wrote: »
    Copied from another post

    Im generally ok with everything that is being done. But the cost increase is insane. Vampires are in lore masters of magic and combat. The Health regen debuff, removal of resource increase, and health regen debuffs are way more than enough downside to taking vampirism.

    The way it is now with the cost increase flies in the face of what ZoS mission statement of trying to increase the variation of builds and build diversity. This will force -everyone- to use ONLY the vampire skills. It will destroy magicka toons across the board.

    Our abilities already cost more than Stamina abilities
    Our abilities are already weaker by default than stamina abilities
    Regen is MUCH more important for magicka builds

    This will also shoehorn magicka classes, who by nature are more ranged than stamina, to fight in close quarter combat. How on earth am I supposed to play a vampire magsorc? A loss of 10 percent of my resource recovery, an increase of 20 percent cost for all my abiltiies ( this includes ultimates too ) and a loss of 78 percent of my damage from my light attacks will not only cripple my mag sorc, it will cripple my mag dk, AND my magblade as well. This absolutely destroys any build diversity when it comes to vampire toons.

    I can deal with the light attack changes if they follow @code65536 's suggestions, I can deal with the loss of the 10 percent regen, but this cost increase to my abilities....as a vamp player since day 1 because I LOVE vampires in general, will be the straw that breaks the camels back. The nail in the coffin. The last straw.

    If the cost increase of normal abilities goes through, I will see no choice but to simply play 1 toon, because all my toons will be using the same ultis, and the same skills 50 percent of the time.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno , The mission statement is " play how you want ", but this, this is not that. You simply cannot be viable with an increase of 20 percent to all your active abilities. Neither in pvp, or pve. If this goes through itll be " play how you want, unless youre a vampire, then you HAVE to use these skills " .

    ALSO, the removal of the ability to use skins is COMPLETELY unacceptable. I spent a LOT of money of the years trying to get certain skins, and for them to just say, oh well , now..... thats beyond reprehensible.

    That is in no way balanced. Werewolf does not have half of the negatives vampires will get. See Above post.

    We cant use skins now? Oof

    Agreed. THAT for me sux worse than everything else.

    If they don't want vampires in the game, why not just remove them?

    IMHO

    :#
  • Thevampirenight
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    barney2525 wrote: »
    TheFM wrote: »
    Copied from another post

    Im generally ok with everything that is being done. But the cost increase is insane. Vampires are in lore masters of magic and combat. The Health regen debuff, removal of resource increase, and health regen debuffs are way more than enough downside to taking vampirism.

    The way it is now with the cost increase flies in the face of what ZoS mission statement of trying to increase the variation of builds and build diversity. This will force -everyone- to use ONLY the vampire skills. It will destroy magicka toons across the board.

    Our abilities already cost more than Stamina abilities
    Our abilities are already weaker by default than stamina abilities
    Regen is MUCH more important for magicka builds

    This will also shoehorn magicka classes, who by nature are more ranged than stamina, to fight in close quarter combat. How on earth am I supposed to play a vampire magsorc? A loss of 10 percent of my resource recovery, an increase of 20 percent cost for all my abiltiies ( this includes ultimates too ) and a loss of 78 percent of my damage from my light attacks will not only cripple my mag sorc, it will cripple my mag dk, AND my magblade as well. This absolutely destroys any build diversity when it comes to vampire toons.

    I can deal with the light attack changes if they follow @code65536 's suggestions, I can deal with the loss of the 10 percent regen, but this cost increase to my abilities....as a vamp player since day 1 because I LOVE vampires in general, will be the straw that breaks the camels back. The nail in the coffin. The last straw.

    If the cost increase of normal abilities goes through, I will see no choice but to simply play 1 toon, because all my toons will be using the same ultis, and the same skills 50 percent of the time.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno , The mission statement is " play how you want ", but this, this is not that. You simply cannot be viable with an increase of 20 percent to all your active abilities. Neither in pvp, or pve. If this goes through itll be " play how you want, unless youre a vampire, then you HAVE to use these skills " .

    ALSO, the removal of the ability to use skins is COMPLETELY unacceptable. I spent a LOT of money of the years trying to get certain skins, and for them to just say, oh well , now..... thats beyond reprehensible.

    That is in no way balanced. Werewolf does not have half of the negatives vampires will get. See Above post.

    We cant use skins now? Oof

    Agreed. THAT for me sux worse than everything else.

    If they don't want vampires in the game, why not just remove them?

    IMHO

    :#

    Skins work the way they do on live when it comes to vampirism. Thing is Npcs will still know that you look like a stage four vampire even with the skin on. So it isn't much good in tricking them by wearing it they can still tell.
    PC NA
    Please add Fangs to Vampires.
  • barney2525
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    barney2525 wrote: »
    TheFM wrote: »
    Copied from another post

    Im generally ok with everything that is being done. But the cost increase is insane. Vampires are in lore masters of magic and combat. The Health regen debuff, removal of resource increase, and health regen debuffs are way more than enough downside to taking vampirism.

    The way it is now with the cost increase flies in the face of what ZoS mission statement of trying to increase the variation of builds and build diversity. This will force -everyone- to use ONLY the vampire skills. It will destroy magicka toons across the board.

    Our abilities already cost more than Stamina abilities
    Our abilities are already weaker by default than stamina abilities
    Regen is MUCH more important for magicka builds

    This will also shoehorn magicka classes, who by nature are more ranged than stamina, to fight in close quarter combat. How on earth am I supposed to play a vampire magsorc? A loss of 10 percent of my resource recovery, an increase of 20 percent cost for all my abiltiies ( this includes ultimates too ) and a loss of 78 percent of my damage from my light attacks will not only cripple my mag sorc, it will cripple my mag dk, AND my magblade as well. This absolutely destroys any build diversity when it comes to vampire toons.

    I can deal with the light attack changes if they follow @code65536 's suggestions, I can deal with the loss of the 10 percent regen, but this cost increase to my abilities....as a vamp player since day 1 because I LOVE vampires in general, will be the straw that breaks the camels back. The nail in the coffin. The last straw.

    If the cost increase of normal abilities goes through, I will see no choice but to simply play 1 toon, because all my toons will be using the same ultis, and the same skills 50 percent of the time.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno , The mission statement is " play how you want ", but this, this is not that. You simply cannot be viable with an increase of 20 percent to all your active abilities. Neither in pvp, or pve. If this goes through itll be " play how you want, unless youre a vampire, then you HAVE to use these skills " .

    ALSO, the removal of the ability to use skins is COMPLETELY unacceptable. I spent a LOT of money of the years trying to get certain skins, and for them to just say, oh well , now..... thats beyond reprehensible.

    That is in no way balanced. Werewolf does not have half of the negatives vampires will get. See Above post.

    We cant use skins now? Oof

    Agreed. THAT for me sux worse than everything else.

    If they don't want vampires in the game, why not just remove them?

    IMHO

    :#

    Skins work the way they do on live when it comes to vampirism. Thing is Npcs will still know that you look like a stage four vampire even with the skin on. So it isn't much good in tricking them by wearing it they can still tell.

    OK

    But it still makes no sense whatsoever. In EVERY vampire genre, the vampire is skilled in blending in, walking among the mortals without their notice, interacting socially with them without them suspecting anything. Whether it's from the 'you don't age from the time you were made into a vampire' aspect, or using obfuscation or whatever the specific genre applies, vampires interact with normal people easily, without being noticed as vampires.

    Except in ESO. Where vampires, who never age, still get really ugly physically the older they get. And forget interacting with mortals because mortals automatically know you are a vampire?

    Well, they came up with their own vampire for this game. Not sure its a good one.

    IMHO

    :#
  • Varana
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    Sasha1378 wrote: »
    I mean, why make it illegal? To RP the fact they heal on blood? It may be a simplistic opinion but I think that forbidding a vampire to heal on enemies is quite frankly stupid. On allies? Ok. But on enemies...

    Like with all video game systems, the Justice system is an approximation and gamification of a real-world phenomenon, not a simulation. As such, it is imperfect, and guided by gaming concerns and technical limitations.
    The game roughly assumes that in cities and among neutral NPCs, you're among friends, and everywhere else, among enemies. So your feeding is only illegal if a neutral NPC witnesses it (and cares - e.g., companions in dungeons don't, afaik). You don't incur a bounty if you feed on enemies, itself.
    The system is fuzzy at the edges (when you have enemies in town, or neutral NPCs in enemy areas who report your crime, for whatever reason), but that's videogame reality. You're not forbidden to heal on enemies. You're just not supposed to have enemies around in areas where feeding gets registered as a crime.
  • RavemasterCrow
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    Copying from a couple different forums with a little editing because tempers were running high there and I don't want Zos comin' for me.
    Yeah, who cares about Vampires having a history in TES of being Stronger, Faster, more skilled in magic AND battle than basically anyone other than maybe werewolves?

    Who cares about the history of them getting ridiculous +20 to Strength, Willpower, and Speed stats. Screw +20 to Blade, Heavy Armor, Unarmored, Hand to Hand, Athletics, Acrobatics, Sneak, Destruction, Mysticism, and Illusion?

    Who cares the 2 Morrowind Clans that focused on Stealth and Assassination or straight up BATTLE?

    Who cares about the Oblivion Vampirism that still gave bonuses to melee builds and weren't just focused on being magicka characters with a restrictive skill line?

    Who cares the Normal Vampires from Skyrim that got all sorts of passive bonuses to all playstyles and was only forced into a narrow "Vampire Only" skill tree when in a TOGGLE VAMPIRE LORD FORM?

    Who cares the Pre-Greymoor ESO Vampires that had bonuses to all skill build types (obviously, or you and others wouldn't keep complaining how you 'HAD' to be a vampire for the extra 10% Stam&Mag recovery)?

    Hell, previous games before Skyrim even gave Vampires RESISTANCE of up to 50% against non-silvered weapons, and a 20%-50% increase in resistance to Frost. Which would literally make them unstoppable in ESO unless people used the Fighter's Guild tree.

    What we're looking at getting in Greymoor is Skyrim's Vampire Lord, without the toggle. Where Vampires will objectively become a niche build that may or may not wind up being competitive or useful in content outside of overland or normal dungeons.


    1) Drain can't be used while blocking - meaning even tanks will struggle to find it useful with all the new Vampiric Drawbacks, a 3 second channel that you literally can't mitigate with. And will require kiting so you don't take more damage than you heal.

    2) Mist form can't be reliably block canceled and will require people to jump their hotbars often to use it for effective mitigation, which people are already doing - but unless you're going to front AND back bar your other Vampire Abilities, you'll lose stuff like Frenzy to swap to drop the form.

    3) Eviscerate and Blood Frenzy both walk a razor's edge between being marginally useful and a straight up detriment. Especially because it's wonky scaling. Casts with Magicka but scales with Max HP, or costs health to use while you're already actively draining your HP and stopping anyone else from being able to heal you. Not counting it's literally a worse reskin of Venomous Claw without the DoT.

    4) Mesmerize looks amazing and has cool flavor, probably the best new ability we've seen added, but will basically be useless outside solo content or unless you're a tank that can actually HAVE everything looking at you.

    5) Blood Scion is literally Bone Colossus but reskinned for Vampire use, sure it heals you to full upon casting and one of the morphs gets you to ignore the detriments of being a Stage 4 Vampire, but why wouldn't you just slot this as your ultimate, play your build normally with a lower dps rate due to the increased costs and then cast this for 20 seconds of being able to act like you're still a fully functioning character that wasn't gimped by the new skill line coming out?

    The Invisibility while sprinting passive is fun, but basically a glorified upgrade to the Shadow Rider passive from Dark Brotherhood - instead of mounting and gaining 50% detection radius reduction from enemies instead you're standard sprinting and invisible to them. Neat if you've got to get through town with a bounty or navigate through an area with a lot of enemies overland. Or niche if you're trying to gank in PVP.

    Increased spell and weapon damage would be great if that meant you wouldn't have to keep mist on your bar as a DPS to activate it since NB is the only class with an invis. And you wouldn't have to stop using your normal consumable to pick up an Invis potion to make use of it.

    And I haven't done extensive testing on Undeath - so I can't tell you what state it's in for better or worse. But I imagine a flat 30% based on missing HP would probably be worse than a flat 33% while under 50% HP.

    What they're doing is taking a historically UNIVERSAL bonus for all builds and play styles in pretty much literally EVERY TES game that it's made a debut in. And turning it into a Niche solo skill tree that really should have been 3 whole skill trees if they wanted to encourage people to play full Vampirism.

    Give a Tank Tree, DPS Tree, and Healing Tree like NB, Warden, Necro (etc). Fill it with interesting and cool abilities, including the NPC ones that were shown like the bat knockdown dash, the combat stun drain, the AoE blood boil pool. And others.

    THEN you can have a complete toolset and a right to try and tout the "True Vampirism" line you're constantly trying to get other people to buy.

    Right now, it's messy, disjointed abilities, passives that only benefit someone like a MagBlade. And is worse overall than what we have on Live.

    I've literally NEVER cared about people choosing Vampirism for the passive benefits.

    Because guess what, that would be a LEGITIMATE REASON TO CHOOSE VAMPIRISM IRL.

    Mortal: "oh I hate being slow, weak, and prone to dying of old age"

    Vampire: "Have you heard of Vampirism?!"

    M: "No, what's that?"

    V: "Only the cure to all your ails, just one bite and you'll have a bunch of strengths, run farther, jump higher, hit harder, use more potent magic, gain immortality and all for the low low couple of very specific weaknesses"

    M: "SIGN ME UP!".

    Sideeffectsmayinclude: Intolerancetosunlightgarlicsilveredweaponsfire

    Make the punishment for being one more severe sure, they've always had weaknesses like Ambient Sunlight (Pretty impossible in an MMO with such a slow span of Night and Day, given their admission by changing Night Stalker to no longer require night time), 50% Fire Damage taken, Restoration magic used to damage them in some games.

    But this just seems like them taking the pendulum and swinging it wildly in the other direction.

    Unless they do something crazy and make using all Vampire Skills viable for Trials and Veteran Content where you're not just going to get killed because your damage buff makes you only able to heal yourself, you have 0 HP recovery, your spammable is Magicka and Max HP only - and it's better morph crits ONLY while you're under 50% Hp, the Stun only works if your targets are looking AT you. And the Ultimate is a Worse Bone Colossus that will either be:

    A.) 20s (a little less because the initial transformation takes 2s), where you ignore the penalties and can play the game like an actual person on Live currently can.

    B.) Ravenous Colossus, but with only 1/3rd of the HP boost.

    Is someone going to find some crazy specific item/rune/CP combo that makes it LOOK like it works? Probably.

    Will most people wind up just staying Stage 1 and taking 1 or 2 abilities like they already did on Live so that they can still run endgame content without being laughed at by their groups? That's the more likely outcome.
    Recovery for Stamina AND Magicka by 10% - you can argue and say how this made it 'necessary' for EVERYONE to be a Vampire, therefore it's bad. But I'd say that you're telling people to use sets to mitigate around this could be applied to current live game and if you wanted the 10% recovery, just use a recovery set and let Vampires have cool things. They're SUPPOSED to be better in some ways than normal people. Not just blanket worse.

    They're also losing Unnatural Resistance - which lowered the penalties for the higher stages, and actually made playing them bearable for most people. And if it was still part of the tree, it might not be as big of an issue as it is now. Since Stage 4 Vamps would only have a 50% Hp recovery reduction rather than a flat 0 percent.

    Literally the only positive of having a Stage 4 vampire is the reduction in costs for Vampire abilities.

    On live, as a Stage 4 - Breton Vampire:

    50% HP recovery reduction
    25% more Fire Damage taken
    21% Reduced Costs for Vampire Skill Line abilities
    10% Increased Stamina and Magicka Recovery.
    33% Damage Reduction under 50% HP

    On PTS, as a Stage 4 - Breton Vampire:

    100% Hp recovery reduction
    20% more Fire Damage taken
    40% Reduced Costs for Vampire Skill line abilities
    20% Increased Costs for Non-Vampire skills
    30% Damage Reduction based on missing HP
    300 Weapon and Spell damage after leaving Stealth
    Sprinting costs 50% less and turns you invisible so long as you're sprinting for 3 seconds.

    While you technically get "more" positives, because 2 of them were added for Greymoor.

    They also increased HP recovery reduction by 50% (to a forced 0, you literally can't recover HP without potions or healing)

    20% Increased costs for using ANY ability that isn't from the Vampire skill line. Including Weapon skills, which hurts melee builds that aren't going to use solely Eviscerate as their spammable.

    A less useful Damage Reduction.

    And some highly situation passives that mostly benefit characters like Nightblades (which have a reliable stealth that ISN'T just Vampiric Mist block cancelling), and a sprinting passive that is great if you're one of those people that likes to just run past stuff or maybe get out of town if you've got a bounty.


    So, you get a big selection of nerfs to your character overall. A skill line that basically forces you into playing a Magicka character to take full effect of it. And some niche flavor abilities that won't come in handy in most content.

    Sure, you get some fun new abilities - but when you try and apply most of those to content that people play Vampires in. PvP, Trials, Veteran Mode instances?

    You've got a stun that only works if your enemies are looking at YOU, you get a damage buff that costs you HP and one that makes you only able to heal yourself.

    A Magicka spammable for MELEE that scales with max HP.

    Essentially the Same Drain, and same Vampiric Mist (Granted it now heals instead of JUST damaging with the Baleful morph).

    It's not good man. At least for people you claim don't really exist, those of us that ACTUALLY play Vampire. Not just used it for the 10% recovery passive.
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