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Supernatural Recovery

propertyOfUndefined
propertyOfUndefined
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I know things aren't final yet, but am I correct in understanding that, based on what we know so far, not only will vampires lose the Supernatural Recovery passive (Increased magicka and stamina recovery), but that non-vampire abilities will increase in cost as you go up in stages?

Uhm... Ouch?
  • olsborg
    olsborg
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    Stage 4 = 20% cost increase on any skill not in the vampire trees.

    PC EU
    PvP only
  • Emma_Overload
    Emma_Overload
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    olsborg wrote: »
    Stage 4 = 20% cost increase on any skill not in the vampire trees.

    WOW. That's insane. I thought it would be 5% at the worst. Where is the damage increase to justify this extra cost?
    #CAREBEARMASTERRACE
  • Thevampirenight
    Thevampirenight
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    olsborg wrote: »
    Stage 4 = 20% cost increase on any skill not in the vampire trees.

    WOW. That's insane. I thought it would be 5% at the worst. Where is the damage increase to justify this extra cost?

    I believe its the new passives and to balance them out.
    When you leave Sneak, invisibility, or Mist Form you Spell Damage is increased by x for 6 seconds.
    then there is this one.

    While you are at Vampire Stage 4

    Reduces the cost of Sprint by 50%.

    If you continuously Sprint for 3 seconds you automatically become invisible.

    Then of course there is the undeath passive.
    Basically three good passives one great for spell casters one great for tanking and one great for ganking or gettting away.

    Allows you to feed on an unsuspecting target, killing them increasing your Vampire Stage. Higher Stages make you a strong Vampire at the cost of your humanity. Stages decrease over long periods of time.

    Stage 1/2/3/4

    Health Recovery: -10%/-40%/-70%/-100%

    Flame Damage Taken: +5%/+10%/+15%/+20%

    Regular Ability Costs: +5%/+10%/+15%/+20%

    Vampire Ability Costs: -10%/-20%/-30%/-40%
    These numbers will be likely be changed up by the greymoor pts build but they could be the same as well.
    By the looks of it they want vampires to have enough draw backs so everyone doesn't become them for their passives and abilties.
    So these were taken from an older version of the greymoor build it was one they allowed players to access to but it was not the recent one from what I'm understanding so these numbers are likely not final. Or even would be the actual numbers.
    So we will have to wait and see.
    Edited by Thevampirenight on March 31, 2020 9:48PM
    PC NA
    Please add Fangs to Vampires.
  • propertyOfUndefined
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    So any build that used to use vampire for the passive recovery will get the opposite effect now — a 5 percent increase even at the lowest stage?
  • JinMori
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    Ok, disclaimer, zos told the testers that they should grey out numbers because they were not balanced, but someone, do not know who it is, didn't and so, here we are with the 20 % cost.

    But it's extremely unlikely it will go through like that.
  • TheFM
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    Copied from another post

    Im generally ok with everything that is being done. But the cost increase is insane. Vampires are in lore masters of magic and combat. The Health regen debuff, removal of resource increase, and health regen debuffs are way more than enough downside to taking vampirism.

    The way it is now with the cost increase flies in the face of what ZoS mission statement of trying to increase the variation of builds and build diversity. This will force -everyone- to use ONLY the vampire skills. It will destroy magicka toons across the board.

    Our abilities already cost more than Stamina abilities
    Our abilities are already weaker by default than stamina abilities
    Regen is MUCH more important for magicka builds

    This will also shoehorn magicka classes, who by nature are more ranged than stamina, to fight in close quarter combat. How on earth am I supposed to play a vampire magsorc? A loss of 10 percent of my resource recovery, an increase of 20 percent cost for all my abiltiies ( this includes ultimates too ) and a loss of 78 percent of my damage from my light attacks will not only cripple my mag sorc, it will cripple my mag dk, AND my magblade as well. This absolutely destroys any build diversity when it comes to vampire toons.

    I can deal with the light attack changes if they follow @code65536 's suggestions, I can deal with the loss of the 10 percent regen, but this cost increase to my abilities....as a vamp player since day 1 because I LOVE vampires in general, will be the straw that breaks the camels back. The nail in the coffin. The last straw.

    If the cost increase of normal abilities goes through, I will see no choice but to simply play 1 toon, because all my toons will be using the same ultis, and the same skills 50 percent of the time.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno , The mission statement is " play how you want ", but this, this is not that. You simply cannot be viable with an increase of 20 percent to all your active abilities. Neither in pvp, or pve. If this goes through itll be " play how you want, unless youre a vampire, then you HAVE to use these skills " .

    ALSO, the removal of the ability to use skins is COMPLETELY unacceptable. I spent a LOT of money of the years trying to get certain skins, and for them to just say, oh well , now..... thats beyond reprehensible.
    olsborg wrote: »
    Stage 4 = 20% cost increase on any skill not in the vampire trees.

    WOW. That's insane. I thought it would be 5% at the worst. Where is the damage increase to justify this extra cost?

    I believe its the new passives and to balance them out.
    When you leave Sneak, invisibility, or Mist Form you Spell Damage is increased by x for 6 seconds.
    then there is this one.

    While you are at Vampire Stage 4

    Reduces the cost of Sprint by 50%.

    If you continuously Sprint for 3 seconds you automatically become invisible.

    Then of course there is the undeath passive.
    Basically three good passives one great for spell casters one great for tanking and one great for ganking or gettting away.

    Allows you to feed on an unsuspecting target, killing them increasing your Vampire Stage. Higher Stages make you a strong Vampire at the cost of your humanity. Stages decrease over long periods of time.

    Stage 1/2/3/4

    Health Recovery: -10%/-40%/-70%/-100%

    Flame Damage Taken: +5%/+10%/+15%/+20%

    Regular Ability Costs: +5%/+10%/+15%/+20%

    Vampire Ability Costs: -10%/-20%/-30%/-40%
    These numbers will be likely be changed up by the greymoor pts build but they could be the same as well.
    By the looks of it they want vampires to have enough draw backs so everyone doesn't become them for their passives and abilties.
    So these were taken from an older version of the greymoor build it was one they allowed players to access to but it was not the recent one from what I'm understanding so these numbers are likely not final. Or even would be the actual numbers.
    So we will have to wait and see.

    That is in no way balanced. Werewolf does not have half of the negatives vampires will get. See Above post.
  • TX12001rwb17_ESO
    TX12001rwb17_ESO
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    Why would the Vampire stop healing the more powerful they become?
  • Sanctum74
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    Almost like they are intentionally trying to ruin their game :/
  • Thevampirenight
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    JinMori wrote: »
    Ok, disclaimer, zos told the testers that they should grey out numbers because they were not balanced, but someone, do not know who it is, didn't and so, here we are with the 20 % cost.

    But it's extremely unlikely it will go through like that.

    Yep I think that is how it will be.
    PC NA
    Please add Fangs to Vampires.
  • AMeanOne
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    I'm sure the numbers will change but I still don't like the idea of increasing the cost of non vamp abilities. It would be nice to finally have a good cc on magcro and magden but not if the cost increase stays anywhere near 20%
  • Bobby_V_Rockit
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    TheFM wrote: »
    Copied from another post

    Im generally ok with everything that is being done. But the cost increase is insane. Vampires are in lore masters of magic and combat. The Health regen debuff, removal of resource increase, and health regen debuffs are way more than enough downside to taking vampirism.

    The way it is now with the cost increase flies in the face of what ZoS mission statement of trying to increase the variation of builds and build diversity. This will force -everyone- to use ONLY the vampire skills. It will destroy magicka toons across the board.

    Our abilities already cost more than Stamina abilities
    Our abilities are already weaker by default than stamina abilities
    Regen is MUCH more important for magicka builds

    This will also shoehorn magicka classes, who by nature are more ranged than stamina, to fight in close quarter combat. How on earth am I supposed to play a vampire magsorc? A loss of 10 percent of my resource recovery, an increase of 20 percent cost for all my abiltiies ( this includes ultimates too ) and a loss of 78 percent of my damage from my light attacks will not only cripple my mag sorc, it will cripple my mag dk, AND my magblade as well. This absolutely destroys any build diversity when it comes to vampire toons.

    I can deal with the light attack changes if they follow @code65536 's suggestions, I can deal with the loss of the 10 percent regen, but this cost increase to my abilities....as a vamp player since day 1 because I LOVE vampires in general, will be the straw that breaks the camels back. The nail in the coffin. The last straw.

    If the cost increase of normal abilities goes through, I will see no choice but to simply play 1 toon, because all my toons will be using the same ultis, and the same skills 50 percent of the time.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno , The mission statement is " play how you want ", but this, this is not that. You simply cannot be viable with an increase of 20 percent to all your active abilities. Neither in pvp, or pve. If this goes through itll be " play how you want, unless youre a vampire, then you HAVE to use these skills " .

    ALSO, the removal of the ability to use skins is COMPLETELY unacceptable. I spent a LOT of money of the years trying to get certain skins, and for them to just say, oh well , now..... thats beyond reprehensible.

    That is in no way balanced. Werewolf does not have half of the negatives vampires will get. See Above post.

    We cant use skins now? Oof
  • TheFM
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    AMeanOne wrote: »
    I'm sure the numbers will change but I still don't like the idea of increasing the cost of non vamp abilities. It would be nice to finally have a good cc on magcro and magden but not if the cost increase stays anywhere near 20%

    There shouldn't be any cost increase what so ever. We are already losing the. Ten percent regen, which should really only be a loss of 5%, since vampires by nature have more stamina and magicka on tes lore, but giving us higher cost on non vampire abilities, a health Regen debuff and more damage from fire is waaaaaaaay too much.
  • propertyOfUndefined
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    TheFM wrote: »
    If the cost increase of normal abilities goes through, I will see no choice but to simply play 1 toon, because all my toons will be using the same ultis, and the same skills 50 percent of the time.

    I completely agree. I currently have multiple vampire characters. Before even reading your post, I was already thinking of getting “cured” on all but 1 if these changes go live.
  • Saelent
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    The resource increase was always why people took vampirism when they had no interest in being vampires. Sad as I am to lose it, fine, take it, but the increase in skill cost? At that percentage there would have to be a massive pay back to the combat capabilities of the character to offset that and a melee attack more suited to roleplayers is not it.

    I love the invisibility sprint and the mist form, but unless I can use mist form as a type of lesser invisibility, I don’t see why I’d ever be let into a trial group if I’m found to be a vampire.

    20% is just too much.

    Edit: in agreement with another poster, why is it even there? The health and fire damage aren’t enough? Raise those!
    Edited by Saelent on March 31, 2020 10:43PM
  • Somers23
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    Saelent wrote: »
    The resource increase was always why people took vampirism when they had no interest in being vampires. Sad as I am to lose it, fine, take it, but the increase in skill cost? At that percentage there would have to be a massive pay back to the combat capabilities of the character to offset that and a melee attack more suited to roleplayers is not it.

    I love the invisibility sprint and the mist form, but unless I can use mist form as a type of lesser invisibility, I don’t see why I’d ever be let into a trial group if I’m found to be a vampire.

    20% is just too much.

    Edit: in agreement with another poster, why is it even there? The health and fire damage aren’t enough? Raise those!

    What do you mean no interest? I used vamp drain, mist form, the ultimate. What else was I not doing?
    Edited by Somers23 on March 31, 2020 11:02PM
  • TheFM
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    Saelent wrote: »
    The resource increase was always why people took vampirism when they had no interest in being vampires. Sad as I am to lose it, fine, take it, but the increase in skill cost? At that percentage there would have to be a massive pay back to the combat capabilities of the character to offset that and a melee attack more suited to roleplayers is not it.

    I love the invisibility sprint and the mist form, but unless I can use mist form as a type of lesser invisibility, I don’t see why I’d ever be let into a trial group if I’m found to be a vampire.

    20% is just too much.

    Edit: in agreement with another poster, why is it even there? The health and fire damage aren’t enough? Raise those!

    Can't quite raise them over 100 percent which is where they are atm. Even those should stay at most where they are on live.

    And yes, the cost increase needs to go, it is simply too prohibitive.

    If they insist on leaving the cost increase, we should get the regen Back, and the cost increase should be no higher than max 5%.

    If we lose the cost increase, they can gladly take the regen and leave the other negative effects as is on live. Otherwise vampire will not be viable in any scenario unless you solely focus on vamp skills, which as mentioned before, fly in the face of build diversity bland play how you want, not to mention lore.
  • Ratzkifal
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    That 20% is probably wrong. Remember what the proposed changes said about Molag Kena?
    8% increased cost is as big of a drawback as 20% reduced cost is a boon.

    So maybe they are going to change that still?
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • TheFM
    TheFM
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    That 20% is probably wrong. Remember what the proposed changes said about Molag Kena?
    8% increased cost is as big of a drawback as 20% reduced cost is a boon.

    So maybe they are going to change that still?

    We can certainly only hope so.
  • ne.ga.kurai_ESO
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    If it's anything more than 1%/2%/3%/4% or 2%/4%/6%/8% they are out of their *** minds. Sustain already makes this game not fun in noCP.
  • idk
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    It will be interesting to see how all this works out. What we will see on the PTS and how we will use what goes live.

    I have vampire on multiple characters. I do use the skills but there is a big loss without supernatural recovery unless thew new passive also increases damage done with all skills along with the cost increase to all skills.

    I do realize much of what we are seeing is preliminary and subject to change before this hits the PTS.
  • TheFM
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    If it's anything more than 1%/2%/3%/4% or 2%/4%/6%/8% they are out of their *** minds. Sustain already makes this game not fun in noCP.

    2-5 would be acceptable, but unnecessary imo. Why do we need THAT many negatives :/ ?

    For magicka vampires then that would be

    78 percent damage reduction to light attacks
    10 percent regen loss
    20 percent cost increase on all non vamp skills
    Fire damage increase
    Health Regen debuff

    Stamina would get with werewolf

    78 percent la damage decrease
    Small increase to poison damage taken

    Not balanced, or fair, at all.

  • ZonasArch
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    olsborg wrote: »
    Stage 4 = 20% cost increase on any skill not in the vampire trees.

    Where's this info coming from?
  • Thevampirenight
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    ZonasArch wrote: »
    olsborg wrote: »
    Stage 4 = 20% cost increase on any skill not in the vampire trees.

    Where's this info coming from?

    It came from a video but now can be seen on
    https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Vampire+Skills
    Just scroll below the current live version and it shows all the stats of that greymoor pre pts release that was a older version then the one that is likely going to pts as I read about that on a news article that is what they had players test on so the numbers might not be accurate for that reason. So I wouldn't trust them to be accurate till at least pts comes around which might look a lot different then the numbers shown.
    Edited by Thevampirenight on April 1, 2020 12:16AM
    PC NA
    Please add Fangs to Vampires.
  • ApostateHobo
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    Sustain is already such a huge problem, that they claim to be aware of, yet they go and do this. Are they trying to make sure nobody plays as a vampire anymore or something?
  • Banana
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    20 % is a cure for me. The spreadsheet sucks zos
  • Ratzkifal
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    ZonasArch wrote: »
    olsborg wrote: »
    Stage 4 = 20% cost increase on any skill not in the vampire trees.

    Where's this info coming from?

    From uncensored screenshots from the playtest of Greymoor some content creators got to do recently. They only had limited time playing there, so we don't know everything yet, but we know the new sets, the vamp abilities and passives, how antiquities work, what the overland map looks like, some incomplete details of the trial bosses and the new PvP siege weapon is called a "Magicka lance" which I assume is the one shown in the original ESO trailer "The Siege" that destroyed the walls, the one the elf was strapped onto. It will probably look a bit different but that's something you could call "the magicka lance". That's just my speculation though.

    Some other speculation, admittedly with screenshots to back it up, are Werewolf buffs, that HackTheMinotaur revealed, although as I understand it, he was not part of the group that got to test Greymoor...
    According to him, pounce has a second component that adds an execute dot bleed when cast again, major brutality is always on while the healhowl is slotted, the healhowl heals way more now and scales with max health and when it's used at full health it restores stamina instead, the fear howl gives major savagery when slotted, the attackhowl deals bonus damage all the time when attacking an enemy in front of you instead of only when the enemy is feared.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Thevampirenight
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    ZonasArch wrote: »
    olsborg wrote: »
    Stage 4 = 20% cost increase on any skill not in the vampire trees.

    Where's this info coming from?

    From uncensored screenshots from the playtest of Greymoor some content creators got to do recently. They only had limited time playing there, so we don't know everything yet, but we know the new sets, the vamp abilities and passives, how antiquities work, what the overland map looks like, some incomplete details of the trial bosses and the new PvP siege weapon is called a "Magicka lance" which I assume is the one shown in the original ESO trailer "The Siege" that destroyed the walls, the one the elf was strapped onto. It will probably look a bit different but that's something you could call "the magicka lance". That's just my speculation though.

    Some other speculation, admittedly with screenshots to back it up, are Werewolf buffs, that HackTheMinotaur revealed, although as I understand it, he was not part of the group that got to test Greymoor...
    According to him, pounce has a second component that adds an execute dot bleed when cast again, major brutality is always on while the healhowl is slotted, the healhowl heals way more now and scales with max health and when it's used at full health it restores stamina instead, the fear howl gives major savagery when slotted, the attackhowl deals bonus damage all the time when attacking an enemy in front of you instead of only when the enemy is feared.

    Actually I revealed them on the forums after noticing them. I'm sure he saw that and made a video of it. Had I not discovered it and revealed it on the forums many players might not have known about the Werewolf Changes till the pts.

    I'm sure he got that information from me because I was the one to notice it and posted the information on the forums though I did not take the screen shots of the abilties as @Tommythegun did that or maybe he took those on his own and they are not Tommys. Since there is that ability to do that it seems. I doubt Hack The Minotaur would have noticed it on his own or many that think werewolves are trash would have looked. I might not have either if I didn't think maybe I should check to see if they did anything and guess what they did and I revealed it. Though its possible that players saw in on the video I found the information on before me. But I was the one that allowed many other players to start finding out about it as I posted that information on the forums when I noticed it.
    Edited by Thevampirenight on April 1, 2020 1:05AM
    PC NA
    Please add Fangs to Vampires.
  • Bradyfjord
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    Perhaps crafted sets like Magnus and Seducers will help some builds?
  • TheFM
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    Bradyfjord wrote: »
    Perhaps crafted sets like Magnus and Seducers will help some builds?

    And neuter magicka damage even more. Non starter.
  • Cuddler
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    I have multiple vampire characters, and think the +5% cost increase per rank is perfectly reasonable. ZOS clearly wants to discourage people from getting vampirism for passives only. Those using some of the active abilities should not have issues. The more active vamp abilities you use, the more you benefit from the vamp cost reduction, and the less you suffer (relatively) from the non-vamp increase as you would use non-vamp skills less.

    Just look at the rank 3 and 4 passives here: https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Vampire+Skills . They are ridiculously powerful. Undeath now starts at 100% and scales to -30% incoming damage. At half of your maximum health, that is -15%, twice more powerful than Minor Protection. I am not even going to comment on Unnatural Movement in PVP. Such powerful passives have to come with significant drawbacks.
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