As many countries are debating lootbox legality, how about getting rid of or replacing Crown Crates?

Ri_Khan · January 2020

If you want to see gambling banned from video games, contact your state's Attorney General's Office (not sure what non-US equivalents are) and inform them about what's happening. Chances are they don't have any clue that this is even a thing.

Anotherone773 · January 2020

Contaminate wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

RGD wrote: »

I'm kinda over arguing with you few who just keep saying "LoOtBoXeS ArEn't PrEdAtOrY bEcAuSe i dOn't ThInK ThEy aRe" or "ThEy aReN't BaD bEcaUsE I dOn't MiNd WasTiNg MoNeY." It's becoming a broken record now. I've asked many times for the reasons why you think loot boxes are a good and fair way to monetise content, and you've provided nothing but contrary arguments and nonsensical statements like "I think they are consumer friendly" without really saying how. Gems don't count, as you cannot buy everything with gems and the rate at which you earn gems is very stunted unless you get very lucky or get high tier duplicates.

Loot boxes are just bad. Especially in games that aren't free to begin with, and even moreso when the same games have MANY ways of monetisation. There's a reason why people hate loot boxes, and why they're so controversial, it's for 2 big reasons, they are prone to exploit people with addictive tendancies, and they suck complete and total balls because there's such a high chance to waste money. No, seriously, it would be just as productive to burn your money. There's also a reason why people don't have a problem with buying things upfront, earning them or attaining stuff through battle pass type systems, it's because they don't feel cheap and exploitative. You pay, you receive what you want. Give and take. The only exception to this rule is when things are priced at ridiculous levels, which the controversy that may happen there is understandable, they're digital items in a video game.

Again, I'm over this pointless back and forth, I'm mostly convinced those of you arguing for loot boxes are either trolling and have nothing better to do with your time, or are ZOS employees. Why else would you argue for something so passionately that such a large portion of people dislike for very good reasons, other than getting paid for it or getting some pleasure out of getting a rise out of someone.

Have a nice day, muckers.

"I'm kinda over arguing with you few who just keep saying "LoOtBoXeS ArEn't PrEdAtOrY bEcAuSe i dOn't ThInK ThEy aRe" or "ThEy aReN't BaD bEcaUsE I dOn't MiNd WasTiNg MoNeY." It's becoming a broken record now. I've asked many times for the reasons why you think loot boxes are a good and fair way to monetise content, and you've provided nothing but contrary arguments and nonsensical statements like "I think they are consumer friendly" without really saying how. Gems don't count, as you cannot buy everything with gems and the rate at which you earn gems is very stunted unless you get very lucky or get high tier duplicates."

PEOPLE DON'T GAMBLE BECAUSE THERE IS AN EXPECTATION OF FAIRNESS.

"Loot boxes are just bad. Especially in games that aren't free to begin with, and even moreso when the same games have MANY ways of monetisation. There's a reason why people hate loot boxes, and why they're so controversial, it's for 2 big reasons, they are prone to exploit people with addictive tendancies, and they suck complete and total balls because there's such a high chance to waste money. No, seriously, it would be just as productive to burn your money. There's also a reason why people don't have a problem with buying things upfront, earning them or attaining stuff through battle pass type systems, it's because they don't feel cheap and exploitative. You pay, you receive what you want. Give and take. The only exception to this rule is when things are priced at ridiculous levels, which the controversy that may happen there is understandable, they're digital items in a video game."

The reason lootboxes are controversial, is because they are relatively unregulated and they were taking advantage of children who were playing games with no indication on the box that there were gambling mechanics. It's not because adults are in danger of getting addicted to something.

"Again, I'm over this pointless back and forth, I'm mostly convinced those of you arguing for loot boxes are either trolling and have nothing better to do with your time, or are ZOS employees. Why else would you argue for something so passionately that such a large portion of people dislike for very good reasons, other than getting paid for it or getting some pleasure out of getting a rise out of someone."

"I'm mostly convinced that the people that disagree with me are either trolls or ESO shills."

There we go poisoning the well, again. It can't possibly be because there is a flaw in your morality based argument.

People gamble with crates because there’s no alternatives to get the cosmetics locked behind them.

So many people wanted that Maormer skin, then it got shoved into crates instead of being offered for sale.

There is no flaw in noticing how loot boxes are predatory by design. It’s a scam to get more money for no more content. Its entire purpose is to wring players out of money.

There is however a huge flaw in claiming otherwise or claiming blatantly manipulative marketing is healthy for anyone.

Actually, most people gamble because its fun and entertaining. Crown crates are not predatory by design. You can by that skin for 100 gems. Even if you had the worse luck in the world that is about 25 crates and you know you are not going to have that bad of luck. But if you did that would mean a tier 1 item every card and you would never get 5 cards( which has a 20% rate of appearing) Honestly, you should be able to pick up the skin for the price of 10 crates or so and a most people who mess with crates and gems will probably have a good chunk of that at least.

So if we base it on 25 crates to get enough gems to get the skin then you would need about 10k crowns which would be $80. But from my experience with crates, you would likely get enough gems in 10-15 crates, IF you havent purchased any crates in the current season. SO i would start with a $40 pack and see if i was having decent luck.

Regardless, if you figure the worse case scenario at 4 gems a crate you can determine about how many crates you would need max for any items but a radiant apex. So that feature of crown crates pretty much invalidates every single argument that crown crates are predatory and that you cant just buy the item for a set price. You can, for that skin, its 100 gems.

craybest · January 2020

I've always been against lootboxes in all games, and they're really really common by now.

Sylvermynx · January 2020

I enjoy buying a few crates - but then, I've been very lucky with what they drop. And I have the money so don't mind spending it that way.

As for other gambling.... nah. It's not fun or absorbing. I grew up in Vegas.

Again I enjoy buying the crates to see what I get, but I don't buy more than I can afford (or any at all if it's stuff like Scalecaller or Murkmire - whatever they really were called), and five of them are enough every six months. I do buy crowns sometimes, but not for crates.

It's not a huge thing to me. If all y'all who have this frothing at the mouth about it going on get them removed, I won't be sad. I may think you're all trying to parent the wrong people, but hey, if that's how you roll....

Kahnak · January 2020

Contaminate wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

RGD wrote: »

I'm kinda over arguing with you few who just keep saying "LoOtBoXeS ArEn't PrEdAtOrY bEcAuSe i dOn't ThInK ThEy aRe" or "ThEy aReN't BaD bEcaUsE I dOn't MiNd WasTiNg MoNeY." It's becoming a broken record now. I've asked many times for the reasons why you think loot boxes are a good and fair way to monetise content, and you've provided nothing but contrary arguments and nonsensical statements like "I think they are consumer friendly" without really saying how. Gems don't count, as you cannot buy everything with gems and the rate at which you earn gems is very stunted unless you get very lucky or get high tier duplicates.

Loot boxes are just bad. Especially in games that aren't free to begin with, and even moreso when the same games have MANY ways of monetisation. There's a reason why people hate loot boxes, and why they're so controversial, it's for 2 big reasons, they are prone to exploit people with addictive tendancies, and they suck complete and total balls because there's such a high chance to waste money. No, seriously, it would be just as productive to burn your money. There's also a reason why people don't have a problem with buying things upfront, earning them or attaining stuff through battle pass type systems, it's because they don't feel cheap and exploitative. You pay, you receive what you want. Give and take. The only exception to this rule is when things are priced at ridiculous levels, which the controversy that may happen there is understandable, they're digital items in a video game.

Again, I'm over this pointless back and forth, I'm mostly convinced those of you arguing for loot boxes are either trolling and have nothing better to do with your time, or are ZOS employees. Why else would you argue for something so passionately that such a large portion of people dislike for very good reasons, other than getting paid for it or getting some pleasure out of getting a rise out of someone.

Have a nice day, muckers.

"I'm kinda over arguing with you few who just keep saying "LoOtBoXeS ArEn't PrEdAtOrY bEcAuSe i dOn't ThInK ThEy aRe" or "ThEy aReN't BaD bEcaUsE I dOn't MiNd WasTiNg MoNeY." It's becoming a broken record now. I've asked many times for the reasons why you think loot boxes are a good and fair way to monetise content, and you've provided nothing but contrary arguments and nonsensical statements like "I think they are consumer friendly" without really saying how. Gems don't count, as you cannot buy everything with gems and the rate at which you earn gems is very stunted unless you get very lucky or get high tier duplicates."

PEOPLE DON'T GAMBLE BECAUSE THERE IS AN EXPECTATION OF FAIRNESS.

"Loot boxes are just bad. Especially in games that aren't free to begin with, and even moreso when the same games have MANY ways of monetisation. There's a reason why people hate loot boxes, and why they're so controversial, it's for 2 big reasons, they are prone to exploit people with addictive tendancies, and they suck complete and total balls because there's such a high chance to waste money. No, seriously, it would be just as productive to burn your money. There's also a reason why people don't have a problem with buying things upfront, earning them or attaining stuff through battle pass type systems, it's because they don't feel cheap and exploitative. You pay, you receive what you want. Give and take. The only exception to this rule is when things are priced at ridiculous levels, which the controversy that may happen there is understandable, they're digital items in a video game."

The reason lootboxes are controversial, is because they are relatively unregulated and they were taking advantage of children who were playing games with no indication on the box that there were gambling mechanics. It's not because adults are in danger of getting addicted to something.

"Again, I'm over this pointless back and forth, I'm mostly convinced those of you arguing for loot boxes are either trolling and have nothing better to do with your time, or are ZOS employees. Why else would you argue for something so passionately that such a large portion of people dislike for very good reasons, other than getting paid for it or getting some pleasure out of getting a rise out of someone."

"I'm mostly convinced that the people that disagree with me are either trolls or ESO shills."

There we go poisoning the well, again. It can't possibly be because there is a flaw in your morality based argument.

People gamble with crates because there’s no alternatives to get the cosmetics locked behind them.

So many people wanted that Maormer skin, then it got shoved into crates instead of being offered for sale.

There is no flaw in noticing how loot boxes are predatory by design. It’s a scam to get more money for no more content. Its entire purpose is to wring players out of money.

There is however a huge flaw in claiming otherwise or claiming blatantly manipulative marketing is healthy for anyone.

"People gamble with crates because there’s no alternatives to get the cosmetics locked behind them."

Correct, that is the whole point. Thank you for stating the obvious.

"So many people wanted that Maormer skin, then it got shoved into crates instead of being offered for sale."

Yep, just like 90% of all of the other skins. You might say, it was put into the crates BECAUSE so many people wanted it.

"There is no flaw in noticing how loot boxes are predatory by design. It’s a scam to get more money for no more content. Its entire purpose is to wring players out of money."

Except you've failed to provide anything that would indicate that lootboxes are designed specifically to be predatory. It's not a scam to provide a service that is a gambling mechanic, neither is it against the law.

Its entire purpose is to wring players out of money

According to you, the whole purpose of lootboxes is to be predatory. Making money is obviously the whole purpose of lootboxes and making money isn't illegal. Players aren't being tricked into paying money for them.

"There is however a huge flaw in claiming otherwise or claiming blatantly manipulative marketing is healthy for anyone."

Apparently there is a huge flaw in any argument claiming otherwise, but you haven't bothered to provide any support for your own claim. The world is filled to the brim with blatantly manipulative marketing. Pretending that this is new or somehow more nefarious than the Taco Bell commercial you saw earlier today is being deliberately obtuse.

You yourself in your own post display exactly why lootboxes are predatory and scummy.

“Yep, just like 90% of all of the other skins. You might say, it was put into the crates BECAUSE so many people wanted it.”

In your own words: It was put in Crates so players would have to gamble for it.

In case you don’t get it yet: ZOS required players gamble with real currency (and no bs Crowns are directly comparable to cash) in order to get an item that was highly desired, instead of offering it for flat sale, because it makes ZOS more money.

Is this supposed to be some sort of 'gotcha'? That's not evidence of anything predatory or scummy. They know people are willing to buy crown crates for skins. Of course they are going to put them in crown crates. They are not compelling anyone to buy crates and no adult engages in a gambling mechanic expecting to get everything they've ever dreamed of. It's obvious that they are meant to make money to anyone with a brain. There is nothing scummy about making money off of people willing to pay for something. That argument is absurd.

Stop pretending that people who buy crown crates are the victims of some kind of scheme. It's kind of pitiful. Apparently, we're just a bunch of helpless dupes with no self control or sense of personal responsibility that can't help but get victimized by ZOS.

'I didn't want to buy more crates, but ZOS made me do it!'

Hallothiel · January 2020

I started playing this game before someone in marketing had the ‘bright’ idea to add the crates, and there was a lot more available in the Crown Store. Much better.

What is the need for these boxes? They add very little to the game and therefore really are just a rubbish way to get more money. They have alienated a part of the player base & caused reputational damage to the company - not a good business move.

They do not offer a good rate of conversion to gems, nor can you convert everything you would like to into gems. I do not see why it is considered ‘fun’ to buy numerous crates with rubbish in them for the limited amount of gems or for things I DO NOT WANT. Gambling like this is not ‘fun’.

And it is not the same as baseball cards. They were physical items that could be traded and swapped to get ones wanted. Not possible here.

I also dislike that items are ONLY available in the crates and nowhere else, thus forcing one to purchase these crates if one would like even a chance of getting the item. Would you buy clothes that way?

I would just prefer to buy the item I want for a transparent price. Is that so much to ask?

Royaji · January 2020

Hallothiel wrote: »

What is the need for these boxes?

(snip)

I would just prefer to buy the item I want for a transparent price. Is that so much to ask?

You've answered your own questions there.

Hallothiel wrote: »

They add very little to the game and therefore really are just a rubbish way to get more money.

But here is an interesting hypothetical. Would you be happy if ZOS were to put all of the Crown Crate items for direct purchase for the price they would cost in Crown Crates? So about 80-100$ for tier one stuff and 250-400$ for an apex?

Iccotak · January 2020

@Anotherone773

You are actually trying to change something that is capitalistic in nature to something that is socialistic in nature.

Ok imagine you go to a restaurant. You look at the menu and it's a mystery box.
You are guaranteed a 4 things from that restaurant but it probably won't be what you're looking for.
You could spend the same amount of money three times and you would get wildly different results that are clearly not all equal in value.
You could get;
- 4 drinks
- 1 drink, 2 sides, 1 desert
- 2 sides, 2 condiment packet
etc.

You might have to spend upward to $250 before you can even get a main course plate but even then it could be any type of food: Breakfast, Chinese, Sushi, Italian, etc. You don't know.

But then they say that you can exchange items you don't want for points that will allow to just directly buy what you want. Except for the very best items on the menu - those still depend on random chance.

How, in any way, does saying that I should just be able to buy what I want "Socialistic"?
How is the system that I just described for you "Consumer Friendly"?

andreasv · January 2020

Even that *** cat that opens the free boxes for you will recommend to you to buy more crates. If you want to see a fair cash shop; this game isn't for you!

Elsonso · January 2020

Royaji wrote: »

But here is an interesting hypothetical. Would you be happy if ZOS were to put all of the Crown Crate items for direct purchase for the price they would cost in Crown Crates? So about 80-100$ for tier one stuff and 250-400$ for an apex?

Once, a long long time ago, there was a calculation done, and posted here, that determined how much real money one of those apex crate-only mounts cost. The number was a lot more than a mere $400. The average (even odds) cost of a non-gem apex mount, with no sales, discounts, or subscriber Crowns, is more like $1500. I would imagine that the "average" winner loser gives up long before they open that many Crown Crates.

It would be interesting to know what the actual average cost of these mounts is, calculated by how many Crowns an individual has spent on Crown Crates between two apex rewards. I will wager that it is still well above $400.

darthgummibear_ESO · January 2020

Anotherone773 wrote: »

RGD wrote: »

latest being the UK, the NHS saying they're unhealthy, and can lead to gambling addictions and such.

Alcohol is also unhealthy, but pubs are everywhere and unless your pregnant, under age, or have a medical issue that prevents you from drinking, you are looked at suspiciously for not consuming alcohol.

That particular article got me thinking, is it time to get rid of Crown Crates in favour of some less egregious and predatory systems for cool stuff?

Its not predatory. People need to learn to take responsibility for themselves and stop expecting a nanny state to coddle and care for them and shield them from things that might harm them.

Now, I predict that there'll be some people who'll say things like "lol, crown crates are optional, so if you don't like 'em, don't buy 'em!" - obviously that's the case, but for a lot of people, cosmetics are a large part of video games, like, a huge part, and crown crates hold some of the nicest cosmetics in the game. It's CRYSTAL CLEAR that 99% of the Crown Store item developers time is spent on upcoming content for Crown Crates. This sucks because the Crown Crate (loot box) system is predatory and exploitative of players who value cosmetics in games by stuffing the cool stuff behind a steep price and unbelievable RNG chances. Now, to those who say they're optional, yes they are, but you can agree that ZOS is fully capable of introducing the same cosmetics in a more consumer-friendly and generally less disgusting way.

So crown crates are predatory because they have items in them some people desire? Really? Wow.

I find crown crates to be very consumer friendly. i even grab a few every once in a great while. I also go to the casino every once in a while and never spend more than i want too and never have gamblers remorse. People who have problems with situations in which something is a gamble should stay away from those situations. However, the other 97% of the population( Here in the US, 3% of the population has a gambling problem.) should not have to suffer because 3% of the population is incapable of self control.

I think it is absolutely 100% cheeky for a small percentage of the population to expect a large percent of the population to cater to them because they lack self control and good judgement. I have to wonder if the same people play the lottery and then expect the "state" to give them a reward for playing?

There are probably quite a few ways to still monetize the stuff from crown crates successfully, but not be lame about the way it's done. First being obvious, just put them on the crown store as a direct purchase. Second, and probably will have people rolling their eyes at the suggestion of it, but a "Battle Pass" type system could be introduced. There's more than enough content placed in crown crates to fill a 100-tier pass with free and premium tiers. The challenges could be an easy thing, too; things like do certain dungeons, repeatable quests, crafting writs, kill certain amounts or types of enemies, dolmens, events, world bosses, the possibilities are quite endless. This way the items will be monetizable via the premium pass and buying tiers, and it'll incentivize certain activities for the players to return to. There's a few basic ways to replace Crown Crates that I, and I imagine plenty of players would be happy to engage in.

They have a system that works, it is crown crates. If they have to go to a system in which they have to have set prices for items, they will either stop selling those items or, more likely, have to sell far more desirable items like actual pay 2 win items.

The idea behind crown crates or any type of "gambling" is that you only spend what you can afford to lose. If you ( general)are spending more than you can afford to lose trying to win some pixels, that is not our( the communities) problem. Why should we be punished for your(general) irresponsibility and inability to make adult decisions?

I doubt anyone from ZOS will read this, let alone crown crates ever disappearing, the best chance of that happening would be for as many people as possible to stop buying them, or many countries outlawing loot box-type mechanics in video games. It's something I hope will happen one day, because I like the stuff in the crates, and I'm happy to purchase them and support the game, but I will not buy the CHANCE to get something.

And suddenly the motive is made clear. " I want X but i dont like the price of X, so i want the entire system to be changed so i can acquire X on my terms" That is not the way the world works.

And you are right crown crates will probably not ever go away. In the US gambling is becoming legal in far more places, not the other way around. Every bar in my state has legal gambling machines in it, something it didnt have 10 years ago. The most you are going to get here in the states is that ZOS is forced to disclose odds of winning each prize, which is something they should have to do.

People who actually think like this are just as much to blame as the actual perpetrators.

VaranisArano · January 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

But here is an interesting hypothetical. Would you be happy if ZOS were to put all of the Crown Crate items for direct purchase for the price they would cost in Crown Crates? So about 80-100$ for tier one stuff and 250-400$ for an apex?

Once, a long long time ago, there was a calculation done, and posted here, that determined how much real money one of those apex crate-only mounts cost. The number was a lot more than a mere $400. The average (even odds) cost of a non-gem apex mount, with no sales, discounts, or subscriber Crowns, is more like $1500. I would imagine that the "average" winner loser gives up long before they open that many Crown Crates.

It would be interesting to know what the actual average cost of these mounts is, calculated by how many Crowns an individual has spent on Crown Crates between two apex rewards. I will wager that it is still well above $400.

I looked at Radiant Apex mount expected cost on this thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/504854/make-radiant-apex-mounts-buyable

VaranisArano wrote: »

How many crates, roughly, does it take to get a Radiant Apex mount?
We don't actually know because ZOS doesn't have to release the official odds.

However, we can say that:
15 Crate packs cost 5000 crowns.
So if the average amount to get the radiant Apex mount you want is more than 62 crates, we can guess that ZOS would lose money on the OP's suggestion to charge 21,000 crowns.

Unfortunately, we're somewhat hamstrung by ZOS not releasing the official odds, but the math on the recent crates recorded by players is something like:
New Moon: 48/17, 814 crates
Baandari: 31 Apex mounts /17,218 crates
Dragonscale: 40/14,858 crates
Xanmeer: 17/9,541 crates

Part of the appeal of gambling is that you might be that lucky player who gets a Radiant Apex mount with one, two, or 15 crates.
But based on the last 4 crown crate seasons, the drop rate for a radiant apex, ANY radiant apex, is more like 1 in every 435 crates, an expected value of approx 145,000 crowns spent per radiant apex, assuming I've done my math right. Even then, there's no guarantee that you'll get one at all even in 435 crates.

So, um, yeah...
That's the joy of gambling right there.
Its also why ZOS won't be setting a price tag on those Radiant Apex Mounts anytime soon.

In terms of money, that's roughly $1000 for ANY radiant apex (less if you bought all the crowns on sale), which lines up pretty well with some people complaining they've spent about that much and NOT gotten a radiant apex mount. Or they did, but not the one they wanted.

And as always, the appeal of gambling is simply that you might get a radiant apex mount for much less than the expected cost. That's part of why ZOS uses loot crates - they'd be laughed out of town if they tried to actually price the radiant apex mounts at the expected amounts that the drop rate indicates.

Kahnak · January 2020

Iccotak wrote: »

@Anotherone773

You are actually trying to change something that is capitalistic in nature to something that is socialistic in nature.

Ok imagine you go to a restaurant. You look at the menu and it's a mystery box.
You are guaranteed a 4 things from that restaurant but it probably won't be what you're looking for.
You could spend the same amount of money three times and you would get wildly different results that are clearly not all equal in value.
You could get;
- 4 drinks
- 1 drink, 2 sides, 1 desert
- 2 sides, 2 condiment packet
etc.

You might have to spend upward to $250 before you can even get a main course plate but even then it could be any type of food: Breakfast, Chinese, Sushi, Italian, etc. You don't know.

But then they say that you can exchange items you don't want for points that will allow to just directly buy what you want. Except for the very best items on the menu - those still depend on random chance.

How, in any way, does saying that I should just be able to buy what I want "Socialistic"?
How is the system that I just described for you "Consumer Friendly"?

You people continue to conflate this transaction with a direct transaction. It's not a direct transaction - it's gambling. You aren't buying Crown Crates with the impression that you're going to get exactly what you are looking for every time. With this comparison you're also asserting that the 'victim' in this case was expecting to get exactly what they intended to buy, but didn't. That's a fallacious allegory.

"Imagine you went in to buy some ice cream, but you didn't get ice cream. You got a stick, instead! Surprise! Now doesn't that sound like literally the worst thing ever?"

Hallothiel · January 2020

But why is there the need to add gambling to this game?

Its a rubbish system that is bloody awful.

Royaji · January 2020

Hallothiel wrote: »

But why is there the need to add gambling to this game?

Its a rubbish system that is bloody awful.

Simple. Because it makes more money. And ZOS is a for-profit organisation.

Kahnak · January 2020

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

RGD wrote: »

latest being the UK, the NHS saying they're unhealthy, and can lead to gambling addictions and such.

Alcohol is also unhealthy, but pubs are everywhere and unless your pregnant, under age, or have a medical issue that prevents you from drinking, you are looked at suspiciously for not consuming alcohol.

That particular article got me thinking, is it time to get rid of Crown Crates in favour of some less egregious and predatory systems for cool stuff?

Its not predatory. People need to learn to take responsibility for themselves and stop expecting a nanny state to coddle and care for them and shield them from things that might harm them.

Now, I predict that there'll be some people who'll say things like "lol, crown crates are optional, so if you don't like 'em, don't buy 'em!" - obviously that's the case, but for a lot of people, cosmetics are a large part of video games, like, a huge part, and crown crates hold some of the nicest cosmetics in the game. It's CRYSTAL CLEAR that 99% of the Crown Store item developers time is spent on upcoming content for Crown Crates. This sucks because the Crown Crate (loot box) system is predatory and exploitative of players who value cosmetics in games by stuffing the cool stuff behind a steep price and unbelievable RNG chances. Now, to those who say they're optional, yes they are, but you can agree that ZOS is fully capable of introducing the same cosmetics in a more consumer-friendly and generally less disgusting way.

So crown crates are predatory because they have items in them some people desire? Really? Wow.

I find crown crates to be very consumer friendly. i even grab a few every once in a great while. I also go to the casino every once in a while and never spend more than i want too and never have gamblers remorse. People who have problems with situations in which something is a gamble should stay away from those situations. However, the other 97% of the population( Here in the US, 3% of the population has a gambling problem.) should not have to suffer because 3% of the population is incapable of self control.

I think it is absolutely 100% cheeky for a small percentage of the population to expect a large percent of the population to cater to them because they lack self control and good judgement. I have to wonder if the same people play the lottery and then expect the "state" to give them a reward for playing?

There are probably quite a few ways to still monetize the stuff from crown crates successfully, but not be lame about the way it's done. First being obvious, just put them on the crown store as a direct purchase. Second, and probably will have people rolling their eyes at the suggestion of it, but a "Battle Pass" type system could be introduced. There's more than enough content placed in crown crates to fill a 100-tier pass with free and premium tiers. The challenges could be an easy thing, too; things like do certain dungeons, repeatable quests, crafting writs, kill certain amounts or types of enemies, dolmens, events, world bosses, the possibilities are quite endless. This way the items will be monetizable via the premium pass and buying tiers, and it'll incentivize certain activities for the players to return to. There's a few basic ways to replace Crown Crates that I, and I imagine plenty of players would be happy to engage in.

They have a system that works, it is crown crates. If they have to go to a system in which they have to have set prices for items, they will either stop selling those items or, more likely, have to sell far more desirable items like actual pay 2 win items.

The idea behind crown crates or any type of "gambling" is that you only spend what you can afford to lose. If you ( general)are spending more than you can afford to lose trying to win some pixels, that is not our( the communities) problem. Why should we be punished for your(general) irresponsibility and inability to make adult decisions?

I doubt anyone from ZOS will read this, let alone crown crates ever disappearing, the best chance of that happening would be for as many people as possible to stop buying them, or many countries outlawing loot box-type mechanics in video games. It's something I hope will happen one day, because I like the stuff in the crates, and I'm happy to purchase them and support the game, but I will not buy the CHANCE to get something.

And suddenly the motive is made clear. " I want X but i dont like the price of X, so i want the entire system to be changed so i can acquire X on my terms" That is not the way the world works.

And you are right crown crates will probably not ever go away. In the US gambling is becoming legal in far more places, not the other way around. Every bar in my state has legal gambling machines in it, something it didnt have 10 years ago. The most you are going to get here in the states is that ZOS is forced to disclose odds of winning each prize, which is something they should have to do.

People who actually think like this are just as much to blame as the actual perpetrators.

What is it like generalizing about the morality of people you don't agree with and then proceeding to add nothing of value to the conversation?

Elsonso · January 2020

.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

But here is an interesting hypothetical. Would you be happy if ZOS were to put all of the Crown Crate items for direct purchase for the price they would cost in Crown Crates? So about 80-100$ for tier one stuff and 250-400$ for an apex?

Once, a long long time ago, there was a calculation done, and posted here, that determined how much real money one of those apex crate-only mounts cost. The number was a lot more than a mere $400. The average (even odds) cost of a non-gem apex mount, with no sales, discounts, or subscriber Crowns, is more like $1500. I would imagine that the "average" winner loser gives up long before they open that many Crown Crates.

It would be interesting to know what the actual average cost of these mounts is, calculated by how many Crowns an individual has spent on Crown Crates between two apex rewards. I will wager that it is still well above $400.

I looked at Radiant Apex mount expected cost on this thread:

I have a spreadsheet that can determine the value of a non-gem item given the reported drop rate and the desired odds of winning. I get the drop rate from crowncrates.com. That is where the $1500 comes from, above, and it represents getting a specific radiant apex item from the New Moon crates, not just any radiant apex item. (If you are going to sell a mount in the store, it is going to be a specific item)

So, for a Plagueborn Senche Panther, with a reported drop rate of .12%, it would take 587 Crown Crates to have even odds of getting that exact prize. That comes out to 39 15-ct Crown Crate packs for 5000 Crowns each for a total of 195000 Crowns. Given the 21000 Crown pack (PC) for US$150, plus tax, 10 are required. $1500

Anotherone773 · January 2020

Iccotak wrote: »

@Anotherone773

You are actually trying to change something that is capitalistic in nature to something that is socialistic in nature.

Ok imagine you go to a restaurant. You look at the menu and it's a mystery box.
You are guaranteed a 4 things from that restaurant but it probably won't be what you're looking for.
You could spend the same amount of money three times and you would get wildly different results that are clearly not all equal in value.
You could get;
- 4 drinks
- 1 drink, 2 sides, 1 desert
- 2 sides, 2 condiment packet
etc.

You might have to spend upward to $250 before you can even get a main course plate but even then it could be any type of food: Breakfast, Chinese, Sushi, Italian, etc. You don't know.

But then they say that you can exchange items you don't want for points that will allow to just directly buy what you want. Except for the very best items on the menu - those still depend on random chance.

How, in any way, does saying that I should just be able to buy what I want "Socialistic"?
How is the system that I just described for you "Consumer Friendly"?

Did you just tag me for a strawman? For your analogy alone...

A reasonable person expects to be able to order off a menu in a restaurant. A reasonable person expects a crown crate to have the lowest possible prizes available with a greatly decreasing chance of a specific prize as they move up the prize tier.

Crown crates are also optional. If you dont like the menu or the service dont order. But dont try to force an Italian restaurant to make you a yellow curry because you are in the mood for curry and you must have curry!

How, in any way, does saying that I should just be able to buy what I want "Socialistic"?

You are actually using this out of context. The original context was a risk/reward system VS everything should be one set price. In a risk/reward system, those that take the biggest risk CAN reap the biggest benefits. In this case the rewards from crown crates.

In a socialistic system, everyone is provided with roughly the same thing but at a far lesser quality. The OP wants to take the risk/reward system( capitalism) and turn it into a lets reduce to lowest denominator so that everyone can have X for Y. That is socialistic thinking.

It doesnt matter that you just want to buy it. This is what a certain group of people can.not.grasp. The buyer does not get to dictate the terms of the sale. The seller does. The buyer only has two choices: Accept the terms or dont accept the terms.

How is the system that I just described for you "Consumer Friendly"?

Why are we talking about your hypothetical being consumer friendly instead of what i actually said was consumer friendly? If you want to know how crown crates are consumer friendly...

1) You can buy crates and try to get prizes you want.
2) Duplicate and low end items can be traded for gems.
3) Gems can be used to buy all but 3 items from the crates. There are over 90 possible items.
4) There are 4 items at minimum per crate. You can figure at least 3 gems per crate on your first few crates and then 4 gems and then 5.. when you hit 20-30 crates you will be generating 10-15 gems a crate as you start getting a lot of high gem dupes

Its consumer friendly because not only are you guaranteed four prizes in every crate but you also collect gems that you can basically use as a guaranteed to get what i want second chance prize currency.

Darkenarlol · January 2020

and here we are in the world where game companies try

to squeeze as much profit as they can using psychological

profiles and goverments (omg) discussing how and with what

sorts of legal limitations i can play...video games

oh boi things used to be very different 20 years ago =/

DMuehlhausen · January 2020

Maybe people should start taking responsibility for their actions.

They aren't "unhealthy" they aren't required. You don't have to have the items. If you feel like you can't help yourself and can't stop yourself from buying the items or crates then you should stop playing the game.

I do think they should just keep the crates, but make every item available at a gem rate. At least then you can extract gems from duplicate items or the massive stacks of potions and stuff and save up for what you want.

DMuehlhausen · January 2020

Additonally. Ask yourself this.

Would you rather have the crates and the current B2P, free to stay model with cosmetic items you can pay for.

Or be forced to pay 15$. If crown crates/stores go they will go back to forcing 15$/month. Games like this have to have recurring incoming revenue to pay for the hardware, software, and work force to keep it all running.

Agenericname · January 2020

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Additonally. Ask yourself this.

Would you rather have the crates and the current B2P, free to stay model with cosmetic items you can pay for.

Or be forced to pay 15$. If crown crates/stores go they will go back to forcing 15$/month. Games like this have to have recurring incoming revenue to pay for the hardware, software, and work force to keep it all running.

To be honest I'd personally rather have the sub. I'd prefer the mounts be earned rather than sold and I'd rather have a sub than a cash shop. They had their reasons for going this route, but in a perfect world I'd rather have the sub.

Brandathorbel · January 2020

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Additonally. Ask yourself this.

Would you rather have the crates and the current B2P, free to stay model with cosmetic items you can pay for.

Or be forced to pay 15$. If crown crates/stores go they will go back to forcing 15$/month. Games like this have to have recurring incoming revenue to pay for the hardware, software, and work force to keep it all running.

would rather the $15

Casterial · January 2020

LET ME GAMBLE IN PEACE

Hallothiel · January 2020

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

@Anotherone773

You are actually trying to change something that is capitalistic in nature to something that is socialistic in nature.

Ok imagine you go to a restaurant. You look at the menu and it's a mystery box.
You are guaranteed a 4 things from that restaurant but it probably won't be what you're looking for.
You could spend the same amount of money three times and you would get wildly different results that are clearly not all equal in value.
You could get;
- 4 drinks
- 1 drink, 2 sides, 1 desert
- 2 sides, 2 condiment packet
etc.

You might have to spend upward to $250 before you can even get a main course plate but even then it could be any type of food: Breakfast, Chinese, Sushi, Italian, etc. You don't know.

But then they say that you can exchange items you don't want for points that will allow to just directly buy what you want. Except for the very best items on the menu - those still depend on random chance.

How, in any way, does saying that I should just be able to buy what I want "Socialistic"?
How is the system that I just described for you "Consumer Friendly"?

Did you just tag me for a strawman? For your analogy alone...

A reasonable person expects to be able to order off a menu in a restaurant. A reasonable person expects a crown crate to have the lowest possible prizes available with a greatly decreasing chance of a specific prize as they move up the prize tier.

Crown crates are also optional. If you dont like the menu or the service dont order. But dont try to force an Italian restaurant to make you a yellow curry because you are in the mood for curry and you must have curry!

How, in any way, does saying that I should just be able to buy what I want "Socialistic"?

You are actually using this out of context. The original context was a risk/reward system VS everything should be one set price. In a risk/reward system, those that take the biggest risk CAN reap the biggest benefits. In this case the rewards from crown crates.

In a socialistic system, everyone is provided with roughly the same thing but at a far lesser quality. The OP wants to take the risk/reward system( capitalism) and turn it into a lets reduce to lowest denominator so that everyone can have X for Y. That is socialistic thinking.

It doesnt matter that you just want to buy it. This is what a certain group of people can.not.grasp. The buyer does not get to dictate the terms of the sale. The seller does. The buyer only has two choices: Accept the terms or dont accept the terms.

How is the system that I just described for you "Consumer Friendly"?

Why are we talking about your hypothetical being consumer friendly instead of what i actually said was consumer friendly? If you want to know how crown crates are consumer friendly...

1) You can buy crates and try to get prizes you want.
2) Duplicate and low end items can be traded for gems.
3) Gems can be used to buy all but 3 items from the crates. There are over 90 possible items.
4) There are 4 items at minimum per crate. You can figure at least 3 gems per crate on your first few crates and then 4 gems and then 5.. when you hit 20-30 crates you will be generating 10-15 gems a crate as you start getting a lot of high gem dupes

Its consumer friendly because not only are you guaranteed four prizes in every crate but you also collect gems that you can basically use as a guaranteed to get what i want second chance prize currency.

No, it’s not friendly at all. It’s a highly dubious way to get people to spend money on ‘fun’ gambling.

And what is more capitalist than wanting to just buy the damn item, without all the rudiculous unecessary kerfuffle with stupid crates?

Coppes · January 2020

If they can charge 4000 crowns for a house/housing item imagine the price of a radiant apex mount on the market probably would be close to the 6k-8k mark.

Lumsdenml · January 2020

Nothing wrong with crown crates, it's all cosmetic and has zero impact on the playability of the game. You don't want to gamble? Fine. Don't do it. Don't foist your beliefs on others who enjoy it.

Nyladreas · January 2020

RGD wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Even your comment about the UK states nothing about them outlawing the boxes. A statement from the NHS is meaningless until and unless Parliament actually passes a law. Harsh criticism is all the NHS has provided on the subject. That is not cracking down on anything.

My comment is not in support of loot boxes as I choose to not buy them. Just pointing out the title is inaccurate based on the information provided by the OP. BTW, Zos really has no reason to read this thread. They have professionals and experts keeping an eye on anything that may develop they need to deal with in this area. Amateur armchair experts are not the best sources for legal advice.

Actually, there's a few countries that've already implemented legal measures to combat loot box mechanics, Belgium being one, and Netherlands having restricted several games that actually violate their current gambling laws. Many countries including the UK keeping their eye on the issue, the NHS scolding loot boxes is no small thing, while it's not a law, if medical studies support that loot boxes are unhealthy, that'll be brought up to government by gambling awareness associations.

"Cracking down" is an extreme way to put it, imo the changes aren't happening soon enough, however the issue has been raised by many countries, some, like I said have already taken action. I was hoping this would light a fire under ZOS' arses. Being contrary about the small technicalities on a suggestion post isn't helping anyone, not even yourself if you are against the crates.

edit: i fixed the title and first sentence in the interest of accuracy

All these laws are going to accomplish will be restricting players from buying loot crates altogether in these specifically restricted countries, while the company will still be able to openly sell it in the rest of the world.

These laws do not help the consumer, and if the company ends up being forced into cancelling sales all they'll do will simply be to prevent people from buying at all rather than scrapping their beloved whale-funded system.

(snip) if you think this will force any game development company into putting stuff up for direct sale, let alone create content (snip). 😂😂 It will also hurt the company and the game because most profits go to the investors, and trust me the revenue from crates is giant.

Also, this fact will likely result in increased gold selling, even legal gold selling, and create gifting systems so that people can still spend money somehow via those who can still buy the crates lol.

We're digging our own graves, (snip).

(edited for baiting)

idk · January 2020

RGD wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Even your comment about the UK states nothing about them outlawing the boxes. A statement from the NHS is meaningless until and unless Parliament actually passes a law. Harsh criticism is all the NHS has provided on the subject. That is not cracking down on anything.

My comment is not in support of loot boxes as I choose to not buy them. Just pointing out the title is inaccurate based on the information provided by the OP. BTW, Zos really has no reason to read this thread. They have professionals and experts keeping an eye on anything that may develop they need to deal with in this area. Amateur armchair experts are not the best sources for legal advice.

Actually, there's a few countries that've already implemented legal measures to combat loot box mechanics, Belgium being one, and Netherlands having restricted several games that actually violate their current gambling laws. Many countries including the UK keeping their eye on the issue, the NHS scolding loot boxes is no small thing, while it's not a law, if medical studies support that loot boxes are unhealthy, that'll be brought up to government by gambling awareness associations.

"Cracking down" is an extreme way to put it, imo the changes aren't happening soon enough, however the issue has been raised by many countries, some, like I said have already taken action. I was hoping this would light a fire under ZOS' arses. Being contrary about the small technicalities on a suggestion post isn't helping anyone, not even yourself if you are against the crates.

edit: i fixed the title and first sentence in the interest of accuracy

Yes, some nations, or at least one, has done something yet you noted one that is not doing jack.

And yes, I am aware some nations have done something but I would hope Zos leans on actual professionals that are educated on reading the details of laws vs armchair laypersons without such a background. That would seem to be the smart approach for any company.

Akisohida · January 2020

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Maybe people should start taking responsibility for their actions.

They aren't "unhealthy" they aren't required. You don't have to have the items. If you feel like you can't help yourself and can't stop yourself from buying the items or crates then you should stop playing the game.

I do think they should just keep the crates, but make every item available at a gem rate. At least then you can extract gems from duplicate items or the massive stacks of potions and stuff and save up for what you want.

There are people with legitimate problems that mechanics like this are made to target.

Let me guess; (snip) people that would look at me, with autism that prevents me from working because I just can't interact with people in the flesh, and say 'Just try harder to be normal. I can do it, so you can, too!'

Because you can't comprehend that people are different from you, and that YOU can just not spend money on an abusive, addicting mechanic means EVERYONE can!

Hell. I linked to research earlier stating that lootboxes TARGET THESE PEOPLE and yet there are still idiots in this post AFTER that post that claim 'No one's given proof that lootboxes target people!'.

I gave the proof, and everyone defending this practice ignored it to continue arguing their side.

I don't care what anyone's opinion is. Opinions are rarely right or wrong; they are opinions.

But the FACT is that lootboxes were made to target children & problem gamblers; people with low self-control, to milk every last cent.

This is a FACT, regardless of anyone's opinion on what THEY feel lootboxes are. This is why lootboxes are being pushed back against. And no one's opinion can change a fact.

(edited for baiting)