As many countries are debating lootbox legality, how about getting rid of or replacing Crown Crates?

Anotherone773 · January 2020

Contaminate wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

I'm done. I can't understand people who can watch companies take advantage of people with actual problems and say 'Durr! Well, it's not illegal YET! So it's fine!'

Just because something is legal does not mean it's not immoral, or evil, or should not be changed.

You people disgust me. Continue to keep your eyes closed and pretend legal = right so you never have to feel bad for anyone that's not you.

Freaking disgusting.

If you said you didn't like loot crates, or felt they were poor game design or something, I might get behind you. But calling it immoral is wrong. You are confusing your moral compass with the law.

The U.S. acted similarly with alcohol. In the U.S., laws (Prohibition) were made to 'protect' people from the evils of alcohol abuse. These laws didn't help at all.

Now every beer, wine, and spirits manufacturer in the U.S. prints warnings on their labels to educate people of their responsibility. Employers offer support for employees with drinking problems so that they can help themselves. Legally, no one is a victim because there is evidence to suggest that some people are predisposed to having this problem whatever the law may be. This is why Prohibition was repealed. Moral laws are not superior to ethical laws.

Educating people of their responsibilities early in life is the way to go. Some things are addictive, and education is what keeps people from feeling like a victim.

Hey! Guess what?
Murder? Immoral and illegal.
Theft? Immoral and illegal!
False Advertising (IE: Lying, for the purpose of making money)? IMMORAL AND ILLEGAL!

But sure; cherry pick the one thing that went bad, for your case.

Sorry but you're wrong on a MORAL level. Being a decent human being means not taking advantage of, and not ALLOWING OTHERS to take advantage of people with problems.

Shrugging and saying 'it's legal' is the coward's way of living.

We need to educate the COMPANIES to stop doing this garbage and crate NEW LAWS as civilization progresses. It's kind of what decent human beings do.

I’m getting lost in this conversation are you talking about predatory lootboxes or Crown Crates because they’re both very very different.

Everyone here is defending Crown Crates, not predatory lootboxes.

It also seems like you’re taking this a bit too emotionally.

Crown Crates are lootboxes. Don’t be intentionally dense

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

I'm done. I can't understand people who can watch companies take advantage of people with actual problems and say 'Durr! Well, it's not illegal YET! So it's fine!'

Just because something is legal does not mean it's not immoral, or evil, or should not be changed.

You people disgust me. Continue to keep your eyes closed and pretend legal = right so you never have to feel bad for anyone that's not you.

Freaking disgusting.

If you said you didn't like loot crates, or felt they were poor game design or something, I might get behind you. But calling it immoral is wrong. You are confusing your moral compass with the law.

The U.S. acted similarly with alcohol. In the U.S., laws (Prohibition) were made to 'protect' people from the evils of alcohol abuse. These laws didn't help at all.

Now every beer, wine, and spirits manufacturer in the U.S. prints warnings on their labels to educate people of their responsibility. Employers offer support for employees with drinking problems so that they can help themselves. Legally, no one is a victim because there is evidence to suggest that some people are predisposed to having this problem whatever the law may be. This is why Prohibition was repealed. Moral laws are not superior to ethical laws.

Educating people of their responsibilities early in life is the way to go. Some things are addictive, and education is what keeps people from feeling like a victim.

Hey! Guess what?
Murder? Immoral and illegal.
Theft? Immoral and illegal!
False Advertising (IE: Lying, for the purpose of making money)? IMMORAL AND ILLEGAL!

But sure; cherry pick the one thing that went bad, for your case.

Sorry but you're wrong on a MORAL level. Being a decent human being means not taking advantage of, and not ALLOWING OTHERS to take advantage of people with problems.

Shrugging and saying 'it's legal' is the coward's way of living.

We need to educate the COMPANIES to stop doing this garbage and crate NEW LAWS as civilization progresses. It's kind of what decent human beings do.

I’m getting lost in this conversation are you talking about predatory lootboxes or Crown Crates because they’re both very very different.

Everyone here is defending Crown Crates, not predatory lootboxes.

It also seems like you’re taking this a bit too emotionally.

Crown crates ARE lootboxes. They work exactly like lootboxes. The only difference is that you buy fake money with real money.
And that's just a trick to sidestep current laws. In every way, crown crates ARE lootboxes.

You buy them
You open them.
You get random crap on a scale from common to ultra uber rare.
The best items have a low drop rate to 'encourage' people to keep trying to get that skin or item they really really want!

So in what way are crown crates NOT lootboxes?

Contaminate wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

I'm done. I can't understand people who can watch companies take advantage of people with actual problems and say 'Durr! Well, it's not illegal YET! So it's fine!'

Just because something is legal does not mean it's not immoral, or evil, or should not be changed.

You people disgust me. Continue to keep your eyes closed and pretend legal = right so you never have to feel bad for anyone that's not you.

Freaking disgusting.

If you said you didn't like loot crates, or felt they were poor game design or something, I might get behind you. But calling it immoral is wrong. You are confusing your moral compass with the law.

The U.S. acted similarly with alcohol. In the U.S., laws (Prohibition) were made to 'protect' people from the evils of alcohol abuse. These laws didn't help at all.

Now every beer, wine, and spirits manufacturer in the U.S. prints warnings on their labels to educate people of their responsibility. Employers offer support for employees with drinking problems so that they can help themselves. Legally, no one is a victim because there is evidence to suggest that some people are predisposed to having this problem whatever the law may be. This is why Prohibition was repealed. Moral laws are not superior to ethical laws.

Educating people of their responsibilities early in life is the way to go. Some things are addictive, and education is what keeps people from feeling like a victim.

Hey! Guess what?
Murder? Immoral and illegal.
Theft? Immoral and illegal!
False Advertising (IE: Lying, for the purpose of making money)? IMMORAL AND ILLEGAL!

But sure; cherry pick the one thing that went bad, for your case.

Sorry but you're wrong on a MORAL level. Being a decent human being means not taking advantage of, and not ALLOWING OTHERS to take advantage of people with problems.

Shrugging and saying 'it's legal' is the coward's way of living.

We need to educate the COMPANIES to stop doing this garbage and crate NEW LAWS as civilization progresses. It's kind of what decent human beings do.

I’m getting lost in this conversation are you talking about predatory lootboxes or Crown Crates because they’re both very very different.

Everyone here is defending Crown Crates, not predatory lootboxes.

It also seems like you’re taking this a bit too emotionally.

Crown Crates are lootboxes. Don’t be intentionally dense

You both are making strawman arguments because the people you quote say PREDATORY lootboxes and you drop the predatory from your rebuttal and argue that crown crates are lootboxes, which is not at all what they were arguing. They were arguing that crown crates are not PREDATORY lootboxes.

Akisohida · January 2020

Kahnak wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

I'm done. I can't understand people who can watch companies take advantage of people with actual problems and say 'Durr! Well, it's not illegal YET! So it's fine!'

Just because something is legal does not mean it's not immoral, or evil, or should not be changed.

You people disgust me. Continue to keep your eyes closed and pretend legal = right so you never have to feel bad for anyone that's not you.

Freaking disgusting.

If you said you didn't like loot crates, or felt they were poor game design or something, I might get behind you. But calling it immoral is wrong. You are confusing your moral compass with the law.

The U.S. acted similarly with alcohol. In the U.S., laws (Prohibition) were made to 'protect' people from the evils of alcohol abuse. These laws didn't help at all.

Now every beer, wine, and spirits manufacturer in the U.S. prints warnings on their labels to educate people of their responsibility. Employers offer support for employees with drinking problems so that they can help themselves. Legally, no one is a victim because there is evidence to suggest that some people are predisposed to having this problem whatever the law may be. This is why Prohibition was repealed. Moral laws are not superior to ethical laws.

Educating people of their responsibilities early in life is the way to go. Some things are addictive, and education is what keeps people from feeling like a victim.

Hey! Guess what?
Murder? Immoral and illegal.
Theft? Immoral and illegal!
False Advertising (IE: Lying, for the purpose of making money)? IMMORAL AND ILLEGAL!

But sure; cherry pick the one thing that went bad, for your case.

Sorry but you're wrong on a MORAL level. Being a decent human being means not taking advantage of, and not ALLOWING OTHERS to take advantage of people with problems.

Shrugging and saying 'it's legal' is the coward's way of living.

We need to educate the COMPANIES to stop doing this garbage and crate NEW LAWS as civilization progresses. It's kind of what decent human beings do.

I’m getting lost in this conversation are you talking about predatory lootboxes or Crown Crates because they’re both very very different.

Everyone here is defending Crown Crates, not predatory lootboxes.

It also seems like you’re taking this a bit too emotionally.

Crown crates ARE lootboxes. They work exactly like lootboxes. The only difference is that you buy fake money with real money.
And that's just a trick to sidestep current laws. In every way, crown crates ARE lootboxes.

You buy them
You open them.
You get random crap on a scale from common to ultra uber rare.
The best items have a low drop rate to 'encourage' people to keep trying to get that skin or item they really really want!

So in what way are crown crates NOT lootboxes?

The point I was trying to make is that Crown Crates aren’t predatory.

If lootboxes are predatory.
And crown crates are lootboxes.
Crown crates != predatory

What? That makes no sense. Parsing error in line 3.

Crown crates are lootboxes.
Lootboxes are predatory.
Therefor, crown crates = predatory.

Contaminate wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

I'm done. I can't understand people who can watch companies take advantage of people with actual problems and say 'Durr! Well, it's not illegal YET! So it's fine!'

Just because something is legal does not mean it's not immoral, or evil, or should not be changed.

You people disgust me. Continue to keep your eyes closed and pretend legal = right so you never have to feel bad for anyone that's not you.

Freaking disgusting.

If you said you didn't like loot crates, or felt they were poor game design or something, I might get behind you. But calling it immoral is wrong. You are confusing your moral compass with the law.

The U.S. acted similarly with alcohol. In the U.S., laws (Prohibition) were made to 'protect' people from the evils of alcohol abuse. These laws didn't help at all.

Now every beer, wine, and spirits manufacturer in the U.S. prints warnings on their labels to educate people of their responsibility. Employers offer support for employees with drinking problems so that they can help themselves. Legally, no one is a victim because there is evidence to suggest that some people are predisposed to having this problem whatever the law may be. This is why Prohibition was repealed. Moral laws are not superior to ethical laws.

Educating people of their responsibilities early in life is the way to go. Some things are addictive, and education is what keeps people from feeling like a victim.

Hey! Guess what?
Murder? Immoral and illegal.
Theft? Immoral and illegal!
False Advertising (IE: Lying, for the purpose of making money)? IMMORAL AND ILLEGAL!

But sure; cherry pick the one thing that went bad, for your case.

Sorry but you're wrong on a MORAL level. Being a decent human being means not taking advantage of, and not ALLOWING OTHERS to take advantage of people with problems.

Shrugging and saying 'it's legal' is the coward's way of living.

We need to educate the COMPANIES to stop doing this garbage and crate NEW LAWS as civilization progresses. It's kind of what decent human beings do.

I’m getting lost in this conversation are you talking about predatory lootboxes or Crown Crates because they’re both very very different.

Everyone here is defending Crown Crates, not predatory lootboxes.

It also seems like you’re taking this a bit too emotionally.

Crown crates ARE lootboxes. They work exactly like lootboxes. The only difference is that you buy fake money with real money.
And that's just a trick to sidestep current laws. In every way, crown crates ARE lootboxes.

You buy them
You open them.
You get random crap on a scale from common to ultra uber rare.
The best items have a low drop rate to 'encourage' people to keep trying to get that skin or item they really really want!

So in what way are crown crates NOT lootboxes?

The point I was trying to make is that Crown Crates aren’t predatory.

If you stick your head in sand and ignore all of the research on the subject, then sure you can maintain that delusion

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

I'm done. I can't understand people who can watch companies take advantage of people with actual problems and say 'Durr! Well, it's not illegal YET! So it's fine!'

Just because something is legal does not mean it's not immoral, or evil, or should not be changed.

You people disgust me. Continue to keep your eyes closed and pretend legal = right so you never have to feel bad for anyone that's not you.

Freaking disgusting.

If you said you didn't like loot crates, or felt they were poor game design or something, I might get behind you. But calling it immoral is wrong. You are confusing your moral compass with the law.

The U.S. acted similarly with alcohol. In the U.S., laws (Prohibition) were made to 'protect' people from the evils of alcohol abuse. These laws didn't help at all.

Now every beer, wine, and spirits manufacturer in the U.S. prints warnings on their labels to educate people of their responsibility. Employers offer support for employees with drinking problems so that they can help themselves. Legally, no one is a victim because there is evidence to suggest that some people are predisposed to having this problem whatever the law may be. This is why Prohibition was repealed. Moral laws are not superior to ethical laws.

Educating people of their responsibilities early in life is the way to go. Some things are addictive, and education is what keeps people from feeling like a victim.

Hey! Guess what?
Murder? Immoral and illegal.
Theft? Immoral and illegal!
False Advertising (IE: Lying, for the purpose of making money)? IMMORAL AND ILLEGAL!

But sure; cherry pick the one thing that went bad, for your case.

Sorry but you're wrong on a MORAL level. Being a decent human being means not taking advantage of, and not ALLOWING OTHERS to take advantage of people with problems.

Shrugging and saying 'it's legal' is the coward's way of living.

We need to educate the COMPANIES to stop doing this garbage and crate NEW LAWS as civilization progresses. It's kind of what decent human beings do.

I’m getting lost in this conversation are you talking about predatory lootboxes or Crown Crates because they’re both very very different.

Everyone here is defending Crown Crates, not predatory lootboxes.

It also seems like you’re taking this a bit too emotionally.

Crown crates ARE lootboxes. They work exactly like lootboxes. The only difference is that you buy fake money with real money.
And that's just a trick to sidestep current laws. In every way, crown crates ARE lootboxes.

You buy them
You open them.
You get random crap on a scale from common to ultra uber rare.
The best items have a low drop rate to 'encourage' people to keep trying to get that skin or item they really really want!

So in what way are crown crates NOT lootboxes?

The point I was trying to make is that Crown Crates aren’t predatory.

If lootboxes are predatory.
And crown crates are lootboxes.
Crown crates != predatory

What? That makes no sense. Parsing error in line 3.

Crown crates are lootboxes.
Lootboxes are predatory.
Therefor, crown crates = predatory.

Calling something predatory because less than 3% of the population have an issue with gambling addiction does not qualify it as predatory. Call it gambling, give it an ESRB warning and make the game 18+. It's not predatory simply because people with addictive personalities exist.

It's meant to PREY on people with addictive personalities. Therefor, it's predatory.

Just because you want to us e verbal acrobatics to ignore the problem, does not mean it's not a problem.

It's meant to make money. It's not inherently predatory. I'm not a victim simply because I spent real money on digital products.

It's predatory to make MORE money. Investors want ALL your money. Predatory lootboxes help make that happen.

RGD · January 2020

Loot boxes are more predatory in nature than buying a product outright or earning it. It's banking on you spending money for the chance at receiving the item, then goading you into thinking the more you spend, the higher chance you get to attain the item you want. It's manipulative.

But, as you who keep insisting for some reason that loot boxes are a superior monitisation system to a more direct means of purchase, give me a few reasons why you think they're so fun, fair, and a valuable part of the game versus buying something or earning it directly.

Akisohida · January 2020

I've fully said my piece now. I even linked evidence that lootboxes are predatory and people want to warble 'Buh crown crates are nuh lootboxes!'

Stick your head in the sand. Just know that companies prey on people BECAUSE people like you let it happen instead of fighting for change to protect people.

I'm out. Continue being terrible people, and continue being wrung for every penny by companies laughing to the bank over how you protect them and allow them to abuse people.

The reason lootboxes 'prey' on gambling addicts is because they. Are. gambling. You spend money to try and get a 'good payout'. IE: the ultra rare items.

It's being scientifically proven, and you people want to plug your ears because it does not hurt YOU. Grow up and think of others.

Coppes · January 2020

Last I checked, the game didn’t tell me to buy Crown Crates. I didn’t get barraged by ads telling my BUY BUY BUY. Neither did the game or ZoS actively seek to get me to buy Crown Crates with false promises ever.

Odovacar · January 2020

I know too many people who spend crazy amounts of money in the CS. I don't know if they really have a problem or they just have lots of extra income. Either way it's none of my business.

To me nothing in the store is really ever appealing to me, but that's just me. I usually spend my ESO+ stipend on a race/name change here and there and the occasional style packs when they come out.

Crates have been more than terrible RNG wise to me and they're stupid expensive, I mean, 15 US dollars just for 4! Even right now there's a active thread talking about a housing statue that's 4000 crowns, super crazy and sadly it doesn't surprise me one bit.

All in all ESO and other games alike will continue to soak the masses with their loot crates and other micro transaction items for the foreseeable future. Large developer companies have more money to lobby their way out of potential regulations for a long time.

RGD · January 2020

Spaceroamer wrote: »

I’m honestly thinking right now that people are trying to get Crown Crates removed, not for the people who are addicted, but because they want to directly purchase Crown Crate items. And are using people who addicted to hide behind that reason.

Crown Crates cause more problems than any other monetisation system. How is it relevent if people DO want crown crates removed because they want the things to be a direct no-nonsense purchase? While I acknowledge that they are addictive, and cause issues for people, they're a lame way to cheat money out of people rather than being upfront and honest about the things they sell. ZOS doesn't NEED crown crates.

You pay for the game, you can pay for crown store items, you can pay for DLC, you can pay for chapters, you can pay for COLLECTOR versions of those chapters, you can pay for a subscription service for the game, you can pay for convenience items in the store such as riding skill, potions, food, skyshards, etc. The game has more than enough ways of gaining a consistent flow of income. The crown crates were just shoehorned in with pretty items to goad the wealthier or more gambling susceptible folk into paying an outrageous amount for a digital horse.

Bradyfjord · January 2020

Akisohida wrote: »

I've fully said my piece now. I even linked evidence that lootboxes are predatory and people want to warble 'Buh crown crates are nuh lootboxes!'

Stick your head in the sand. Just know that companies prey on people BECAUSE people like you let it happen instead of fighting for change to protect people.

I'm out. Continue being terrible people, and continue being wrung for every penny by companies laughing to the bank over how you protect them and allow them to abuse people.

The reason lootboxes 'prey' on gambling addicts is because they. Are. gambling. You spend money to try and get a 'good payout'. IE: the ultra rare items.

It's being scientifically proven, and you people want to plug your ears because it does not hurt YOU. Grow up and think of others.

And you're ignoring that gambling addicts need to own their problems and get help. But you don't want to help them do you?

Coppes · January 2020

Odovacar wrote: »

I know too many people who spend crazy amounts of money in the CS. I don't know if they really have a problem or they just have lots of extra income. Either way it's none of my business.

To me nothing in the store is really ever appealing to me, but that's just me. I usually spend my ESO+ stipend on a race/name change here and there and the occasional style packs when they come out.

Crates have been more than terrible RNG wise to me and they're stupid expensive, I mean, 15 US dollars just for 4! Even right now there's a active thread talking about a housing statue that's 4000 crowns, super crazy and sadly it doesn't surprise me one bit.

All in all ESO and other games alike will continue to soak the masses with their loot crates and other micro transaction items for the foreseeable future. Large developer companies have more money to lobby their way out of potential regulations for a long time.

The difference is the CSGO is actually gambling. As you can sell knives, etc for real life money.

RGD · January 2020

Spaceroamer wrote: »

The difference is the CSGO is actually gambling. As you can sell knives, etc for real life money.

What is it you do with your money when you purchase the crown crates? You know you don't want 8 duplicates of a tribal body tattoo and a handful of potions. You want the shiny horse. I'll spell it out for you. You. G. A. M. B. L. E. the money in hopes to receive the shiny horse. There's a high chance, just like the lottery, or any casino game or any loot box, that you'll get diddly squat. But you buy in to the dream of getting the shiny horse. It's gambling regardless of you getting to sell on the shiny horse or not. Actually, it's worse, because at the very least if you get something nice in CSGO, and later you grow out of the game, you can make your money back or perhaps more, in ESO, you will never get that money back, ever.

Kahnak · January 2020

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

I'm done. I can't understand people who can watch companies take advantage of people with actual problems and say 'Durr! Well, it's not illegal YET! So it's fine!'

Just because something is legal does not mean it's not immoral, or evil, or should not be changed.

You people disgust me. Continue to keep your eyes closed and pretend legal = right so you never have to feel bad for anyone that's not you.

Freaking disgusting.

If you said you didn't like loot crates, or felt they were poor game design or something, I might get behind you. But calling it immoral is wrong. You are confusing your moral compass with the law.

The U.S. acted similarly with alcohol. In the U.S., laws (Prohibition) were made to 'protect' people from the evils of alcohol abuse. These laws didn't help at all.

Now every beer, wine, and spirits manufacturer in the U.S. prints warnings on their labels to educate people of their responsibility. Employers offer support for employees with drinking problems so that they can help themselves. Legally, no one is a victim because there is evidence to suggest that some people are predisposed to having this problem whatever the law may be. This is why Prohibition was repealed. Moral laws are not superior to ethical laws.

Educating people of their responsibilities early in life is the way to go. Some things are addictive, and education is what keeps people from feeling like a victim.

Hey! Guess what?
Murder? Immoral and illegal.
Theft? Immoral and illegal!
False Advertising (IE: Lying, for the purpose of making money)? IMMORAL AND ILLEGAL!

But sure; cherry pick the one thing that went bad, for your case.

Sorry but you're wrong on a MORAL level. Being a decent human being means not taking advantage of, and not ALLOWING OTHERS to take advantage of people with problems.

Shrugging and saying 'it's legal' is the coward's way of living.

We need to educate the COMPANIES to stop doing this garbage and crate NEW LAWS as civilization progresses. It's kind of what decent human beings do.

I’m getting lost in this conversation are you talking about predatory lootboxes or Crown Crates because they’re both very very different.

Everyone here is defending Crown Crates, not predatory lootboxes.

It also seems like you’re taking this a bit too emotionally.

Crown crates ARE lootboxes. They work exactly like lootboxes. The only difference is that you buy fake money with real money.
And that's just a trick to sidestep current laws. In every way, crown crates ARE lootboxes.

You buy them
You open them.
You get random crap on a scale from common to ultra uber rare.
The best items have a low drop rate to 'encourage' people to keep trying to get that skin or item they really really want!

So in what way are crown crates NOT lootboxes?

The point I was trying to make is that Crown Crates aren’t predatory.

If lootboxes are predatory.
And crown crates are lootboxes.
Crown crates != predatory

What? That makes no sense. Parsing error in line 3.

Crown crates are lootboxes.
Lootboxes are predatory.
Therefor, crown crates = predatory.

Contaminate wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

I'm done. I can't understand people who can watch companies take advantage of people with actual problems and say 'Durr! Well, it's not illegal YET! So it's fine!'

Just because something is legal does not mean it's not immoral, or evil, or should not be changed.

You people disgust me. Continue to keep your eyes closed and pretend legal = right so you never have to feel bad for anyone that's not you.

Freaking disgusting.

If you said you didn't like loot crates, or felt they were poor game design or something, I might get behind you. But calling it immoral is wrong. You are confusing your moral compass with the law.

The U.S. acted similarly with alcohol. In the U.S., laws (Prohibition) were made to 'protect' people from the evils of alcohol abuse. These laws didn't help at all.

Now every beer, wine, and spirits manufacturer in the U.S. prints warnings on their labels to educate people of their responsibility. Employers offer support for employees with drinking problems so that they can help themselves. Legally, no one is a victim because there is evidence to suggest that some people are predisposed to having this problem whatever the law may be. This is why Prohibition was repealed. Moral laws are not superior to ethical laws.

Educating people of their responsibilities early in life is the way to go. Some things are addictive, and education is what keeps people from feeling like a victim.

Hey! Guess what?
Murder? Immoral and illegal.
Theft? Immoral and illegal!
False Advertising (IE: Lying, for the purpose of making money)? IMMORAL AND ILLEGAL!

But sure; cherry pick the one thing that went bad, for your case.

Sorry but you're wrong on a MORAL level. Being a decent human being means not taking advantage of, and not ALLOWING OTHERS to take advantage of people with problems.

Shrugging and saying 'it's legal' is the coward's way of living.

We need to educate the COMPANIES to stop doing this garbage and crate NEW LAWS as civilization progresses. It's kind of what decent human beings do.

I’m getting lost in this conversation are you talking about predatory lootboxes or Crown Crates because they’re both very very different.

Everyone here is defending Crown Crates, not predatory lootboxes.

It also seems like you’re taking this a bit too emotionally.

Crown crates ARE lootboxes. They work exactly like lootboxes. The only difference is that you buy fake money with real money.
And that's just a trick to sidestep current laws. In every way, crown crates ARE lootboxes.

You buy them
You open them.
You get random crap on a scale from common to ultra uber rare.
The best items have a low drop rate to 'encourage' people to keep trying to get that skin or item they really really want!

So in what way are crown crates NOT lootboxes?

The point I was trying to make is that Crown Crates aren’t predatory.

If you stick your head in sand and ignore all of the research on the subject, then sure you can maintain that delusion

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

I'm done. I can't understand people who can watch companies take advantage of people with actual problems and say 'Durr! Well, it's not illegal YET! So it's fine!'

Just because something is legal does not mean it's not immoral, or evil, or should not be changed.

You people disgust me. Continue to keep your eyes closed and pretend legal = right so you never have to feel bad for anyone that's not you.

Freaking disgusting.

If you said you didn't like loot crates, or felt they were poor game design or something, I might get behind you. But calling it immoral is wrong. You are confusing your moral compass with the law.

The U.S. acted similarly with alcohol. In the U.S., laws (Prohibition) were made to 'protect' people from the evils of alcohol abuse. These laws didn't help at all.

Now every beer, wine, and spirits manufacturer in the U.S. prints warnings on their labels to educate people of their responsibility. Employers offer support for employees with drinking problems so that they can help themselves. Legally, no one is a victim because there is evidence to suggest that some people are predisposed to having this problem whatever the law may be. This is why Prohibition was repealed. Moral laws are not superior to ethical laws.

Educating people of their responsibilities early in life is the way to go. Some things are addictive, and education is what keeps people from feeling like a victim.

Hey! Guess what?
Murder? Immoral and illegal.
Theft? Immoral and illegal!
False Advertising (IE: Lying, for the purpose of making money)? IMMORAL AND ILLEGAL!

But sure; cherry pick the one thing that went bad, for your case.

Sorry but you're wrong on a MORAL level. Being a decent human being means not taking advantage of, and not ALLOWING OTHERS to take advantage of people with problems.

Shrugging and saying 'it's legal' is the coward's way of living.

We need to educate the COMPANIES to stop doing this garbage and crate NEW LAWS as civilization progresses. It's kind of what decent human beings do.

I’m getting lost in this conversation are you talking about predatory lootboxes or Crown Crates because they’re both very very different.

Everyone here is defending Crown Crates, not predatory lootboxes.

It also seems like you’re taking this a bit too emotionally.

Crown crates ARE lootboxes. They work exactly like lootboxes. The only difference is that you buy fake money with real money.
And that's just a trick to sidestep current laws. In every way, crown crates ARE lootboxes.

You buy them
You open them.
You get random crap on a scale from common to ultra uber rare.
The best items have a low drop rate to 'encourage' people to keep trying to get that skin or item they really really want!

So in what way are crown crates NOT lootboxes?

The point I was trying to make is that Crown Crates aren’t predatory.

If lootboxes are predatory.
And crown crates are lootboxes.
Crown crates != predatory

What? That makes no sense. Parsing error in line 3.

Crown crates are lootboxes.
Lootboxes are predatory.
Therefor, crown crates = predatory.

Calling something predatory because less than 3% of the population have an issue with gambling addiction does not qualify it as predatory. Call it gambling, give it an ESRB warning and make the game 18+. It's not predatory simply because people with addictive personalities exist.

The game is already 18+ too. So that’s one step done.

That was a generalization.

Akisohida wrote: »

I've fully said my piece now. I even linked evidence that lootboxes are predatory and people want to warble 'Buh crown crates are nuh lootboxes!'

Stick your head in the sand. Just know that companies prey on people BECAUSE people like you let it happen instead of fighting for change to protect people.

I'm out. Continue being terrible people, and continue being wrung for every penny by companies laughing to the bank over how you protect them and allow them to abuse people.

The reason lootboxes 'prey' on gambling addicts is because they. Are. gambling. You spend money to try and get a 'good payout'. IE: the ultra rare items.

It's being scientifically proven, and you people want to plug your ears because it does not hurt YOU. Grow up and think of others.

I'm sure history will remember how morally superior you were on the ESO forums.

Anotherone773 · January 2020

My wife wants to know if she has an addiction to crown crates and predatory lootboxes

Odovacar · January 2020

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Odovacar wrote: »

I know too many people who spend crazy amounts of money in the CS. I don't know if they really have a problem or they just have lots of extra income. Either way it's none of my business.

To me nothing in the store is really ever appealing to me, but that's just me. I usually spend my ESO+ stipend on a race/name change here and there and the occasional style packs when they come out.

Crates have been more than terrible RNG wise to me and they're stupid expensive, I mean, 15 US dollars just for 4! Even right now there's a active thread talking about a housing statue that's 4000 crowns, super crazy and sadly it doesn't surprise me one bit.

All in all ESO and other games alike will continue to soak the masses with their loot crates and other micro transaction items for the foreseeable future. Large developer companies have more money to lobby their way out of potential regulations for a long time.

The difference is the CSGO is actually gambling. As you can sell knives, etc for real life money.

Never played it so idk man.

Kahnak · January 2020

RGD wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

I’m honestly thinking right now that people are trying to get Crown Crates removed, not for the people who are addicted, but because they want to directly purchase Crown Crate items. And are using people who addicted to hide behind that reason.

Crown Crates cause more problems than any other monetisation system. How is it relevent if people DO want crown crates removed because they want the things to be a direct no-nonsense purchase? While I acknowledge that they are addictive, and cause issues for people, they're a lame way to cheat money out of people rather than being upfront and honest about the things they sell. ZOS doesn't NEED crown crates.

You pay for the game, you can pay for crown store items, you can pay for DLC, you can pay for chapters, you can pay for COLLECTOR versions of those chapters, you can pay for a subscription service for the game, you can pay for convenience items in the store such as riding skill, potions, food, skyshards, etc. The game has more than enough ways of gaining a consistent flow of income. The crown crates were just shoehorned in with pretty items to goad the wealthier or more gambling susceptible folk into paying an outrageous amount for a digital horse.

"Crown Crates cause more problems than any other monetisation system."

Receipts, please.

"While I acknowledge that they are addictive, and cause issues for people, they're a lame way to cheat money out of people rather than being upfront and honest about the things they sell. ZOS doesn't NEED crown crates."

People don't spend money on crown crates because there is an expectation that they are going to get exactly what they want. No is one spending money on something that you've correctly identified as a gambling mechanic because it is fair or honest.

"You pay for the game, you can pay for crown store items, you can pay for DLC, you can pay for chapters, you can pay for COLLECTOR versions of those chapters, you can pay for a subscription service for the game, you can pay for convenience items in the store such as riding skill, potions, food, skyshards, etc. The game has more than enough ways of gaining a consistent flow of income. The crown crates were just shoehorned in with pretty items to goad the wealthier or more gambling susceptible folk into paying an outrageous amount for a digital horse."

You can pay for Crown Crates in order to try and get one of those pretty items that you like, or not. Pretending that Crown Crates exist ONLY to take advantage of the 2.6% of the population that have issues with gambling is a ridiculous premise.

RGD · January 2020

Anotherone773 wrote: »

My wife wants to know if she has an addiction to crown crates and predatory lootboxes

Probably not considering she purchased the box of Pinot Grigio directly instead of paying money to a website and *MAYBE* receiving the drink.

oddbasket · January 2020

All loot boxes and gambling mechanics such as wheelspins and lucky draws are predatory, including Crown Crates.

The worst are those offered in EA Sports games, where they deliberately lock desirable athletes behind such mechanics. You've paid full price for a sports game and get the skeleton of a game where you can't even recruit or use athletes in the league without spending a fortune gambling for them.

The defense of Crown Crates is that there is nothing in it that is essential to play, or offers an advantage since the most desirable rewards are purely cosmetic. However, only the strong minded are the ones that ignore the fancy cosmetics, it is still predatory to the weak willed who can still get addicted by wanting to collect the rare cosmetics. Simply by having the rare item in the loot table hooks those people into believing they might get it on the next try even after multiple failures, no matter how small that chance is. Having a consolation system such as gems to ease the loss doesn't help, since it only encourages them to believe losing isn't completely bad so they are more likely to try again or spend more than they would have to get the rare item through the consolation system.

ZOS may not be forcing onto or pushing them aggressively to players, but by having it in the crown store for sale to everyone with the advertisements in the crown store home page and pop ups during log in and log out. It is similar to casting a wide net, not every gets netted, but the fish who can't help themselves gets baited and hooked.

Anotherone773 · January 2020

Kahnak wrote: »

You can pay for Crown Crates in order to try and get one of those pretty items that you like, or not. Pretending that Crown Crates exist ONLY to take advantage of the 2.6% of the population that have issues with gambling is a ridiculous premise.

It is also not a very sound business plan...

Marketing dept: " I know lets create an item that preys on 2.6% of the population when almost all of that population wont even ever play out game! We will be trillionaires!"

But then they had to give that wolf sheep's clothing...

Marketing Dept: " We can also make it so you get "gems" for duplicates and can trade in items for gems. You can then use gems to buy the items you want! "

Worse.predators.ever.

Anotherone773 · January 2020

RGD wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

My wife wants to know if she has an addiction to crown crates and predatory lootboxes

Probably not considering she purchased the box of Pinot Grigio directly instead of paying money to a website and *MAYBE* receiving the drink.

Sometimes when she pushes the button nothing comes out but the lootbox still appears full. That is predatory!!!! False advertising i say!It gives the impression the box is full even when their is nothing left in it. So you get a few glasses out of one box and it doesnt appear to be any more empty and your like " WOW! there could be 100 glasses of wine in this box!" and then suddenly its empty but you was expecting there to be more! But now you have to buy more because there isnt any left so you thought you was getting a good deal and getting wine for like $0.02 a glass But now its like 50 times that! That is predatory! PRED-A-TORE-EEEEEEEEEE i say!

( I can also make ridiculous arguments....but mine are more entertaining)

RGD · January 2020

I'm kinda over arguing with you few who just keep saying "LoOtBoXeS ArEn't PrEdAtOrY bEcAuSe i dOn't ThInK ThEy aRe" or "ThEy aReN't BaD bEcaUsE I dOn't MiNd WasTiNg MoNeY." It's becoming a broken record now. I've asked many times for the reasons why you think loot boxes are a good and fair way to monetise content, and you've provided nothing but contrary arguments and nonsensical statements like "I think they are consumer friendly" without really saying how. Gems don't count, as you cannot buy everything with gems and the rate at which you earn gems is very stunted unless you get very lucky or get high tier duplicates.

Loot boxes are just bad. Especially in games that aren't free to begin with, and even moreso when the same games have MANY ways of monetisation. There's a reason why people hate loot boxes, and why they're so controversial, it's for 2 big reasons, they are prone to exploit people with addictive tendancies, and they suck complete and total balls because there's such a high chance to waste money. No, seriously, it would be just as productive to burn your money. There's also a reason why people don't have a problem with buying things upfront, earning them or attaining stuff through battle pass type systems, it's because they don't feel cheap and exploitative. You pay, you receive what you want. Give and take. The only exception to this rule is when things are priced at ridiculous levels, which the controversy that may happen there is understandable, they're digital items in a video game.

Again, I'm over this pointless back and forth, I'm mostly convinced those of you arguing for loot boxes are either trolling and have nothing better to do with your time, or are ZOS employees. Why else would you argue for something so passionately that such a large portion of people dislike for very good reasons, other than getting paid for it or getting some pleasure out of getting a rise out of someone.

Have a nice day, muckers.

Kahnak · January 2020

RGD wrote: »

I'm kinda over arguing with you few who just keep saying "LoOtBoXeS ArEn't PrEdAtOrY bEcAuSe i dOn't ThInK ThEy aRe" or "ThEy aReN't BaD bEcaUsE I dOn't MiNd WasTiNg MoNeY." It's becoming a broken record now. I've asked many times for the reasons why you think loot boxes are a good and fair way to monetise content, and you've provided nothing but contrary arguments and nonsensical statements like "I think they are consumer friendly" without really saying how. Gems don't count, as you cannot buy everything with gems and the rate at which you earn gems is very stunted unless you get very lucky or get high tier duplicates.

Loot boxes are just bad. Especially in games that aren't free to begin with, and even moreso when the same games have MANY ways of monetisation. There's a reason why people hate loot boxes, and why they're so controversial, it's for 2 big reasons, they are prone to exploit people with addictive tendancies, and they suck complete and total balls because there's such a high chance to waste money. No, seriously, it would be just as productive to burn your money. There's also a reason why people don't have a problem with buying things upfront, earning them or attaining stuff through battle pass type systems, it's because they don't feel cheap and exploitative. You pay, you receive what you want. Give and take. The only exception to this rule is when things are priced at ridiculous levels, which the controversy that may happen there is understandable, they're digital items in a video game.

Again, I'm over this pointless back and forth, I'm mostly convinced those of you arguing for loot boxes are either trolling and have nothing better to do with your time, or are ZOS employees. Why else would you argue for something so passionately that such a large portion of people dislike for very good reasons, other than getting paid for it or getting some pleasure out of getting a rise out of someone.

Have a nice day, muckers.

"I'm kinda over arguing with you few who just keep saying "LoOtBoXeS ArEn't PrEdAtOrY bEcAuSe i dOn't ThInK ThEy aRe" or "ThEy aReN't BaD bEcaUsE I dOn't MiNd WasTiNg MoNeY." It's becoming a broken record now. I've asked many times for the reasons why you think loot boxes are a good and fair way to monetise content, and you've provided nothing but contrary arguments and nonsensical statements like "I think they are consumer friendly" without really saying how. Gems don't count, as you cannot buy everything with gems and the rate at which you earn gems is very stunted unless you get very lucky or get high tier duplicates."

PEOPLE DON'T GAMBLE BECAUSE THERE IS AN EXPECTATION OF FAIRNESS.

"Loot boxes are just bad. Especially in games that aren't free to begin with, and even moreso when the same games have MANY ways of monetisation. There's a reason why people hate loot boxes, and why they're so controversial, it's for 2 big reasons, they are prone to exploit people with addictive tendancies, and they suck complete and total balls because there's such a high chance to waste money. No, seriously, it would be just as productive to burn your money. There's also a reason why people don't have a problem with buying things upfront, earning them or attaining stuff through battle pass type systems, it's because they don't feel cheap and exploitative. You pay, you receive what you want. Give and take. The only exception to this rule is when things are priced at ridiculous levels, which the controversy that may happen there is understandable, they're digital items in a video game."

The reason lootboxes are controversial, is because they are relatively unregulated and they were taking advantage of children who were playing games with no indication on the box that there were gambling mechanics. It's not because adults are in danger of getting addicted to something.

"Again, I'm over this pointless back and forth, I'm mostly convinced those of you arguing for loot boxes are either trolling and have nothing better to do with your time, or are ZOS employees. Why else would you argue for something so passionately that such a large portion of people dislike for very good reasons, other than getting paid for it or getting some pleasure out of getting a rise out of someone."

"I'm mostly convinced that the people that disagree with me are either trolls or ESO shills."

There we go poisoning the well, again. It can't possibly be because there is a flaw in your morality based argument.

RGD · January 2020

Anotherone773 wrote: »

RGD wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

My wife wants to know if she has an addiction to crown crates and predatory lootboxes

Probably not considering she purchased the box of Pinot Grigio directly instead of paying money to a website and *MAYBE* receiving the drink.

Sometimes when she pushes the button nothing comes out but the lootbox still appears full. That is predatory!!!! False advertising i say!It gives the impression the box is full even when their is nothing left in it. So you get a few glasses out of one box and it doesnt appear to be any more empty and your like " WOW! there could be 100 glasses of wine in this box!" and then suddenly its empty but you was expecting there to be more! But now you have to buy more because there isnt any left so you thought you was getting a good deal and getting wine for like $0.02 a glass But now its like 50 times that! That is predatory! PRED-A-TORE-EEEEEEEEEE i say!

( I can also make ridiculous arguments....but mine are more entertaining)

I'll agree with you on one thing, that was a ridiculous argument. And it wasn't in any way entertaining, it was just a bit cringey, really.

Agenericname · January 2020

RGD wrote: »

I'm kinda over arguing with you few who just keep saying "LoOtBoXeS ArEn't PrEdAtOrY bEcAuSe i dOn't ThInK ThEy aRe" or "ThEy aReN't BaD bEcaUsE I dOn't MiNd WasTiNg MoNeY." It's becoming a broken record now. I've asked many times for the reasons why you think loot boxes are a good and fair way to monetise content, and you've provided nothing but contrary arguments and nonsensical statements like "I think they are consumer friendly" without really saying how. Gems don't count, as you cannot buy everything with gems and the rate at which you earn gems is very stunted unless you get very lucky or get high tier duplicates.

Loot boxes are just bad. Especially in games that aren't free to begin with, and even moreso when the same games have MANY ways of monetisation. There's a reason why people hate loot boxes, and why they're so controversial, it's for 2 big reasons, they are prone to exploit people with addictive tendancies, and they suck complete and total balls because there's such a high chance to waste money. No, seriously, it would be just as productive to burn your money. There's also a reason why people don't have a problem with buying things upfront, earning them or attaining stuff through battle pass type systems, it's because they don't feel cheap and exploitative. You pay, you receive what you want. Give and take. The only exception to this rule is when things are priced at ridiculous levels, which the controversy that may happen there is understandable, they're digital items in a video game.

Again, I'm over this pointless back and forth, I'm mostly convinced those of you arguing for loot boxes are either trolling and have nothing better to do with your time, or are ZOS employees. Why else would you argue for something so passionately that such a large portion of people dislike for very good reasons, other than getting paid for it or getting some pleasure out of getting a rise out of someone.

Have a nice day, muckers.

I do not need to believe that they're a good way to monetize in order to believe that they shouldn't be illegal. Legal and moral aren't the same thing and morality is a shifting scale. Even across a culture morals aren't completely shared. The laws however, in most cases are.

People deal with many types of addictions in all walks of life. Alcoholics shop in grocery stores that sell alcohol. Smokers or ex smokers do the same. People with addictions to gaming have access to the internet. Rates of addiction vary from person to person. Many people face these challenged every day.

They are bad. I wouldn't buy them, but it's their choice to sell it that way and mine to abstain.

No, it wouldn't be just as productive to burn your money. Realize that it is entertainment and don't spend your money on it if you're not happy with it. Donate that money to the local animal shelter. They're always in need. That's productive. Make some investments. Maybe kid's college fund.

Coppes · January 2020

Agenericname wrote: »

RGD wrote: »

I'm kinda over arguing with you few who just keep saying "LoOtBoXeS ArEn't PrEdAtOrY bEcAuSe i dOn't ThInK ThEy aRe" or "ThEy aReN't BaD bEcaUsE I dOn't MiNd WasTiNg MoNeY." It's becoming a broken record now. I've asked many times for the reasons why you think loot boxes are a good and fair way to monetise content, and you've provided nothing but contrary arguments and nonsensical statements like "I think they are consumer friendly" without really saying how. Gems don't count, as you cannot buy everything with gems and the rate at which you earn gems is very stunted unless you get very lucky or get high tier duplicates.

Loot boxes are just bad. Especially in games that aren't free to begin with, and even moreso when the same games have MANY ways of monetisation. There's a reason why people hate loot boxes, and why they're so controversial, it's for 2 big reasons, they are prone to exploit people with addictive tendancies, and they suck complete and total balls because there's such a high chance to waste money. No, seriously, it would be just as productive to burn your money. There's also a reason why people don't have a problem with buying things upfront, earning them or attaining stuff through battle pass type systems, it's because they don't feel cheap and exploitative. You pay, you receive what you want. Give and take. The only exception to this rule is when things are priced at ridiculous levels, which the controversy that may happen there is understandable, they're digital items in a video game.

Again, I'm over this pointless back and forth, I'm mostly convinced those of you arguing for loot boxes are either trolling and have nothing better to do with your time, or are ZOS employees. Why else would you argue for something so passionately that such a large portion of people dislike for very good reasons, other than getting paid for it or getting some pleasure out of getting a rise out of someone.

Have a nice day, muckers.

I do not need to believe that they're a good way to monetize in order to believe that they shouldn't be illegal. Legal and moral aren't the same thing and morality is a shifting scale. Even across a culture morals aren't completely shared. The laws however, in most cases are.

People deal with many types of addictions in all walks of life. Alcoholics shop in grocery stores that sell alcohol. Smokers or ex smokers do the same. People with addictions to gaming have access to the internet. Rates of addiction vary from person to person. Many people face these challenged every day.

They are bad. I wouldn't buy them, but it's their choice to sell it that way and mine to abstain.

No, it wouldn't be just as productive to burn your money. Realize that it is entertainment and don't spend your money on it if you're not happy with it. Donate that money to the local animal shelter. They're always in need. That's productive. Make some investments. Maybe kid's college fund.

/thread

Contaminate · January 2020

Kahnak wrote: »

RGD wrote: »

I'm kinda over arguing with you few who just keep saying "LoOtBoXeS ArEn't PrEdAtOrY bEcAuSe i dOn't ThInK ThEy aRe" or "ThEy aReN't BaD bEcaUsE I dOn't MiNd WasTiNg MoNeY." It's becoming a broken record now. I've asked many times for the reasons why you think loot boxes are a good and fair way to monetise content, and you've provided nothing but contrary arguments and nonsensical statements like "I think they are consumer friendly" without really saying how. Gems don't count, as you cannot buy everything with gems and the rate at which you earn gems is very stunted unless you get very lucky or get high tier duplicates.

Loot boxes are just bad. Especially in games that aren't free to begin with, and even moreso when the same games have MANY ways of monetisation. There's a reason why people hate loot boxes, and why they're so controversial, it's for 2 big reasons, they are prone to exploit people with addictive tendancies, and they suck complete and total balls because there's such a high chance to waste money. No, seriously, it would be just as productive to burn your money. There's also a reason why people don't have a problem with buying things upfront, earning them or attaining stuff through battle pass type systems, it's because they don't feel cheap and exploitative. You pay, you receive what you want. Give and take. The only exception to this rule is when things are priced at ridiculous levels, which the controversy that may happen there is understandable, they're digital items in a video game.

Again, I'm over this pointless back and forth, I'm mostly convinced those of you arguing for loot boxes are either trolling and have nothing better to do with your time, or are ZOS employees. Why else would you argue for something so passionately that such a large portion of people dislike for very good reasons, other than getting paid for it or getting some pleasure out of getting a rise out of someone.

Have a nice day, muckers.

"I'm kinda over arguing with you few who just keep saying "LoOtBoXeS ArEn't PrEdAtOrY bEcAuSe i dOn't ThInK ThEy aRe" or "ThEy aReN't BaD bEcaUsE I dOn't MiNd WasTiNg MoNeY." It's becoming a broken record now. I've asked many times for the reasons why you think loot boxes are a good and fair way to monetise content, and you've provided nothing but contrary arguments and nonsensical statements like "I think they are consumer friendly" without really saying how. Gems don't count, as you cannot buy everything with gems and the rate at which you earn gems is very stunted unless you get very lucky or get high tier duplicates."

PEOPLE DON'T GAMBLE BECAUSE THERE IS AN EXPECTATION OF FAIRNESS.

"Loot boxes are just bad. Especially in games that aren't free to begin with, and even moreso when the same games have MANY ways of monetisation. There's a reason why people hate loot boxes, and why they're so controversial, it's for 2 big reasons, they are prone to exploit people with addictive tendancies, and they suck complete and total balls because there's such a high chance to waste money. No, seriously, it would be just as productive to burn your money. There's also a reason why people don't have a problem with buying things upfront, earning them or attaining stuff through battle pass type systems, it's because they don't feel cheap and exploitative. You pay, you receive what you want. Give and take. The only exception to this rule is when things are priced at ridiculous levels, which the controversy that may happen there is understandable, they're digital items in a video game."

The reason lootboxes are controversial, is because they are relatively unregulated and they were taking advantage of children who were playing games with no indication on the box that there were gambling mechanics. It's not because adults are in danger of getting addicted to something.

"Again, I'm over this pointless back and forth, I'm mostly convinced those of you arguing for loot boxes are either trolling and have nothing better to do with your time, or are ZOS employees. Why else would you argue for something so passionately that such a large portion of people dislike for very good reasons, other than getting paid for it or getting some pleasure out of getting a rise out of someone."

"I'm mostly convinced that the people that disagree with me are either trolls or ESO shills."

There we go poisoning the well, again. It can't possibly be because there is a flaw in your morality based argument.

People gamble with crates because there’s no alternatives to get the cosmetics locked behind them.

So many people wanted that Maormer skin, then it got shoved into crates instead of being offered for sale.

There is no flaw in noticing how loot boxes are predatory by design. It’s a scam to get more money for no more content. Its entire purpose is to wring players out of money.

There is however a huge flaw in claiming otherwise or claiming blatantly manipulative marketing is healthy for anyone.

RGD · January 2020

Contaminate wrote: »

People gamble with crates because there’s no alternatives to get the cosmetics locked behind them.

So many people wanted that Maormer skin, then it got shoved into crates instead of being offered for sale.

There is no flaw in noticing how loot boxes are predatory by design. It’s a scam to get more money for no more content. Its entire purpose is to wring players out of money.

There is however a huge flaw in claiming otherwise or claiming blatantly manipulative marketing is healthy for anyone.

I like you.

Kahnak · January 2020

Contaminate wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

RGD wrote: »

I'm kinda over arguing with you few who just keep saying "LoOtBoXeS ArEn't PrEdAtOrY bEcAuSe i dOn't ThInK ThEy aRe" or "ThEy aReN't BaD bEcaUsE I dOn't MiNd WasTiNg MoNeY." It's becoming a broken record now. I've asked many times for the reasons why you think loot boxes are a good and fair way to monetise content, and you've provided nothing but contrary arguments and nonsensical statements like "I think they are consumer friendly" without really saying how. Gems don't count, as you cannot buy everything with gems and the rate at which you earn gems is very stunted unless you get very lucky or get high tier duplicates.

Loot boxes are just bad. Especially in games that aren't free to begin with, and even moreso when the same games have MANY ways of monetisation. There's a reason why people hate loot boxes, and why they're so controversial, it's for 2 big reasons, they are prone to exploit people with addictive tendancies, and they suck complete and total balls because there's such a high chance to waste money. No, seriously, it would be just as productive to burn your money. There's also a reason why people don't have a problem with buying things upfront, earning them or attaining stuff through battle pass type systems, it's because they don't feel cheap and exploitative. You pay, you receive what you want. Give and take. The only exception to this rule is when things are priced at ridiculous levels, which the controversy that may happen there is understandable, they're digital items in a video game.

Again, I'm over this pointless back and forth, I'm mostly convinced those of you arguing for loot boxes are either trolling and have nothing better to do with your time, or are ZOS employees. Why else would you argue for something so passionately that such a large portion of people dislike for very good reasons, other than getting paid for it or getting some pleasure out of getting a rise out of someone.

Have a nice day, muckers.

"I'm kinda over arguing with you few who just keep saying "LoOtBoXeS ArEn't PrEdAtOrY bEcAuSe i dOn't ThInK ThEy aRe" or "ThEy aReN't BaD bEcaUsE I dOn't MiNd WasTiNg MoNeY." It's becoming a broken record now. I've asked many times for the reasons why you think loot boxes are a good and fair way to monetise content, and you've provided nothing but contrary arguments and nonsensical statements like "I think they are consumer friendly" without really saying how. Gems don't count, as you cannot buy everything with gems and the rate at which you earn gems is very stunted unless you get very lucky or get high tier duplicates."

PEOPLE DON'T GAMBLE BECAUSE THERE IS AN EXPECTATION OF FAIRNESS.

"Loot boxes are just bad. Especially in games that aren't free to begin with, and even moreso when the same games have MANY ways of monetisation. There's a reason why people hate loot boxes, and why they're so controversial, it's for 2 big reasons, they are prone to exploit people with addictive tendancies, and they suck complete and total balls because there's such a high chance to waste money. No, seriously, it would be just as productive to burn your money. There's also a reason why people don't have a problem with buying things upfront, earning them or attaining stuff through battle pass type systems, it's because they don't feel cheap and exploitative. You pay, you receive what you want. Give and take. The only exception to this rule is when things are priced at ridiculous levels, which the controversy that may happen there is understandable, they're digital items in a video game."

The reason lootboxes are controversial, is because they are relatively unregulated and they were taking advantage of children who were playing games with no indication on the box that there were gambling mechanics. It's not because adults are in danger of getting addicted to something.

"Again, I'm over this pointless back and forth, I'm mostly convinced those of you arguing for loot boxes are either trolling and have nothing better to do with your time, or are ZOS employees. Why else would you argue for something so passionately that such a large portion of people dislike for very good reasons, other than getting paid for it or getting some pleasure out of getting a rise out of someone."

"I'm mostly convinced that the people that disagree with me are either trolls or ESO shills."

There we go poisoning the well, again. It can't possibly be because there is a flaw in your morality based argument.

People gamble with crates because there’s no alternatives to get the cosmetics locked behind them.

So many people wanted that Maormer skin, then it got shoved into crates instead of being offered for sale.

There is no flaw in noticing how loot boxes are predatory by design. It’s a scam to get more money for no more content. Its entire purpose is to wring players out of money.

There is however a huge flaw in claiming otherwise or claiming blatantly manipulative marketing is healthy for anyone.

"People gamble with crates because there’s no alternatives to get the cosmetics locked behind them."

Correct, that is the whole point. Thank you for stating the obvious.

"So many people wanted that Maormer skin, then it got shoved into crates instead of being offered for sale."

Yep, just like 90% of all of the other skins. You might say, it was put into the crates BECAUSE so many people wanted it.

"There is no flaw in noticing how loot boxes are predatory by design. It’s a scam to get more money for no more content. Its entire purpose is to wring players out of money."

Except you've failed to provide anything that would indicate that lootboxes are designed specifically to be predatory. It's not a scam to provide a service that is a gambling mechanic, neither is it against the law.

Its entire purpose is to wring players out of money

According to you, the whole purpose of lootboxes is to be predatory. Making money is obviously the whole purpose of lootboxes and making money isn't illegal. Players aren't being tricked into paying money for them.

"There is however a huge flaw in claiming otherwise or claiming blatantly manipulative marketing is healthy for anyone."

Apparently there is a huge flaw in any argument claiming otherwise, but you haven't bothered to provide any support for your own claim. The world is filled to the brim with blatantly manipulative marketing. Pretending that this is new or somehow more nefarious than the Taco Bell commercial you saw earlier today is being deliberately obtuse.

CMDR_Un1k0rn · January 2020

I will say this.

If people want to make changes happen, they need to spend less time screaming on a video game forum, as this isn't where the relevant people can be found.

The reality is that most of us simply do not have any power here on this issue, as we're just numbers. Sorry, but that's 21st century life.

In other words, it probably won't change, ever.

Fortunately, it is easy to control one's spending, and if you cannot... Well there are plenty of advice outlets available, many free.

Here's my mantra: You don't get to have everything you want.

Living on the breadline teaches you that quite well.It sucks, but accepting reality makes life much easier, and happier.

Minyassa · January 2020

The "battle pass" idea is just going to make a different portion of the playerbase scream. The PvP players will resent having to complete any PvE content in order to make a purchase. The PvE players will resent having to complete any PvP content in order to make a purchase. I don't like the loot crate system either but making items just off limits without having to do horrible game chores that ruin playtime isn't the answer either. Clearly they do need to do something, though, the loot crate system is terrible.

Contaminate · January 2020

Kahnak wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

RGD wrote: »

I'm kinda over arguing with you few who just keep saying "LoOtBoXeS ArEn't PrEdAtOrY bEcAuSe i dOn't ThInK ThEy aRe" or "ThEy aReN't BaD bEcaUsE I dOn't MiNd WasTiNg MoNeY." It's becoming a broken record now. I've asked many times for the reasons why you think loot boxes are a good and fair way to monetise content, and you've provided nothing but contrary arguments and nonsensical statements like "I think they are consumer friendly" without really saying how. Gems don't count, as you cannot buy everything with gems and the rate at which you earn gems is very stunted unless you get very lucky or get high tier duplicates.

Loot boxes are just bad. Especially in games that aren't free to begin with, and even moreso when the same games have MANY ways of monetisation. There's a reason why people hate loot boxes, and why they're so controversial, it's for 2 big reasons, they are prone to exploit people with addictive tendancies, and they suck complete and total balls because there's such a high chance to waste money. No, seriously, it would be just as productive to burn your money. There's also a reason why people don't have a problem with buying things upfront, earning them or attaining stuff through battle pass type systems, it's because they don't feel cheap and exploitative. You pay, you receive what you want. Give and take. The only exception to this rule is when things are priced at ridiculous levels, which the controversy that may happen there is understandable, they're digital items in a video game.

Again, I'm over this pointless back and forth, I'm mostly convinced those of you arguing for loot boxes are either trolling and have nothing better to do with your time, or are ZOS employees. Why else would you argue for something so passionately that such a large portion of people dislike for very good reasons, other than getting paid for it or getting some pleasure out of getting a rise out of someone.

Have a nice day, muckers.

"I'm kinda over arguing with you few who just keep saying "LoOtBoXeS ArEn't PrEdAtOrY bEcAuSe i dOn't ThInK ThEy aRe" or "ThEy aReN't BaD bEcaUsE I dOn't MiNd WasTiNg MoNeY." It's becoming a broken record now. I've asked many times for the reasons why you think loot boxes are a good and fair way to monetise content, and you've provided nothing but contrary arguments and nonsensical statements like "I think they are consumer friendly" without really saying how. Gems don't count, as you cannot buy everything with gems and the rate at which you earn gems is very stunted unless you get very lucky or get high tier duplicates."

PEOPLE DON'T GAMBLE BECAUSE THERE IS AN EXPECTATION OF FAIRNESS.

"Loot boxes are just bad. Especially in games that aren't free to begin with, and even moreso when the same games have MANY ways of monetisation. There's a reason why people hate loot boxes, and why they're so controversial, it's for 2 big reasons, they are prone to exploit people with addictive tendancies, and they suck complete and total balls because there's such a high chance to waste money. No, seriously, it would be just as productive to burn your money. There's also a reason why people don't have a problem with buying things upfront, earning them or attaining stuff through battle pass type systems, it's because they don't feel cheap and exploitative. You pay, you receive what you want. Give and take. The only exception to this rule is when things are priced at ridiculous levels, which the controversy that may happen there is understandable, they're digital items in a video game."

The reason lootboxes are controversial, is because they are relatively unregulated and they were taking advantage of children who were playing games with no indication on the box that there were gambling mechanics. It's not because adults are in danger of getting addicted to something.

"Again, I'm over this pointless back and forth, I'm mostly convinced those of you arguing for loot boxes are either trolling and have nothing better to do with your time, or are ZOS employees. Why else would you argue for something so passionately that such a large portion of people dislike for very good reasons, other than getting paid for it or getting some pleasure out of getting a rise out of someone."

"I'm mostly convinced that the people that disagree with me are either trolls or ESO shills."

There we go poisoning the well, again. It can't possibly be because there is a flaw in your morality based argument.

People gamble with crates because there’s no alternatives to get the cosmetics locked behind them.

So many people wanted that Maormer skin, then it got shoved into crates instead of being offered for sale.

There is no flaw in noticing how loot boxes are predatory by design. It’s a scam to get more money for no more content. Its entire purpose is to wring players out of money.

There is however a huge flaw in claiming otherwise or claiming blatantly manipulative marketing is healthy for anyone.

"People gamble with crates because there’s no alternatives to get the cosmetics locked behind them."

Correct, that is the whole point. Thank you for stating the obvious.

"So many people wanted that Maormer skin, then it got shoved into crates instead of being offered for sale."

Yep, just like 90% of all of the other skins. You might say, it was put into the crates BECAUSE so many people wanted it.

"There is no flaw in noticing how loot boxes are predatory by design. It’s a scam to get more money for no more content. Its entire purpose is to wring players out of money."

Except you've failed to provide anything that would indicate that lootboxes are designed specifically to be predatory. It's not a scam to provide a service that is a gambling mechanic, neither is it against the law.

Its entire purpose is to wring players out of money

According to you, the whole purpose of lootboxes is to be predatory. Making money is obviously the whole purpose of lootboxes and making money isn't illegal. Players aren't being tricked into paying money for them.

"There is however a huge flaw in claiming otherwise or claiming blatantly manipulative marketing is healthy for anyone."

Apparently there is a huge flaw in any argument claiming otherwise, but you haven't bothered to provide any support for your own claim. The world is filled to the brim with blatantly manipulative marketing. Pretending that this is new or somehow more nefarious than the Taco Bell commercial you saw earlier today is being deliberately obtuse.

You yourself in your own post display exactly why lootboxes are predatory and scummy.

“Yep, just like 90% of all of the other skins. You might say, it was put into the crates BECAUSE so many people wanted it.”

In your own words: It was put in Crates so players would have to gamble for it.

In case you don’t get it yet: ZOS required players gamble with real currency (and no bs Crowns are directly comparable to cash) in order to get an item that was highly desired, instead of offering it for flat sale, because it makes ZOS more money.

Ohtimbar · January 2020

I suspect loot crates and other similar crap will remain legal in most of the major markets, thus ensuring that the skewed, whale-driven business model will persist for some time to come. Legality aside, it says a lot about how this company and its execrable parent view us, their customers. Once I've wrung the last vestiges (!) of fun out of my account I'll move on to less predatory waters, for good.