As many countries are debating lootbox legality, how about getting rid of or replacing Crown Crates?

Coppes

Akisohida wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Maybe people should start taking responsibility for their actions.

They aren't "unhealthy" they aren't required. You don't have to have the items. If you feel like you can't help yourself and can't stop yourself from buying the items or crates then you should stop playing the game.

I do think they should just keep the crates, but make every item available at a gem rate. At least then you can extract gems from duplicate items or the massive stacks of potions and stuff and save up for what you want.

There are people with legitimate problems that mechanics like this are made to target.

Let me guess; (snip) people that would look at me, with autism that prevents me from working because I just can't interact with people in the flesh, and say 'Just try harder to be normal. I can do it, so you can, too!'

Because you can't comprehend that people are different from you, and that YOU can just not spend money on an abusive, addicting mechanic means EVERYONE can!

Hell. I linked to research earlier stating that lootboxes TARGET THESE PEOPLE and yet there are still idiots in this post AFTER that post that claim 'No one's given proof that lootboxes target people!'.

I gave the proof, and everyone defending this practice ignored it to continue arguing their side.

I don't care what anyone's opinion is. Opinions are rarely right or wrong; they are opinions.

But the FACT is that lootboxes were made to target children & problem gamblers; people with low self-control, to milk every last cent.

This is a FACT, regardless of anyone's opinion on what THEY feel lootboxes are. This is why lootboxes are being pushed back against. And no one's opinion can change a fact.

(edited for baiting)

Where’s you proof that ZoS’s lootboxes aim for your said targets.

Royaji

Akisohida wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Maybe people should start taking responsibility for their actions.

They aren't "unhealthy" they aren't required. You don't have to have the items. If you feel like you can't help yourself and can't stop yourself from buying the items or crates then you should stop playing the game.

I do think they should just keep the crates, but make every item available at a gem rate. At least then you can extract gems from duplicate items or the massive stacks of potions and stuff and save up for what you want.

Let me guess; (snip) people that would look at me, with autism that prevents me from working because I just can't interact with people in the flesh, and say 'Just try harder to be normal. I can do it, so you can, too!'

(edited for baiting)

No. But I would say that just because you are prevented from working because of your condition, I should not be legally resticted from working myself. Because that would be absurd.

The same applies to gambling and lootboxes. It should not be illegal for a random Joe (or me, but it's not really my thing) to have fun at a casino or with opening some lootboxes just because there are some people who have a serious gambling related condition.

Akisohida

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Maybe people should start taking responsibility for their actions.

They aren't "unhealthy" they aren't required. You don't have to have the items. If you feel like you can't help yourself and can't stop yourself from buying the items or crates then you should stop playing the game.

I do think they should just keep the crates, but make every item available at a gem rate. At least then you can extract gems from duplicate items or the massive stacks of potions and stuff and save up for what you want.

There are people with legitimate problems that mechanics like this are made to target.

Let me guess; you're one of those disgusting people that would look at me, with autism that prevents me from working because I just can't interact with people in the flesh, and say 'Just try harder to be normal. I can do it, so you can, too!'

Because you can't comprehend that people are different from you, and that YOU can just not spend money on an abusive, addicting mechanic means EVERYONE can!

Hell. I linked to research earlier stating that lootboxes TARGET THESE PEOPLE and yet there are still idiots in this post AFTER that post that claim 'No one's given proof that lootboxes target people!'.

I gave the proof, and everyone defending this practice ignored it to continue arguing their side.

I don't care what anyone's opinion is. Opinions are rarely right or wrong; they are opinions.

But the FACT is that lootboxes were made to target children & problem gamblers; people with low self-control, to milk every last cent.

This is a FACT, regardless of anyone's opinion on what THEY feel lootboxes are. This is why lootboxes are being pushed back against. And no one's opinion can change a fact.

Where’s you proof that ZoS’s lootboxes aim for your said targets.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0213194
'Previous research strongly suggested both the size and the direction of link between loot box use and problem gambling. This paper provides further support for this link. These results suggest either that loot boxes act as a gateway to problem gambling, or that individuals with gambling problems are drawn to spend more on loot boxes. In either case, we believe that these results suggest there is good reason to regulate loot boxes.'

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.190049#d3e2905
'Adolescent problem gamblers spent more than five times as much money on loot boxes than those who did not have a problem. Problem gambling and loot box spending were linked by an association of magnitude η2 = 0.120: more than twice as strong as the relationship seen recently in a similarly recruited adult population.
There is one clear conclusion that can be drawn from these results: when video game companies allow adolescents to buy loot boxes, they are potentially exposing them to negative consequences. It may be the case that loot box spending in adolescents causes problem gambling. It may be the case that loot boxes allow games companies to monetize problem gambling in these vulnerable populations for 11-digit annual profits. We believe that both relationships may potentially lead to serious adverse consequences for younger gamers.'

Should I continue?

And don't you dare try to claim ZoS's crates are not lootboxes;
You buy them with real money (Yes, you use fake money but you buy that fake money with real money. It's a BS tactic to trick people by saying 'Well TECHNICALLY..')

You get a randomized chance to get bad, good, and great items.

You have a lesser chance of getting a 'payout' of good/great items.

You can get duplicates that give you an small amount of a currency.


These are all things lootboxes do in any other game that actually calls them lootboxes. ZoS's crates are lootboxes. And lootboxes target those with problems.

Have I given enough proof now?

Coppes

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Maybe people should start taking responsibility for their actions.

They aren't "unhealthy" they aren't required. You don't have to have the items. If you feel like you can't help yourself and can't stop yourself from buying the items or crates then you should stop playing the game.

I do think they should just keep the crates, but make every item available at a gem rate. At least then you can extract gems from duplicate items or the massive stacks of potions and stuff and save up for what you want.

There are people with legitimate problems that mechanics like this are made to target.

Let me guess; you're one of those disgusting people that would look at me, with autism that prevents me from working because I just can't interact with people in the flesh, and say 'Just try harder to be normal. I can do it, so you can, too!'

Because you can't comprehend that people are different from you, and that YOU can just not spend money on an abusive, addicting mechanic means EVERYONE can!

Hell. I linked to research earlier stating that lootboxes TARGET THESE PEOPLE and yet there are still idiots in this post AFTER that post that claim 'No one's given proof that lootboxes target people!'.

I gave the proof, and everyone defending this practice ignored it to continue arguing their side.

I don't care what anyone's opinion is. Opinions are rarely right or wrong; they are opinions.

But the FACT is that lootboxes were made to target children & problem gamblers; people with low self-control, to milk every last cent.

This is a FACT, regardless of anyone's opinion on what THEY feel lootboxes are. This is why lootboxes are being pushed back against. And no one's opinion can change a fact.

Where’s you proof that ZoS’s lootboxes aim for your said targets.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0213194
'Previous research strongly suggested both the size and the direction of link between loot box use and problem gambling. This paper provides further support for this link. These results suggest either that loot boxes act as a gateway to problem gambling, or that individuals with gambling problems are drawn to spend more on loot boxes. In either case, we believe that these results suggest there is good reason to regulate loot boxes.'

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.190049#d3e2905
'Adolescent problem gamblers spent more than five times as much money on loot boxes than those who did not have a problem. Problem gambling and loot box spending were linked by an association of magnitude η2 = 0.120: more than twice as strong as the relationship seen recently in a similarly recruited adult population.
There is one clear conclusion that can be drawn from these results: when video game companies allow adolescents to buy loot boxes, they are potentially exposing them to negative consequences. It may be the case that loot box spending in adolescents causes problem gambling. It may be the case that loot boxes allow games companies to monetize problem gambling in these vulnerable populations for 11-digit annual profits. We believe that both relationships may potentially lead to serious adverse consequences for younger gamers.'

Should I continue?

And don't you dare try to claim ZoS's crates are not lootboxes;
You buy them with real money (Yes, you use fake money but you buy that fake money with real money. It's a BS tactic to trick people by saying 'Well TECHNICALLY..')

You get a randomized chance to get bad, good, and great items.

You have a lesser chance of getting a 'payout' of good/great items.

You can get duplicates that give you an small amount of a currency.


These are all things lootboxes do in any other game that actually calls them lootboxes. ZoS's crates are lootboxes. And lootboxes target those with problems.

Have I given enough proof now?

I said where does it say that ZoS is directly trying to target people with trouble gambling. In this game.

Not general copy/paste research on lootboxes.

Akisohida

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Maybe people should start taking responsibility for their actions.

They aren't "unhealthy" they aren't required. You don't have to have the items. If you feel like you can't help yourself and can't stop yourself from buying the items or crates then you should stop playing the game.

I do think they should just keep the crates, but make every item available at a gem rate. At least then you can extract gems from duplicate items or the massive stacks of potions and stuff and save up for what you want.

There are people with legitimate problems that mechanics like this are made to target.

Let me guess; you're one of those disgusting people that would look at me, with autism that prevents me from working because I just can't interact with people in the flesh, and say 'Just try harder to be normal. I can do it, so you can, too!'

Because you can't comprehend that people are different from you, and that YOU can just not spend money on an abusive, addicting mechanic means EVERYONE can!

Hell. I linked to research earlier stating that lootboxes TARGET THESE PEOPLE and yet there are still idiots in this post AFTER that post that claim 'No one's given proof that lootboxes target people!'.

I gave the proof, and everyone defending this practice ignored it to continue arguing their side.

I don't care what anyone's opinion is. Opinions are rarely right or wrong; they are opinions.

But the FACT is that lootboxes were made to target children & problem gamblers; people with low self-control, to milk every last cent.

This is a FACT, regardless of anyone's opinion on what THEY feel lootboxes are. This is why lootboxes are being pushed back against. And no one's opinion can change a fact.

Where’s you proof that ZoS’s lootboxes aim for your said targets.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0213194
'Previous research strongly suggested both the size and the direction of link between loot box use and problem gambling. This paper provides further support for this link. These results suggest either that loot boxes act as a gateway to problem gambling, or that individuals with gambling problems are drawn to spend more on loot boxes. In either case, we believe that these results suggest there is good reason to regulate loot boxes.'

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.190049#d3e2905
'Adolescent problem gamblers spent more than five times as much money on loot boxes than those who did not have a problem. Problem gambling and loot box spending were linked by an association of magnitude η2 = 0.120: more than twice as strong as the relationship seen recently in a similarly recruited adult population.
There is one clear conclusion that can be drawn from these results: when video game companies allow adolescents to buy loot boxes, they are potentially exposing them to negative consequences. It may be the case that loot box spending in adolescents causes problem gambling. It may be the case that loot boxes allow games companies to monetize problem gambling in these vulnerable populations for 11-digit annual profits. We believe that both relationships may potentially lead to serious adverse consequences for younger gamers.'

Should I continue?

And don't you dare try to claim ZoS's crates are not lootboxes;
You buy them with real money (Yes, you use fake money but you buy that fake money with real money. It's a BS tactic to trick people by saying 'Well TECHNICALLY..')

You get a randomized chance to get bad, good, and great items.

You have a lesser chance of getting a 'payout' of good/great items.

You can get duplicates that give you an small amount of a currency.


These are all things lootboxes do in any other game that actually calls them lootboxes. ZoS's crates are lootboxes. And lootboxes target those with problems.

Have I given enough proof now?

I said where does it say that ZoS is directly trying to target people with trouble gambling. In this game.

Not general copy/paste research on lootboxes.

Jesus Christ.

ZoS is using lootboxes the SAME WAY as everyone else.
Those lootboxes are designed to target kids and gamblers.
This means ZoS is targeting kids and gamblers.

How is this hard for you to understand? Or do you just not want to admit it?

Lootboxes are designed to target kids & problem gamblers.
ZoS uses lootboxes.
Thus ZoS is targeting kids & problem gamblers.

Do I need to say it a third time? Just because ZoS is not explicitly mentioned does not mean they are not guilty of it. All you're arguing is sematics because you have no other counter-argument.

Coppes

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Maybe people should start taking responsibility for their actions.

They aren't "unhealthy" they aren't required. You don't have to have the items. If you feel like you can't help yourself and can't stop yourself from buying the items or crates then you should stop playing the game.

I do think they should just keep the crates, but make every item available at a gem rate. At least then you can extract gems from duplicate items or the massive stacks of potions and stuff and save up for what you want.

There are people with legitimate problems that mechanics like this are made to target.

Let me guess; you're one of those disgusting people that would look at me, with autism that prevents me from working because I just can't interact with people in the flesh, and say 'Just try harder to be normal. I can do it, so you can, too!'

Because you can't comprehend that people are different from you, and that YOU can just not spend money on an abusive, addicting mechanic means EVERYONE can!

Hell. I linked to research earlier stating that lootboxes TARGET THESE PEOPLE and yet there are still idiots in this post AFTER that post that claim 'No one's given proof that lootboxes target people!'.

I gave the proof, and everyone defending this practice ignored it to continue arguing their side.

I don't care what anyone's opinion is. Opinions are rarely right or wrong; they are opinions.

But the FACT is that lootboxes were made to target children & problem gamblers; people with low self-control, to milk every last cent.

This is a FACT, regardless of anyone's opinion on what THEY feel lootboxes are. This is why lootboxes are being pushed back against. And no one's opinion can change a fact.

Where’s you proof that ZoS’s lootboxes aim for your said targets.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0213194
'Previous research strongly suggested both the size and the direction of link between loot box use and problem gambling. This paper provides further support for this link. These results suggest either that loot boxes act as a gateway to problem gambling, or that individuals with gambling problems are drawn to spend more on loot boxes. In either case, we believe that these results suggest there is good reason to regulate loot boxes.'

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.190049#d3e2905
'Adolescent problem gamblers spent more than five times as much money on loot boxes than those who did not have a problem. Problem gambling and loot box spending were linked by an association of magnitude η2 = 0.120: more than twice as strong as the relationship seen recently in a similarly recruited adult population.
There is one clear conclusion that can be drawn from these results: when video game companies allow adolescents to buy loot boxes, they are potentially exposing them to negative consequences. It may be the case that loot box spending in adolescents causes problem gambling. It may be the case that loot boxes allow games companies to monetize problem gambling in these vulnerable populations for 11-digit annual profits. We believe that both relationships may potentially lead to serious adverse consequences for younger gamers.'

Should I continue?

And don't you dare try to claim ZoS's crates are not lootboxes;
You buy them with real money (Yes, you use fake money but you buy that fake money with real money. It's a BS tactic to trick people by saying 'Well TECHNICALLY..')

You get a randomized chance to get bad, good, and great items.

You have a lesser chance of getting a 'payout' of good/great items.

You can get duplicates that give you an small amount of a currency.


These are all things lootboxes do in any other game that actually calls them lootboxes. ZoS's crates are lootboxes. And lootboxes target those with problems.

Have I given enough proof now?

I said where does it say that ZoS is directly trying to target people with trouble gambling. In this game.

Not general copy/paste research on lootboxes.

Jesus Christ.

ZoS is using lootboxes the SAME WAY as everyone else.
Those lootboxes are designed to target kids and gamblers.
This means ZoS is targeting kids and gamblers.

How is this hard for you to understand? Or do you just not want to admit it?

Lootboxes are designed to target kids & problem gamblers.
ZoS uses lootboxes.
Thus ZoS is targeting kids & problem gamblers.

Do I need to say it a third time? Just because ZoS is not explicitly mentioned does not mean they are not guilty of it. All you're arguing is sematics because you have no other counter-argument.

I am how are they directly targeting them? Do they send the emails of false promises, are they gripping them in by spamming them with ads? Be specific.

You are offering anything but repeating the same thing over and over.

I played this game for years and only discovered Crown Crates like 2 years ago.

When does it stop? Let’s ban video games next because that can cause an addiction. Since people have died from video game addiction.

You would said before (or someone) in this thread that there were labels saying that people should take breaks in video games.

As well as on alcohol...

Then why don’t you do the same to Crown Crates?

Elsonso

Akisohida wrote: »

ZoS is using lootboxes the SAME WAY as everyone else.
Those lootboxes are designed to target kids and gamblers.
This means ZoS is targeting kids and gamblers.

How is this hard for you to understand? Or do you just not want to admit it?

Actually, as people run around talking about Loot Boxes, Bad, Bad, Bad, it would appear that not all loot boxes are the same. As much as I dislike them, I do expect that the ESO loot boxes will probably slide under most legislative bars.

Akisohida

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Maybe people should start taking responsibility for their actions.

They aren't "unhealthy" they aren't required. You don't have to have the items. If you feel like you can't help yourself and can't stop yourself from buying the items or crates then you should stop playing the game.

I do think they should just keep the crates, but make every item available at a gem rate. At least then you can extract gems from duplicate items or the massive stacks of potions and stuff and save up for what you want.

There are people with legitimate problems that mechanics like this are made to target.

Let me guess; you're one of those disgusting people that would look at me, with autism that prevents me from working because I just can't interact with people in the flesh, and say 'Just try harder to be normal. I can do it, so you can, too!'

Because you can't comprehend that people are different from you, and that YOU can just not spend money on an abusive, addicting mechanic means EVERYONE can!

Hell. I linked to research earlier stating that lootboxes TARGET THESE PEOPLE and yet there are still idiots in this post AFTER that post that claim 'No one's given proof that lootboxes target people!'.

I gave the proof, and everyone defending this practice ignored it to continue arguing their side.

I don't care what anyone's opinion is. Opinions are rarely right or wrong; they are opinions.

But the FACT is that lootboxes were made to target children & problem gamblers; people with low self-control, to milk every last cent.

This is a FACT, regardless of anyone's opinion on what THEY feel lootboxes are. This is why lootboxes are being pushed back against. And no one's opinion can change a fact.

Where’s you proof that ZoS’s lootboxes aim for your said targets.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0213194
'Previous research strongly suggested both the size and the direction of link between loot box use and problem gambling. This paper provides further support for this link. These results suggest either that loot boxes act as a gateway to problem gambling, or that individuals with gambling problems are drawn to spend more on loot boxes. In either case, we believe that these results suggest there is good reason to regulate loot boxes.'

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.190049#d3e2905
'Adolescent problem gamblers spent more than five times as much money on loot boxes than those who did not have a problem. Problem gambling and loot box spending were linked by an association of magnitude η2 = 0.120: more than twice as strong as the relationship seen recently in a similarly recruited adult population.
There is one clear conclusion that can be drawn from these results: when video game companies allow adolescents to buy loot boxes, they are potentially exposing them to negative consequences. It may be the case that loot box spending in adolescents causes problem gambling. It may be the case that loot boxes allow games companies to monetize problem gambling in these vulnerable populations for 11-digit annual profits. We believe that both relationships may potentially lead to serious adverse consequences for younger gamers.'

Should I continue?

And don't you dare try to claim ZoS's crates are not lootboxes;
You buy them with real money (Yes, you use fake money but you buy that fake money with real money. It's a BS tactic to trick people by saying 'Well TECHNICALLY..')

You get a randomized chance to get bad, good, and great items.

You have a lesser chance of getting a 'payout' of good/great items.

You can get duplicates that give you an small amount of a currency.


These are all things lootboxes do in any other game that actually calls them lootboxes. ZoS's crates are lootboxes. And lootboxes target those with problems.

Have I given enough proof now?

I said where does it say that ZoS is directly trying to target people with trouble gambling. In this game.

Not general copy/paste research on lootboxes.

Jesus Christ.

ZoS is using lootboxes the SAME WAY as everyone else.
Those lootboxes are designed to target kids and gamblers.
This means ZoS is targeting kids and gamblers.

How is this hard for you to understand? Or do you just not want to admit it?

Lootboxes are designed to target kids & problem gamblers.
ZoS uses lootboxes.
Thus ZoS is targeting kids & problem gamblers.

Do I need to say it a third time? Just because ZoS is not explicitly mentioned does not mean they are not guilty of it. All you're arguing is sematics because you have no other counter-argument.

I am how are they directly targeting them? Do they send the emails of false promises, are they gripping them in by spamming them with ads? Be specific.

You are offering anything but repeating the same thing over and over.

I played this game for years and only discovered Crown Crates like 2 years ago.

When does it stop? Let’s ban video games next because that can cause an addiction. Since people have died from video game addiction.

You would said before (or someone) in this thread that there were labels saying that people should take breaks in video games.

As well as on alcohol...

Then why don’t you do the same to Crown Crates?

If you want to know how, read papers on the psychology of lootcrates. Everything about them is meant to encourage spending, from the better items being rare so you have to spend more, to the lil cat guy reminding you to buy more crates, to the cat guy cheering when you get a bonus card or rare item (kind of how rarer items in other lootcrates glow golden or have a fanfare meant to make you feel good about 'winning' a rare item. This is also why slot machines flash lights and play music when you win; so you KEEP SPENDING.)

It's all there. You're deciding to ignore it because..I don't know why. But the hard fact is that lootcrates and ZoS's lootcrates, target people who self-control issues.

Sorry, but it's all there. Accept it or don't; arguing piddly little sematics won't change the hard facts.

DMuehlhausen

Akisohida wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Maybe people should start taking responsibility for their actions.

They aren't "unhealthy" they aren't required. You don't have to have the items. If you feel like you can't help yourself and can't stop yourself from buying the items or crates then you should stop playing the game.

I do think they should just keep the crates, but make every item available at a gem rate. At least then you can extract gems from duplicate items or the massive stacks of potions and stuff and save up for what you want.

There are people with legitimate problems that mechanics like this are made to target.

Let me guess; you're one of those disgusting people that would look at me, with autism that prevents me from working because I just can't interact with people in the flesh, and say 'Just try harder to be normal. I can do it, so you can, too!'

Because you can't comprehend that people are different from you, and that YOU can just not spend money on an abusive, addicting mechanic means EVERYONE can!

Hell. I linked to research earlier stating that lootboxes TARGET THESE PEOPLE and yet there are still idiots in this post AFTER that post that claim 'No one's given proof that lootboxes target people!'.

I gave the proof, and everyone defending this practice ignored it to continue arguing their side.

I don't care what anyone's opinion is. Opinions are rarely right or wrong; they are opinions.

But the FACT is that lootboxes were made to target children & problem gamblers; people with low self-control, to milk every last cent.

This is a FACT, regardless of anyone's opinion on what THEY feel lootboxes are. This is why lootboxes are being pushed back against. And no one's opinion can change a fact.

They still make the decision to log in and play a game. That is 100% on them. ZoS isn't holding a gun to their head saying you have to play our game. There are other games out there that don't have loot crates. They can play them.

Before you assume anything about me and how I feel about people with "disabilities" my son is 7 both autistic and ADHD. I get some people have issues, he struggles to interact with others. You know what they I'll never let him fall back and be oh I have these issues so I just can't control myself or I can't interact with humans in the flesh. No he's going to have to learn how to do these things at least on a entry level basis cause using a disability isn't a reason to stop trying.

TigressCreed

I get what point you’re trying to get across but that’s like banning casinos, smoking and alcohol. If people can’t control themselves why should others be punished? I love crown crates and buy a couple whenever a new season rolls around and I see something nice. It IS a business and to stay profitable they have to have micro transactions. People whine because they don’t get everything they want (ex a specific mount or apex reward) that’s life. I want Jason Momoa but alas the RNG dice was thrown. Crown crates aren’t preventing you from still enjoying the game. I don’t think they should be illegal when there’s other more important stuff that should be on the police radar

Coppes

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Maybe people should start taking responsibility for their actions.

They aren't "unhealthy" they aren't required. You don't have to have the items. If you feel like you can't help yourself and can't stop yourself from buying the items or crates then you should stop playing the game.

I do think they should just keep the crates, but make every item available at a gem rate. At least then you can extract gems from duplicate items or the massive stacks of potions and stuff and save up for what you want.

There are people with legitimate problems that mechanics like this are made to target.

Let me guess; you're one of those disgusting people that would look at me, with autism that prevents me from working because I just can't interact with people in the flesh, and say 'Just try harder to be normal. I can do it, so you can, too!'

Because you can't comprehend that people are different from you, and that YOU can just not spend money on an abusive, addicting mechanic means EVERYONE can!

Hell. I linked to research earlier stating that lootboxes TARGET THESE PEOPLE and yet there are still idiots in this post AFTER that post that claim 'No one's given proof that lootboxes target people!'.

I gave the proof, and everyone defending this practice ignored it to continue arguing their side.

I don't care what anyone's opinion is. Opinions are rarely right or wrong; they are opinions.

But the FACT is that lootboxes were made to target children & problem gamblers; people with low self-control, to milk every last cent.

This is a FACT, regardless of anyone's opinion on what THEY feel lootboxes are. This is why lootboxes are being pushed back against. And no one's opinion can change a fact.

Where’s you proof that ZoS’s lootboxes aim for your said targets.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0213194
'Previous research strongly suggested both the size and the direction of link between loot box use and problem gambling. This paper provides further support for this link. These results suggest either that loot boxes act as a gateway to problem gambling, or that individuals with gambling problems are drawn to spend more on loot boxes. In either case, we believe that these results suggest there is good reason to regulate loot boxes.'

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.190049#d3e2905
'Adolescent problem gamblers spent more than five times as much money on loot boxes than those who did not have a problem. Problem gambling and loot box spending were linked by an association of magnitude η2 = 0.120: more than twice as strong as the relationship seen recently in a similarly recruited adult population.
There is one clear conclusion that can be drawn from these results: when video game companies allow adolescents to buy loot boxes, they are potentially exposing them to negative consequences. It may be the case that loot box spending in adolescents causes problem gambling. It may be the case that loot boxes allow games companies to monetize problem gambling in these vulnerable populations for 11-digit annual profits. We believe that both relationships may potentially lead to serious adverse consequences for younger gamers.'

Should I continue?

And don't you dare try to claim ZoS's crates are not lootboxes;
You buy them with real money (Yes, you use fake money but you buy that fake money with real money. It's a BS tactic to trick people by saying 'Well TECHNICALLY..')

You get a randomized chance to get bad, good, and great items.

You have a lesser chance of getting a 'payout' of good/great items.

You can get duplicates that give you an small amount of a currency.


These are all things lootboxes do in any other game that actually calls them lootboxes. ZoS's crates are lootboxes. And lootboxes target those with problems.

Have I given enough proof now?

I said where does it say that ZoS is directly trying to target people with trouble gambling. In this game.

Not general copy/paste research on lootboxes.

Jesus Christ.

ZoS is using lootboxes the SAME WAY as everyone else.
Those lootboxes are designed to target kids and gamblers.
This means ZoS is targeting kids and gamblers.

How is this hard for you to understand? Or do you just not want to admit it?

Lootboxes are designed to target kids & problem gamblers.
ZoS uses lootboxes.
Thus ZoS is targeting kids & problem gamblers.

Do I need to say it a third time? Just because ZoS is not explicitly mentioned does not mean they are not guilty of it. All you're arguing is sematics because you have no other counter-argument.

I am how are they directly targeting them? Do they send the emails of false promises, are they gripping them in by spamming them with ads? Be specific.

You are offering anything but repeating the same thing over and over.

I played this game for years and only discovered Crown Crates like 2 years ago.

When does it stop? Let’s ban video games next because that can cause an addiction. Since people have died from video game addiction.

You would said before (or someone) in this thread that there were labels saying that people should take breaks in video games.

As well as on alcohol...

Then why don’t you do the same to Crown Crates?

If you want to know how, read papers on the psychology of lootcrates. Everything about them is meant to encourage spending, from the better items being rare so you have to spend more, to the lil cat guy reminding you to buy more crates, to the cat guy cheering when you get a bonus card or rare item (kind of how rarer items in other lootcrates glow golden or have a fanfare meant to make you feel good about 'winning' a rare item. This is also why slot machines flash lights and play music when you win; so you KEEP SPENDING.)

It's all there. You're deciding to ignore it because..I don't know why. But the hard fact is that lootcrates and ZoS's lootcrates, target people who self-control issues.

Sorry, but it's all there. Accept it or don't; arguing piddly little sematics won't change the hard facts.

Last I checked, the Crown Crafe screen doesn’t have any flashing lights.

You didn’t answer the other part of my post.
What about phones, what about video games, what about alcohol.

Just accept that you want ZoS to lose Croen Crates so that you can get those Radiant Apex mounts without trying.

Some people enjoy Crown Crates, as people have said in this thread. Those people also know to control themselves.

Why should they be punished with the rest of the classroom?

What’s your alternative to the Crown Crate system that ZoS can profit of and pay their employees?

Bradyfjord

Hallothiel wrote: »

And what is more capitalist than wanting to just buy the damn item, without all the rudiculous unecessary kerfuffle with stupid crates?

The most capitalist idea in the world is opening up a shop and competing. If you think you can do it better, just go into business and beat them at their own game.

Kelces

I am hopeful this won't be an issue anymore, since ZoS started selling "you" as the crown crate to third parties. Maybe the system will be obsolete, when revenues have reached Mr. Zuckerberg level.

Bradyfjord

Akisohida wrote: »

You get a randomized chance to get bad, good, and great items.

You have a lesser chance of getting a 'payout' of good/great items.

You can get duplicates that give you an small amount of a currency.


These are all things lootboxes do in any other game that actually calls them lootboxes. ZoS's crates are lootboxes. And lootboxes target those with problems.

Have I given enough proof now?

Actually, it's people with problems looking for a fix. They seek out things that hurt them, that's why it's called addiction.

The people making the loot boxes are targeting one specific identifier... people that play video games. That's it. ZOS further put an age restriction on their game, so their specifically targeting gamers 18+.

So, you have not given enough proof. Proof is evidence that conclusively shows your point of view is absolute truth. You failed yet again.

I think you mean well, but you need to understand that people have to learn to take care of themselves. That's why it would be better for you to advocate for education programs, better labeling on packaging, improving school systems and other such means to achieve your goal of helping addicts with their problems.

If you really care for the addicts that is. If you don't, but just want to 'bully pulpit' go right ahead and talk in your echo chamber.

Akisohida

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Maybe people should start taking responsibility for their actions.

They aren't "unhealthy" they aren't required. You don't have to have the items. If you feel like you can't help yourself and can't stop yourself from buying the items or crates then you should stop playing the game.

I do think they should just keep the crates, but make every item available at a gem rate. At least then you can extract gems from duplicate items or the massive stacks of potions and stuff and save up for what you want.

There are people with legitimate problems that mechanics like this are made to target.

Let me guess; you're one of those disgusting people that would look at me, with autism that prevents me from working because I just can't interact with people in the flesh, and say 'Just try harder to be normal. I can do it, so you can, too!'

Because you can't comprehend that people are different from you, and that YOU can just not spend money on an abusive, addicting mechanic means EVERYONE can!

Hell. I linked to research earlier stating that lootboxes TARGET THESE PEOPLE and yet there are still idiots in this post AFTER that post that claim 'No one's given proof that lootboxes target people!'.

I gave the proof, and everyone defending this practice ignored it to continue arguing their side.

I don't care what anyone's opinion is. Opinions are rarely right or wrong; they are opinions.

But the FACT is that lootboxes were made to target children & problem gamblers; people with low self-control, to milk every last cent.

This is a FACT, regardless of anyone's opinion on what THEY feel lootboxes are. This is why lootboxes are being pushed back against. And no one's opinion can change a fact.

They still make the decision to log in and play a game. That is 100% on them. ZoS isn't holding a gun to their head saying you have to play our game. There are other games out there that don't have loot crates. They can play them.

Before you assume anything about me and how I feel about people with "disabilities" my son is 7 both autistic and ADHD. I get some people have issues, he struggles to interact with others. You know what they I'll never let him fall back and be oh I have these issues so I just can't control myself or I can't interact with humans in the flesh. No he's going to have to learn how to do these things at least on a entry level basis cause using a disability isn't a reason to stop trying.

Then I apologize.

I've been at the extreme end of 'You can do it if you try harder', though. Had 6 teeth removed, due to someone who promised to help me learn how to better myself, and he ended up believing I was just being lazy.
He could not understand how I could not retain information on how to build a deck, or work on my car, or how to read a measuring tape at a glance, because HE could do it, and clearly my disability was not visibly hampering me, so it must just be lazyness.

When you hit that level of enabler, you get a hair trigger, and I apologize.

Akisohida

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

You get a randomized chance to get bad, good, and great items.

You have a lesser chance of getting a 'payout' of good/great items.

You can get duplicates that give you an small amount of a currency.


These are all things lootboxes do in any other game that actually calls them lootboxes. ZoS's crates are lootboxes. And lootboxes target those with problems.

Have I given enough proof now?

Actually, it's people with problems looking for a fix. They seek out things that hurt them, that's why it's called addiction.

The people making the loot boxes are targeting one specific identifier... people that play video games. That's it. ZOS further put an age restriction on their game, so their specifically targeting gamers 18+.

So, you have not given enough proof. Proof is evidence that conclusively shows your point of view is absolute truth. You failed yet again.

I think you mean well, but you need to understand that people have to learn to take care of themselves. That's why it would be better for you to advocate for education programs, better labeling on packaging, improving school systems and other such means to achieve your goal of helping addicts with their problems.

If you really care for the addicts that is. If you don't, but just want to 'bully pulpit' go right ahead and talk in your echo chamber.

You're right..partially.

People need to take care of themselves, but we also need to ensure companies can't take advantage of people with problems in the first place.

It's not the problem gambler's fault that a slot machine or lootbox mechanic was scientifically designed to rope them in.
THAT is the companies fault for developing it, or even just using it, in the first place.

Do you blame the drug user for being hooked on drugs? Or do you blame the man that supplied the drugs and try to help the user by removing (or in the lootbox's case putting limitations on) the dealer making them addicted?

Contaminate

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Maybe people should start taking responsibility for their actions.

They aren't "unhealthy" they aren't required. You don't have to have the items. If you feel like you can't help yourself and can't stop yourself from buying the items or crates then you should stop playing the game.

I do think they should just keep the crates, but make every item available at a gem rate. At least then you can extract gems from duplicate items or the massive stacks of potions and stuff and save up for what you want.

There are people with legitimate problems that mechanics like this are made to target.

Let me guess; you're one of those disgusting people that would look at me, with autism that prevents me from working because I just can't interact with people in the flesh, and say 'Just try harder to be normal. I can do it, so you can, too!'

Because you can't comprehend that people are different from you, and that YOU can just not spend money on an abusive, addicting mechanic means EVERYONE can!

Hell. I linked to research earlier stating that lootboxes TARGET THESE PEOPLE and yet there are still idiots in this post AFTER that post that claim 'No one's given proof that lootboxes target people!'.

I gave the proof, and everyone defending this practice ignored it to continue arguing their side.

I don't care what anyone's opinion is. Opinions are rarely right or wrong; they are opinions.

But the FACT is that lootboxes were made to target children & problem gamblers; people with low self-control, to milk every last cent.

This is a FACT, regardless of anyone's opinion on what THEY feel lootboxes are. This is why lootboxes are being pushed back against. And no one's opinion can change a fact.

Where’s you proof that ZoS’s lootboxes aim for your said targets.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0213194
'Previous research strongly suggested both the size and the direction of link between loot box use and problem gambling. This paper provides further support for this link. These results suggest either that loot boxes act as a gateway to problem gambling, or that individuals with gambling problems are drawn to spend more on loot boxes. In either case, we believe that these results suggest there is good reason to regulate loot boxes.'

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.190049#d3e2905
'Adolescent problem gamblers spent more than five times as much money on loot boxes than those who did not have a problem. Problem gambling and loot box spending were linked by an association of magnitude η2 = 0.120: more than twice as strong as the relationship seen recently in a similarly recruited adult population.
There is one clear conclusion that can be drawn from these results: when video game companies allow adolescents to buy loot boxes, they are potentially exposing them to negative consequences. It may be the case that loot box spending in adolescents causes problem gambling. It may be the case that loot boxes allow games companies to monetize problem gambling in these vulnerable populations for 11-digit annual profits. We believe that both relationships may potentially lead to serious adverse consequences for younger gamers.'

Should I continue?

And don't you dare try to claim ZoS's crates are not lootboxes;
You buy them with real money (Yes, you use fake money but you buy that fake money with real money. It's a BS tactic to trick people by saying 'Well TECHNICALLY..')

You get a randomized chance to get bad, good, and great items.

You have a lesser chance of getting a 'payout' of good/great items.

You can get duplicates that give you an small amount of a currency.


These are all things lootboxes do in any other game that actually calls them lootboxes. ZoS's crates are lootboxes. And lootboxes target those with problems.

Have I given enough proof now?

I said where does it say that ZoS is directly trying to target people with trouble gambling. In this game.

Not general copy/paste research on lootboxes.

Jesus Christ.

ZoS is using lootboxes the SAME WAY as everyone else.
Those lootboxes are designed to target kids and gamblers.
This means ZoS is targeting kids and gamblers.

How is this hard for you to understand? Or do you just not want to admit it?

Lootboxes are designed to target kids & problem gamblers.
ZoS uses lootboxes.
Thus ZoS is targeting kids & problem gamblers.

Do I need to say it a third time? Just because ZoS is not explicitly mentioned does not mean they are not guilty of it. All you're arguing is sematics because you have no other counter-argument.

I am how are they directly targeting them? Do they send the emails of false promises, are they gripping them in by spamming them with ads? Be specific.

You are offering anything but repeating the same thing over and over.

I played this game for years and only discovered Crown Crates like 2 years ago.

When does it stop? Let’s ban video games next because that can cause an addiction. Since people have died from video game addiction.

You would said before (or someone) in this thread that there were labels saying that people should take breaks in video games.

As well as on alcohol...

Then why don’t you do the same to Crown Crates?

If you want to know how, read papers on the psychology of lootcrates. Everything about them is meant to encourage spending, from the better items being rare so you have to spend more, to the lil cat guy reminding you to buy more crates, to the cat guy cheering when you get a bonus card or rare item (kind of how rarer items in other lootcrates glow golden or have a fanfare meant to make you feel good about 'winning' a rare item. This is also why slot machines flash lights and play music when you win; so you KEEP SPENDING.)

It's all there. You're deciding to ignore it because..I don't know why. But the hard fact is that lootcrates and ZoS's lootcrates, target people who self-control issues.

Sorry, but it's all there. Accept it or don't; arguing piddly little sematics won't change the hard facts.

Last I checked, the Crown Crafe screen doesn’t have any flashing lights.

You didn’t answer the other part of my post.
What about phones, what about video games, what about alcohol.

Just accept that you want ZoS to lose Croen Crates so that you can get those Radiant Apex mounts without trying.

There are some serious mental disconnects if you think offering something for direct sale is even remotely similar to handing it out for nothing.

You have no argument. You get answers to your questions then ask it again as if it hasn’t already been answered.

There are sparkles and pretty behind the slot machine. Ffs they were even described to you. Sparkly flairs behind the “rare” cards, Pacrooti cheering you on and encouraging you to buy more crates when you run out, his exciting “Oh look! A bonus card!” to shoot off that dopamine. These are all tactics to get people addicted.

On top of that, yes we are actually blasted with ads, why do you think someone made an addon to suppress it showing?

Every time you open the crown store, that little exclamation mark showing “NEW THING HERE” tries to pull you to look at crates. So does the Featured page if you open the store. So do the ads in the launcher reminding you all about the new crate season. So does the Crown store showcase to let you know there will be even more crates exclusives.

I’ve come to realize you’re one of the sort who’s already sunk far too much money into the scam, and so feel desperately like you have to maintain it to feel like your wasted money was worth it, but it was wasted, and it certainly wasn’t worth it.

Crown Crates, just as all lootboxes, are player-hostile marketing gimmicks aimed at children, teenagers, and adults susceptible to gambling problems. They inspire gambling problems where none previously existed and enable already problematic gambling issues.

Casinos are banned in many places because they don’t do any good. I’ve personally seen someone waste a hundred dollars in the span of five minutes on scratch offs and won nothing. There is no good that comes from inserting gambling into products that companies know for a fact attract young audiences, because they know full well it’s harmful, but will do it anyway for a quick easy buck because a lack of laws and people like you don’t stop them.

Coppes

Akisohida wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

You get a randomized chance to get bad, good, and great items.

You have a lesser chance of getting a 'payout' of good/great items.

You can get duplicates that give you an small amount of a currency.


These are all things lootboxes do in any other game that actually calls them lootboxes. ZoS's crates are lootboxes. And lootboxes target those with problems.

Have I given enough proof now?

Actually, it's people with problems looking for a fix. They seek out things that hurt them, that's why it's called addiction.

The people making the loot boxes are targeting one specific identifier... people that play video games. That's it. ZOS further put an age restriction on their game, so their specifically targeting gamers 18+.

So, you have not given enough proof. Proof is evidence that conclusively shows your point of view is absolute truth. You failed yet again.

I think you mean well, but you need to understand that people have to learn to take care of themselves. That's why it would be better for you to advocate for education programs, better labeling on packaging, improving school systems and other such means to achieve your goal of helping addicts with their problems.

If you really care for the addicts that is. If you don't, but just want to 'bully pulpit' go right ahead and talk in your echo chamber.

You're right..partially.

People need to take care of themselves, but we also need to ensure companies can't take advantage of people with problems in the first place.

It's not the problem gambler's fault that a slot machine or lootbox mechanic was scientifically designed to rope them in.
THAT is the companies fault for developing it, or even just using it, in the first place.

Do you blame the drug user for being hooked on drugs? Or do you blame the man that supplied the drugs and try to help the user by removing (or in the lootbox's case putting limitations on) the dealer making them addicted?

In the end it was ultimately you’re fault for getting on drugs. Especially since drug awareness has been extremely high since the 2000s.

Drug dealers are the enablers.

Every day since you were children people told you to take responsibility for your actions.

But, I guess that doesn’t matter in this day and age when you can just blame people for your problems.

darthgummibear_ESO

Kahnak wrote: »

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

RGD wrote: »

latest being the UK, the NHS saying they're unhealthy, and can lead to gambling addictions and such.

Alcohol is also unhealthy, but pubs are everywhere and unless your pregnant, under age, or have a medical issue that prevents you from drinking, you are looked at suspiciously for not consuming alcohol.

That particular article got me thinking, is it time to get rid of Crown Crates in favour of some less egregious and predatory systems for cool stuff?

Its not predatory. People need to learn to take responsibility for themselves and stop expecting a nanny state to coddle and care for them and shield them from things that might harm them.

Now, I predict that there'll be some people who'll say things like "lol, crown crates are optional, so if you don't like 'em, don't buy 'em!" - obviously that's the case, but for a lot of people, cosmetics are a large part of video games, like, a huge part, and crown crates hold some of the nicest cosmetics in the game. It's CRYSTAL CLEAR that 99% of the Crown Store item developers time is spent on upcoming content for Crown Crates. This sucks because the Crown Crate (loot box) system is predatory and exploitative of players who value cosmetics in games by stuffing the cool stuff behind a steep price and unbelievable RNG chances. Now, to those who say they're optional, yes they are, but you can agree that ZOS is fully capable of introducing the same cosmetics in a more consumer-friendly and generally less disgusting way.

So crown crates are predatory because they have items in them some people desire? Really? Wow.


I find crown crates to be very consumer friendly. i even grab a few every once in a great while. I also go to the casino every once in a while and never spend more than i want too and never have gamblers remorse. People who have problems with situations in which something is a gamble should stay away from those situations. However, the other 97% of the population( Here in the US, 3% of the population has a gambling problem.) should not have to suffer because 3% of the population is incapable of self control.

I think it is absolutely 100% cheeky for a small percentage of the population to expect a large percent of the population to cater to them because they lack self control and good judgement. I have to wonder if the same people play the lottery and then expect the "state" to give them a reward for playing?

There are probably quite a few ways to still monetize the stuff from crown crates successfully, but not be lame about the way it's done. First being obvious, just put them on the crown store as a direct purchase. Second, and probably will have people rolling their eyes at the suggestion of it, but a "Battle Pass" type system could be introduced. There's more than enough content placed in crown crates to fill a 100-tier pass with free and premium tiers. The challenges could be an easy thing, too; things like do certain dungeons, repeatable quests, crafting writs, kill certain amounts or types of enemies, dolmens, events, world bosses, the possibilities are quite endless. This way the items will be monetizable via the premium pass and buying tiers, and it'll incentivize certain activities for the players to return to. There's a few basic ways to replace Crown Crates that I, and I imagine plenty of players would be happy to engage in.

They have a system that works, it is crown crates. If they have to go to a system in which they have to have set prices for items, they will either stop selling those items or, more likely, have to sell far more desirable items like actual pay 2 win items.

The idea behind crown crates or any type of "gambling" is that you only spend what you can afford to lose. If you ( general)are spending more than you can afford to lose trying to win some pixels, that is not our( the communities) problem. Why should we be punished for your(general) irresponsibility and inability to make adult decisions?

I doubt anyone from ZOS will read this, let alone crown crates ever disappearing, the best chance of that happening would be for as many people as possible to stop buying them, or many countries outlawing loot box-type mechanics in video games. It's something I hope will happen one day, because I like the stuff in the crates, and I'm happy to purchase them and support the game, but I will not buy the CHANCE to get something.

And suddenly the motive is made clear. " I want X but i dont like the price of X, so i want the entire system to be changed so i can acquire X on my terms" That is not the way the world works.

And you are right crown crates will probably not ever go away. In the US gambling is becoming legal in far more places, not the other way around. Every bar in my state has legal gambling machines in it, something it didnt have 10 years ago. The most you are going to get here in the states is that ZOS is forced to disclose odds of winning each prize, which is something they should have to do.

People who actually think like this are just as much to blame as the actual perpetrators.

What is it like generalizing about the morality of people you don't agree with and then proceeding to add nothing of value to the conversation?

You add nothing of value to society by defending a business practice which is blatantly predatory. You are quite literally part of the problem.

Agenericname

Akisohida wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

You get a randomized chance to get bad, good, and great items.

You have a lesser chance of getting a 'payout' of good/great items.

You can get duplicates that give you an small amount of a currency.


These are all things lootboxes do in any other game that actually calls them lootboxes. ZoS's crates are lootboxes. And lootboxes target those with problems.

Have I given enough proof now?

Actually, it's people with problems looking for a fix. They seek out things that hurt them, that's why it's called addiction.

The people making the loot boxes are targeting one specific identifier... people that play video games. That's it. ZOS further put an age restriction on their game, so their specifically targeting gamers 18+.

So, you have not given enough proof. Proof is evidence that conclusively shows your point of view is absolute truth. You failed yet again.

I think you mean well, but you need to understand that people have to learn to take care of themselves. That's why it would be better for you to advocate for education programs, better labeling on packaging, improving school systems and other such means to achieve your goal of helping addicts with their problems.

If you really care for the addicts that is. If you don't, but just want to 'bully pulpit' go right ahead and talk in your echo chamber.

You're right..partially.

People need to take care of themselves, but we also need to ensure companies can't take advantage of people with problems in the first place.

It's not the problem gambler's fault that a slot machine or lootbox mechanic was scientifically designed to rope them in.
THAT is the companies fault for developing it, or even just using it, in the first place.

Do you blame the drug user for being hooked on drugs? Or do you blame the man that supplied the drugs and try to help the user by removing (or in the lootbox's case putting limitations on) the dealer making them addicted?

Blaming the drug dealer doesn't fix the problem. Prohibition of any sort has proven that numerous times throughout history. Until the person who shoulders the addiction admits there is an issue and seeks help, in whatever form exist, the problem will persist.

If this were the case here and people really were championing for that small percentage of the population effected by this, helping that person(s) deal with their addiction would do far more in the long run than removing the trigger as the sole method of treatment.

It is partially my fault if I have an addiction and I fall prey to this mechanic. Gambling addictions aren't new. They don't go back as far as other serious addictions, but they're are known. I am aware, as would be most adults, that the risk exists. Even without the desire to absolve myself of any responsibility most would do well to scrutinize this out of their own best interest. Having personally known people who have serious gambling addictions they can be devastational.

In many cases gambling establishments publish their odds. Lotteries, sweepstakes, even McDonalds when they had their monopoly game published the information. It's common in states that have casinos to offer counseling and advertise it. If anything I would put on ZOS, they should publish that information. To my knowledge they do not, but I will freely admit that I have so little desire for those crates or anything inside that I could miss it if they did, however, asking for loot crates to be removed in the name of folks who suffer from this appears at times to be disingenuous.

Kahnak

Contaminate wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Maybe people should start taking responsibility for their actions.

They aren't "unhealthy" they aren't required. You don't have to have the items. If you feel like you can't help yourself and can't stop yourself from buying the items or crates then you should stop playing the game.

I do think they should just keep the crates, but make every item available at a gem rate. At least then you can extract gems from duplicate items or the massive stacks of potions and stuff and save up for what you want.

There are people with legitimate problems that mechanics like this are made to target.

Let me guess; you're one of those disgusting people that would look at me, with autism that prevents me from working because I just can't interact with people in the flesh, and say 'Just try harder to be normal. I can do it, so you can, too!'

Because you can't comprehend that people are different from you, and that YOU can just not spend money on an abusive, addicting mechanic means EVERYONE can!

Hell. I linked to research earlier stating that lootboxes TARGET THESE PEOPLE and yet there are still idiots in this post AFTER that post that claim 'No one's given proof that lootboxes target people!'.

I gave the proof, and everyone defending this practice ignored it to continue arguing their side.

I don't care what anyone's opinion is. Opinions are rarely right or wrong; they are opinions.

But the FACT is that lootboxes were made to target children & problem gamblers; people with low self-control, to milk every last cent.

This is a FACT, regardless of anyone's opinion on what THEY feel lootboxes are. This is why lootboxes are being pushed back against. And no one's opinion can change a fact.

Where’s you proof that ZoS’s lootboxes aim for your said targets.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0213194
'Previous research strongly suggested both the size and the direction of link between loot box use and problem gambling. This paper provides further support for this link. These results suggest either that loot boxes act as a gateway to problem gambling, or that individuals with gambling problems are drawn to spend more on loot boxes. In either case, we believe that these results suggest there is good reason to regulate loot boxes.'

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.190049#d3e2905
'Adolescent problem gamblers spent more than five times as much money on loot boxes than those who did not have a problem. Problem gambling and loot box spending were linked by an association of magnitude η2 = 0.120: more than twice as strong as the relationship seen recently in a similarly recruited adult population.
There is one clear conclusion that can be drawn from these results: when video game companies allow adolescents to buy loot boxes, they are potentially exposing them to negative consequences. It may be the case that loot box spending in adolescents causes problem gambling. It may be the case that loot boxes allow games companies to monetize problem gambling in these vulnerable populations for 11-digit annual profits. We believe that both relationships may potentially lead to serious adverse consequences for younger gamers.'

Should I continue?

And don't you dare try to claim ZoS's crates are not lootboxes;
You buy them with real money (Yes, you use fake money but you buy that fake money with real money. It's a BS tactic to trick people by saying 'Well TECHNICALLY..')

You get a randomized chance to get bad, good, and great items.

You have a lesser chance of getting a 'payout' of good/great items.

You can get duplicates that give you an small amount of a currency.


These are all things lootboxes do in any other game that actually calls them lootboxes. ZoS's crates are lootboxes. And lootboxes target those with problems.

Have I given enough proof now?

I said where does it say that ZoS is directly trying to target people with trouble gambling. In this game.

Not general copy/paste research on lootboxes.

Jesus Christ.

ZoS is using lootboxes the SAME WAY as everyone else.
Those lootboxes are designed to target kids and gamblers.
This means ZoS is targeting kids and gamblers.

How is this hard for you to understand? Or do you just not want to admit it?

Lootboxes are designed to target kids & problem gamblers.
ZoS uses lootboxes.
Thus ZoS is targeting kids & problem gamblers.

Do I need to say it a third time? Just because ZoS is not explicitly mentioned does not mean they are not guilty of it. All you're arguing is sematics because you have no other counter-argument.

I am how are they directly targeting them? Do they send the emails of false promises, are they gripping them in by spamming them with ads? Be specific.

You are offering anything but repeating the same thing over and over.

I played this game for years and only discovered Crown Crates like 2 years ago.

When does it stop? Let’s ban video games next because that can cause an addiction. Since people have died from video game addiction.

You would said before (or someone) in this thread that there were labels saying that people should take breaks in video games.

As well as on alcohol...

Then why don’t you do the same to Crown Crates?

If you want to know how, read papers on the psychology of lootcrates. Everything about them is meant to encourage spending, from the better items being rare so you have to spend more, to the lil cat guy reminding you to buy more crates, to the cat guy cheering when you get a bonus card or rare item (kind of how rarer items in other lootcrates glow golden or have a fanfare meant to make you feel good about 'winning' a rare item. This is also why slot machines flash lights and play music when you win; so you KEEP SPENDING.)

It's all there. You're deciding to ignore it because..I don't know why. But the hard fact is that lootcrates and ZoS's lootcrates, target people who self-control issues.

Sorry, but it's all there. Accept it or don't; arguing piddly little sematics won't change the hard facts.

Last I checked, the Crown Crafe screen doesn’t have any flashing lights.

You didn’t answer the other part of my post.
What about phones, what about video games, what about alcohol.

Just accept that you want ZoS to lose Croen Crates so that you can get those Radiant Apex mounts without trying.

There are some serious mental disconnects if you think offering something for direct sale is even remotely similar to handing it out for nothing.

You have no argument. You get answers to your questions then ask it again as if it hasn’t already been answered.

There are sparkles and pretty behind the slot machine. Ffs they were even described to you. Sparkly flairs behind the “rare” cards, Pacrooti cheering you on and encouraging you to buy more crates when you run out, his exciting “Oh look! A bonus card!” to shoot off that dopamine. These are all tactics to get people addicted.

On top of that, yes we are actually blasted with ads, why do you think someone made an addon to suppress it showing?

Every time you open the crown store, that little exclamation mark showing “NEW THING HERE” tries to pull you to look at crates. So does the Featured page if you open the store. So do the ads in the launcher reminding you all about the new crate season. So does the Crown store showcase to let you know there will be even more crates exclusives.

I’ve come to realize you’re one of the sort who’s already sunk far too much money into the scam, and so feel desperately like you have to maintain it to feel like your wasted money was worth it, but it was wasted, and it certainly wasn’t worth it.

Crown Crates, just as all lootboxes, are player-hostile marketing gimmicks aimed at children, teenagers, and adults susceptible to gambling problems. They inspire gambling problems where none previously existed and enable already problematic gambling issues.

Casinos are banned in many places because they don’t do any good. I’ve personally seen someone waste a hundred dollars in the span of five minutes on scratch offs and won nothing. There is no good that comes from inserting gambling into products that companies know for a fact attract young audiences, because they know full well it’s harmful, but will do it anyway for a quick easy buck because a lack of laws and people like you don’t stop them.

"There are some serious mental disconnects if you think offering something for direct sale is even remotely similar to handing it out for nothing.

You have no argument. You get answers to your questions then ask it again as if it hasn’t already been answered."

You're just projecting here. You've been stating and restating the same thing since the thread started and ignoring any counter argument.

"There are sparkles and pretty behind the slot machine. Ffs they were even described to you. Sparkly flairs behind the “rare” cards, Pacrooti cheering you on and encouraging you to buy more crates when you run out, his exciting “Oh look! A bonus card!” to shoot off that dopamine. These are all tactics to get people addicted."

These are tactics to get people to spend their money. Whether they become addicted or not is wholly contingent upon that person's self-control. That's like saying the Budweiser advertisement's only goal is to get you addicted to their product. That's ridiculous. You continue to conflate marketing and advertising with malicious behavior.

"On top of that, yes we are actually blasted with ads, why do you think someone made an addon to suppress it showing?
Every time you open the crown store, that little exclamation mark showing “NEW THING HERE” tries to pull you to look at crates. So does the Featured page if you open the store. So do the ads in the launcher reminding you all about the new crate season. So does the Crown store showcase to let you know there will be even more crates exclusives.
"
"These commercials are evil because they are trying to get me to spend money on their product."

"I’ve come to realize you’re one of the sort who’s already sunk far too much money into the scam, and so feel desperately like you have to maintain it to feel like your wasted money was worth it, but it was wasted, and it certainly wasn’t worth it."

Here you go again throwing shade on people who disagree with you. Can't engage in debate and win? Convince yourself of your moral superiority to your opponent and it's like you win every time!

"Crown Crates, just as all lootboxes, are player-hostile marketing gimmicks aimed at children, teenagers, and adults susceptible to gambling problems. They inspire gambling problems where none previously existed and enable already problematic gambling issues."

It's an 18+ game - it's obviously not a marketing gimmick aimed a children or teenagers. If someone already has an addictive personality, you can't blame the thing that they got addicted to simply because they didn't have enough self control not to get addicted to it. Crown Crates are aimed towards responsible adults that play the game. If you're not a responsible adult that's all on you. Again, complete lack of any sense of personal responsibility or self-control. It's always everyone else's fault.

"Casinos are banned in many places because they don’t do any good. I’ve personally seen someone waste a hundred dollars in the span of five minutes on scratch offs and won nothing. There is no good that comes from inserting gambling into products that companies know for a fact attract young audiences, because they know full well it’s harmful, but will do it anyway for a quick easy buck because a lack of laws and people like you don’t stop them."

Casinos are banned only because the state does or doesn't allow legalized gambling - it has nothing to do with morality. Yes, sometimes people waste money gambling - that's the risk when you gamble. Did you write an angry letter to the casino on your friend's behalf because he spent money at their casino and didn't win anything? They'd be laughing at that letter for weeks. If you have a prejudice against people that gamble or gambling in general, that's fine. Just be honest with yourself and with the rest of us, and stop pretending that you're doing something 'for the kids' over a gambling mechanic in an 18 + game. You're just being a moral busy body because you can't afford Crown Crates.

ZOS_FalcoYamaoka

Greetings,

Some posts have been edited due to violating our rules around baiting. Please debate the topic and refrain from personal insults.

Hallothiel

You're just being a moral busy body because you can't afford Crown Crates.

Hysterical. I choose NOT to spend my dosh (& I have quite a bit to spend) on ridiculous crates as I think they are a rubbish & manipulative way of selling items & make me think less of a company that actively encourages such practices.

Kahnak

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

RGD wrote: »

latest being the UK, the NHS saying they're unhealthy, and can lead to gambling addictions and such.

Alcohol is also unhealthy, but pubs are everywhere and unless your pregnant, under age, or have a medical issue that prevents you from drinking, you are looked at suspiciously for not consuming alcohol.

That particular article got me thinking, is it time to get rid of Crown Crates in favour of some less egregious and predatory systems for cool stuff?

Its not predatory. People need to learn to take responsibility for themselves and stop expecting a nanny state to coddle and care for them and shield them from things that might harm them.

Now, I predict that there'll be some people who'll say things like "lol, crown crates are optional, so if you don't like 'em, don't buy 'em!" - obviously that's the case, but for a lot of people, cosmetics are a large part of video games, like, a huge part, and crown crates hold some of the nicest cosmetics in the game. It's CRYSTAL CLEAR that 99% of the Crown Store item developers time is spent on upcoming content for Crown Crates. This sucks because the Crown Crate (loot box) system is predatory and exploitative of players who value cosmetics in games by stuffing the cool stuff behind a steep price and unbelievable RNG chances. Now, to those who say they're optional, yes they are, but you can agree that ZOS is fully capable of introducing the same cosmetics in a more consumer-friendly and generally less disgusting way.

So crown crates are predatory because they have items in them some people desire? Really? Wow.


I find crown crates to be very consumer friendly. i even grab a few every once in a great while. I also go to the casino every once in a while and never spend more than i want too and never have gamblers remorse. People who have problems with situations in which something is a gamble should stay away from those situations. However, the other 97% of the population( Here in the US, 3% of the population has a gambling problem.) should not have to suffer because 3% of the population is incapable of self control.

I think it is absolutely 100% cheeky for a small percentage of the population to expect a large percent of the population to cater to them because they lack self control and good judgement. I have to wonder if the same people play the lottery and then expect the "state" to give them a reward for playing?

There are probably quite a few ways to still monetize the stuff from crown crates successfully, but not be lame about the way it's done. First being obvious, just put them on the crown store as a direct purchase. Second, and probably will have people rolling their eyes at the suggestion of it, but a "Battle Pass" type system could be introduced. There's more than enough content placed in crown crates to fill a 100-tier pass with free and premium tiers. The challenges could be an easy thing, too; things like do certain dungeons, repeatable quests, crafting writs, kill certain amounts or types of enemies, dolmens, events, world bosses, the possibilities are quite endless. This way the items will be monetizable via the premium pass and buying tiers, and it'll incentivize certain activities for the players to return to. There's a few basic ways to replace Crown Crates that I, and I imagine plenty of players would be happy to engage in.

They have a system that works, it is crown crates. If they have to go to a system in which they have to have set prices for items, they will either stop selling those items or, more likely, have to sell far more desirable items like actual pay 2 win items.

The idea behind crown crates or any type of "gambling" is that you only spend what you can afford to lose. If you ( general)are spending more than you can afford to lose trying to win some pixels, that is not our( the communities) problem. Why should we be punished for your(general) irresponsibility and inability to make adult decisions?

I doubt anyone from ZOS will read this, let alone crown crates ever disappearing, the best chance of that happening would be for as many people as possible to stop buying them, or many countries outlawing loot box-type mechanics in video games. It's something I hope will happen one day, because I like the stuff in the crates, and I'm happy to purchase them and support the game, but I will not buy the CHANCE to get something.

And suddenly the motive is made clear. " I want X but i dont like the price of X, so i want the entire system to be changed so i can acquire X on my terms" That is not the way the world works.

And you are right crown crates will probably not ever go away. In the US gambling is becoming legal in far more places, not the other way around. Every bar in my state has legal gambling machines in it, something it didnt have 10 years ago. The most you are going to get here in the states is that ZOS is forced to disclose odds of winning each prize, which is something they should have to do.

People who actually think like this are just as much to blame as the actual perpetrators.

What is it like generalizing about the morality of people you don't agree with and then proceeding to add nothing of value to the conversation?

You add nothing of value to society by defending a business practice which is blatantly predatory. You are quite literally part of the problem.

So, it's ok for you to not add anything of value to the conversation, yet you're asserting that I'm the alleged problem for doing what you are doing. You're not even a good contrarian. Not to mention that you've not given any evidence that would suggest Crown Crates are blatantly predatory. Instead of being adversarial to everyone who disagrees with you're narrow world view, maybe you should just sit down. Society doesn't need entitled people with no sense of personal responsibility making up the rules for the rest of us. You're just screeching.

Kahnak

Hallothiel wrote: »

You're just being a moral busy body because you can't afford Crown Crates.

Hysterical. I choose NOT to spend my dosh (& I have quite a bit to spend) on ridiculous crates as I think they are a rubbish & manipulative way of selling items & make me think less of a company that actively encourages such practices.

Weird flex, but ok. That's obviously your prerogative.

Iccotak

@Anotherone773

and a reasonable person expects that the crown store should just offer everything in crates in the Crown store. There's nothing socialist about that.

You know what would get people inclined to actually buy items? If they were available - sounds capitalist to me.

Also you can't depend on gems for everything. The very top apex-radiant rewards cannot be bought with gems, they rely entirely on RNG
Like the Chilling Senche-lizard: https://eso.mmo-fashion.com/chilling-senche-lizard/

Nothing about crown crates (which are gambling make no mistake about that) is consumer friendly. Period. End of Story.

Bradyfjord

Akisohida wrote: »

People need to take care of themselves, but we also need to ensure companies can't take advantage of people with problems in the first place.

It's not the problem gambler's fault that a slot machine or lootbox mechanic was scientifically designed to rope them in.
THAT is the companies fault for developing it, or even just using it, in the first place.

Do you blame the drug user for being hooked on drugs? Or do you blame the man that supplied the drugs and try to help the user by removing (or in the lootbox's case putting limitations on) the dealer making them addicted?

You're almost there. It's both. The legal term is 'Duty to Care'. To an extent, each party has a duty to care about the outcome. That is what will ultimately be debated from an ethical point of view.

I can't predict what the actual outcome of the legal debates in other countries would be, but in the U.S. we have precedent with other forms of gambling (casinos) and other forms of addiction (alcohol). In these examples the law requires these businesses to:

• Inform user/gambler (addicted or not) about the harms that may befall them should they use the product/game.
• Pay into a fund for various public awareness statements
• Every advertisement carries a statement about the dangers of overindulging/addiction
• Inform in clearly visible places/advertisements that there are phone numbers to call if they need help with addiction
• Probably there are other things I am not aware of, but this is the gist. These companies have a 'Duty to Care'.

This is how it will probably go in the U.S. if the government would get involved with loot crates.

An approach like this doesn't need anyone to be 'at fault'. Thus there is no one to 'blame'. No one is a 'victim of predatory practices'. It is simply that some people are addicted to things, and people operating in certain business spaces will be required to act on their 'Duty to Care' in a way appropriate by law.

darthgummibear_ESO

Kahnak wrote: »

It's an 18+ game - it's obviously not a marketing gimmick aimed a children or teenagers.

This is one of the most ignorant things I've seen in this thread and just proves you have no idea what you are talking about.

svartorn

RGD wrote: »

So as the title above says, there's quite a few countries debating the legality of Loot Boxes, and gambling mechanics in games. Recently, while not legally relevant but is a significant event in the debate, in the UK, the National Health Service (NHS) wrote about loot boxes in games and say they're unhealthy, and that they can lead to a gambling addiction. That particular article got me thinking, is it time to get rid of Crown Crates in favour of some less egregious and predatory systems for cool stuff? YES, it is! (tbh, crown crates should've never existed imo, brought my opinion on ZOS down quite abit when they were introduced.)

Now, I predict that there'll be some people who'll say things like "lol, crown crates are optional, so if you don't like 'em, don't buy 'em!" - obviously that's the case, but for a lot of people, cosmetics are a large part of video games, like, a huge part, and crown crates hold some of the nicest cosmetics in the game. It's CRYSTAL CLEAR that 99% of the Crown Store item developers time is spent on upcoming content for Crown Crates. This sucks because the Crown Crate (loot box) system is predatory and exploitative of players who value cosmetics in games by stuffing the cool stuff behind a steep price and unbelievable RNG chances. Now, to those who say they're optional, yes they are, but you can agree that ZOS is fully capable of introducing the same cosmetics in a more consumer-friendly and generally less disgusting way.

There are probably quite a few ways to still monetize the stuff from crown crates successfully, but not be lame about the way it's done. First being obvious, just put them on the crown store as a direct purchase. Second, and probably will have people rolling their eyes at the suggestion of it, but a "Battle Pass" type system could be introduced. There's more than enough content placed in crown crates to fill a 100-tier pass with free and premium tiers. The challenges could be an easy thing, too; things like do certain dungeons, repeatable quests, crafting writs, kill certain amounts or types of enemies, dolmens, events, world bosses, the possibilities are quite endless. This way the items will be monetizable via the premium pass and buying tiers, and it'll incentivize certain activities for the players to return to. There's a few basic ways to replace Crown Crates that I, and I imagine plenty of players would be happy to engage in.

I doubt anyone from ZOS will read this, let alone crown crates ever disappearing, the best chance of that happening would be for as many people as possible to stop buying them, or many countries outlawing loot box-type mechanics in video games. It's something I hope will happen one day, because I like the stuff in the crates, and I'm happy to purchase them and support the game, but I will not buy the CHANCE to get something.

Loot boxes and gambling will be banned in most, if not all first world countries.

It will continue on here because predatory capitalism is the name of the game. It will *never* be banned here.

Edit: Here = The United States

Kahnak

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

It's an 18+ game - it's obviously not a marketing gimmick aimed a children or teenagers.

This is one of the most ignorant things I've seen in this thread and just proves you have no idea what you are talking about.

Because 18 + are children and teenagers? Lol

You're just a contrarian throwing out insults. Try again.