As many countries are debating lootbox legality, how about getting rid of or replacing Crown Crates?

Kahnak

Elsonso wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

I’m honestly thinking right now that people are trying to get Crown Crates removed, not for the people who are addicted, but because they want to directly purchase Crown Crate items. And are using people who addicted to hide behind that reason.

I too think this.

People are quick to pull a sympathy card for their own ends.

Personally, I want them to get rid of Crown Crates and provide direct purchase. I just want to be able to buy the items without having to fiddle around with RNG. No gambling addiction or children cards being played here. In the first case, they need to seek help, or are getting help, local to them. In the second case, it is the responsibility of the parents, and if they are not doing that job properly, there are people local to them that will be happy to address that issue.

I understand this argument, but I, along with several other posters, believe that the cost of these direct purchases will end up being inflated as a consequence. Then, the people arguing about Crown Crates being predatory are going replaced by people screeching that the Crown Store items are too expensive, or that items exclusive to the Crown Store should be given away in-game. You have far fewer people willing to spend the crazy amount of crowns for exclusive housing in this game than those that are willing to spend far fewer crowns on Crown Crates for the chance to get something worth more than the crowns they paid for it.

HugsAlotOfBosmer

loot boxes are terrible and is gambling. and should get rid off ingame and out right banned in at least enouhg countries for companies to stop

VaranisArano

Kahnak wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

What point are you making by posting videos about people willingly spending money on Crown Crates?

Seems pretty obvious. This can go both ways, but the obvious point in posting them here is to show the negative side of the Crown Crates.

You mean the negative side of gambling? Why is that necessary? Was there some confusion about people not getting what they want sometimes if they gamble? No, obviously not.

Now I'm going to go find a video from "Super Size Me" to illustrate my point that when you eat only fast food for a month you get fat.

People are bad at understanding odds and probabilities. On top of that, ZOS does not actually publish the odds of winning, which they should do, but don't do, for obvious reasons. Watching someone else open them, and seeing the excitement or disappointment as they get, or do not get, the "good stuff", does help.

I have not watched all of them, but I have watched the one from Deltia as he opens his pile of Crown Crates. He is very quick to start labeling the stuff as trash, and his video really emphasizes that the main thing people get from Crown Crates is gems.

As a gem delivery system, I can certainly think of some improvements.

"People are bad at understanding odds and probabilities. On top of that, ZOS does not actually publish the odds of winning, which they should do, but don't do, for obvious reasons. Watching someone else open them, and seeing the excitement or disappointment as they get, or do not get, the "good stuff", does help."

While it may be true that people are bad at understanding odds, if casinos aren't required by law to publish odds of winning, I don't see why ZOS should have to publish odds simply out of the goodness of their heart.

A. Most state gaming commissions in the US do publish the odds of winning, at least on average for categories of machines. They also set minimum payouts (which most casinos exceed because competition). Tribal casinos don't have to, but that's because the tribes are sovereign and the laws don't apply in the same way.

B. Your point is moot, given that in 2020 Microsoft and Sony will be requiring all games that have loot boxes on consoles to release their odds. Gotta love it when the industry starts to self-regulate without the laws having to get involved.

Maxx7410

they are not gambling

Ri_Khan

I hate to judge but there is nothing more pathetic and mind-boggling than seeing people defend this garbage existing in a fantasy video game. The only logical reasons I can come up with for such blatant displays of ignorance are that these sad individuals are either gambling addicts, shills or just extremely naive.

anitajoneb17_ESO

VaranisArano wrote: »

B. Your point is moot, given that in 2020 Microsoft and Sony will be requiring all games that have loot boxes on consoles to release their odds. Gotta love it when the industry starts to self-regulate without the laws having to get involved.

I highly doubt that the industry would start self-regulating if governments were not thinking/threatening of regulating them by law. By "self-regulating", these industries are just trying to run ahead of the law and do their own thing rather than have to comply with a compound of laws that are likely to be less in their favour than their home-made thing.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Ri_Khan wrote: »

I hate to judge but there is nothing more pathetic and mind-boggling than seeing people defend this garbage existing in a fantasy video game. The only logical reasons I can come up with for such blatant displays of ignorance are that these sad individuals are either gambling addicts, shills or just extremely naive.

Not necessarily.
It's just that some people think "live and let live", and don't think gambling crates are such an horrible thing. It's just something that people are free to buy or not buy.
And some other people think it's a predatory practice that preys on weak-willed people.

Since both views are probably true to a certain extent, what's left is the question of forbidding or not forbidding (by law).
Are we going to forbid car because some people can't drive them, and because they're generally dangerous ?

VaranisArano

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

B. Your point is moot, given that in 2020 Microsoft and Sony will be requiring all games that have loot boxes on consoles to release their odds. Gotta love it when the industry starts to self-regulate without the laws having to get involved.

I highly doubt that the industry would start self-regulating if governments were not thinking/threatening of regulating them by law. By "self-regulating", these industries are just trying to run ahead of the law and do their own thing rather than have to comply with a compound of laws that are likely to be less in their favour than their home-made thing.

Correct. The decision by Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo to force companies to release loot box odds on console was part and parcel with the US Federal Trade Commission taking a serious look at loot box practices. Which only happened because of public opinion.

Its very much a matter of the gaming companies trying to self-regulate before the lawmakers get around to doing it for them.

Maxx7410

Ri_Khan wrote: »

I hate to judge but there is nothing more pathetic and mind-boggling than seeing people defend this garbage existing in a fantasy video game. The only logical reasons I can come up with for such blatant displays of ignorance are that these sad individuals are either gambling addicts, shills or just extremely naive.

Nothing more pathetic than people that want everything regulated is like they want to be slaves

Anotherone773

Isaura wrote: »

I guess that my comment is gonna get erased but yeah, ZOS and other gaming companies are perfectly aware that loot crates are a scam. And that the target are weak customers who don't realise that they are wasting money, money that could be use to pay bills, food, rent, or real quality-of-life improving stuff, and that instead goes into gambling for digital content. Not even real potential rewards. It's just even worse than a casino. But gaming companies don't care because it's generating money. They don't care at all. And people who are defending crates, to me, just lack maturity. I bet that just a fraction of crown crates buyers are really so rich IRL that they don't have to care about how they spend money. The majority should spend it more wisely. Nobody should be okay with this system. Like people said before it's predatory marketing. It's unethical and it proves how little zos cares about us.

Its only a scam if you live in some fantasy world where you can not separate chance to win VS direct purchase. Its like playing the lottery expecting to win and then calling it a scam when you get a free ticket instead of the jackpot even though you bought enough tickets to get the jackpot 5 times.


The "target" of crown crates are people who can afford them. It is not up to businesses to nanny everyone. Using this silly argument isnt even rational when real gambling is everywhere. Most retail businesses where i live have some sort of REAL gambling. some sit right next to the checkout counter. This is an absolutely ridiculous argument like these people are not exposed to game of chance outside of this video game on the regular basis.

You should hear the self righteous audacity of your own words. You are literally telling people that they shouldnt be spending their money on crown crates because you dont approve of it.

PS: you should worry more about your own finances and less about other peoples finances. People, despite what you may think, dont need you being their champion and SJWing for them.

Anotherone773

Ri_Khan wrote: »

I hate to judge but there is nothing more pathetic and mind-boggling than seeing people defend this garbage existing in a fantasy video game. The only logical reasons I can come up with for such blatant displays of ignorance are that these sad individuals are either gambling addicts, shills or just extremely naive.

"I hate to judge but there is nothing more pathetic and mind-boggling than seeing people trying to tell other people what to do with their income and attacking something that has only a positive impact on themselves." - FTFY

Anotherone773

HugsAlotOfBosmer wrote: »

loot boxes are terrible and is gambling. and should get rid off ingame and out right banned in at least enouhg countries for companies to stop

Gambling requires you to have a chance of losing. Its not gambling if their is no loss and their is no loss in crown crates as you are always guaranteed at least 4 items.

Kahnak

VaranisArano wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

What point are you making by posting videos about people willingly spending money on Crown Crates?

Seems pretty obvious. This can go both ways, but the obvious point in posting them here is to show the negative side of the Crown Crates.

You mean the negative side of gambling? Why is that necessary? Was there some confusion about people not getting what they want sometimes if they gamble? No, obviously not.

Now I'm going to go find a video from "Super Size Me" to illustrate my point that when you eat only fast food for a month you get fat.

People are bad at understanding odds and probabilities. On top of that, ZOS does not actually publish the odds of winning, which they should do, but don't do, for obvious reasons. Watching someone else open them, and seeing the excitement or disappointment as they get, or do not get, the "good stuff", does help.

I have not watched all of them, but I have watched the one from Deltia as he opens his pile of Crown Crates. He is very quick to start labeling the stuff as trash, and his video really emphasizes that the main thing people get from Crown Crates is gems.

As a gem delivery system, I can certainly think of some improvements.

"People are bad at understanding odds and probabilities. On top of that, ZOS does not actually publish the odds of winning, which they should do, but don't do, for obvious reasons. Watching someone else open them, and seeing the excitement or disappointment as they get, or do not get, the "good stuff", does help."

While it may be true that people are bad at understanding odds, if casinos aren't required by law to publish odds of winning, I don't see why ZOS should have to publish odds simply out of the goodness of their heart.

A. Most state gaming commissions in the US do publish the odds of winning, at least on average for categories of machines. They also set minimum payouts (which most casinos exceed because competition). Tribal casinos don't have to, but that's because the tribes are sovereign and the laws don't apply in the same way.

B. Your point is moot, given that in 2020 Microsoft and Sony will be requiring all games that have loot boxes on consoles to release their odds. Gotta love it when the industry starts to self-regulate without the laws having to get involved.

"A. Most state gaming commissions in the US do publish the odds of winning, at least on average for categories of machines. They also set minimum payouts (which most casinos exceed because competition). Tribal casinos don't have to, but that's because the tribes are sovereign and the laws don't apply in the same way."

There is an important distinction that I think you're ignoring here. They do not publish odds of winning - they publish the average payback, which is not the same.

"B. Your point is moot, given that in 2020 Microsoft and Sony will be requiring all games that have loot boxes on consoles to release their odds. Gotta love it when the industry starts to self-regulate without the laws having to get involved."

That's great. Obviously, this will make a lot of people happy. However, I would reckon that this is simply Microsoft and Sony getting ahead of more potentially restrictive regulations rather than the industry directly regulating itself to any degree, but whether that is the case or not is irrelevant. Sony isn't going to make any decision that doesn't further their bottom line unless they are compelled to do it by law. I'm pretty sure they are the sole reason why there isn't even a discussion about cross-platform play right now.

Edit: Read this after my post. Apologies for the restating the same point.

"Its very much a matter of the gaming companies trying to self-regulate before the lawmakers get around to doing it for them."

Anotherone773

This pretty much sums up this entire thread

Kahnak

Ri_Khan wrote: »

I hate to judge but there is nothing more pathetic and mind-boggling than seeing people defend this garbage existing in a fantasy video game. The only logical reasons I can come up with for such blatant displays of ignorance are that these sad individuals are either gambling addicts, shills or just extremely naive.

Why is it that this is the only argument people against lootboxes can come up with? That everyone that disagrees with you is an addict, shilling or stupid. You haven't provided anything here that would suggest a reason to pull lootboxes from the store.

Hallothiel

Anotherone773 wrote: »

HugsAlotOfBosmer wrote: »

loot boxes are terrible and is gambling. and should get rid off ingame and out right banned in at least enouhg countries for companies to stop

Gambling requires you to have a chance of losing. Its not gambling if their is no loss and their is no loss in crown crates as you are always guaranteed at least 4 items.

Ffs. The items are of such low quality & the gem extraction rate is appalling but that is how they are trying to get round the ‘gambling’ label - and their (correct spelling for context, please note) attempt does not hide that it is a ridiculous system.

Elsonso

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

But I do have to ask, are you prepared for the possibility that all the items currently in crates may never be made available again?

It's important to consider how ZOS might react after a crate removal. It does not necessarily mean that things will get better for the consumer or collector.

It could just as easily get worse, as far as collectors are concerned.

Collecting is something that happens due to a favorable confluence of events at a particular time, not something that any game studio needs to enshrine and enable for everyone across time.

As for them not making the crate items available, as far as I am concerned, they were never available in the first place.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

B. Your point is moot, given that in 2020 Microsoft and Sony will be requiring all games that have loot boxes on consoles to release their odds. Gotta love it when the industry starts to self-regulate without the laws having to get involved.

I highly doubt that the industry would start self-regulating if governments were not thinking/threatening of regulating them by law. By "self-regulating", these industries are just trying to run ahead of the law and do their own thing rather than have to comply with a compound of laws that are likely to be less in their favour than their home-made thing.

So?

Ri_Khan

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Not necessarily.
It's just that some people think "live and let live", and don't think gambling crates are such an horrible thing. It's just something that people are free to buy or not buy.

This type falls under "extremely naive". Or perhaps I could add a "lack of empathy" category to the list? Either way, there is absolutely no debate about this as far as I'm concerned. I know all too well, from experience, how much damage gambling addiction can cause to peoples lives and communities around them. At this point, loot crates are unregulated gambling and should not be in video games until they are.

Eormenric

I don't know why the Crown Crate system hasn't been revamped to look like this:

1 Crown Crate = 400 crowns.
4 Crown Crates = 1500 crowns.
15 Crown Crates = 5000 crowns.

(A rare item of X quality is always guaranteed, while there is a chance for an additional Y and Z quality.)

Purchase Directly:
X item = 800 crowns (Costumes, Flashy Emotes, Personalities, Motif Books, One-off Mounts, Unique Target Dummies, Pets, Skins, Exclusive Furniture that can be traded)
Y item = 1200 crowns (Distinct Mounts, new "Character Fantasy" skin/personality/emote combination, Packs of Motif Books that can be traded)
Z item = 1600 crowns (Peculiar Mounts, Graphical Change to Ability)

(Once the current Crown Crate is over, these prices will double, but be available year-round. It can be called like "Remnants of [crate]" and the story can be that Pacrooti smuggled these items in, so you have to pay double for his troubles.)

Let's say in a crown crate, you have the possibility of:

18 "X" items.
10 "Y" items.
4 "Z" items.

Customer Scenario A: "Hmm. I like 14/18 X items, 8/10 Y items, and 3/4 Z items. I'm pretty much guaranteed something I'll enjoy if I buy some crown crates. K, I'll do that." Player buys 15 crown crates for 5000 crowns and enjoys 90% of their findings (let's say, 1 Z item, 4 Y items, and 15 X items), feeling the transaction fair and worthwhile.

OR

Customer Scenario B: "Hmm. I only like 3/18 X items, 4/10 Y items, and 3/4 Z items. Buying a crown crate seems very risky for me. I'll just buy them directly." Player buys 2 Z items and 1 Y item for 4800 crowns and enjoys 100% of their findings, feeling the transaction fair and worthwhile.

Good things: Players are allowed to make decisions that best reflect their desires. They are able to weigh the pros and cons of taking a risk versus paying more for a guarantee. At the end of the day, even if they take a risk and miss out, they can still retrieve the exact items they want. Also, by giving players a 50% bargain by purchasing items while the crown crate is active, they could be more likely to buy something to begin with.

Bad things: The Crown Crates are less of a cash grab and more of a balanced feature, resulting in the chance of less money for ZOS. Player-wise, with guaranteed rewards, your super rare mount that you used to spend $200 trying to get now has a chance of making you feel not as valuable because others attained it more cheaply. (Maybe talk to someone about this...)

Best things: If a consumer does not feel like they can buy-in to any part of the business model, that's effectively $0 gained for the business. By allowing customers multiple options to buy-in, a business is guaranteeing themselves revenue while establishing a base of repeat customers for when the customer can afford higher tiers. Instead of the business itself gambling by putting cosmetics behind RNG, and hoping that people suspend rationality to take that risk, they can now involve Risky Takers and Confident Buyers which just combines into what is called an "Informed Consumer".

ZOS relying on that suspension of rationale may prove more lucrative, as it may finally make a player break and buy-in to the only tier available just to be a part of the cosmetic brigade. But long-term, they should understand that customers are physiological. If the system of reward we partake in stops giving us the feeling of satisfaction, we will turn away from it, resulting in no money for ZOS. If we chase the system of reward, like an addiction, that's not something ZOS should feel proud of encouraging.

tl;dr Give players both options of risk and certainty for their purchases. Reap the rewards of every kind of customer. Guarantee your business a customer instead of hoping your potential customers cave-in and choose your model. Have integrity in addition to your desire for revenue.

darthgummibear_ESO

Kahnak wrote: »

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

@Anotherone773

and a reasonable person expects that the crown store should just offer everything in crates in the Crown store. There's nothing socialist about that.

You know what would get people inclined to actually buy items? If they were available - sounds capitalist to me.

Also you can't depend on gems for everything. The very top apex-radiant rewards cannot be bought with gems, they rely entirely on RNG
Like the Chilling Senche-lizard: https://eso.mmo-fashion.com/chilling-senche-lizard/

Nothing about crown crates (which are gambling make no mistake about that) is consumer friendly. Period. End of Story.

Actually, a reasonable person doesnt. A reasonable person expects to get what they paid for in the crown store and that is EXACTLY what they get. They get a crate, in this context, in which they have a CHANCE of getting various items. They are buying the CHANCE, not the item. CHANCE. Furthermore, you are guaranteed 4 items. A reasonable person, as i said, understands they are probably going to get lower tier items but they might get a higher tier item... unless they have been sheltered all their life. Stop making stuff up to support your non argument.

You know what would get people inclined to actually buy items? If they were available - sounds capitalist to me.

Global lottery statistics would say not true. Global lottery sales consistently increase by an average of 5% a year.

Zos has items in the store for people who want to directly purchase items. They have items in crates for people who want to win items. Many people, including me, enjoy loot crates and other treasure type chance games. ZOS is obviously making good money on the crates because they keep doing new ones.

Also you can't depend on gems for everything. The very top apex-radiant rewards cannot be bought with gems, they rely entirely on RNG

I stated that already. So what? You want the reward you have to take the risk. No risk, no reward.

You are a whole new breed of sucker.

Haha. No argument at all. Just insults for people you don't agree with.

Says the guy who sounds like he's trying to justify spending too much money on crates.

[Deleted User]

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