As many countries are debating lootbox legality, how about getting rid of or replacing Crown Crates?

Brandathorbel · January 2020

"Loot boxes and gambling will be banned in most, if not all first world countries.

It will continue on here because predatory capitalism is the name of the game. It will *never* be banned here.

Edit: Here = The United States"

I don't know about that. For many places it just means you can't sell to a minor or advertise for a minor. I can't see them banned, but i can see it affecting the rating of the game as if that matters

Bradyfjord · January 2020

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

It's an 18+ game - it's obviously not a marketing gimmick aimed a children or teenagers.

This is one of the most ignorant things I've seen in this thread and just proves you have no idea what you are talking about.

Actually, the poster does know what he's talking about. Age ratings do exist. And it helps parents better understand what is on offer, and fulfill their responsibility as a parent. If parents can't be bothered, then it's really on them.

ESO's rating according to ESRB is M17+. (So the poster is off by a bit)

Blood and Gore
Sexual Themes
Use of Alcohol
Violence

https://esrb.org/ratings/33311/The+Elder+Scrolls+Online/

These are the warnings on the ESRB page.

svartorn · January 2020

xbobx15 wrote: »

"Loot boxes and gambling will be banned in most, if not all first world countries.

It will continue on here because predatory capitalism is the name of the game. It will *never* be banned here.

Edit: Here = The United States"

I don't know about that. For many places it just means you can't sell to a minor or advertise for a minor. I can't see them banned, but i can see it affecting the rating of the game as if that matters

I know IRL politics aren’t allowed on this forum because reasons, but that said, the current administration gives zero cares for consumer protections. I don’t see that changing for the foreseeable future.

xeNNNNN · January 2020

bmnoble wrote: »

Just put everything up in the crown store all year round, scrap GEMS, let people buy what they want.

This ^

This still is the best and only way to do paid for non-gameplay altering content without it being horrid for the consumer barring egregious pricing.

svartorn · January 2020

That would make sense from a consumer’s perspective, but they are artificially creating scarcity to bully people into buying things NOW because it’s LIMITED TIME ONLY!!!!!!

xeNNNNN · January 2020

redlink1979 wrote: »

The best way to protest against crate's system is not to buy them... Companies continue with this "sales system" because there's people out there buying them.

IRL what happens to a product, any kind of product, when the intended target market doesn't buy/shows interest in it? Discontinuation of production in a matter of time: when the expected profit isn't achievable the product will cease to be produced with intention to sale.

I agree with all the people above who says it would be a lot better if ZOS just put the crate's items in the Crown Store without these "bad luck" roulette: I'm sure a lot more people would buy the items. I'd.

Q - Positive aspect of crates? A - Same positive aspect as going to a casino to gamble n y'all know how casinos work.

Your arguement defeats its self. Simply because saying "dont buy them" is like saying "matter" in a void. Without being able to control what people do and think you cannot reasonably argue to other people other than yourself to simply stop doing something.

If that were the case a quick chat with some people would stop them from smoking.

Kahnak · January 2020

svartorn wrote: »

That would make sense from a consumer’s perspective, but they are artificially creating scarcity to bully people into buying things NOW because it’s LIMITED TIME ONLY!!!!!!

Yep, apparently every time McDonald's releases the McRib for a 'limited time only' they are bullying me into buying them. Stop making me fat, McDonald's. It's not my fault for buying your food, it's your fault for your belligerent business practices.

xeNNNNN · January 2020

RGD wrote: »

So as the title above says, there's quite a few countries debating the legality of Loot Boxes, and gambling mechanics in games. Recently, while not legally relevant but is a significant event in the debate, in the UK, the National Health Service (NHS) wrote about loot boxes in games and say they're unhealthy, and that they can lead to a gambling addiction. That particular article got me thinking, is it time to get rid of Crown Crates in favour of some less egregious and predatory systems for cool stuff? YES, it is! (tbh, crown crates should've never existed imo, brought my opinion on ZOS down quite abit when they were introduced.)

Now, I predict that there'll be some people who'll say things like "lol, crown crates are optional, so if you don't like 'em, don't buy 'em!" - obviously that's the case, but for a lot of people, cosmetics are a large part of video games, like, a huge part, and crown crates hold some of the nicest cosmetics in the game. It's CRYSTAL CLEAR that 99% of the Crown Store item developers time is spent on upcoming content for Crown Crates. This sucks because the Crown Crate (loot box) system is predatory and exploitative of players who value cosmetics in games by stuffing the cool stuff behind a steep price and unbelievable RNG chances. Now, to those who say they're optional, yes they are, but you can agree that ZOS is fully capable of introducing the same cosmetics in a more consumer-friendly and generally less disgusting way.

There are probably quite a few ways to still monetize the stuff from crown crates successfully, but not be lame about the way it's done. First being obvious, just put them on the crown store as a direct purchase. Second, and probably will have people rolling their eyes at the suggestion of it, but a "Battle Pass" type system could be introduced. There's more than enough content placed in crown crates to fill a 100-tier pass with free and premium tiers. The challenges could be an easy thing, too; things like do certain dungeons, repeatable quests, crafting writs, kill certain amounts or types of enemies, dolmens, events, world bosses, the possibilities are quite endless. This way the items will be monetizable via the premium pass and buying tiers, and it'll incentivize certain activities for the players to return to. There's a few basic ways to replace Crown Crates that I, and I imagine plenty of players would be happy to engage in.

I doubt anyone from ZOS will read this, let alone crown crates ever disappearing, the best chance of that happening would be for as many people as possible to stop buying them, or many countries outlawing loot box-type mechanics in video games. It's something I hope will happen one day, because I like the stuff in the crates, and I'm happy to purchase them and support the game, but I will not buy the CHANCE to get something.

Flat purchases are the best. A battle pass on top of ESO+ would be horrendous and very obvious and baity. Battlepasses are just as egregious as lootboxes they just lack the RNG element.

take destiny for example. There is virtually nothing meaningful in their battlepass. Apart from gear cosmetics you can get by playing and the odd exotic engram which can give you duplicates. So whats the point? Its a shallow way to monetise your game and litterally just caters to people with instant gratification issues. Its a bad idea.

Flat. No bs. Buy what you want pricing is the best.

I mean imagine a store saying "Hey if you buy this pass you get access to everything thats coming but if you dont and if you just keep the basic stuff you wont see anything good we will just throw you a bone every now and then"

In store terms thats pretty horrible. A battlepass should not replace a paid for store element.

Anotherone773 · January 2020

Hallothiel wrote: »

[

No, it’s not friendly at all. It’s a highly dubious way to get people to spend money on ‘fun’ gambling.

And what is more capitalist than wanting to just buy the damn item, without all the rudiculous unecessary kerfuffle with stupid crates?

Again, this is a case of " I want it and i want on my terms and if you dont give it to me on my terms then... you are an evil predatory business because i cant get my way!!!" That is what i am seeing a lot of.

Not a single logical argument for removing the crates.

Hallothiel wrote: »

You're just being a moral busy body because you can't afford Crown Crates.

Hysterical. I choose NOT to spend my dosh (& I have quite a bit to spend) on ridiculous crates as I think they are a rubbish & manipulative way of selling items & make me think less of a company that actively encourages such practices.

Thats ok i think all the arguments to get rid of them are rubbish and manipulative. Treat crown crates like i treat religion, if you dont like it, dont partake in it but dont try to be mightier than thou and condemn it in the interest of what is best for everyone else.

darthgummibear_ESO · January 2020

Bradyfjord wrote: »

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

It's an 18+ game - it's obviously not a marketing gimmick aimed a children or teenagers.

This is one of the most ignorant things I've seen in this thread and just proves you have no idea what you are talking about.

Actually, the poster does know what he's talking about. Age ratings do exist. And it helps parents better understand what is on offer, and fulfill their responsibility as a parent. If parents can't be bothered, then it's really on them.

ESO's rating according to ESRB is M17+. (So the poster is off by a bit)
Blood and Gore

Sexual Themes

Use of Alcohol

Violence

https://esrb.org/ratings/33311/The+Elder+Scrolls+Online/

These are the warnings on the ESRB page.

They exist, but are pretty meaningless. When was the last time you visited the forum for ANY Mature-rated game that wasn't flooded with kids? Developers know this and to think they don't design around that is exceptionally naive.

Elsonso · January 2020

Bradyfjord wrote: »

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

It's an 18+ game - it's obviously not a marketing gimmick aimed a children or teenagers.

This is one of the most ignorant things I've seen in this thread and just proves you have no idea what you are talking about.

Actually, the poster does know what he's talking about. Age ratings do exist. And it helps parents better understand what is on offer, and fulfill their responsibility as a parent. If parents can't be bothered, then it's really on them.

ESO's rating according to ESRB is M17+. (So the poster is off by a bit)
Blood and Gore

Sexual Themes

Use of Alcohol

Violence

https://esrb.org/ratings/33311/The+Elder+Scrolls+Online/

These are the warnings on the ESRB page.

ESRB is apparently resisting adding gambling to the warnings for games that have loot boxes. I suspect that they can hide this because it is not strictly part of the game.

Honestly, as a parent, that is information that I want to know, whether it is part of the direct game play, or not.

Kahnak wrote: »

svartorn wrote: »

That would make sense from a consumer’s perspective, but they are artificially creating scarcity to bully people into buying things NOW because it’s LIMITED TIME ONLY!!!!!!

Yep, apparently every time McDonald's releases the McRib for a 'limited time only' they are bullying me into buying them. Stop making me fat, McDonald's. It's not my fault for buying your food, it's your fault for your belligerent business practices.

Yum. McRib. 210 grams of fatty goodness. Please. Bully me. Today, if convenient.

bmnoble wrote: »

Just put everything up in the crown store all year round, scrap GEMS, let people buy what they want.

I could live with this. The store would be crazy packed, though. Hard to find stuff. It would be an epic store to shop, and people would do that.

Sadly, this bypasses one of the most important tenet of gaming monetization, and that is artificial scarcity to drive purchases.

Royaji · January 2020

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

It's an 18+ game - it's obviously not a marketing gimmick aimed a children or teenagers.

This is one of the most ignorant things I've seen in this thread and just proves you have no idea what you are talking about.

Actually, the poster does know what he's talking about. Age ratings do exist. And it helps parents better understand what is on offer, and fulfill their responsibility as a parent. If parents can't be bothered, then it's really on them.

ESO's rating according to ESRB is M17+. (So the poster is off by a bit)
Blood and Gore

Sexual Themes

Use of Alcohol

Violence

https://esrb.org/ratings/33311/The+Elder+Scrolls+Online/

These are the warnings on the ESRB page.

They exist, but are pretty meaningless. When was the last time you visited the forum for ANY Mature-rated game that wasn't flooded with kids? Developers know this and to think they don't design around that is exceptionally naive.

Which means legal guardians of those kids are not doing their due diligence and prevent their kid from accessing the game despite being made fully aware that this game is not suitable for children. The fault is entirely on the parent.

Anotherone773 · January 2020

Iccotak wrote: »

@Anotherone773

and a reasonable person expects that the crown store should just offer everything in crates in the Crown store. There's nothing socialist about that.

You know what would get people inclined to actually buy items? If they were available - sounds capitalist to me.

Also you can't depend on gems for everything. The very top apex-radiant rewards cannot be bought with gems, they rely entirely on RNG
Like the Chilling Senche-lizard: https://eso.mmo-fashion.com/chilling-senche-lizard/

Nothing about crown crates (which are gambling make no mistake about that) is consumer friendly. Period. End of Story.

Actually, a reasonable person doesnt. A reasonable person expects to get what they paid for in the crown store and that is EXACTLY what they get. They get a crate, in this context, in which they have a CHANCE of getting various items. They are buying the CHANCE, not the item. CHANCE. Furthermore, you are guaranteed 4 items. A reasonable person, as i said, understands they are probably going to get lower tier items but they might get a higher tier item... unless they have been sheltered all their life. Stop making stuff up to support your non argument.

You know what would get people inclined to actually buy items? If they were available - sounds capitalist to me.

Global lottery statistics would say not true. Global lottery sales consistently increase by an average of 5% a year.

Zos has items in the store for people who want to directly purchase items. They have items in crates for people who want to win items. Many people, including me, enjoy loot crates and other treasure type chance games. ZOS is obviously making good money on the crates because they keep doing new ones.

Also you can't depend on gems for everything. The very top apex-radiant rewards cannot be bought with gems, they rely entirely on RNG

I stated that already. So what? You want the reward you have to take the risk. No risk, no reward.

Anotherone773 · January 2020

Kahnak wrote: »

svartorn wrote: »

That would make sense from a consumer’s perspective, but they are artificially creating scarcity to bully people into buying things NOW because it’s LIMITED TIME ONLY!!!!!!

Yep, apparently every time McDonald's releases the McRib for a 'limited time only' they are bullying me into buying them. Stop making me fat, McDonald's. It's not my fault for buying your food, it's your fault for your belligerent business practices.

As soon as Mc Donald's stops selling the Mc Rib again im going to sue them for distress and predatory business practices. When i win my tens of millions im going to buy 150 crown crates every morning to open while drinking my coffee and watching the sun rise on my yacht!

Starlock · January 2020

svartorn wrote: »

xbobx15 wrote: »

"Loot boxes and gambling will be banned in most, if not all first world countries.

It will continue on here because predatory capitalism is the name of the game. It will *never* be banned here.

Edit: Here = The United States"

I don't know about that. For many places it just means you can't sell to a minor or advertise for a minor. I can't see them banned, but i can see it affecting the rating of the game as if that matters

I know IRL politics aren’t allowed on this forum because reasons, but that said, the current administration gives zero cares for consumer protections. I don’t see that changing for the foreseeable future.

There has been a push in the United States over the last several decades to weaken consumer and public protections in favor of private and business interests. It's worth stepping back and asking why that is, especially in a country that is in principle supposed to represent the people or the public good. The answers to that question is a complex one, and something well beyond the scope of what is worth discussing on these forums. However, I do see this situation changing in the foreseeable future. History has borne out countless examples of what happens to societies that concentrate power into a few private interests at the expense of the general populace. It never lasts, and the upending of that inequality can be very ugly. Preventing any of that from happening is precisely why consumer protections and regulation are so important.

To be clear, a $40 virtual statue for a house in a video game isn't an issue in of itself. It's when we look at the larger picture of what has happened to the video gaming industry that things start looking pretty darned bad. I didn't realize how bad it had gotten until relatively recently as I just don't play games with predatory monetization (ESO being the sole exception) but this stuff is everywhere now. It's even to the point that companies are trying to deflect responsibility for protecting minors from exposure to gambling and addiction-forming primers with "use parental controls." Yes, companies would rather tell parents to "parent their kids properly" when they bought a video game for their children that is marketed and rated for... children. Which means it should be suitable for children, as in NOT contain gambling. But they can, and they do.

Anotherone773 · January 2020

Starlock wrote: »

svartorn wrote: »

xbobx15 wrote: »

"Loot boxes and gambling will be banned in most, if not all first world countries.

It will continue on here because predatory capitalism is the name of the game. It will *never* be banned here.

Edit: Here = The United States"

I don't know about that. For many places it just means you can't sell to a minor or advertise for a minor. I can't see them banned, but i can see it affecting the rating of the game as if that matters

I know IRL politics aren’t allowed on this forum because reasons, but that said, the current administration gives zero cares for consumer protections. I don’t see that changing for the foreseeable future.

There has been a push in the United States over the last several decades to weaken consumer and public protections in favor of private and business interests. It's worth stepping back and asking why that is, especially in a country that is in principle supposed to represent the people or the public good. The answers to that question is a complex one, and something well beyond the scope of what is worth discussing on these forums. However, I do see this situation changing in the foreseeable future. History has borne out countless examples of what happens to societies that concentrate power into a few private interests at the expense of the general populace. It never lasts, and the upending of that inequality can be very ugly. Preventing any of that from happening is precisely why consumer protections and regulation are so important.

To be clear, a $40 virtual statue for a house in a video game isn't an issue in of itself. It's when we look at the larger picture of what has happened to the video gaming industry that things start looking pretty darned bad. I didn't realize how bad it had gotten until relatively recently as I just don't play games with predatory monetization (ESO being the sole exception) but this stuff is everywhere now. It's even to the point that companies are trying to deflect responsibility for protecting minors from exposure to gambling and addiction-forming primers with "use parental controls." Yes, companies would rather tell parents to "parent their kids properly" when they bought a video game for their children that is marketed and rated for... children. Which means it should be suitable for children, as in NOT contain gambling. But they can, and they do.

FYI this game is not rated for children. In most countries, you can drink, get married, give (sexual) consent, and/or drive at an earlier age than this game is rated for.

Kahnak · January 2020

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

It's an 18+ game - it's obviously not a marketing gimmick aimed a children or teenagers.

This is one of the most ignorant things I've seen in this thread and just proves you have no idea what you are talking about.

Actually, the poster does know what he's talking about. Age ratings do exist. And it helps parents better understand what is on offer, and fulfill their responsibility as a parent. If parents can't be bothered, then it's really on them.

ESO's rating according to ESRB is M17+. (So the poster is off by a bit)
Blood and Gore

Sexual Themes

Use of Alcohol

Violence

https://esrb.org/ratings/33311/The+Elder+Scrolls+Online/

These are the warnings on the ESRB page.

They exist, but are pretty meaningless. When was the last time you visited the forum for ANY Mature-rated game that wasn't flooded with kids? Developers know this and to think they don't design around that is exceptionally naive.

Yeah, of course you know better even though you've still not provided any support for your argument. Apparently, you are able to determine the ages of people posting anonymously on a forum.

Starlock · January 2020

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

svartorn wrote: »

xbobx15 wrote: »

"Loot boxes and gambling will be banned in most, if not all first world countries.

It will continue on here because predatory capitalism is the name of the game. It will *never* be banned here.

Edit: Here = The United States"

I don't know about that. For many places it just means you can't sell to a minor or advertise for a minor. I can't see them banned, but i can see it affecting the rating of the game as if that matters

I know IRL politics aren’t allowed on this forum because reasons, but that said, the current administration gives zero cares for consumer protections. I don’t see that changing for the foreseeable future.

There has been a push in the United States over the last several decades to weaken consumer and public protections in favor of private and business interests. It's worth stepping back and asking why that is, especially in a country that is in principle supposed to represent the people or the public good. The answers to that question is a complex one, and something well beyond the scope of what is worth discussing on these forums. However, I do see this situation changing in the foreseeable future. History has borne out countless examples of what happens to societies that concentrate power into a few private interests at the expense of the general populace. It never lasts, and the upending of that inequality can be very ugly. Preventing any of that from happening is precisely why consumer protections and regulation are so important.

To be clear, a $40 virtual statue for a house in a video game isn't an issue in of itself. It's when we look at the larger picture of what has happened to the video gaming industry that things start looking pretty darned bad. I didn't realize how bad it had gotten until relatively recently as I just don't play games with predatory monetization (ESO being the sole exception) but this stuff is everywhere now. It's even to the point that companies are trying to deflect responsibility for protecting minors from exposure to gambling and addiction-forming primers with "use parental controls." Yes, companies would rather tell parents to "parent their kids properly" when they bought a video game for their children that is marketed and rated for... children. Which means it should be suitable for children, as in NOT contain gambling. But they can, and they do.

FYI this game is not rated for children. In most countries, you can drink, get married, give (sexual) consent, and/or drive at an earlier age than this game is rated for.

I know. I'm giving an example of how ridiculous this industry has gotten.

And honestly, I don't really care what age the game is targeted towards when it comes to the use of predatory monetization such as gambling mechanics. But having predatory monetization in games targeted towards children is particularly inexcusable and disgusting.

MEBengalsFan2001 · January 2020

You do realize that most other games put in game items that provide an advantage in PVE/PVP content in the boxes. It is why other games use them to generate revenue because of those top award items are ultra unique and not only are style based but also provide some type of advantage in the game.

ESO crates don't really do that and when you open a crate you are getting your value in the crate. I don't feel cheated with ESO crates. I do feel cheated with other games because of the unique award in those crates that provide an unfair advantage.

Starlock · January 2020

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

You do realize that most other games put in game items that provide an advantage in PVE/PVP content in the boxes. It is why other games use them to generate revenue because of those top award items are ultra unique and not only are style based but also provide some type of advantage in the game.

ESO crates don't really do that and when you open a crate you are getting your value in the crate. I don't feel cheated with ESO crates. I do feel cheated with other games because of the unique award in those crates that provide an unfair advantage.

Keep in mind that “advantage” doesn’t just mean numbers, though. Lots of people are collectors, socializers, and roleplayers. “Mere” cosmetics are very important for these people if not more important than numbers. Publishers know this, and exploit it ruthlessly especially because all to often customers believe it isn’t “game impacting” when it absolutely is.

Elsonso · January 2020

Starlock wrote: »

There has been a push in the United States over the last several decades to weaken consumer and public protections in favor of private and business interests. It's worth stepping back and asking why that is, especially in a country that is in principle supposed to represent the people or the public good.

Hmm. Actually, that is not the case. Consumer protection is a relatively recent focus of government.

Starlock wrote: »

To be clear, a $40 virtual statue for a house in a video game isn't an issue in of itself. It's when we look at the larger picture of what has happened to the video gaming industry that things start looking pretty darned bad. I didn't realize how bad it had gotten until relatively recently as I just don't play games with predatory monetization (ESO being the sole exception) but this stuff is everywhere now. It's even to the point that companies are trying to deflect responsibility for protecting minors from exposure to gambling and addiction-forming primers with "use parental controls." Yes, companies would rather tell parents to "parent their kids properly" when they bought a video game for their children that is marketed and rated for... children. Which means it should be suitable for children, as in NOT contain gambling. But they can, and they do.

We live in a world where, increasingly, gaming entertainment is expected to be free. Games have to be cheap, free, or something we can optionally pay for, but we also expect that they are top quality and attended to accordingly. Someone has to pay for that, and as it turns out, it is the players that pay for that. Of course, the players don't want to pay for it, they want it for free, cheap, or for an optional payment. Enter advertising, cash shops, loot crates, and other monetization, married to the whole "free to play" business model.

Going on about predatory this and that is just rhetoric. I don't know of anyone who can pull out facts showing how ZOS is deliberately targeting children and gambling addicts. Children are always interested in what adults are doing, so just having children playing the game is not even close to being an indicator. Likewise, the Crown Crates are gambling (not in the legal sense), but less so than what many churches and governments do to raise money.

TigressCreed · January 2020

My job as a forensic scientist and ZOS developers who also work very hard to get this game made and constantly improved is similar that at the end of the day we are both doing our jobs and need to get paid.
Stop expecting FREE entertainment. No service that offers quality is free. Everything costs money to create and make. Eso is marketed as a mature game 18+ if parents let their kids use their credit cards to purchase things that’s their problem. If something’s too expensive you can magically not buy it! If crown crates bother people do they also attack casinos and lottery tickets? How do you expect ZOS to constantly spend time on maintenance and game fixes and updates if they’re not getting paid?

TigressCreed · January 2020

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Maybe people should start taking responsibility for their actions.

They aren't "unhealthy" they aren't required. You don't have to have the items. If you feel like you can't help yourself and can't stop yourself from buying the items or crates then you should stop playing the game.

I do think they should just keep the crates, but make every item available at a gem rate. At least then you can extract gems from duplicate items or the massive stacks of potions and stuff and save up for what you want.

There are people with legitimate problems that mechanics like this are made to target.

Let me guess; you're one of those disgusting people that would look at me, with autism that prevents me from working because I just can't interact with people in the flesh, and say 'Just try harder to be normal. I can do it, so you can, too!'

Because you can't comprehend that people are different from you, and that YOU can just not spend money on an abusive, addicting mechanic means EVERYONE can!

Hell. I linked to research earlier stating that lootboxes TARGET THESE PEOPLE and yet there are still idiots in this post AFTER that post that claim 'No one's given proof that lootboxes target people!'.

I gave the proof, and everyone defending this practice ignored it to continue arguing their side.

I don't care what anyone's opinion is. Opinions are rarely right or wrong; they are opinions.

But the FACT is that lootboxes were made to target children & problem gamblers; people with low self-control, to milk every last cent.

This is a FACT, regardless of anyone's opinion on what THEY feel lootboxes are. This is why lootboxes are being pushed back against. And no one's opinion can change a fact.

Where’s you proof that ZoS’s lootboxes aim for your said targets.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0213194
'Previous research strongly suggested both the size and the direction of link between loot box use and problem gambling. This paper provides further support for this link. These results suggest either that loot boxes act as a gateway to problem gambling, or that individuals with gambling problems are drawn to spend more on loot boxes. In either case, we believe that these results suggest there is good reason to regulate loot boxes.'

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.190049#d3e2905
'Adolescent problem gamblers spent more than five times as much money on loot boxes than those who did not have a problem. Problem gambling and loot box spending were linked by an association of magnitude η2 = 0.120: more than twice as strong as the relationship seen recently in a similarly recruited adult population.
There is one clear conclusion that can be drawn from these results: when video game companies allow adolescents to buy loot boxes, they are potentially exposing them to negative consequences. It may be the case that loot box spending in adolescents causes problem gambling. It may be the case that loot boxes allow games companies to monetize problem gambling in these vulnerable populations for 11-digit annual profits. We believe that both relationships may potentially lead to serious adverse consequences for younger gamers.'

Should I continue?

And don't you dare try to claim ZoS's crates are not lootboxes;
You buy them with real money (Yes, you use fake money but you buy that fake money with real money. It's a BS tactic to trick people by saying 'Well TECHNICALLY..')

You get a randomized chance to get bad, good, and great items.

You have a lesser chance of getting a 'payout' of good/great items.

You can get duplicates that give you an small amount of a currency.

These are all things lootboxes do in any other game that actually calls them lootboxes. ZoS's crates are lootboxes. And lootboxes target those with problems.

Have I given enough proof now?

I said where does it say that ZoS is directly trying to target people with trouble gambling. In this game.

Not general copy/paste research on lootboxes.

Jesus Christ.

ZoS is using lootboxes the SAME WAY as everyone else.
Those lootboxes are designed to target kids and gamblers.
This means ZoS is targeting kids and gamblers.

How is this hard for you to understand? Or do you just not want to admit it?

Lootboxes are designed to target kids & problem gamblers.
ZoS uses lootboxes.
Thus ZoS is targeting kids & problem gamblers.

Do I need to say it a third time? Just because ZoS is not explicitly mentioned does not mean they are not guilty of it. All you're arguing is sematics because you have no other counter-argument.

Lol so because of kids and gambling addicts I get punished too and can’t buy crates? Wow not very democratic

Akisohida · January 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

There has been a push in the United States over the last several decades to weaken consumer and public protections in favor of private and business interests. It's worth stepping back and asking why that is, especially in a country that is in principle supposed to represent the people or the public good.

Hmm. Actually, that is not the case. Consumer protection is a relatively recent focus of government.

Starlock wrote: »

To be clear, a $40 virtual statue for a house in a video game isn't an issue in of itself. It's when we look at the larger picture of what has happened to the video gaming industry that things start looking pretty darned bad. I didn't realize how bad it had gotten until relatively recently as I just don't play games with predatory monetization (ESO being the sole exception) but this stuff is everywhere now. It's even to the point that companies are trying to deflect responsibility for protecting minors from exposure to gambling and addiction-forming primers with "use parental controls." Yes, companies would rather tell parents to "parent their kids properly" when they bought a video game for their children that is marketed and rated for... children. Which means it should be suitable for children, as in NOT contain gambling. But they can, and they do.

We live in a world where, increasingly, gaming entertainment is expected to be free. Games have to be cheap, free, or something we can optionally pay for, but we also expect that they are top quality and attended to accordingly. Someone has to pay for that, and as it turns out, it is the players that pay for that. Of course, the players don't want to pay for it, they want it for free, cheap, or for an optional payment. Enter advertising, cash shops, loot crates, and other monetization, married to the whole "free to play" business model.

Going on about predatory this and that is just rhetoric. I don't know of anyone who can pull out facts showing how ZOS is deliberately targeting children and gambling addicts. Children are always interested in what adults are doing, so just having children playing the game is not even close to being an indicator. Likewise, the Crown Crates are gambling (not in the legal sense), but less so than what many churches and governments do to raise money.

TigressCreed wrote: »

My job as a forensic scientist and ZOS developers who also work very hard to get this game made and constantly improved is similar that at the end of the day we are both doing our jobs and need to get paid.
Stop expecting FREE entertainment. No service that offers quality is free. Everything costs money to create and make. Eso is marketed as a mature game 18+ if parents let their kids use their credit cards to purchase things that’s their problem. If something’s too expensive you can magically not buy it! If crown crates bother people do they also attack casinos and lottery tickets? How do you expect ZOS to constantly spend time on maintenance and game fixes and updates if they’re not getting paid?

Strawman argument.

We're not angry it costs money.

We're angry it's a practice meant, at its core, to profit off children and people with a gambling problem; two sections of the population with self-control issues.

I should not have to tell people that preying on people with problems, or those too young to know better, Is. WRONG!

But instead of agreeing on this, you guys fight back tooth and nail on behalf companies that should be taken to task for targeting people who, for various reasons, cannot help themselves.

Laws evolve as society evolves. This means MAKING NEW LAWS AS NEW WAYS TO BE A HORRIBLE HUMAN BEING COME TO EXIST.

Did the Lemon Law exist before people tries to sell junker cars? Would you argue it's the buyer's fault for not doing their research instead? I mean, clearly the seller deserved to sell his $1,000 scrap car for $20,000 if he could lie that well! The BUYER should take some responsibility!

That is EXACTLY what people are arguing for here.
'It's not ZoS/Bethesda/EA's fault for literally creating a practice meant to push all the right mental buttons to addict people! JUST BE MORE AWARE!'

You do realize many laws were created from a moral standpoint? Murder? Immoral. Theft? Immoral. Selling a Lemon? (IE: A junker car by lying about it's damages). Immoral.

And targeting children and addicts to hoover their wallets? IMMORAL!

You're seriously arguing the wrong side of this, from a moral standpoint.
And if the laws created to limit lootbox BS; from a legal standpoint, too!

Just because something is legal, does not mean it's NOT immoral. And the law can be changed to better protect people, which is what laws are meant to do.

RGD · January 2020

TigressCreed wrote: »

My job as a forensic scientist and ZOS developers who also work very hard to get this game made and constantly improved is similar that at the end of the day we are both doing our jobs and need to get paid.
Stop expecting FREE entertainment. No service that offers quality is free. Everything costs money to create and make. Eso is marketed as a mature game 18+ if parents let their kids use their credit cards to purchase things that’s their problem. If something’s too expensive you can magically not buy it! If crown crates bother people do they also attack casinos and lottery tickets? How do you expect ZOS to constantly spend time on maintenance and game fixes and updates if they’re not getting paid?

This argument provides literally nothing. No one is expecting free entertainment. No one is expecting crown crate items to be put in for free. I literally say I'd buy them happily, even for a steep but reasonable price regularly if they were sold direct, rather than selling the incredibly small chance to get it for an unreasonable price.

I actually do strongly disagree with casinos and the lottery. I don't think highly in you if you partake in either. I strongly disagree with a casino being in video games, especially one which has a ton of monetisation options in the forms of regular DLC, expansions, crown store items plus convenience options like skyshards and mount training, ESO+ subscription, base-game purchase, etc. ZOS definitely doesn't NEED Crown Crates to keep afloat, they can make more than enough money by putting in straight purchases.

I can't believe I'm using this as an analogy, but Fortnite. It's a free game, and it has a rotating in-game store and battle pass and occasionally sells some collections of skins outside of their in-game store. They make a ridiculous amount of money from only a few monetisation options. I get that technically, this is a false equivalent because Epic has a lot more resources at their disposal considering they own Unreal Engine 4, one of the most popular engines, and Fortnite is one of the most popular games right now. Although this is true, ZOS have more avenues for revenue income, more than most games, and they were getting by just fine before crown crates existed, and the game gains more players all the time.

To say that "ZOS NEED Crown Crates" in the game to keep them afloat is false. To say "They are a business, a company, they are supposed to make money" is true, however many many many other games and companies make more than enough money through more honest and consumer-friendly means of monetisation. Those of us who are against the crates aren't out to ruin the fun of gamblers, although I personally don't understand what fun there is to have, we understand how manipulative loot boxes are to the public, and would rather be able to purchase things in games straight up. We want to pay for what we want, and know we will get it, it's really that simple.

Akisohida · January 2020

TigressCreed wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Maybe people should start taking responsibility for their actions.

They aren't "unhealthy" they aren't required. You don't have to have the items. If you feel like you can't help yourself and can't stop yourself from buying the items or crates then you should stop playing the game.

I do think they should just keep the crates, but make every item available at a gem rate. At least then you can extract gems from duplicate items or the massive stacks of potions and stuff and save up for what you want.

There are people with legitimate problems that mechanics like this are made to target.

Let me guess; you're one of those disgusting people that would look at me, with autism that prevents me from working because I just can't interact with people in the flesh, and say 'Just try harder to be normal. I can do it, so you can, too!'

Because you can't comprehend that people are different from you, and that YOU can just not spend money on an abusive, addicting mechanic means EVERYONE can!

Hell. I linked to research earlier stating that lootboxes TARGET THESE PEOPLE and yet there are still idiots in this post AFTER that post that claim 'No one's given proof that lootboxes target people!'.

I gave the proof, and everyone defending this practice ignored it to continue arguing their side.

I don't care what anyone's opinion is. Opinions are rarely right or wrong; they are opinions.

But the FACT is that lootboxes were made to target children & problem gamblers; people with low self-control, to milk every last cent.

This is a FACT, regardless of anyone's opinion on what THEY feel lootboxes are. This is why lootboxes are being pushed back against. And no one's opinion can change a fact.

Where’s you proof that ZoS’s lootboxes aim for your said targets.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0213194
'Previous research strongly suggested both the size and the direction of link between loot box use and problem gambling. This paper provides further support for this link. These results suggest either that loot boxes act as a gateway to problem gambling, or that individuals with gambling problems are drawn to spend more on loot boxes. In either case, we believe that these results suggest there is good reason to regulate loot boxes.'

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.190049#d3e2905
'Adolescent problem gamblers spent more than five times as much money on loot boxes than those who did not have a problem. Problem gambling and loot box spending were linked by an association of magnitude η2 = 0.120: more than twice as strong as the relationship seen recently in a similarly recruited adult population.
There is one clear conclusion that can be drawn from these results: when video game companies allow adolescents to buy loot boxes, they are potentially exposing them to negative consequences. It may be the case that loot box spending in adolescents causes problem gambling. It may be the case that loot boxes allow games companies to monetize problem gambling in these vulnerable populations for 11-digit annual profits. We believe that both relationships may potentially lead to serious adverse consequences for younger gamers.'

Should I continue?

And don't you dare try to claim ZoS's crates are not lootboxes;
You buy them with real money (Yes, you use fake money but you buy that fake money with real money. It's a BS tactic to trick people by saying 'Well TECHNICALLY..')

You get a randomized chance to get bad, good, and great items.

You have a lesser chance of getting a 'payout' of good/great items.

You can get duplicates that give you an small amount of a currency.

These are all things lootboxes do in any other game that actually calls them lootboxes. ZoS's crates are lootboxes. And lootboxes target those with problems.

Have I given enough proof now?

I said where does it say that ZoS is directly trying to target people with trouble gambling. In this game.

Not general copy/paste research on lootboxes.

Jesus Christ.

ZoS is using lootboxes the SAME WAY as everyone else.
Those lootboxes are designed to target kids and gamblers.
This means ZoS is targeting kids and gamblers.

How is this hard for you to understand? Or do you just not want to admit it?

Lootboxes are designed to target kids & problem gamblers.
ZoS uses lootboxes.
Thus ZoS is targeting kids & problem gamblers.

Do I need to say it a third time? Just because ZoS is not explicitly mentioned does not mean they are not guilty of it. All you're arguing is sematics because you have no other counter-argument.

Lol so because of kids and gambling addicts I get punished too and can’t buy crates? Wow not very democratic

Lol, because you don't care about anyone but yourself, kids and gambling addicts should be free targets for morally bankrupt companies looking to pad their bottom line?

You can't be an adult with a job like 'forensic scientist' and seriously think this way.

Also, my view has nothing to do with democracy. Again, you're talking in a way that makes me seriously question if you're even an adult, or just a kid trying to say big words to win an argument.

Coppes · January 2020

Akisohida wrote: »

TigressCreed wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Akisohida wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Maybe people should start taking responsibility for their actions.

They aren't "unhealthy" they aren't required. You don't have to have the items. If you feel like you can't help yourself and can't stop yourself from buying the items or crates then you should stop playing the game.

I do think they should just keep the crates, but make every item available at a gem rate. At least then you can extract gems from duplicate items or the massive stacks of potions and stuff and save up for what you want.

There are people with legitimate problems that mechanics like this are made to target.

Let me guess; you're one of those disgusting people that would look at me, with autism that prevents me from working because I just can't interact with people in the flesh, and say 'Just try harder to be normal. I can do it, so you can, too!'

Because you can't comprehend that people are different from you, and that YOU can just not spend money on an abusive, addicting mechanic means EVERYONE can!

Hell. I linked to research earlier stating that lootboxes TARGET THESE PEOPLE and yet there are still idiots in this post AFTER that post that claim 'No one's given proof that lootboxes target people!'.

I gave the proof, and everyone defending this practice ignored it to continue arguing their side.

I don't care what anyone's opinion is. Opinions are rarely right or wrong; they are opinions.

But the FACT is that lootboxes were made to target children & problem gamblers; people with low self-control, to milk every last cent.

This is a FACT, regardless of anyone's opinion on what THEY feel lootboxes are. This is why lootboxes are being pushed back against. And no one's opinion can change a fact.

Where’s you proof that ZoS’s lootboxes aim for your said targets.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0213194
'Previous research strongly suggested both the size and the direction of link between loot box use and problem gambling. This paper provides further support for this link. These results suggest either that loot boxes act as a gateway to problem gambling, or that individuals with gambling problems are drawn to spend more on loot boxes. In either case, we believe that these results suggest there is good reason to regulate loot boxes.'

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.190049#d3e2905
'Adolescent problem gamblers spent more than five times as much money on loot boxes than those who did not have a problem. Problem gambling and loot box spending were linked by an association of magnitude η2 = 0.120: more than twice as strong as the relationship seen recently in a similarly recruited adult population.
There is one clear conclusion that can be drawn from these results: when video game companies allow adolescents to buy loot boxes, they are potentially exposing them to negative consequences. It may be the case that loot box spending in adolescents causes problem gambling. It may be the case that loot boxes allow games companies to monetize problem gambling in these vulnerable populations for 11-digit annual profits. We believe that both relationships may potentially lead to serious adverse consequences for younger gamers.'

Should I continue?

And don't you dare try to claim ZoS's crates are not lootboxes;
You buy them with real money (Yes, you use fake money but you buy that fake money with real money. It's a BS tactic to trick people by saying 'Well TECHNICALLY..')

You get a randomized chance to get bad, good, and great items.

You have a lesser chance of getting a 'payout' of good/great items.

You can get duplicates that give you an small amount of a currency.

These are all things lootboxes do in any other game that actually calls them lootboxes. ZoS's crates are lootboxes. And lootboxes target those with problems.

Have I given enough proof now?

I said where does it say that ZoS is directly trying to target people with trouble gambling. In this game.

Not general copy/paste research on lootboxes.

Jesus Christ.

ZoS is using lootboxes the SAME WAY as everyone else.
Those lootboxes are designed to target kids and gamblers.
This means ZoS is targeting kids and gamblers.

How is this hard for you to understand? Or do you just not want to admit it?

Lootboxes are designed to target kids & problem gamblers.
ZoS uses lootboxes.
Thus ZoS is targeting kids & problem gamblers.

Do I need to say it a third time? Just because ZoS is not explicitly mentioned does not mean they are not guilty of it. All you're arguing is sematics because you have no other counter-argument.

Lol so because of kids and gambling addicts I get punished too and can’t buy crates? Wow not very democratic

Lol, because you don't care about anyone but yourself, kids and gambling addicts should be free targets for morally bankrupt companies looking to pad their bottom line?

You can't be an adult with a job like 'forensic scientist' and seriously think this way.

Also, my view has nothing to do with democracy. Again, you're talking in a way that makes me seriously question if you're even an adult, or just a kid trying to say big words to win an argument.

I think you’re a very holier-than-thou person from the thread and your posts.

You always speak about morality, calling us immoral for wanting adults to take responsibility for their actions; not blame them on companies.

We’ve stated our point clearly, and every time we counter something you say the same thing again and again. Copy and pasting the same things over and over.

Then you’ll start with the insults (i.e You’re disgusting! You’re immoral!). You over express your words too (i.e EXACTLY, IMMORAL).

You’re clearly incapable of seeing even a fraction of our point because you’re being blinded by your ‘holiness’.

You’re getting a bit to emotional in this debate.

Elsonso · January 2020

Akisohida wrote: »

We're not angry it costs money.

We're angry it's a practice meant, at its core, to profit off children and people with a gambling problem; two sections of the population with self-control issues.

I should not have to tell people that preying on people with problems, or those too young to know better, Is. WRONG!

I agree, but these forums are about ESO, not the world's problems. Let's stick to ZOS and ESO, m'kay?

Coppes · January 2020

People aren’t going to stop just because lootboxes are gone. People like that never stop. They’ll find something else on the Internet or another game is frantically spend money on. And it’s such as small amount of people who actually have the problem. A company changing their whole business model just the support people who can’t take responsibility isn’t right.

Take everything away and they aren’t learning anything.

You focusing on just withdrawing them and not helping them.

Focus on more programs that inform people, charities dedicated to helping people with gambling problems, etc.

It would be a much better use of your time and money instead of giving money to a company you clearly don’t want to give money to.

RGD · January 2020

Spaceroamer wrote: »

I think you’re a very holier-than-thou person from the thread and your posts.

You always speak about morality, calling us immoral for wanting adults to take responsibility for their actions; not blame them on companies.

We’ve stated our point clearly, and every time we counter something you say the same thing again and again. Copy and pasting the same things over and over.

Then you’ll start with the insults (i.e You’re disgusting! You’re immoral!). You over express your words too (i.e EXACTLY, IMMORAL).

You’re clearly incapable of seeing even a fraction of our point because you’re being blinded by your ‘holiness’.

You’re getting a bit to emotional in this debate.

My favourite part about your post is this: "wanting adults to take responsibility for their actions; not blame them on companies."

So companies aren't supposed to have responsibilities over their own actions? you're telling me they have no choice in what kinds of monetisation they implement, they're just automatically driven to loot boxes? (This is purely rhetorical, No, they aren't.)

Your point that "adults should take responsibility for their actions" - while at it's core is an ideal, it's not the case for everyone. And by that same token, companies should take responsibilities to be consumer friendly, and implement less predatory and more transparent monetisation into their games. Loot Boxes are highly controversial, many people disagree and have a distaste for their implementation because of their exploitative nature. Know what's a hell of a lot less controversial? selling things for an up-front price with no chance of not receiving what you pay for. I wonder why.

Taking away crown crates will not destroy your experience on ESO. If you like gambling, go to a casino or get a lottery ticket, go to a betting shop, play a sports game. There's plenty of places for you to get your dopamine fix, and lose your (presumably) hard-earned money at the same time.