Keep up the good fight. Do not stress about people suggesting that to get a solo story mode of these dungeons they need to get PvP in PvE zones or a vet instance of zones. Zos will make a decision on this on it's own merits. Not other aspects that have no bearing or relevance.
There are two facts to focus on. Maybe more.
First, the zone stories are designed to be solo, not group, and Zos has chosen to bring this into the DLC dungeons so a solo version of them makes sense. Another game that used to be a major title did this because it makes sense and it had no measurable negative impact on the game. I pointed out the real reason for that games decline earlier.
Second, money, money, money. Whether you rend (ESO+) access to the dungeons or buy the DLCs outright that is money which is the reason Zos creates all this content. It could possibly increase revenue from people who normally avoid dungeons due to the toxic nature we have seen from GF related thread.
In the end, those who like to do the group version will still do the group versions because it is what they like to do. It would likely be minimal effort for Zos to create these story mode versions once they had it setup.
Ciana_Rilian wrote: »Ciana_Rilian wrote: »Just so you guys know, if this is implemented and they give rewards for story dungeons i'll never queue again.
Why be stuck with a bunch of randoms when i can solo?
you guys will start to slowly kill the group content with this.
When will we cry for story mode trials?
becasue they won' give the same rewards? if you want group rewards, you have to do a group version. its not like this is a new and unexpected concept, other games have done this before.
story mode trials that don't drop trials gear or achievements - would be great. there are some choice stories in those.
What rewards will they give then? try and figure that out as a community. Because whatever they would implement there would be people that wouldn''t think it would be enough or some might think its too much. Apart from that i still think it would divide the playerbase.
Can you give me an example of other games who've done this?
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***
Ciana_Rilian wrote: »Ciana_Rilian wrote: »Just so you guys know, if this is implemented and they give rewards for story dungeons i'll never queue again.
Why be stuck with a bunch of randoms when i can solo?
you guys will start to slowly kill the group content with this.
When will we cry for story mode trials?
becasue they won' give the same rewards? if you want group rewards, you have to do a group version. its not like this is a new and unexpected concept, other games have done this before.
story mode trials that don't drop trials gear or achievements - would be great. there are some choice stories in those.
What rewards will they give then? try and figure that out as a community. Because whatever they would implement there would be people that wouldn''t think it would be enough or some might think its too much. Apart from that i still think it would divide the playerbase.
Can you give me an example of other games who've done this?
SWTOR for example. rewards could be random vendor trash. whatever you'd get from killing overland mobs in the zone that the dungeon is placed in. and it will not divide player base for one simple reason. people who would be using the mode are not the target audience of the group dungeons. best case scenario if story players step foot into a dungeon in a first place, they go in once and never again. they are not the same players you do pledges, etc with.
Mannix1958 wrote: »I'm not sure what the downside of this proposal would be.
DaveMoeDee wrote: »Ciana_Rilian wrote: »Ciana_Rilian wrote: »Just so you guys know, if this is implemented and they give rewards for story dungeons i'll never queue again.
Why be stuck with a bunch of randoms when i can solo?
you guys will start to slowly kill the group content with this.
When will we cry for story mode trials?
becasue they won' give the same rewards? if you want group rewards, you have to do a group version. its not like this is a new and unexpected concept, other games have done this before.
story mode trials that don't drop trials gear or achievements - would be great. there are some choice stories in those.
What rewards will they give then? try and figure that out as a community. Because whatever they would implement there would be people that wouldn''t think it would be enough or some might think its too much. Apart from that i still think it would divide the playerbase.
Can you give me an example of other games who've done this?
SWTOR for example. rewards could be random vendor trash. whatever you'd get from killing overland mobs in the zone that the dungeon is placed in. and it will not divide player base for one simple reason. people who would be using the mode are not the target audience of the group dungeons. best case scenario if story players step foot into a dungeon in a first place, they go in once and never again. they are not the same players you do pledges, etc with.
It can be the same people who do pledges. I have pugged plenty of vet pledges, but there are a significant number of dungeons where I haven't had a chance to follow the narrative closely. I would do those as a solo story mode.
Agreed though that drops should be trash and should not include dungeon specific drops. The mode is merely for the story, which necessarily includes the combat.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***
Ciana_Rilian wrote: »Ciana_Rilian wrote: »Just so you guys know, if this is implemented and they give rewards for story dungeons i'll never queue again.
Why be stuck with a bunch of randoms when i can solo?
you guys will start to slowly kill the group content with this.
When will we cry for story mode trials?
becasue they won' give the same rewards? if you want group rewards, you have to do a group version. its not like this is a new and unexpected concept, other games have done this before.
story mode trials that don't drop trials gear or achievements - would be great. there are some choice stories in those.
What rewards will they give then? try and figure that out as a community. Because whatever they would implement there would be people that wouldn''t think it would be enough or some might think its too much. Apart from that i still think it would divide the playerbase.
Can you give me an example of other games who've done this?
SWTOR for example. rewards could be random vendor trash. whatever you'd get from killing overland mobs in the zone that the dungeon is placed in. and it will not divide player base for one simple reason. people who would be using the mode are not the target audience of the group dungeons. best case scenario if story players step foot into a dungeon in a first place, they go in once and never again. they are not the same players you do pledges, etc with.
BejaProphet wrote: »Keep up the good fight. Do not stress about people suggesting that to get a solo story mode of these dungeons they need to get PvP in PvE zones or a vet instance of zones. Zos will make a decision on this on it's own merits. Not other aspects that have no bearing or relevance.
There are two facts to focus on. Maybe more.
First, the zone stories are designed to be solo, not group, and Zos has chosen to bring this into the DLC dungeons so a solo version of them makes sense. Another game that used to be a major title did this because it makes sense and it had no measurable negative impact on the game. I pointed out the real reason for that games decline earlier.
Second, money, money, money. Whether you rend (ESO+) access to the dungeons or buy the DLCs outright that is money which is the reason Zos creates all this content. It could possibly increase revenue from people who normally avoid dungeons due to the toxic nature we have seen from GF related thread.
In the end, those who like to do the group version will still do the group versions because it is what they like to do. It would likely be minimal effort for Zos to create these story mode versions once they had it setup.
I agree with everything you said. I had no idea this poll would be so dramatic. I had no idea so many wanted this. But now that it is here for all to see, I can’t imagine the developers have ignored it. I think this could really happen now.
Ciana_Rilian wrote: »Ciana_Rilian wrote: »Ciana_Rilian wrote: »Just so you guys know, if this is implemented and they give rewards for story dungeons i'll never queue again.
Why be stuck with a bunch of randoms when i can solo?
you guys will start to slowly kill the group content with this.
When will we cry for story mode trials?
becasue they won' give the same rewards? if you want group rewards, you have to do a group version. its not like this is a new and unexpected concept, other games have done this before.
story mode trials that don't drop trials gear or achievements - would be great. there are some choice stories in those.
What rewards will they give then? try and figure that out as a community. Because whatever they would implement there would be people that wouldn''t think it would be enough or some might think its too much. Apart from that i still think it would divide the playerbase.
Can you give me an example of other games who've done this?
SWTOR for example. rewards could be random vendor trash. whatever you'd get from killing overland mobs in the zone that the dungeon is placed in. and it will not divide player base for one simple reason. people who would be using the mode are not the target audience of the group dungeons. best case scenario if story players step foot into a dungeon in a first place, they go in once and never again. they are not the same players you do pledges, etc with.
Thanks for the example!
so you want them to implement this system so that a person can do it once and never touch it again. i my mind that a bit of a waste of development time. we can all say how it would be easy but it would probadly be harder to program then we might think. Alot of boss fight mechanics have to be changed for example.
And okay so no rewards for them, thats great i completly agree with it. but then what is the rewards for doing it solo? Just the story? are ESO dungeon stories that good? to me most of the story in this game is basic fantasy copy paste with a couple adjustments. don't get me wrong i enjoy the overarching scale and story of Elder scrolls, but elderscrolls ONLINE lore is basic mmo lore sprinkled with a bit of TES in my opinion.
Like someone else already said: what about all the extra instances that would have to be ran? Just so you can listen to your B written story at your own pace. We already have *** servers.
You can already solo normal dungeons easy enough. Just enter the dungeon from the map and do it that way?
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***
What I want to see is more of a solo mode as we have through much of the base game where the computer fills in the remaining members of the group that we lack. There could be an assortment of class/faction NPCs that we could choose from to take the group to 4 members. While I might choose 1 tank, 1 healer, and another DPS to fill out my group you may wish to experiment with a different configuration. It would also be a great learning and testing environment. Want to check out how your skills in one role or another are working? Here is where you can do that without other players suffering the consequences of your mistakes. ZOS likes for players to try different roles and activities. This would be a good way to encourage running dungeons and other group activities. It would open more of the game to a large part of the player base thereby adding value to ESO. Imagine the financial windfall from new sales of dungeon DLCs, increased ESO+ membership, and crown store purchases.
Moreover this type approach would be in keeping with Matt's blueprint for the game. Ignore the threads that you see about how ESO is an RPG or MMO. Instead take it from the person who developed,built, and runs the game. This quote from Matt Frior is just as true today as it was in 2016:
ESO is not really a traditional MMO, so we don’t use that term much around the office – and it is this distinction that separates it from other games. If you want to play it solo, like you did with other Elder Scrolls games, you can do that. If you want to play it super-grindy with dungeons, Trials, and group bosses as the core of you experience, you can join up with others and do that too. It’s really up to you to figure out how you want to play it, as we don’t enforce a play style one way or the other. In fact, ESO has been super-successful at taking gamers not used to massive online games, introducing them to the concepts of group play by making it fun and optional, and turning them into online gamers.
I believe that such a solo mode for group content would be the easiest way to make the game as accessible to the many without placing any undue burden on the few. Instead of a cost it is a moneymaker. It holds true to both the history of the TES franchise and to the vision of the creator of ESO. I'm all for it.
That quote has been refuted 304929042 times, and the game is even labeled as an mmo. What you are describing is EXACTLY what they did in swtor and it ABSOLUTE BUTCHERED the dungeon population. No thanks, a solo version, without any form of reward would be ok, but absolutely nothing more.
You are wrong about SWTOR. It is very obvious that when a game is not adding new content, especially group content plus simplifies their character builds heavily they will lose population.
If you were a serious group player in SWTOR, probably even a serious player to begin with, then Keyboardninja will be a recognizable name as he was one of the top theorycrafters in SWTOR and top raider. One of his stated reasons for leaving the game was the group content release schedule because they were releasing the next raid one boss at a time over a year. That comment came in January 2017 and it was not until a couple months ago they released the raid that came after that. That is a pretty slow pace and is the reason a large number of raiders left the game.
Link to that thread. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=913165
Granted, it is just part of his reasoning but it all comes down to poor management and direction of group content in the game.
Ciana_Rilian wrote: »Ciana_Rilian wrote: »Ciana_Rilian wrote: »Just so you guys know, if this is implemented and they give rewards for story dungeons i'll never queue again.
Why be stuck with a bunch of randoms when i can solo?
you guys will start to slowly kill the group content with this.
When will we cry for story mode trials?
becasue they won' give the same rewards? if you want group rewards, you have to do a group version. its not like this is a new and unexpected concept, other games have done this before.
story mode trials that don't drop trials gear or achievements - would be great. there are some choice stories in those.
What rewards will they give then? try and figure that out as a community. Because whatever they would implement there would be people that wouldn''t think it would be enough or some might think its too much. Apart from that i still think it would divide the playerbase.
Can you give me an example of other games who've done this?
SWTOR for example. rewards could be random vendor trash. whatever you'd get from killing overland mobs in the zone that the dungeon is placed in. and it will not divide player base for one simple reason. people who would be using the mode are not the target audience of the group dungeons. best case scenario if story players step foot into a dungeon in a first place, they go in once and never again. they are not the same players you do pledges, etc with.
Thanks for the example!
so you want them to implement this system so that a person can do it once and never touch it again. i my mind that a bit of a waste of development time. we can all say how it would be easy but it would probadly be harder to program then we might think. Alot of boss fight mechanics have to be changed for example.
And okay so no rewards for them, thats great i completly agree with it. but then what is the rewards for doing it solo? Just the story? are ESO dungeon stories that good? to me most of the story in this game is basic fantasy copy paste with a couple adjustments. don't get me wrong i enjoy the overarching scale and story of Elder scrolls, but elderscrolls ONLINE lore is basic mmo lore sprinkled with a bit of TES in my opinion.
Like someone else already said: what about all the extra instances that would have to be ran? Just so you can listen to your B written story at your own pace. We already have *** servers.
You can already solo normal dungeons easy enough. Just enter the dungeon from the map and do it that way?
jeez, will zos ever listen?
how many more replies and votes does this thread need until they take notice?
BejaProphet wrote: »jeez, will zos ever listen?
how many more replies and votes does this thread need until they take notice?
They won’t ignore this thread. They may decide against doing it for this or that reason, but they will definitely ask the question internally.
Too many people have voted and the results were too dramatically lop sided. They have noticed. Just don’t expect that to mean a comment in this thread. It will mean we see something a year from now if they go for it.
It is what it is.
Contaminate wrote: »TokenIntellect wrote: »Many players are vehemently opposed to what they're doing with dungeons. Validating the tender feelings of the 'hardcore' gamers should not come at the expense of burying the story behind one-shot mechanics and forced group play.
A failure to imagine a game that works for more people is one of the biggest disappointments of this last year.
Oh, and how does adding something that expands the access to story take something away from the 'hardcore' side of the game? That's just silliness. It's not a zero-sum game.
Normal dungeons are not hardcore in any way. They are very simply cleared by a moderately competent group willing to learn and respect the mechanics. They also don’t have any one shot mechanics. At all. Things that one shot on vet will never one shot you in normal.
Examples:
- MoL twins aura pops will only deal 95% hp, which can be healed up near immediately
- CoH2 second to last boss, overlaps will only take most of your health, you don’t even have to move during the fight if everyone stays in their four-point spot
- CoS final boss, Shadow Sense only takes most of your health, not all.
- Selene’s bear takes a lot of your health if you don’t block, but blocking makes it a nonissue
If apparently 75% of the playerbase wants dungeons the same level as an overland experience, then you all should have no issue forming groups to do so on any platform. To those claiming other people being in the instance ruins the experience, then your issue is not worth attempting to “fix” in specifically multiplayer content. Your issue is inherent to any multiplayer experience, and it’s a You problem that will have no solution in an MMO.
Contaminate wrote: »curtisnewton wrote: »Why not make dungeons without story.. TRial, training etc. No npcs.. Wouldnt that make the hardcore crowd happy?
But make the story experience seamless. No rule breaking with suddenly coming to a full stop because the story telling shell: game, wants you to meta a group and chat and talk...
Imagine reading a book, and suddenly the pages are in italian and chinese.. Why??
Imagine reading a book, it sets up this terrifying villain. It goes into detail about his plots and the adventurers before now that have all tried and failed to take him down. Now a new hero arrives, described in glorious detail their travels to his lair, and then says “villain died the end”. That’s what overland is to most skilled players.
There’s no flavor behind a 100k hp “boss”. There’s no flavor behind a “world ending threat” that dies in 3s.
What does have flavor and significant narrative appeal, is an enemy that actually provides a challenge. That survives a couple hits and actually gets to finish its dialogue before its dead.
You turn a dungeon in any way shape or form into a point and click text game with invulnerable NPCs and gutted mechanics just so you can read a couple lines of fluff conversation, then that’s no longer a compelling narrative. That’s pointless and no more engaging than watching someone else play through it.
The storytelling is fine. It’s the one good thing about ESO, but it requires you not attack in overland until the enemy stops talking, or he won’t get through his first line. In a dungeon, the questing is seamless, the NPC companion dialogue is fluff that isn’t needed to build the story fully.
The Wrathstone dungeons weren’t remotely important to the Elsweyr story as a whole. The stone tablets could have been literally anything else, and narrative would have remained the same in those dungeons.
You aren’t missing out on a story when you don’t hear every extra line of dialogue, you’re not missing out on the ice cream in a sundae, you’re missing at worst the extra swirls of whipped cream.
Contaminate wrote: »curtisnewton wrote: »Why not make dungeons without story.. TRial, training etc. No npcs.. Wouldnt that make the hardcore crowd happy?
But make the story experience seamless. No rule breaking with suddenly coming to a full stop because the story telling shell: game, wants you to meta a group and chat and talk...
Imagine reading a book, and suddenly the pages are in italian and chinese.. Why??
Imagine reading a book, it sets up this terrifying villain. It goes into detail about his plots and the adventurers before now that have all tried and failed to take him down. Now a new hero arrives, described in glorious detail their travels to his lair, and then says “villain died the end”. That’s what overland is to most skilled players.
There’s no flavor behind a 100k hp “boss”. There’s no flavor behind a “world ending threat” that dies in 3s.
What does have flavor and significant narrative appeal, is an enemy that actually provides a challenge. That survives a couple hits and actually gets to finish its dialogue before its dead.
You turn a dungeon in any way shape or form into a point and click text game with invulnerable NPCs and gutted mechanics just so you can read a couple lines of fluff conversation, then that’s no longer a compelling narrative. That’s pointless and no more engaging than watching someone else play through it.
The storytelling is fine. It’s the one good thing about ESO, but it requires you not attack in overland until the enemy stops talking, or he won’t get through his first line. In a dungeon, the questing is seamless, the NPC companion dialogue is fluff that isn’t needed to build the story fully.
The Wrathstone dungeons weren’t remotely important to the Elsweyr story as a whole. The stone tablets could have been literally anything else, and narrative would have remained the same in those dungeons.
You aren’t missing out on a story when you don’t hear every extra line of dialogue, you’re not missing out on the ice cream in a sundae, you’re missing at worst the extra swirls of whipped cream.
Some of us really like whipped cream, especially with moonsugar.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***
BejaProphet wrote: »jeez, will zos ever listen?
how many more replies and votes does this thread need until they take notice?
They won’t ignore this thread. They may decide against doing it for this or that reason, but they will definitely ask the question internally.
Too many people have voted and the results were too dramatically lop sided. They have noticed. Just don’t expect that to mean a comment in this thread. It will mean we see something a year from now if they go for it.
It is what it is.
We had this discussion a year ago. It was as lopsided then as it is now, as I recall. I wager we haven't seen anything about it for this year because they already had their development timetable planned and their plate was full, especially with that performance improvement plan.
god i really hope it will make them seriously consider it. fingers crossedBejaProphet wrote: »jeez, will zos ever listen?
how many more replies and votes does this thread need until they take notice?
They won’t ignore this thread. They may decide against doing it for this or that reason, but they will definitely ask the question internally.
Too many people have voted and the results were too dramatically lop sided. They have noticed. Just don’t expect that to mean a comment in this thread. It will mean we see something a year from now if they go for it.
It is what it is.
MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »What I want to see is more of a solo mode as we have through much of the base game where the computer fills in the remaining members of the group that we lack. There could be an assortment of class/faction NPCs that we could choose from to take the group to 4 members. While I might choose 1 tank, 1 healer, and another DPS to fill out my group you may wish to experiment with a different configuration. It would also be a great learning and testing environment. Want to check out how your skills in one role or another are working? Here is where you can do that without other players suffering the consequences of your mistakes. ZOS likes for players to try different roles and activities. This would be a good way to encourage running dungeons and other group activities. It would open more of the game to a large part of the player base thereby adding value to ESO. Imagine the financial windfall from new sales of dungeon DLCs, increased ESO+ membership, and crown store purchases.
Moreover this type approach would be in keeping with Matt's blueprint for the game. Ignore the threads that you see about how ESO is an RPG or MMO. Instead take it from the person who developed,built, and runs the game. This quote from Matt Frior is just as true today as it was in 2016:
ESO is not really a traditional MMO, so we don’t use that term much around the office – and it is this distinction that separates it from other games. If you want to play it solo, like you did with other Elder Scrolls games, you can do that. If you want to play it super-grindy with dungeons, Trials, and group bosses as the core of you experience, you can join up with others and do that too. It’s really up to you to figure out how you want to play it, as we don’t enforce a play style one way or the other. In fact, ESO has been super-successful at taking gamers not used to massive online games, introducing them to the concepts of group play by making it fun and optional, and turning them into online gamers.
I believe that such a solo mode for group content would be the easiest way to make the game as accessible to the many without placing any undue burden on the few. Instead of a cost it is a moneymaker. It holds true to both the history of the TES franchise and to the vision of the creator of ESO. I'm all for it.
That quote has been refuted 304929042 times, and the game is even labeled as an mmo. What you are describing is EXACTLY what they did in swtor and it ABSOLUTE BUTCHERED the dungeon population. No thanks, a solo version, without any form of reward would be ok, but absolutely nothing more.
You are wrong about SWTOR. It is very obvious that when a game is not adding new content, especially group content plus simplifies their character builds heavily they will lose population.
If you were a serious group player in SWTOR, probably even a serious player to begin with, then Keyboardninja will be a recognizable name as he was one of the top theorycrafters in SWTOR and top raider. One of his stated reasons for leaving the game was the group content release schedule because they were releasing the next raid one boss at a time over a year. That comment came in January 2017 and it was not until a couple months ago they released the raid that came after that. That is a pretty slow pace and is the reason a large number of raiders left the game.
Link to that thread. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=913165
Granted, it is just part of his reasoning but it all comes down to poor management and direction of group content in the game.
You do know about the big issue now with game developers. That issue is called CRUNCH. MMOs and games like Fortnite are mostly in CRUNCH mode all the time to release new content quickly and fast and to ensure constant income stream. CRUNCH typically involves long hours (12+) a day, weekends, etc... most game developers are called Vets after just 5 years in the industry because the industry has such a high burnout rate.
When I hear players state you went cheap and did a reskin of XYZ, I feel bad for the team that did that because it is an item that they were able to reskin and sell and make a decent profit off from its players. This is common especially in games with market places.
CRUNCH time in gaming development is a big issue and there is a push to create a Game Developers Union to ensure CRUNCH time goes away or to ensure developers are properly paid if they do end up being part of a games CRUNCH.
Some MMO games have reduced their development plans for the year do to this and with Bioware being SWTOR creator they have been under a microscope with what is called Bioware Magic since DA:I was launched in 2014. It doesn't surprise me to see STWOR not having as many releases.
I am shocked with how much ESO is releasing each year. Hopefully they have a big staff and if not, I hope I give props to the developers here.
BejaProphet wrote: »Ciana_Rilian wrote: »Just so you guys know, if this is implemented and they give rewards for story dungeons i'll never queue again.
Why be stuck with a bunch of randoms when i can solo?
you guys will start to slowly kill the group content with this.
When will we cry for story mode trials?
I think this is mistaken. Why hasn’t normal dungeons killed veteran? I can get basically the same loot for less trouble. In fact, I literally can’t remember the last time I ran a dungeon because I wanted a piece of gear. I still just run ebon alkosh and have never upgraded. Yet I’m still running vet dungeons.
My point is there is a healthy population seeking challenge rather than seeking the easiest version to get the rewards.
And the whole precept is that it will be absent the rewards.
BejaProphet wrote: »jeez, will zos ever listen?
how many more replies and votes does this thread need until they take notice?
They won’t ignore this thread. They may decide against doing it for this or that reason, but they will definitely ask the question internally.
Too many people have voted and the results were too dramatically lop sided. They have noticed. Just don’t expect that to mean a comment in this thread. It will mean we see something a year from now if they go for it.
It is what it is.
BejaProphet wrote: »jeez, will zos ever listen?
how many more replies and votes does this thread need until they take notice?
They won’t ignore this thread. They may decide against doing it for this or that reason, but they will definitely ask the question internally.
Too many people have voted and the results were too dramatically lop sided. They have noticed. Just don’t expect that to mean a comment in this thread. It will mean we see something a year from now if they go for it.
It is what it is.
Tell that to spell crafting, 1h and rune, overland vet mode, spears, etc.