My biggest gripe about Dark Heart (Story in Group DLC)

max_only · January 2020

MerguezMan wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

What does it matter if other people get story mode? Why are you arguing against it? How does it effect you if other people run something solo?

It is a first step in the wrong direction for development effort.

Let's say the next quarter will be about rebalancing the game to make all dungeons and trials soloable.
Then people will ask for loot in those versions (yeah, why not ?).
Then people will ask for veteran version of those (Hey, vMA exists).
Then...

But in the meantime, this also means you have to rebalance multiplayer pve, and pvp side of things.

And all those efforts can't go into server optimization for multiplayer, because you just multiplied the number of solo instances supported by server...

We know development effort is something we can only have in limited quantities.
Do you really think pushing it towards solo content, instead of multiplayer content, is a good idea ?
Considering TES 6 will arrive sooner or later, and bring away those solo players, leaving only those here for multiplayer ?

Unless you are personally Zos’ business manager there is no way to know or judge what they actually put effort into/should put effort into developing.

They put effort into developing an antiquities system no one ever asked for. They put effort into super bowl commercials. They put effort into what ever they want. Obviously they don’t “want”, for whatever reason, to put effort into Cyrodiil so who are we to say “no you can’t have it because mommy isn’t paying enough attention to me”

So other than you’re speculation that they will possibly waste development hours (which they do all the time) what reason does anyone have against a no rewards story mode?

Olith · January 2020

frozzzen101 wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

I personally would like to know who the "They" is they referred to in the clip that was asking for more story integration.
I've never seen a single post on these forums about wanting more story integration for group dungeons. Every post I've seen on the subject has been to the contrary.

Here, have one then.

Did you ever stop to consider that there are people who are enjoying DLC dungeon stories and in a big way because of difficulty attached to them? That there are people that enjoyed story of March of Sacrifices because it was genuinely hard first time and it actually felt like something Hircine might drag you trough? That there are people who enjoyed something like Fang Lair because last boss was so tough when it first came out that there was actual threat associated with it? Unlike Manimarco - the greatest necromancer ever etc etc etc. Can't take that *** seriously.

You know, I'm tired of posts like yours demanding that what little of enjoyable game content comes out be lowered to roleplayer level. Honestly, I can't fully enjoy overland content because it's so easy that most of the bosses die before they even get their dialogue out and die before I finish full rotation. I can't get immersed in story if I know that my base hp regen will outheal anything mobs can throw at me, so only place where I can experience decent story is in difficult content. I know all stock responses, and you know what? I couldn't care less about any of them. You also probably know all the stock responses I might tell you. Are you with a straight face telling me that you cannot organize a group for story run for two normal dungeons to get the full story in 3 months before chapter comes out? Seriously?

I'm sorry, but you got this completely wrong. Nobody is talking about stripping every dungeon of its story and lore, that would be ridiculous. Honestly I'm tired of posts like yours that make up things nobody ever said and then complain about it.

Dungeons had story and lore to them from the very start, and that's a great thing of course. Nobody would "demand" to get rid of that. In the video, it's about that "year long story arch", introduced for the first time with Elsweyr, that those fictitious players are supposedly asking for to be "even more integrated" with group dungeons because they liked it so much last year. That's a different thing. Personally I've never seen a single post asking for this. I think that statement is a blatant lie.

I understand that there are groups/guilds that like the story in dungeons as much as everybody else. The thing here is, however, that ZOS is once again forcing a lot of players to make a choice for the whole year. I don't play dungeons which I can't solo, and that's my decision and I'm fine with it. Not everything in this game can be for every player. But when they claim that lots of players were asking for story content to be put "even more" behind artificial barriers, I feel they are steering in the wrong direction. I can now decide to play it the way they want me to, for whatever reason, and probably not have a lot of fun while doing so, or to leave out relevant parts of the main story for the year. I know what I'm going to do, but I'm certainly not happy about it.

idk · January 2020

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

So your argument that you are incapable of enjoying the story in 4 man dungeons even when you are in a group specifically formed with like minded players interested in the story seems to be a personal issue., Stories in group dungeons is a common element of MMORPG design and you are literally saying you cannot get immersed in the game when grouped with others in a very absolute statement. It is the very essence of D&D with is pretty much the parent of all of these games.

D&D is different (as a board game). People have to focus on the game and the story in order to imagine it together. People in a D&D game don't talk about their mother-in-law.

1. You clearly missed the point.
2. You suggested you are easily able to put together a group to enjoy the story. The same people who are dumb enough to talk about mother-in-law stories when grouped with the focus of enjoying the story are going to tell the same stupid stories during D&D. I suggest grouping with brighter people.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

So your argument that you are incapable of enjoying the story in 4 man dungeons even when you are in a group specifically formed with like minded players interested in the story seems to be a personal issue., Stories in group dungeons is a common element of MMORPG design and you are literally saying you cannot get immersed in the game when grouped with others in a very absolute statement. It is the very essence of D&D with is pretty much the parent of all of these games.

The combined efforts of some people here to tell me (and a few others) that we shouldn't be here at all are amazing. You're telling what we should and should not enjoy, should and should not like, should and should not require, just because the game is stamped "MMO" .. which it actually isn't, Firor having himself described it a "online RPG" rather than "MMORPG".
You're still in full denial that half of this game's population comes from single-player TES games and wouldn't even have touched ESO if not for Skyrim and its predecessors.

First, I did not tell you that you should or should not anything. You are just spinning nonsense to distract from the fact that it is easy to form a story minded group for a dungeon yet you choose players who discuss dumb mother-in-law stories.

BTW, Funny comment you attributed to Firor. Besides the fact that Zos devs specifically said this is an MMO based in the TES world before the game launched I am sure there is a context to the comment you mention that you are leaving out.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

So your argument that you are incapable of enjoying the story in 4 man dungeons even when you are in a group specifically formed with like minded players interested in the story seems to be a personal issue., Stories in group dungeons is a common element of MMORPG design and you are literally saying you cannot get immersed in the game when grouped with others in a very absolute statement. It is the very essence of D&D with is pretty much the parent of all of these games.

Back to dungeon stories : up to Elsweyr and the "year of the dragons", all dungeons had a stand-alone story. I didn't get any of them, not a single one, in spite of having run these dungeons a million times. It doesn't matter since they are stand-alone. stories. But if they're linked to the general overland story, then it's different. We're gonna miss a piece of the story at some stage.

This make sense after reading the rest. Again, grouping with a fool who is talks about their mother-in-law while in a group specifically formed to enjoy the story of the dungeon without telling them to shut up or get out does put this comment into context.

Though I will say, the stories in the older dungeons were pretty limited which makes the current design a big improvement.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

So your argument that you are incapable of enjoying the story in 4 man dungeons even when you are in a group specifically formed with like minded players interested in the story seems to be a personal issue., Stories in group dungeons is a common element of MMORPG design and you are literally saying you cannot get immersed in the game when grouped with others in a very absolute statement. It is the very essence of D&D with is pretty much the parent of all of these games.

But what the hell am I talking to you about ? All you care for is that ESO fits the "MMORPG" cookie cutter model and anyone wishing for something to be different has a "personal issue". Even if that little something takes nothing away from you at all.

I pointed out the fallacy of your previous comment is probably why you replied. Much like I did here though you did help by pointing out you have put together bad groups before. That is notably a major flaw with your previous experience so I suggest being more careful forming the groups this year. Make sure they are very aware of the purpose of the group.

Also, do not pretend to tell me what I care about in an attempt to be combative. Bad attempt as I have merely pointed out the fallacy of your personal argument.

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2020

idk wrote: »

entire snip

Okay. You're the kind of person who'd change friends rather than games.
I admit to be the opposite.
Different values.
A friendly "hint" though : people are not tools, but they're more valuable than tools.

Elsonso · January 2020

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

So your argument that you are incapable of enjoying the story in 4 man dungeons even when you are in a group specifically formed with like minded players interested in the story seems to be a personal issue., Stories in group dungeons is a common element of MMORPG design and you are literally saying you cannot get immersed in the game when grouped with others in a very absolute statement. It is the very essence of D&D with is pretty much the parent of all of these games.

D&D is different (as a board game). People have to focus on the game and the story in order to imagine it together. People in a D&D game don't talk about their mother-in-law.

🤔

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Back to dungeon stories : up to Elsweyr and the "year of the dragons", all dungeons had a stand-alone story. I didn't get any of them, not a single one, in spite of having run these dungeons a million times. It doesn't matter since they are stand-alone. stories. But if they're linked to the general overland story, then it's different. We're gonna miss a piece of the story at some stage.

Do you think ZOS is clueless here? You are writing like they have no idea. They know people are not going to run the dungeon. They know people are not going to buy the DLC. They know that the people who run the dungeon might miss out on parts of the story because they got busy doing the dungeon. I am expecting that they are going to make it so you are not missing the story. The only thing you might miss is being there when it happens.

max_only wrote: »

They put effort into developing an antiquities system no one ever asked for.

People keep saying that like it is some sort of universal truth.

I suppose it is like saying "no one orders Big Macs at McDonalds". Hmm. More of a conversation starter, than an actual fact. I get it. Nevermind. Back to your story.

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

Do you think ZOS is clueless here? You are writing like they have no idea. They know people are not going to run the dungeon. They know people are not going to buy the DLC. They know that the people who run the dungeon might miss out on parts of the story because they got busy doing the dungeon. I am expecting that they are going to make it so you are not missing the story. The only thing you might miss is being there when it happens.

You're being very optimistic here and I can't blame that.
I don't know.
I ran the four "year of the dragon" dungeons (probably not more than two or three times each). Of course I missed all the story because I was in a group, so I can't tell what was there and what wasn't. But I can't shake the feeling I've "missed" something - because they were so loud at announcing that all the DLC would be tied to one another. I hope you're right though.

idk · January 2020

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

entire snip

Okay. You're the kind of person who'd change friends rather than games.
I admit to be the opposite.
Different values.

You specifically stated "I can find a group with people also wishing to go slow and enjoy the story any time."

Then you said above that they talk about nonsense instead of focusing on the group. There are your words in contradiction. Not mine.

LOL, no. I would have reminded them of the purpose of the group and pointed out they are distracting us from our goal and would be happy to discuss whatever bothers them after the dungeon.

That seems to be the wise course of action, especially if I am the one who took the lead to form the group for the explicit purpose of enjoying the dungeon story. It is very common, even with those who I raid with, that we take time to enjoy the story when someone has not seen the dungeon before. It is called being courteous.

So thank for the false implication

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2020

idk wrote: »

entire snip

That's simply called a different feeling for immersion.
I understand that the word "different" is somehow foreign to you.
Now I'd be very grateful if you'd stop replying to me, because our back & forth is of no interest to anyone and will attract the moderation at some stage. I seldomly block people but I'll end up having to do that with you.

idk · January 2020

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

entire snip

That's simply called a different feeling for immersion.
I understand that the word "different" is somehow foreign to you.
Now I'd be very grateful if you'd stop replying to me, because our back & forth is of no interest to anyone and will attract the moderation at some stage. I seldomly block people but I'll end up having to do that with you.

So yes, I do suggest you block me if you cannot resist replying as you have here. I agree with you that resorting to comments that "difference" is foreign to me and falsely stating I am the type of person who changes friends instead of games vs meaningful comments as I have provided is driving the conversation towards actions by Zos.

Contaminate · January 2020

The thread should be locked anyway

It’s the same old baseless complaints as usual. Same as saying “I want arena weapons from normal mode”, “give me PvE Imperial City”, and “let me buy combat upgrades”

Olith · January 2020

idk wrote: »

TokenIntellect wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

idk wrote: »

First off OP is a day late and a dollar short. Even the clip OP presented says Zos did this last year as well.

Nope, I fussed about this last year as well and the clip roughly says "last year they liked it and They wanted the story to be even more integrated and we did that and each of the DLCs that we do are all very tied, directly to the story line"

And it seems to have worked very well with very little criticism about it during the year.

I do like how you edited out the rest as it was probably inconvenient to address those two points. No problem

Really, IDK?

As I recall, when they announced the intention to hide story behind dungeon content with the "Year of the Dragon" there were a number of threads asking for ZOS to either change their minds about that and/or add a story mode.

The reason why the OP isn't "a day late and a dollar short" is precisely because the complaint is still relevant. It is exactly the type of substantive critique that ZOS actually asks for: point out what's wrong and offer a potential solution. Just because you like it the way it is doesn't mean other people do or that ZOS is correct in how they're reading the situation.

The truth? A story mode makes more of the content accessible to more people. More people playing more of the time means more money. Even if it only adds a few minutes per week per person that adds up. If ZOS wants people to play as they like, they should actually let people play the way they (the people and not the devs) like.

And those threads died fast.

You mean like this one?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453375/solo-dungeon-mode-please

Olith · January 2020

Contaminate wrote: »

The thread should be locked anyway

It’s the same old baseless complaints as usual. Same as saying “I want arena weapons from normal mode”, “give me PvE Imperial City”, and “let me buy combat upgrades”

People have said, repeatedly, that they don't want the same rewards as for a proper run with a group. Lock the thread because you disagree with their arguments? Yeah, sure.

Linaleah · January 2020

Contaminate wrote: »

The thread should be locked anyway

It’s the same old baseless complaints as usual. Same as saying “I want arena weapons from normal mode”, “give me PvE Imperial City”, and “let me buy combat upgrades”

2 of those are entirely baseless just becasue you do not agree with them and a third one is a strawman you just made up on a spot, but off I go i guess...

and to reiterate. this is NOT about removing story from dungeons and its NOT about attack on skill it takes to clear those dungeons or making gear from them easier to get. its about making much advertised 1 year of connected story - entirely soloable, not only half way soloable.

and this actualy reminded me of something. there was one point where SWTOR did something in a very, fantastic, way. shadow of Revan expansion story - culminated in an operation (trial) where you had to confront Revan. except... when you got to that point of the story that was solo all the way leading up to that (including flashpoints - SWTOR has solo story flashpoint and it works out GREAT, because they are not what you farm for gear or anything like that, but they do allow people to see the story at their own pace so that when you go in with a group, you are not dragging it behind, waiting for you) - you get a choice. you can either do an operation, aka take a small group of operatives in directly. or.. you can rally the troops to help you storm the castle so to speak. essentially you just do a bunch of dailies until troops are rallied. and then you confront Revan anyways, but in a differently designed encounter from an operation. either you are solo and grouped? you get to finish the story and THAT... is gosh darn brilliant compromise and before you all go "too much resources, blah blah blah" - its a potential compromise that may even be easier to implement since you can just use existing content and have fewer fights to balance for solo purposes and NO one gets left out.

karekiz · January 2020

Contaminate wrote: »

The thread should be locked anyway

It’s the same old baseless complaints as usual. Same as saying “I want arena weapons from normal mode”, “give me PvE Imperial City”, and “let me buy combat upgrades”

But you do get Arena weapons from Normal mode now. BRP, which is harder than DSA does indeed drop them. Also, guess what? AS also drops Arena weapons for Normal, way back in CWC. The only two that don't are the two easier of the arena's. They just made a Perfected version, but you still get whatever Set bonus. I wouldn't mind a Perfected VMA destro staff if normal gets the old one. That would make vet even better....

As for the story locked behind dungeons.

Guess what? Everything should include the Story. Big Shocker. Even PvP. That would make the world feel like.

You know. A connected world.

max_only · January 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

So your argument that you are incapable of enjoying the story in 4 man dungeons even when you are in a group specifically formed with like minded players interested in the story seems to be a personal issue., Stories in group dungeons is a common element of MMORPG design and you are literally saying you cannot get immersed in the game when grouped with others in a very absolute statement. It is the very essence of D&D with is pretty much the parent of all of these games.

D&D is different (as a board game). People have to focus on the game and the story in order to imagine it together. People in a D&D game don't talk about their mother-in-law.

🤔

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Back to dungeon stories : up to Elsweyr and the "year of the dragons", all dungeons had a stand-alone story. I didn't get any of them, not a single one, in spite of having run these dungeons a million times. It doesn't matter since they are stand-alone. stories. But if they're linked to the general overland story, then it's different. We're gonna miss a piece of the story at some stage.

Do you think ZOS is clueless here? You are writing like they have no idea. They know people are not going to run the dungeon. They know people are not going to buy the DLC. They know that the people who run the dungeon might miss out on parts of the story because they got busy doing the dungeon. I am expecting that they are going to make it so you are not missing the story. The only thing you might miss is being there when it happens.

max_only wrote: »

They put effort into developing an antiquities system no one ever asked for.

People keep saying that like it is some sort of universal truth. I suppose it is like saying "no one orders Big Macs at McDonalds". Hmm. More of a conversation starter, than an actual fact. I get it. Nevermind. Back to your story.

You’re right. “No one” is a misstatement. I should have said, “you can count on 1 hand the number of people who wanted Antiquities”. After doing a search on these forums all the way back to September 2014 I found this specifically suggested uniquely by: Shadowsscout, Grumlins, Florial, and themadhatter91.

You’ve won! Confetti!!

Anyway, as I was saying. Zos will spend their development time how ever they want, it’s not up to us to make their schedule. Other than “my concern is more important and needs more attention” what good reason is there for other people to deny no rewards Story mode?

NupidStoob · January 2020

Let's play a multiplayer game and complain it's not solo. To anyone who thinks like that: sounds like a you problem.

To the people who complain that nobody asked for antiquities: True. People have not specifically asked for that, but people have asked for other content to do besides what we currently have in the game.

Elsonso · January 2020

max_only wrote: »

You’re right. “No one” is a misstatement. I should have said, “you can count on 1 hand the number of people who wanted Antiquities”. After doing a search on these forums all the way back to September 2014 I found this specifically suggested uniquely by: Shadowsscout, Grumlins, Florial, and themadhatter91.

What might interest you is that I know people who have suggested it, and none of them are in that list.

idk · January 2020

Olith wrote: »

idk wrote: »

TokenIntellect wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

idk wrote: »

First off OP is a day late and a dollar short. Even the clip OP presented says Zos did this last year as well.

Nope, I fussed about this last year as well and the clip roughly says "last year they liked it and They wanted the story to be even more integrated and we did that and each of the DLCs that we do are all very tied, directly to the story line"

And it seems to have worked very well with very little criticism about it during the year.

I do like how you edited out the rest as it was probably inconvenient to address those two points. No problem

Really, IDK?

As I recall, when they announced the intention to hide story behind dungeon content with the "Year of the Dragon" there were a number of threads asking for ZOS to either change their minds about that and/or add a story mode.

The reason why the OP isn't "a day late and a dollar short" is precisely because the complaint is still relevant. It is exactly the type of substantive critique that ZOS actually asks for: point out what's wrong and offer a potential solution. Just because you like it the way it is doesn't mean other people do or that ZOS is correct in how they're reading the situation.

The truth? A story mode makes more of the content accessible to more people. More people playing more of the time means more money. Even if it only adds a few minutes per week per person that adds up. If ZOS wants people to play as they like, they should actually let people play the way they (the people and not the devs) like.

And those threads died fast.

You mean like this one?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453375/solo-dungeon-mode-please

As the title indicates the focus of that is a solo story mode version to which I really do not object to.

However, if you had bothered to read the OP of this thread they stating that they "do not understand why development time is wasted on placing meaningful story content inside of a group dungeon." The OP also falsely implies that those of us that like dungeons would probabaly prefer Zos make a third dungeon and suggests we do not care about the story. Clearly speaking about something they know nothing about. The OP does not mention a request for a solo version of the dungeon in the OP.

A poster named code provided what is probably the best worded retort. To paraphrase the first part as best as I can, every dungeon has a story and that it is probably a better use of resources to continue with the story that is already being laid out vs creating a brand new one. I linked their comment in case you would like to read the rest of their well though response.

Olith · January 2020

idk wrote: »

Olith wrote: »

idk wrote: »

TokenIntellect wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

idk wrote: »

First off OP is a day late and a dollar short. Even the clip OP presented says Zos did this last year as well.

Nope, I fussed about this last year as well and the clip roughly says "last year they liked it and They wanted the story to be even more integrated and we did that and each of the DLCs that we do are all very tied, directly to the story line"

And it seems to have worked very well with very little criticism about it during the year.

I do like how you edited out the rest as it was probably inconvenient to address those two points. No problem

Really, IDK?

As I recall, when they announced the intention to hide story behind dungeon content with the "Year of the Dragon" there were a number of threads asking for ZOS to either change their minds about that and/or add a story mode.

The reason why the OP isn't "a day late and a dollar short" is precisely because the complaint is still relevant. It is exactly the type of substantive critique that ZOS actually asks for: point out what's wrong and offer a potential solution. Just because you like it the way it is doesn't mean other people do or that ZOS is correct in how they're reading the situation.

The truth? A story mode makes more of the content accessible to more people. More people playing more of the time means more money. Even if it only adds a few minutes per week per person that adds up. If ZOS wants people to play as they like, they should actually let people play the way they (the people and not the devs) like.

And those threads died fast.

You mean like this one?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453375/solo-dungeon-mode-please

As the title indicates the focus of that is a solo story mode version to which I really do not object to.

However, if you had bothered to read the OP of this thread they stating that they "do not understand why development time is wasted on placing meaningful story content inside of a group dungeon." The OP also falsely implies that those of us that like dungeons would probabaly prefer Zos make a third dungeon and suggests we do not care about the story. Clearly speaking about something they know nothing about. The OP does not mention a request for a solo version of the dungeon in the OP.

A poster named code provided what is probably the best worded retort. To paraphrase the first part as best as I can, every dungeon has a story and that it is probably a better use of resources to continue with the story that is already being laid out vs creating a brand new one. I linked their comment in case you would like to read the rest of their well though response.

I "bothered to" read it all the first time I went through the thread, thank you very much. Your statement about threads dying fast was a reply not to the OP but to this: "As I recall, when they announced the intention to hide story behind dungeon content with the "Year of the Dragon" there were a number of threads asking for ZOS to either change their minds about that and/or add a story mode." And the video in the OP is clearly about that very intention: hiding parts of the main story for the whole year inside of dlc dungeons, where many players won't give a flying F and many other players will never come to experience it.

mague · January 2020

Casdha wrote: »

Blaqk_EyeD wrote: »

There are several guilds that do group dungeons and take the time to explore the lore inside. Pugs are hit and miss to begin with. More bland, story lacking, quick run through dungeons are not the answer.

Yes I know, I belong to what I consider to be one of the better ones that has been here since launch but due to my play schedule I'm rarely on at a convenient time to join them.

I would be happy if they would just make a difficulty level (or set the level on normal) to one that compares with nMA or Starter level dungeons without the group checks. It would still be challenging for most solo players and still hard enough for newb group players. I also wouldn't scoff at a Story mode without the rewards as it still wouldn't affect the content for those who currently do it.

This. Add a story mode the difficulty of Fungal or Banished. Soloable and fun as duo.

Olith · January 2020

NupidStoob wrote: »

Let's play a multiplayer game and complain it's not solo. To anyone who thinks like that: sounds like a you problem.

It's about being not soloable. In a game where most of the main questline is solo only.

Casdha · January 2020

idk wrote: »

However, if you had bothered to read the OP of this thread they stating that they "do not understand why development time is wasted on placing meaningful story content inside of a group dungeon."

I've already corrected and expanded on this statement once

idk wrote: »

The OP also falsely implies that those of us that like dungeons would probabaly prefer Zos make a third dungeon and suggests we do not care about the story. Clearly speaking about something they know nothing about.

Be careful using the term "us". I'm sure not every group player has the exact same opinion as you do. Also, using that in my post was meant to be more of an example . It was also to point out that so many folks find it hard to do story content in a group because rest of the group just wants to get to the prize at the end. If that is the case it is easy to perceive that as they don't care about the story content (be it true or not). Me personally, I listen to every line of dialog and I click every option available before I leave an NPC. I love the voice acting in this game and don't want to miss a second of it (when I play).

idk wrote: »

The OP does not mention a request for a solo version of the dungeon in the OP.

I'm glad you stated in the OP because you are correct, however I have said in this thread and many others that I would prefer Normal Group Dungeons be the same difficulty as Starter dungeons and I wouldn't scoff if they added an outright story mode for the purposes of doing Group Dungeons Solo.

idk · January 2020

Olith wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Olith wrote: »

idk wrote: »

TokenIntellect wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

idk wrote: »

First off OP is a day late and a dollar short. Even the clip OP presented says Zos did this last year as well.

Nope, I fussed about this last year as well and the clip roughly says "last year they liked it and They wanted the story to be even more integrated and we did that and each of the DLCs that we do are all very tied, directly to the story line"

And it seems to have worked very well with very little criticism about it during the year.

I do like how you edited out the rest as it was probably inconvenient to address those two points. No problem

Really, IDK?

As I recall, when they announced the intention to hide story behind dungeon content with the "Year of the Dragon" there were a number of threads asking for ZOS to either change their minds about that and/or add a story mode.

The reason why the OP isn't "a day late and a dollar short" is precisely because the complaint is still relevant. It is exactly the type of substantive critique that ZOS actually asks for: point out what's wrong and offer a potential solution. Just because you like it the way it is doesn't mean other people do or that ZOS is correct in how they're reading the situation.

The truth? A story mode makes more of the content accessible to more people. More people playing more of the time means more money. Even if it only adds a few minutes per week per person that adds up. If ZOS wants people to play as they like, they should actually let people play the way they (the people and not the devs) like.

And those threads died fast.

You mean like this one?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453375/solo-dungeon-mode-please

As the title indicates the focus of that is a solo story mode version to which I really do not object to.

However, if you had bothered to read the OP of this thread they stating that they "do not understand why development time is wasted on placing meaningful story content inside of a group dungeon." The OP also falsely implies that those of us that like dungeons would probabaly prefer Zos make a third dungeon and suggests we do not care about the story. Clearly speaking about something they know nothing about. The OP does not mention a request for a solo version of the dungeon in the OP.

A poster named code provided what is probably the best worded retort. To paraphrase the first part as best as I can, every dungeon has a story and that it is probably a better use of resources to continue with the story that is already being laid out vs creating a brand new one. I linked their comment in case you would like to read the rest of their well though response.

I "bothered to" read it all the first time I went through the thread, thank you very much. Your statement about threads dying fast was a reply not to the OP but to this: "As I recall, when they announced the intention to hide story behind dungeon content with the "Year of the Dragon" there were a number of threads asking for ZOS to either change their minds about that and/or add a story mode." And the video in the OP is clearly about that very intention: hiding parts of the main story for the whole year inside of dlc dungeons, where many players won't give a flying F and many other players will never come to experience it.

Pretty much most of the threads have died fast. Cherry picking one thread or even if you posted a few does not disprove my statement. You merely proved one thread lased a bit of time. Thank you very much.

Magenpie · January 2020

I would love a story mode for dungeons, and I can't see why it would impact negatively on players who run dungeons on normal or higher. And I'd be very happy to get no loot of import if it meant I got to see the story. And if that bothers other players, maybe it could be a solo-once-per-character thing?

I dip in and out of ESO, I don't have a guild, but when I play, I sub and I buy the chapters. I am much less motivated to play the game if there are barriers to getting me into the story if I've been away, and I'd be much more likely to sub regularly if I could jump back in and get caught up and invested in the story as fully and as quickly as possible. And to feel included in the game world easily and quickly.

People play MMOs in a variety of different ways, always have, and I'm all for offering everyone the fullest game experience possible. You want as many people spending money on ESO as possible to keep the game alive and breathing, yes? Well that means catering to all play styles.

I really can't see how a dungeon story-mode would damage the game for people who want to run them at a higher difficulty.

zShepplin · January 2020

Casdha wrote: »

First I tried to keep this clip under Fair Use rules but I needed to be able to point out what I'm talking about for those who don't watch the 2 hour stream recording.

I do not understand why development time is wasted on placing meaningful story content inside of a group dungeon. I'm sure those who like group dungeons would rather those resources be spent on a 3rd dungeon rather than something they don't care about. I also think folks who are here for the main story don't like dealing with others while trying to experience it.
Below is a clip that is the crux of my problem with the direction of this franchise.

https://youtu.be/GFKc18GBMfA

The ONLY downside to locking lore in dungeons is the up tick in pants on head DPS who struggle to break 10k entering the queue. Thankfully remove from party is an option.

AlnilamE · January 2020

Linaleah wrote: »

at least stories in trials are self contained. I still wish I could take more time to explore and to listen, but finding a trials group that is willing to hang around while you talk to every npc (and they actualy have quite a bit to say in trials as well) - can be even harder then finding 3 other people to do this in a dungeon.

before we had self contained stories though. now... they are part of the larger narrative and THAT.. is something that IMO requires some changes.

I'm going to disagree that trials are self-contained. The Craglorn trials relate directly to the Craglorn quest line. They are the consequence of the Celestials being driven mad by the Serpent.

Honestly, the whole "the dungeons are part of the story" is really just PR talk.

They are not more connected to the story than the Imperial City Dungeons are tied to Imperial City, or than Banished Cells I and II are tied to the story of Auridon (which they are, but there was no PR hype on that so people don't realize it)

max_only · January 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

You’re right. “No one” is a misstatement. I should have said, “you can count on 1 hand the number of people who wanted Antiquities”. After doing a search on these forums all the way back to September 2014 I found this specifically suggested uniquely by: Shadowsscout, Grumlins, Florial, and themadhatter91.

What might interest you is that I know people who have suggested it, and none of them are in that list.

Sure, Jan.
A fiancee in Canada suggested it too?

Casdha · January 2020

zShepplin wrote: »

The ONLY downside to locking lore in dungeons is the up tick in pants on head DPS who struggle to break 10k entering the queue. Thankfully remove from party is an option.

And this is a perfect example of why this topic keep coming up in threads,,,,, Thank You

Casdha · January 2020

AlnilamE wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

at least stories in trials are self contained. I still wish I could take more time to explore and to listen, but finding a trials group that is willing to hang around while you talk to every npc (and they actualy have quite a bit to say in trials as well) - can be even harder then finding 3 other people to do this in a dungeon.

before we had self contained stories though. now... they are part of the larger narrative and THAT.. is something that IMO requires some changes.

I'm going to disagree that trials are self-contained. The Craglorn trials relate directly to the Craglorn quest line. They are the consequence of the Celestials being driven mad by the Serpent.

Honestly, the whole "the dungeons are part of the story" is really just PR talk.

They are not more connected to the story than the Imperial City Dungeons are tied to Imperial City, or than Banished Cells I and II are tied to the story of Auridon (which they are, but there was no PR hype on that so people don't realize it)

Hi @AlnilamE

I think this also points out something else, the fact that someone could have no clue that the Group Content / Trials are tied to the areas they are in should say all that needs to be said on this subject,,,, at least as far as where I'm coming from.

To everyone else who is afraid to find folks to group with since this will probably never be fixed, this is a good example of how I can discuss something with a player and we still get along fine when we actually get to run something together in game,,,,, all be it, it is on rare occasions. (edit: that we are in game at the same time) Thanks AlnilamE

MrGhosty · January 2020

Ksariyu wrote: »

100% agree. It's not that I wish they'd take stories out of dungeons entirely (though I wouldn't be opposed), just don't connect them so heavily to the overland stories we get in Chapter updates. If I have to buy an overpriced DLC containing a whopping two dungeons that I'll do once, then an overpriced Chapter for the new zone I'll explore once, then another overpriced DLC for two more one-trip dungeons, and then another overpriced DLC for a worse version of the chapter. . . . I'm just gonna skip all of it and play another game that doesn't require a year and $100 to finish. Absolute joke of a company right now, but when Pete Hines is supporting the marketing department, we know what to expect.

frozzzen101 wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

I never demanded anything, I stated what I didn't like about the direction of the game and offered suggestions based on opinions I've seen for a compromise. I've never suggested that anything that exists be taken out or changed. I have suggested other options be added.

Sure I'm all up for options, but it just won't happen. It would require a lot of resources to do this properly. Solo story mode for dungeons and trials? Unlikely. Veteran overland? Unlikely. So we are in same boat really. We cannot experience content in the fashion we'd like to.

As for your "yes", quite frankly you aren't even trying. I can call in people and make group to do quest run of dungeon any weekend and if people are online and up for it, even weekdays. That you cannot do 40 minutes of content in 100 days is plain bs and if you won't spare 1% of effort to get it done then you deserve to miss on a story. It's not that you can't do it, it's that you don't want to do it.

See above regarding "resources." Not scamming your playerbase might seem resource-intensive, but it's really just brain power.
Regarding grouping - congrats. I'm glad you've made enough friends so far to have no trouble finding premades. That said, some of us have to spend hours just getting s**t-tier DPS to farm gear with, never mind an actual enjoyable group to do story content. Disregard the fact that the game and its community actively discourage grouping outside of trials, it's still absurd how many hoops you have to jump through to actually enjoy any of the content in this game.

You don't need to buy the dlc, especially if you're only interested in running each dungeon once, just sub for a month and fill out your craft bag then run the two dungeons and unsub.

I think the biggest problem is that there are two levels of "truth" in how zos is marketing this interconnected story. While all the past years content were technically tied together it's actual content was marginal at best. I didn't play scalebreaker dungeons (I think that was the dlc prior to elsweyr) and went into Elsweyr with the same amount of story knowledge that people who completed the dungeons did. As such I view the dungeon content as supplemental as the information gained is not critical to understanding the larger story as a whole.

As for a story mode to all the dungeons? I would love to see that implemented so long as it wouldn't impact long term development of new stories and content.

I do think they're aiming to find ways to keep people in the dungeon for longer by introducing secrets and things to search for. That might well slow some groups down a bit, but even with that potential lore I will eat my hat if it isn't more supplemental information that just enhances what you already know about the story. That style of lore makes repeat playthroughs more interesting. For example, if you were to play through all of elsweyr and then replay the prologue quest you actually get more out of it than simply playing chronologically. I think setting up their lore dumps this way also remains true to the spirit of past Elder Scrolls titles. You could stumble into a dungeon/cave and it might have some bearing on a story you haven't experienced yet, when you end up going back you see more and it enhances the story you already know.

If any of you solos are playing on PCNA feel free to give me a shout here and we can coordinate a meetup to run some dungeons, I always have characters that need the skill points and I don't mind taking the time to look around.