My biggest gripe about Dark Heart (Story in Group DLC)

Lady_Linux

Casdha wrote: »

snoozy wrote: »

i wish they would at least give a statement on it. the community has been asking for ages.
even if they say "not gonna happen" at least we get a reaction.
but the choose to continue ignoring us apparently

I personally would like to know who the "They" is they referred to in the clip that was asking for more story integration.
I've never seen a single post on these forums about wanting more story integration for group dungeons. Every post I've seen on the subject has been to the contrary.

they mail out many surveys that asked for opinions of people from those who may not be using the forums. Go figure. Pop forum opinion doesnt rule the day after all. Thanks for confirming that.

Lady_Linux

Tandor wrote: »

I think it's fair enough that the story is split between different playstyles. That said, be grateful that they don't put half of it in Cyrodiil.

My main gripe with the dungeons is that they comprise two-thirds of the DLCs each year (plus perhaps a trial in the chapter), and don't include any other content. A delve or two in each dungeon DLC, for example, would open them up to a great many more players - and would therefore, I imagine, be a significant commercial boost from a marketing point of view. It would surely be a far more effective way of boosting dungeon DLC sales than locking a story behind them. I doubt that most players are even interested in the overall story, let alone sufficiently interested to want to play through group content if that otherwise doesn't appeal to them.

Tandor wrote: »

I think it's fair enough that the story is split between different playstyles. That said, be grateful that they don't put half of it in Cyrodiil.

My main gripe with the dungeons is that they comprise two-thirds of the DLCs each year (plus perhaps a trial in the chapter), and don't include any other content. A delve or two in each dungeon DLC, for example, would open them up to a great many more players - and would therefore, I imagine, be a significant commercial boost from a marketing point of view. It would surely be a far more effective way of boosting dungeon DLC sales than locking a story behind them. I doubt that most players are even interested in the overall story, let alone sufficiently interested to want to play through group content if that otherwise doesn't appeal to them.

the new relic hunting may well have a lot of content in cry-o-pickle...

Iccotak

VaranisArano wrote: »

My gripe is that by tying the year-long story to the Q1 dungeon DLCs even tangentially, ZOS makes it impossible for new players who start in the newest Chapter to do the story in chronological order.

Exactly - at this point or sometime in 2021 the story order needs to be adressed

Yes technically you can do any of the content in any order you want BUT the game should clearly show release order & Story arcs

Elsonso

.

Casdha wrote: »

On a side note, did anyone else wonder who actually plays DLC group dungeons in first person like they showed in the reveal clips?

And folks say they aren't marketing to Solo TES players.

My thinking: They do that so people focus on the content, not the character doing the content.

BaiterOfZergs

I think story should be removed from dungeons or also offered elsewhere. The devs are encouraging new players to hop right in to enjoy the story but putting story in dungeons kind of contradicts that.

Banana

I haven't done a group DLC dungeon yet. I'm not going to lose any sleep over missing any story in this one also. Still waiting on that solo option that isn't just bung it on normal.

Iccotak

Um I actually like the new dungeon formula - bit of a dungeon nut

EDIT: To clarify I like that Vet players have engaging content for the year long story because the story zones are clearly more geared for Solo & Beginning players.

idk

• First off OP is a day late and a dollar short. Even the clip OP presented says Zos did this last year as well.
• Second, there is a story behind every dungeon and trial. All of that is locked behind group content.
• Third, it makes sense to tie dungeons into a greater story as they seem more inclusive to the game vs out there on their own.

All are very solid reasons for Zos to incorporate the story from the zones into the dungeons and make a more cohesive narrative. While I can understand if OP is adverse to playing with others but the argument they are trying to make is very weak and there is a better point they could have attempted to make.

Klad

If this becomes a practice they are going to lose people....

Many people left WoW because the story was gated behind a raid.

I'm in a guild so it's no sweat off my nose...but this is a dumb decision ZoS

Casdha

idk wrote: »

• First off OP is a day late and a dollar short. Even the clip OP presented says Zos did this last year as well.

Nope, I fussed about this last year as well and the clip roughly says "last year they liked it and They wanted the story to be even more integrated and we did that and each of the DLCs that we do are all very tied, directly to the story line"

Kahnak

Nerouyn wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

I do not understand why development time is wasted on placing meaningful story content inside of a group dungeon.

I do understand. And it's very easy to explain.

ESO dungeons and trials suck. Hard.

ZO keep trying different ways to "encourage" players to do them because the whole point of an MMO is to play with others and if that's actually fun then more people want to play and the game earns more money.

But rather than making group content fun, ZO does things like adding dungeons and trials to holiday events, like the Witches Festival. Or taking one of things it does well - story - and splitting that story across the base game and dungeons to force people into content they don't enjoy.

You can't actually force players into this content though. They also have the option to ignore it - Witches Festival is dead to me now - or not play. I don't presently take ESO very seriously and even then almost entirely for solo content.

I think their core mistake was copying the immensely successful at launch GW2. But the thing is, what made GW2 an immense success wasn't its group content. It was the lack of subscription and simple, fun open world gameplay. GW2 explicitly did away with trinity gameplay and in doing so, turned end-game group content into mindless DPS-fests. Plus rolling out red circles.

Ugggh.

GW2 has never recovered from that. Big financial success initially but they couldn't maintain it, which you can see with downscaled development plans and staffing. Eventually they did a 180 and attempted to bring back at least healing and massively nerfed rewards for the mindless DPS-fest content. But by that point their existing players were people who liked the mindless DPS-fest. They complained bitterly and I think rewards were swiftly un-nerfed.

While ESO didn't do away with trinity, healing in this game is bad / boring and tanking doesn't look a whole lot better. DPS is also problematic.

To be specific, healing in other games is dynamic and engaging. You typically have one (or more in bigger content) tank to focus on but you also need to keep an eye on everything. Be ready for anything. Try to see disaster coming and be ready to heal others as needed. Decide who to let die if things get dire. Resurrect the dead. There's a lot going on.

In ESO healing is actually mostly playing DPS. Re-applying the same group buff every 8 seconds if you can bear the monotony. I cannot and won't slot that ability. Keeping up an aoe heal over time of some description. Occasional single target heals for players who are hit by boss mega attacks and nearly killed. Assuming players manage to survive them.

You don't resurrect. Because if someone needs one of those big mega attacks, you do need to heal them swiftly. DPS handle resurrection.

And run / roll out red circles.

DPS is also problematic. One of the appeals of Skyrim (single player) and ESO is lack of cooldowns (excluding dragon shouts, which I ignored). You're in control of your character. But for group content the DPS role especially reverses that. As in cooldown driven MMOs you are reduced to repeating the same keystroke combinations over and over and over and over and over and over again.

And run / roll out red circles.

But you see the problem? Solo content appeals to one style of player. No cooldowns. In control of your character. DPS in group content is more WOW style.

Both healers and tanks also have the problem of cost. It costs gold to respec your CP, stats and morphs. Solo content is DPS focused. If you want to do both, you have to burn gold. For something that's not super enjoyable anyway.

"I do understand. And it's very easy to explain.

ESO dungeons and trials suck. Hard."

What about this statement is an explanation and isn't simply one person's opinion? You proceed to provide nothing substantive that would lead anyone to believe that dungeons or trials actually suck.

"ZO keep trying different ways to "encourage" players to do them because the whole point of an MMO is to play with others and if that's actually fun then more people want to play and the game earns more money.

But rather than making group content fun, ZO does things like adding dungeons and trials to holiday events, like the Witches Festival. Or taking one of things it does well - story - and splitting that story across the base game and dungeons to force people into content they don't enjoy."

Literally every MMO does this to increase the content's lifespan. There is no hidden agenda behind providing incentive to do content. Why would a company add content and then proceed to make it irrelevant to the current storyline? That doesn't even make any sense.

"I think their core mistake was copying the immensely successful at launch GW2. But the thing is, what made GW2 an immense success wasn't its group content. It was the lack of subscription and simple, fun open world gameplay. GW2 explicitly did away with trinity gameplay and in doing so, turned end-game group content into mindless DPS-fests. Plus rolling out red circles."

They couldn't possibly have made this core mistake simply because you go on to list 3 things unique to GW2 that do not exist in this game. So what is it that you are even referring to?

1. lack of subscription
2. open world gameplay
3. doing away with the trinity

"While ESO didn't do away with trinity, healing in this game is bad / boring and tanking doesn't look a whole lot better. DPS is also problematic.

To be specific, healing in other games is dynamic and engaging. You typically have one (or more in bigger content) tank to focus on but you also need to keep an eye on everything. Be ready for anything. Try to see disaster coming and be ready to heal others as needed. Decide who to let die if things get dire. Resurrect the dead. There's a lot going on."

This just says to me "I don't do serious content in this game, thus I have no concept of healing or tanking with the exception of a brief foray into casual group content." In more serious content, there are two tanks (sometimes three), in addition to group healing. There IS a lot going on, considering healers have to take on many roles that are not simply standing in the middle of the group and waving your arms in the air. Healers are required to kite, to maintain buffs, to provide resources, to perform mechanics that would otherwise require a DPS resulting in a DPS loss, in addition to healing the group.

"In ESO healing is actually mostly playing DPS. Re-applying the same group buff every 8 seconds if you can bear the monotony. I cannot and won't slot that ability. Keeping up an aoe heal over time of some description. Occasional single target heals for players who are hit by boss mega attacks and nearly killed. Assuming players manage to survive them."

No, it's not at all. Not only are you mistaken about only 'Re-applying the same group buff every 8 seconds', but you freely admit that you refuse to even slot it. There are myriad buffs that the healer is required to provide through abilities AND gear (including your missing 8 second buff) that take up the majority of your time and rotation as a healer.

If you admittedly don't engage in group content, don't like group content, and don't understand the support roles in terms of endgame, why would you proceed to make this post simply to rag on it? How would you even know?

jircris11

Casdha wrote: »

First I tried to keep this clip under Fair Use rules but I needed to be able to point out what I'm talking about for those who don't watch the 2 hour stream recording.

I do not understand why development time is wasted on placing meaningful story content inside of a group dungeon. I'm sure those who like group dungeons would rather those resources be spent on a 3rd dungeon rather than something they don't care about. I also think folks who are here for the main story don't like dealing with others while trying to experience it.
Below is a clip that is the crux of my problem with the direction of this franchise.

https://youtu.be/GFKc18GBMfA

My guild does the story and takes it slow less we all have seen it. and they ask a few times before running.

MartiniDaniels

Nerouyn wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

I do not understand why development time is wasted on placing meaningful story content inside of a group dungeon.

I do understand. And it's very easy to explain.

ESO dungeons and trials suck. Hard.

But you see the problem? Solo content appeals to one style of player. No cooldowns. In control of your character. DPS in group content is more WOW style.

Both healers and tanks also have the problem of cost. It costs gold to respec your CP, stats and morphs. Solo content is DPS focused. If you want to do both, you have to burn gold. For something that's not super enjoyable anyway.

Dungeon sucks. Trial sucks. PVP sucks. Trading sucks. Why are you playing this game then? to walk around fighting with mobs who can't outdps your health recovery?

Elsonso

Klad wrote: »

If this becomes a practice they are going to lose people....

Many people left WoW because the story was gated behind a raid.

Sigh. From my time playing WoW, a lot of players wouldn't know the story if it came up and bit their tooshie. I would imagine many of them are unaware there is a story. They are just there for the quest reward and other loot, which an add-on clicks through so fast they could not read what the NPC said if they tried. I was actually stunned when I came across someone who knew the story. In my head I was thinking, "quietly check for the nearest exit..."

Casdha wrote: »

idk wrote: »

• First off OP is a day late and a dollar short. Even the clip OP presented says Zos did this last year as well.

Nope, I fussed about this last year as well and the clip roughly says "last year they liked it and They wanted the story to be even more integrated and we did that and each of the DLCs that we do are all very tied, directly to the story line"

Honestly, this sounds like a good idea to me. I don't do the DLC dungeons, and I am a lore person, and I am perfectly fine with there being story in the dungeon. They don't go far enough. Things should happen during the year that have bearing on the story, and that includes them adding special story related events that only happen during that year. This event becomes part of the story for the year.

Tamriel is a big world. I don't have to be everywhere, experiencing everything. Things can happen when I am not there.

wild_kmacdb16_ESO

Nothing enhances a story quite like having to skip all the dialogue so the group doesn't yell at you for slowing them down, am I right?

xeNNNNN

I've got to admit it does annoy me that I cannot just enjoy the story because its tied MP content, at some point though they kinda have to do this sadly because of the way MMOs are structured - this is the aspect of story telling and narrative that usually get harmed due to the nature of RPGs and Multiplayer experiences clashing.

Its kinda why I do not play WoW or Swtor anymore because a great deal of good story is in the MP content there.

I.e for late game Swtor (older content now) Dread lords palace, you get to do all the story stuff planet side but then the conclusion to that story is kept from you unless you can find a raid and even then you dont really have a chance to listen to the story and all that.

I will say though out of all the MMOs ESO does this in the least crappy way possible. The stories in dungeons tend to be just "connectors" for the narrative or bridges. They don't actually tend to be truly meaningful beyond some perhaps easter eggs and things like that I mean depths of malazar and frost vault weren't really that interesting it really was just "get X half of tablet because someone wanted it" and also connected to the volenfell story through the Lead NPCs in those dungeons.

Iccotak

wild_kmacdb16_ESO wrote: »

Nothing enhances a story quite like having to skip all the dialogue so the group doesn't yell at you for slowing them down, am I right?

Find a better group or a guild who will take the time

idk

Casdha wrote: »

idk wrote: »

• First off OP is a day late and a dollar short. Even the clip OP presented says Zos did this last year as well.

Nope, I fussed about this last year as well and the clip roughly says "last year they liked it and They wanted the story to be even more integrated and we did that and each of the DLCs that we do are all very tied, directly to the story line"

And it seems to have worked very well with very little criticism about it during the year.

I do like how you edited out the rest as it was probably inconvenient to address those two points. No problem

witchdoctor

Iccotak wrote: »

wild_kmacdb16_ESO wrote: »

Nothing enhances a story quite like having to skip all the dialogue so the group doesn't yell at you for slowing them down, am I right?

Find a better group or a guild who will take the time

Seriously. Many of these people appear to rely solely on PUGs because they ... won't ask guildies (why are you in a guild then?) or don't take the time to look for a guild that better suits them.

The normal DLC are NOT so hard that 4 people willing to spend a modicum of attention cannot do.

witchdoctor

idk wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

idk wrote: »

• First off OP is a day late and a dollar short. Even the clip OP presented says Zos did this last year as well.

Nope, I fussed about this last year as well and the clip roughly says "last year they liked it and They wanted the story to be even more integrated and we did that and each of the DLCs that we do are all very tied, directly to the story line"

And it seems to have worked very well with very little criticism about it during the year.

ZOS has metrics and multiple avenues of feedback.

If DLC dungeons didn't make a profit, or if Elsweyr was not a success ... ZOS would change the practice.

We may not have the figures, but if you accept that ZOS, as a business, has a singular goal ... then it stands to reason that the DLC model works for them.

TokenIntellect

idk wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

idk wrote: »

• First off OP is a day late and a dollar short. Even the clip OP presented says Zos did this last year as well.

Nope, I fussed about this last year as well and the clip roughly says "last year they liked it and They wanted the story to be even more integrated and we did that and each of the DLCs that we do are all very tied, directly to the story line"

And it seems to have worked very well with very little criticism about it during the year.

I do like how you edited out the rest as it was probably inconvenient to address those two points. No problem

Really, IDK?

As I recall, when they announced the intention to hide story behind dungeon content with the "Year of the Dragon" there were a number of threads asking for ZOS to either change their minds about that and/or add a story mode.

The reason why the OP isn't "a day late and a dollar short" is precisely because the complaint is still relevant. It is exactly the type of substantive critique that ZOS actually asks for: point out what's wrong and offer a potential solution. Just because you like it the way it is doesn't mean other people do or that ZOS is correct in how they're reading the situation.

The truth? A story mode makes more of the content accessible to more people. More people playing more of the time means more money. Even if it only adds a few minutes per week per person that adds up. If ZOS wants people to play as they like, they should actually let people play the way they (the people and not the devs) like.

Casdha

idk wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

idk wrote: »

• First off OP is a day late and a dollar short. Even the clip OP presented says Zos did this last year as well.

Nope, I fussed about this last year as well and the clip roughly says "last year they liked it and They wanted the story to be even more integrated and we did that and each of the DLCs that we do are all very tied, directly to the story line"

And it seems to have worked very well with very little criticism about it during the year.

I do like how you edited out the rest as it was probably inconvenient to address those two points. No problem

Only edited because it was your view point and you are welcome to it, I just corrected what you said about me personally.

Linaleah

witchdoctor wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

wild_kmacdb16_ESO wrote: »

Nothing enhances a story quite like having to skip all the dialogue so the group doesn't yell at you for slowing them down, am I right?

Find a better group or a guild who will take the time

Seriously. Many of these people appear to rely solely on PUGs because they ... won't ask guildies (why are you in a guild then?) or don't take the time to look for a guild that better suits them.

The normal DLC are NOT so hard that 4 people willing to spend a modicum of attention cannot do.

even in a social friendly guild, it can take a while to get all the schedules to align. you then have to constantly coordinate talking to npc's so that they don't start walking away in a middle of a dialogue suddenly, because someone else in your group finished reading before you finished listening. every person likes to absorb the story at their own pace. I've done this. to say that this is not ideal is an understatement of a century.

it's a production to get a group going for a single story and exploration based run. and you wonder why people are unhappy about it and asking for something that does NOT require a song and a dance that may still end up with you skipping some content? come ON.

Linaleah

idk wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

idk wrote: »

• First off OP is a day late and a dollar short. Even the clip OP presented says Zos did this last year as well.

Nope, I fussed about this last year as well and the clip roughly says "last year they liked it and They wanted the story to be even more integrated and we did that and each of the DLCs that we do are all very tied, directly to the story line"

And it seems to have worked very well with very little criticism about it during the year.

I do like how you edited out the rest as it was probably inconvenient to address those two points. No problem

there was plenty of criticism. "please give us solo mode dungeons" pops up AT LEAST ONCE A WEEK. come ON.

TheGreatBlackBear

It takes a special kind of person to complain about content that hasn't even been released. How to could you have gripes already?

MornaBaine

While I enjoy doing group content from time to time I, too, really wish there were solo versions of all the dungeons. I want to take my time and listen to and read every little thing. It's hard to do that in a dungeon group. Take away the rewards and just toss me some gold as a reward and I'd be quite happy.

Sylvermynx

Y'know.... I don't give a rat's patoot about "rewards". I just want story mode so I CAN READ THE STORIES.

Karminathevamp

If you search for "story mode" for dungeons in the forum, you will notice that some of us have been asking for it for several years but ZOS has always been ignoring our requests.

O_LYKOS

I'm not even apart of this thread and i've been spammed with emails for notifications everytime someone commented

BaiterOfZergs

O_LYKOS wrote: »

I'm not even apart of this thread and i've been spammed with emails for notifications everytime someone commented

Probably favorited it