My biggest gripe about Dark Heart (Story in Group DLC)

Casdha

First I tried to keep this clip under Fair Use rules but I needed to be able to point out what I'm talking about for those who don't watch the 2 hour stream recording.

I do not understand why development time is wasted on placing meaningful story content inside of a group dungeon. I'm sure those who like group dungeons would rather those resources be spent on a 3rd dungeon rather than something they don't care about. I also think folks who are here for the main story don't like dealing with others while trying to experience it.
Below is a clip that is the crux of my problem with the direction of this franchise.

https://youtu.be/GFKc18GBMfA

Blaqk_EyeD

There are several guilds that do group dungeons and take the time to explore the lore inside. Pugs are hit and miss to begin with. More bland, story lacking, quick run through dungeons are not the answer.

Royaji

And ZOS would like you to play all of the game. Because they can't chug out content faster than players consume it. So they would prefer to get the most out of the content they can produce.

Casdha

Blaqk_EyeD wrote: »

There are several guilds that do group dungeons and take the time to explore the lore inside. Pugs are hit and miss to begin with. More bland, story lacking, quick run through dungeons are not the answer.

Yes I know, I belong to what I consider to be one of the better ones that has been here since launch but due to my play schedule I'm rarely on at a convenient time to join them.

I would be happy if they would just make a difficulty level (or set the level on normal) to one that compares with nMA or Starter level dungeons without the group checks. It would still be challenging for most solo players and still hard enough for newb group players. I also wouldn't scoff at a Story mode without the rewards as it still wouldn't affect the content for those who currently do it.

Smitch_59

Royaji wrote: »

And ZOS would like you to play all of the game. Because they can't chug out content faster than players consume it. So they would prefer to get the most out of the content they can produce.

ZOS might like me to play all of the game, but I won't. I'm a solo player who only bought ESO because it's an Elder Scrolls game. I've tried group content and PVP but I didn't care for it, so I stick to solo play. Now that I've largely completed all the solo content I can, I'm now "finished" with the game. I cancelled my sub and am now moving on to other single-player games. The current trend of putting story content in group dungeons simply confirms my decision that ESO is no longer the game for me.

Royaji

Smitch_59 wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

And ZOS would like you to play all of the game. Because they can't chug out content faster than players consume it. So they would prefer to get the most out of the content they can produce.

ZOS might like me to play all of the game, but I won't. I'm a solo player who only bought ESO because it's an Elder Scrolls game. I've tried group content and PVP but I didn't care for it, so I stick to solo play. Now that I've largely completed all the solo content I can, I'm now "finished" with the game. I cancelled my sub and am now moving on to other single-player games. The current trend of putting story content in group dungeons simply confirms my decision that ESO is no longer the game for me.

Very interesting story! Now we just need to make sure the same is true about some noticeable percentage of the playerbase and it would actually be relevant to the topic at hand.

And that kind of attitude just confirms that ESO was never for you.

zvavi

Smitch_59 wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

And ZOS would like you to play all of the game. Because they can't chug out content faster than players consume it. So they would prefer to get the most out of the content they can produce.

ZOS might like me to play all of the game, but I won't. I'm a solo player who only bought ESO because it's an Elder Scrolls game. I've tried group content and PVP but I didn't care for it, so I stick to solo play. Now that I've largely completed all the solo content I can, I'm now "finished" with the game. I cancelled my sub and am now moving on to other single-player games. The current trend of putting story content in group dungeons simply confirms my decision that ESO is no longer the game for me.

This is total bs here, even if the dungeon story was soloable, you would do them in like what, story mode half hour for 10 dungeons? An hour a week and 4 more on weekend and u r done. U would have unsubbed and went single player anyway.

Edit: also, i am dungeon folk, and i dont like that i cant enjoy the story either, cause all the bosses are anticlimactic and die super fast in overland. I enjoy that part of it is in the dungeon. Tata.

Casdha

Royaji wrote: »

And ZOS would like you to play all of the game. Because they can't chug out content faster than players consume it. So they would prefer to get the most out of the content they can produce.

folks who play and then repeat content would still repeat the content and still skip the story. Folks who avoid group content might be enticed to purchase it if they could play it.

Unless they have changed things I'm unaware of, you only get the story, or at least the full story, the first time you play it anyways. It is omitted on the repeat runs.

Royaji

Casdha wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

And ZOS would like you to play all of the game. Because they can't chug out content faster than players consume it. So they would prefer to get the most out of the content they can produce.

folks who play and then repeat content would still repeat the content and still skip the story. Folks who avoid group content might be enticed to purchase it if they could play it.

Unless they have changed things I'm unaware of, you only get the story, or at least the full stor,y the first time you play it anyways. It is omitted on the repeat runs.

No. Some of those who completed a dungeon for the first time for the story might decide that dungeons are actually pretty fun and they will play more. And some of those who are only interested in dungeons can get interested in the story and start looking forward to the next chapter. The majortiy will play for both dungeon and story and will be happy that they got so much content.

And making both group dungeons and story work is not rocket science. ZOS is just really bad at it. Instead of the "do some fighting, stand still for 5 minutes talking to the NPC, do some fighting, ..." cycles they could have just had NPCs follow you as you are moving through the dungeon and deliver their lines as the action is happening. So even if you teammates might not be paying attention you will still hear the story.

XomRhoK

As i understood, from what @ZOS_Finn said, at least Q1 dungeons story will have about the same meaning to the whole story as Q1 dungeons in Elsweyr. You will find one artifact at each dungeon and will not understand exactly what it is until prologue quest before chapter. He said this somewhere in the end of presentation, as i remember.
But i agree that it's not very good thing until they have solo dungeon mode or story dungeon mode (with restrictions to continue untill all agree to continue by pressing "F" for example). And words of @ZOS_RichLambert "they liked that, they want the story to be more integreited" is a guarshit, i am sure that now, without solo/story dungeon mode, most player that play ESO for story content don't like that. But overall it's a good idea if ZOS will allow somehow solo players to enjoy that story in the dungeons.
And i sure it's a very good idea from the point of ZOS's income, because part of solo players start to buy dungeons, and thats why ZOS so exited about that.

snoozy

i wish they would at least give a statement on it. the community has been asking for ages.
even if they say "not gonna happen" at least we get a reaction.
but the choose to continue ignoring us apparently

Casdha

XomRhoK wrote: »

But i agree that it's not very good thing until they have solo dungeon mode or story dungeon mode (with restrictions to continue untill all agree to continue by pressing "F" for example).

Maybe they could also have a LFG option of "Story Run" with this feature enabled if you choose this option in the LFG.

Edit: then again I can also see trolls joining groups just to keep you from advancing the story.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

I'd just like to see a "story mode".

Can be done solo, and yes, I'd be happy for it to feature ZERO rewards.

I suspect more than a few people would support this call. It's just that we want to take in the lore.

I'm more than happy to play for no rewards, as the story itself IS the the reward in this case.

Smitch_59

Royaji wrote: »

Smitch_59 wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

And ZOS would like you to play all of the game. Because they can't chug out content faster than players consume it. So they would prefer to get the most out of the content they can produce.

ZOS might like me to play all of the game, but I won't. I'm a solo player who only bought ESO because it's an Elder Scrolls game. I've tried group content and PVP but I didn't care for it, so I stick to solo play. Now that I've largely completed all the solo content I can, I'm now "finished" with the game. I cancelled my sub and am now moving on to other single-player games. The current trend of putting story content in group dungeons simply confirms my decision that ESO is no longer the game for me.

Very interesting story! Now we just need to make sure the same is true about some noticeable percentage of the playerbase and it would actually be relevant to the topic at hand.

And that kind of attitude just confirms that ESO was never for you.

Wrong. I used to enjoy ESO tremendously. I especially liked the pre-One Tamriel days, when I could go to Cadwell's Silver or Gold and it felt like a real single-player game because nobody else was there. I subbed to ESO+ for over four years, and I'm sure ZOS appreciated my money just as much as yours. But having completed the main story and zone quest lines many times over, and having done all the content I care to, it's simply time for me to move on to other games. While my opinion may not be that of the majority, that does not make it irrelevant to the topic at hand.

VaranisArano

My gripe is that by tying the year-long story to the Q1 dungeon DLCs even tangentially, ZOS makes it impossible for new players who start in the newest Chapter to do the story in chronological order.

Casdha

snoozy wrote: »

i wish they would at least give a statement on it. the community has been asking for ages.
even if they say "not gonna happen" at least we get a reaction.
but the choose to continue ignoring us apparently

I personally would like to know who the "They" is they referred to in the clip that was asking for more story integration.
I've never seen a single post on these forums about wanting more story integration for group dungeons. Every post I've seen on the subject has been to the contrary.

XomRhoK

Casdha wrote: »

XomRhoK wrote: »

But i agree that it's not very good thing until they have solo dungeon mode or story dungeon mode (with restrictions to continue untill all agree to continue by pressing "F" for example).

Maybe they could also have a LFG option of "Story Run" with this feature enabled if you choose this option in the LFG.

Edit: then again I can also see trolls joining groups just to keep you from advancing the story.

Sure story mode must be in LFG, overwise it useless, solo players don't like finding groups by themselves.
Something like that, to avoid long list of dungeons:
story__normal__veteran____dungeon
__v______o________o______Fungal Grotto 1
__o______o________o______Fungal Grotto 2

List of dungeons with three check boxes.

MartiniDaniels

Casdha wrote: »

First I tried to keep this clip under Fair Use rules but I needed to be able to point out what I'm talking about for those who don't watch the 2 hour stream recording.

I do not understand why development time is wasted on placing meaningful story content inside of a group dungeon. I'm sure those who like group dungeons would rather those resources be spent on a 3rd dungeon rather than something they don't care about. I also think folks who are here for the main story don't like dealing with others while trying to experience it.
Below is a clip that is the crux of my problem with the direction of this franchise.

What a wild accusation. Actually dungeon stories are stories which I enjoyed most of all, because their story is intertwined with gameplay. Would I remember Valkyn Skoria if I was not dying to him when I was low CP? Would I remember Zaan&Co if her story was not supported by death from single error? Would I perceive minotaurs as dangerous monsters if not for Bloodroot&Falkreath?
DLC dungeons are best PVE part of the game in my opinion, no need to strip them of lore just because some players don't want to play in group in multiplayer game.

frozzzen101

Casdha wrote: »

I personally would like to know who the "They" is they referred to in the clip that was asking for more story integration.
I've never seen a single post on these forums about wanting more story integration for group dungeons. Every post I've seen on the subject has been to the contrary.

Here, have one then.

Did you ever stop to consider that there are people who are enjoying DLC dungeon stories and in a big way because of difficulty attached to them? That there are people that enjoyed story of March of Sacrifices because it was genuinely hard first time and it actually felt like something Hircine might drag you trough? That there are people who enjoyed something like Fang Lair because last boss was so tough when it first came out that there was actual threat associated with it? Unlike Manimarco - the greatest necromancer ever etc etc etc. Can't take that *** seriously.

You know, I'm tired of posts like yours demanding that what little of enjoyable game content comes out be lowered to roleplayer level. Honestly, I can't fully enjoy overland content because it's so easy that most of the bosses die before they even get their dialogue out and die before I finish full rotation. I can't get immersed in story if I know that my base hp regen will outheal anything mobs can throw at me, so only place where I can experience decent story is in difficult content. I know all stock responses, and you know what? I couldn't care less about any of them. You also probably know all the stock responses I might tell you. Are you with a straight face telling me that you cannot organize a group for story run for two normal dungeons to get the full story in 3 months before chapter comes out? Seriously?

Casdha

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

What a wild accusation. Actually dungeon stories are stories which I enjoyed most of all, because their story is intertwined with gameplay. Would I remember Valkyn Skoria if I was not dying to him when I was low CP? Would I remember Zaan&Co if her story was not supported by death from single error? Would I perceive minotaurs as dangerous monsters if not for Bloodroot&Falkreath?
DLC dungeons are best PVE part of the game in my opinion, no need to strip them of lore just because some players don't want to play in group in multiplayer game.

Never suggested stripping them of lore or story, I said meaningful story (i.e. part of the main story) inside of a group dungeon.

frozzzen101 wrote: »

You know, I'm tired of posts like yours demanding that what little of enjoyable game content comes out be lowered to roleplayer level.

I never demanded anything, I stated what I didn't like about the direction of the game and offered suggestions based on opinions I've seen for a compromise. I've never suggested that anything that exists be taken out or changed. I have suggested other options be added.

frozzzen101 wrote: »

Are you with a straight face telling me that you cannot organize a group for story run for two normal dungeons to get the full story in 3 months before chapter comes out? Seriously?

Yes.
I've not played since I finished Dragonhold and won't play again until Greymore. Whether that is this year as a chapter or the next year as a DLC remains to be seen.

GenjiraX

Blaqk_EyeD wrote: »

There are several guilds that do group dungeons and take the time to explore the lore inside.

How can I find them? I love exploring everything the game designers put in but in group content I feel under massive pressure not to hold anyone else back.

Nemesis7884

i think its good that dungeons have some light story connection to the over arch (that arent absolutely necessary to the questline of course)...otherwise they wouldnt feel connected and on normal dungeons are really easy so anyone should be able to do them.

GW2 had also a good system where they had 2 different modes for dungeons afai remember, one with more cutscenes and texts and dialogue for story purposes but super easy fights and than the grinding / loot collection dungeons without all the story and higher difficulty.

frozzzen101

Casdha wrote: »

I never demanded anything, I stated what I didn't like about the direction of the game and offered suggestions based on opinions I've seen for a compromise. I've never suggested that anything that exists be taken out or changed. I have suggested other options be added.

Sure I'm all up for options, but it just won't happen. It would require a lot of resources to do this properly. Solo story mode for dungeons and trials? Unlikely. Veteran overland? Unlikely. So we are in same boat really. We cannot experience content in the fashion we'd like to.

As for your "yes", quite frankly you aren't even trying. I can call in people and make group to do quest run of dungeon any weekend and if people are online and up for it, even weekdays. That you cannot do 40 minutes of content in 100 days is plain bs and if you won't spare 1% of effort to get it done then you deserve to miss on a story. It's not that you can't do it, it's that you don't want to do it.

Strider__Roshin

You could probably just solo it on normal honestly.

Ksariyu

100% agree. It's not that I wish they'd take stories out of dungeons entirely (though I wouldn't be opposed), just don't connect them so heavily to the overland stories we get in Chapter updates. If I have to buy an overpriced DLC containing a whopping two dungeons that I'll do once, then an overpriced Chapter for the new zone I'll explore once, then another overpriced DLC for two more one-trip dungeons, and then another overpriced DLC for a worse version of the chapter. . . . I'm just gonna skip all of it and play another game that doesn't require a year and $100 to finish. Absolute joke of a company right now, but when Pete Hines is supporting the marketing department, we know what to expect.

frozzzen101 wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

I never demanded anything, I stated what I didn't like about the direction of the game and offered suggestions based on opinions I've seen for a compromise. I've never suggested that anything that exists be taken out or changed. I have suggested other options be added.

Sure I'm all up for options, but it just won't happen. It would require a lot of resources to do this properly. Solo story mode for dungeons and trials? Unlikely. Veteran overland? Unlikely. So we are in same boat really. We cannot experience content in the fashion we'd like to.

As for your "yes", quite frankly you aren't even trying. I can call in people and make group to do quest run of dungeon any weekend and if people are online and up for it, even weekdays. That you cannot do 40 minutes of content in 100 days is plain bs and if you won't spare 1% of effort to get it done then you deserve to miss on a story. It's not that you can't do it, it's that you don't want to do it.

See above regarding "resources." Not scamming your playerbase might seem resource-intensive, but it's really just brain power.
Regarding grouping - congrats. I'm glad you've made enough friends so far to have no trouble finding premades. That said, some of us have to spend hours just getting s**t-tier DPS to farm gear with, never mind an actual enjoyable group to do story content. Disregard the fact that the game and its community actively discourage grouping outside of trials, it's still absurd how many hoops you have to jump through to actually enjoy any of the content in this game.

Casdha

frozzzen101 wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

I never demanded anything, I stated what I didn't like about the direction of the game and offered suggestions based on opinions I've seen for a compromise. I've never suggested that anything that exists be taken out or changed. I have suggested other options be added.

Sure I'm all up for options, but it just won't happen. It would require a lot of resources to do this properly. Solo story mode for dungeons and trials? Unlikely. Veteran overland? Unlikely. So we are in same boat really. We cannot experience content in the fashion we'd like to.

As for your "yes", quite frankly you aren't even trying. I can call in people and make group to do quest run of dungeon any weekend and if people are online and up for it, even weekdays. That you cannot do 40 minutes of content in 100 days is plain bs and if you won't spare 1% of effort to get it done then you deserve to miss on a story. It's not that you can't do it, it's that you don't want to do it.

I agree with you on options and whether they will happen or not. As for the rest you're exactly right. Not playing (purchasing) the content takes zero effort and is how I voice my dislike for certain aspects of the game. No amount of argument is going to make my buy something I do not wish to buy.

The only reason I've had access to Group DLCs in the past is due to ESO+, but that is loosing its luster with each release. I can easily switch to an intermittent monthly sub rather than the year long subs that I've been doing and still play everything that I want to play even if it is a year later, I have patience. Heck I'm just now going back and playing The Witcher series and because I waited I paid less than $20 for the whole set. If they want me to continue to pay the premium price it is going to have to be worth it (to me). I don't have to quit, I just have to wait. I've already waited a year on RE2 and Rage 2 and the new Doom is coming out soon. At least with 2 of those Bethesda will still get my money, just not for ESO.

Edit:

ESO+ 1yr = $139.99 + digital colector's upgrade $49.99 + tax $208.88 per year (what I've been doing)

vs.

3 months ESO+ one year from now $41.97 + tax = $46.16 and comes with 4950 in crowns you can use toward purchasing the content permanently (what I can do)

Linaleah

my theory is that DLC dungeons are unpopular, so they try to.. encourage more people to by them, buy locking story behind them. the problem is with a few, relatively rare exceptions - find a group of people who are willing to take literal hours ( becasue of exploring and listening to all the dialogue) to complete these dungeons AND getting your schedules to match up - can be far more challenging than the dungeons themselves. and the dungeons are already significantly harder then base game offerings, even on normal - which can make them very rough in pugs.

this is why we need solo mode.

make it give nothing, but acess to story, for all I care (or I don't know replace loot with over-world drops or something), but while i'm not as solo bound as OP is (and to all the detractors - ESO is sold in part as a very solo friendly game, so they are not wrong for being interested in it as a solo experience) - current paradigm is just... not great. to put it mildly.

at least stories in trials are self contained. I still wish I could take more time to explore and to listen, but finding a trials group that is willing to hang around while you talk to every npc (and they actualy have quite a bit to say in trials as well) - can be even harder then finding 3 other people to do this in a dungeon.

before we had self contained stories though. now... they are part of the larger narrative and THAT.. is something that IMO requires some changes.

P.S. yes, i managed to do these dungeons as a story experience. it still wasn't exactly what I wanted to do, and i missed a few parts here and there, because some of the people in my group moved on before i did, and NPC's moved on with them. it took some schedule finagling. I've also finally got to explore my way through imperial city dungeons at leusure, reading all the notes and talking to various people - YEARS after first playing them. on alts. because my SO finaly got into the game, so we took a few weekends to 2 man our way through them. however just because its possible for some people - doesn't mean its good.

WildRaptorX

Give us dungeon story mode ZOS!

Casdha

On a side note, did anyone else wonder who actually plays DLC group dungeons in first person like they showed in the reveal clips?

And folks say they aren't marketing to Solo TES players.

Tandor

I think it's fair enough that the story is split between different playstyles. That said, be grateful that they don't put half of it in Cyrodiil.

My main gripe with the dungeons is that they comprise two-thirds of the DLCs each year (plus perhaps a trial in the chapter), and don't include any other content. A delve or two in each dungeon DLC, for example, would open them up to a great many more players - and would therefore, I imagine, be a significant commercial boost from a marketing point of view. It would surely be a far more effective way of boosting dungeon DLC sales than locking a story behind them. I doubt that most players are even interested in the overall story, let alone sufficiently interested to want to play through group content if that otherwise doesn't appeal to them.

Nerouyn

Casdha wrote: »

I do not understand why development time is wasted on placing meaningful story content inside of a group dungeon.

I do understand. And it's very easy to explain.

ESO dungeons and trials suck. Hard.

ZO keep trying different ways to "encourage" players to do them because the whole point of an MMO is to play with others and if that's actually fun then more people want to play and the game earns more money.

But rather than making group content fun, ZO does things like adding dungeons and trials to holiday events, like the Witches Festival. Or taking one of things it does well - story - and splitting that story across the base game and dungeons to force people into content they don't enjoy.

You can't actually force players into this content though. They also have the option to ignore it - Witches Festival is dead to me now - or not play. I don't presently take ESO very seriously and even then almost entirely for solo content.

I think their core mistake was copying the immensely successful at launch GW2. But the thing is, what made GW2 an immense success wasn't its group content. It was the lack of subscription and simple, fun open world gameplay. GW2 explicitly did away with trinity gameplay and in doing so, turned end-game group content into mindless DPS-fests. Plus rolling out red circles.

Ugggh.

GW2 has never recovered from that. Big financial success initially but they couldn't maintain it, which you can see with downscaled development plans and staffing. Eventually they did a 180 and attempted to bring back at least healing and massively nerfed rewards for the mindless DPS-fest content. But by that point their existing players were people who liked the mindless DPS-fest. They complained bitterly and I think rewards were swiftly un-nerfed.

While ESO didn't do away with trinity, healing in this game is bad / boring and tanking doesn't look a whole lot better. DPS is also problematic.

To be specific, healing in other games is dynamic and engaging. You typically have one (or more in bigger content) tank to focus on but you also need to keep an eye on everything. Be ready for anything. Try to see disaster coming and be ready to heal others as needed. Decide who to let die if things get dire. Resurrect the dead. There's a lot going on.

In ESO healing is actually mostly playing DPS. Re-applying the same group buff every 8 seconds if you can bear the monotony. I cannot and won't slot that ability. Keeping up an aoe heal over time of some description. Occasional single target heals for players who are hit by boss mega attacks and nearly killed. Assuming players manage to survive them.

You don't resurrect. Because if someone needs one of those big mega attacks, you do need to heal them swiftly. DPS handle resurrection.

And run / roll out red circles.

DPS is also problematic. One of the appeals of Skyrim (single player) and ESO is lack of cooldowns (excluding dragon shouts, which I ignored). You're in control of your character. But for group content the DPS role especially reverses that. As in cooldown driven MMOs you are reduced to repeating the same keystroke combinations over and over and over and over and over and over again.

And run / roll out red circles.

But you see the problem? Solo content appeals to one style of player. No cooldowns. In control of your character. DPS in group content is more WOW style.

Both healers and tanks also have the problem of cost. It costs gold to respec your CP, stats and morphs. Solo content is DPS focused. If you want to do both, you have to burn gold. For something that's not super enjoyable anyway.