DCZergNoob wrote: »

CP lets you pave over the weaknesses of heavy armor pretty effectively.

Even in CP, the best players in Medium will beat the best players in Heavy in 1v1. EDIT: Or it will be a stalemate, which as I have described before, in my view prevents Cyro from devolving into a game of Risk where defense is next to useless and Emp changes every 5 minutes. Emp being that volatile would in my view diminish much of the tension and suspense which makes Cyro rewarding.

In my view, it is reasonable and equitable that Medium is reserved for Elite Ninjas, while the masses of infantry and siege engineers are in Heavy.

@starkerealm

I'm proud to be a heavy grunt, I'm toast in medium.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

So when PvP-ers can't win with "skill", builds, or cheese... they beg ZOS to nerf the opposition.
SMH
After you get tank meta nerfed, maybe the ex-tank-metas will ask ZOS to nerf you back. Fair's fair right?
Then you can all shout at ZOS for swinging the pendulum again and again.

Everything you said is irrelevant: The constant shifting meta every 3 months has nothing to do with who can win and who cant. Being a good player doesnt negate what the current meta is. Actually enforces it if anything

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

DCZergNoob wrote: »

Everything you said is irrelevant: The constant shifting meta every 3 months has nothing to do with who can win and who cant. Being a good player doesnt negate what the current meta is. Actually enforces it if anything

Then why are you asking for any change at all? Any change will change the "current meta". If meta has nothing to do with who can win and who can't then why bother with trying to optimize? Why bother changing anything if you claim it doesn't adjust win/lose? The fact is people who chase meta are doing so being they think they can "win" (at whatever) better if they do so.

Meta is it's own problem. ZOS shouldn't have to fix what players made a problem themselves.
Ever since roleplaying games let people have more freedom to put together their characters, players have known that minmaxers ruin the game for everyone -- including ultimately themselves. Meta chasers are the problem.
And I think ZOS knows that and is trying to focus on fun -- people who have a character concept, power fantasy, and ZOS wants to let them play their way and have fun without having to meta anything. It's better if they don't.

I mean yeah that is true but i didnt ask lmao... i said "how to get rid"

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

So when PvP-ers can't win with "skill", builds, or cheese... they beg ZOS to nerf the opposition.
SMH
After you get tank meta nerfed, maybe the ex-tank-metas will ask ZOS to nerf you back. Fair's fair right?
Then you can all shout at ZOS for swinging the pendulum again and again.

Last night I ran into 3 Templar tanks standing on Alessia Bridge. I engaged because usually in that scenario I’ll take one of them out or at least go out in a blaze of glory losing a fun 1 on 3 battle which isn’t a big deal.

Anyway, as I got closer I thought that they had actually glitched out and would be free kills. Turns out that they weren’t AFK. They were just standing there and despite 50K magic and spell power approaching 4K and an Ice Comet and jabs and radiant and a proc set ... I got nothing.

Best I could do was get one down slightly for like a second before they just burst healed back to 100%. It was one 810 and two other guys who were sub 600 CP.

My toon is fully specced to melt people as best as a Magplar could reasonably be able to do and I have thousands of hours of PVP with tens of thousands of kills. It was kind of sad because whatever these guys did, they were literally unkillable.

And just in case it wasn’t clear, they didn’t kill me. They didn’t do anything. They just stood there healing each other. After a minute or so I just shrugged and left. That isn’t PVP.

TequilaFire wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

So when PvP-ers can't win with "skill", builds, or cheese... they beg ZOS to nerf the opposition.
SMH
After you get tank meta nerfed, maybe the ex-tank-metas will ask ZOS to nerf you back. Fair's fair right?
Then you can all shout at ZOS for swinging the pendulum again and again.

Last night I ran into 3 Templar tanks standing on Alessia Bridge. I engaged because usually in that scenario I’ll take one of them out or at least go out in a blaze of glory losing a fun 1 on 3 battle which isn’t a big deal.

Anyway, as I got closer I thought that they had actually glitched out and would be free kills. Turns out that they weren’t AFK. They were just standing there and despite 50K magic and spell power approaching 4K and an Ice Comet and jabs and radiant and a proc set ... I got nothing.

Best I could do was get one down slightly for like a second before they just burst healed back to 100%. It was one 810 and two other guys who were sub 600 CP.

My toon is fully specced to melt people as best as a Magplar could reasonably be able to do and I have thousands of hours of PVP with tens of thousands of kills. It was kind of sad because whatever these guys did, they were literally unkillable.

And just in case it wasn’t clear, they didn’t kill me. They didn’t do anything. They just stood there healing each other. After a minute or so I just shrugged and left. That isn’t PVP.

That is how you handle them, ignore them. They aren't killing anyone or even generating ap.
If they want to be stupid and just stand in the middle of a bridge, well that is on them.
The only thing they accomplish is distracting players from other objectives.

Yeah, I give everyone one chance to fight but you’re 100% correct. It’s not even worth it.

The sad part is that my Radiant is absurdly powerful so in theory I may be one of the only people who COULD kill them even in a 20 on 20 fight. I couldn’t even imagine the frustration of a PVEr seeing this in PVP. I’m glad I’ve had thousands of good experiences because if that was my first one I’d probably uninstall the game.

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

So when PvP-ers can't win with "skill", builds, or cheese... they beg ZOS to nerf the opposition.
SMH
After you get tank meta nerfed, maybe the ex-tank-metas will ask ZOS to nerf you back. Fair's fair right?
Then you can all shout at ZOS for swinging the pendulum again and again.

Last night I ran into 3 Templar tanks standing on Alessia Bridge. I engaged because usually in that scenario I’ll take one of them out or at least go out in a blaze of glory losing a fun 1 on 3 battle which isn’t a big deal.

Anyway, as I got closer I thought that they had actually glitched out and would be free kills. Turns out that they weren’t AFK. They were just standing there and despite 50K magic and spell power approaching 4K and an Ice Comet and jabs and radiant and a proc set ... I got nothing.

Best I could do was get one down slightly for like a second before they just burst healed back to 100%. It was one 810 and two other guys who were sub 600 CP.

My toon is fully specced to melt people as best as a Magplar could reasonably be able to do and I have thousands of hours of PVP with tens of thousands of kills. It was kind of sad because whatever these guys did, they were literally unkillable.

And just in case it wasn’t clear, they didn’t kill me. They didn’t do anything. They just stood there healing each other. After a minute or so I just shrugged and left. That isn’t PVP.

That is how you handle them, ignore them. They aren't killing anyone or even generating ap.
If they want to be stupid and just stand in the middle of a bridge, well that is on them.
The only thing they accomplish is distracting players from other objectives.

Yeah, I give everyone one chance to fight but you’re 100% correct. It’s not even worth it.

The sad part is that my Radiant is absurdly powerful so in theory I may be one of the only people who COULD kill them even in a 20 on 20 fight. I couldn’t even imagine the frustration of a PVEr seeing this in PVP. I’m glad I’ve had thousands of good experiences because if that was my first one I’d probably uninstall the game.

Thats exactly the problem, These high HP SNB tanks are just punching bags nobody wants to punch. Last week me and 2 of my other mates found this 50k magplar in cyro. We wanted him to kill us because we needed to bloodport. he spend atleast a FULL 2 minutes killing one of my friends when he was just standing there doing nothing. These players are built like a truck yet hit like a snail. Its not an exaggeration when i say NOBODY wants to fight them.

I even whispered him afterwards (not even in a toxic way) & his only response was "You mad bro"

Heavy armor is not really the problem. The issue is the way the healing output, damage output and damage mitigation are handled. Because both healing output and damage output scales off weapon/sell damage and resource pool size; it creates a problem where there is no need to invest in healing as a standalone value. So, builds can just maximize their weapon/sell damage and resource pool size using two item sets. Then use one monster set, defensive buffs such as major resolve, minor/major protection, and spell/physical resistance potions to make up for the lack of defense in the build. This creates a build where there is no requirement to use item sets to obtain defensive stats and/or healing.

The easiest way they could resolve the problem without having to do a ton of re-itemization would to be first remove resource pool size value from the damage/healing calculations and only use weapon/sell damage to scale the damage output. Then create a new stat that functions like weapon/sell damage but call it restoration power and scale healing output off that stat. Then place restoration power on sets that are intended to increase all forms healing output.

They could make these sets light/med/heavy and it would be fine. Players would have pick up a healing set if they wanted to crease their base healing output, they could no longer just stack weapon/sell damage if their build is more dps based, or resource pool size if their build is more attrition based.

The next step would be to remove major resolve from the game and reduce the amount of armor resistance that two piece sets like bloodspawn provide and the spell/physical resistance potions. Buffs like major and minor protection could remain but would need an evaluation pass to ensure that in order to maintain the buff in an upstate it requires an appropriate amount of resource expenditure. This would require players to invest into defensive based item sets if they wanted damage mitigation.

Players need to be required to make a concerted effort through item set selection and armor weights (light/med/heavy) investment to significantly increase their damage/healing output and damage mitigation capabilities. When it comes to those attributes item sets and armor weights need to have the largest impact on increasing those values. And each value should only be able to be raised independently.

The system should function where:
If damage output increases, healing output and/or mitigation values decrease.
If healing output increases, damage output and/or mitigation values decrease
If mitigation values increase, damage and/or healing values output decrease.

iCaliban wrote: »

The supposed "tank meta" should not be changed at all. Damage is still incredibly high which is why people build defensive. Complete l2p issue on the part of players complaining about it.

Why do people comment on the forums just to say the generic response of "l2p"

After switching back to noCP camp after few months I can clearly see that this problem is nonexistent in noCP environment. Yes there are tanks that are unkillable in 1v1 but I haven't seen anybody who would be able to facetank 3 or more experienced players.

CPs need rework, there is no point in nerfing sets or armour type because:
A. People will switch to other similar sets and result will be almost the same.
B. Or it will kill tanks completely which is even worse.
M
We already had oblivion, bleeds, defiles, dots. Everything in the end leads to more imbalance and extremely cheesy setups.

CPs need to change. IMHO we should rework CPs from giving passive stats into system that allows to use them to buff active abilities. E.g. you want lower the cost of an ability? Spend thief points on that certain ability. You want stronger ability? Spend mage points on it. But you won't have buffed passive resistances, passive damage and sustain, it won't buff your sets, potions etc. You will be able to slightly adjust your skills, but only this.

Mayrael wrote: »

After switching back to noCP camp after few months I can clearly see that this problem is nonexistent in noCP environment. Yes there are tanks that are unkillable in 1v1 but I haven't seen anybody who would be able to facetank 3 or more experienced players.

CPs need rework, there is no point in nerfing sets or armour type because:
A. People will switch to other similar sets and result will be almost the same.
B. Or it will kill tanks completely which is even worse.
M
We already had oblivion, bleeds, defiles, dots. Everything in the end leads to more imbalance and extremely cheesy setups.

CPs need to change. IMHO we should rework CPs from giving passive stats into system that allows to use them to buff active abilities. E.g. you want lower the cost of an ability? Spend thief points on that certain ability. You want stronger ability? Spend mage points on it. But you won't have buffed passive resistances, passive damage and sustain, it won't buff your sets, potions etc. You will be able to slightly adjust your skills, but only this.

I believe that's the direction they should go with CP as well: allow players to invest in specific abilities instead of broad and blanket increases in certain areas. Not only would it help alleviate the balance issues, but I believe it would also be more interesting and lead to a greater variety of personalized builds.