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How to get rid of tank meta?
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Sergykid✭✭✭✭✭
✭DCZergNoob wrote: »
Because you want to nerf something that affects only a tiny portion of the game population.
not that, but CP pvp has always been and always will be imbalanced. There will always be something OP there. Sure in no CP there also is meta, but it's not as impactful-PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube1 -
Emmagoldman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sounds like you need to go over to nocp. Some people like the tankier feel of cp, the higher regen and long fights. Chasing 1 person around a tower......how fun! But to each their own.
With cp, you can go HA because you have much higher regen and HA weaving has a strong return. Its better to have higher wpn dmg because of cp modifiers which some of the HA sets have.
In nocp, fights are shorter as people do run out of resources. Bleed and proc builds are stronger while going for dmg set ups are viable too. Regen is also way more important.
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NotaDaedraWorshipper✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭These changes wouldn't cause severe issues and outrage in PvE. Nope, none at all /sarcasm.[Lie] Of course! I don't even worship Daedra!4 -
DCZergNoob✭✭✭Emmagoldman wrote: »Sounds like you need to go over to nocp. Some people like the tankier feel of cp, the higher regen and long fights. Chasing 1 person around a tower......how fun! But to each their own.
With cp, you can go HA because you have much higher regen and HA weaving has a strong return. Its better to have higher wpn dmg because of cp modifiers which some of the HA sets have.
In nocp, fights are shorter as people do run out of resources. Bleed and proc builds are stronger while going for dmg set ups are viable too. Regen is also way more important.
non CP campaign you run around for an hour before you find a fight. Its either 1 bot or 20 bots you verse
Battlegrounds you either get put in a game where you literally roll everybody in the entire game, go like 40/1 and the 2nd highest kills will have like 4 kills......Or full premades where everyone builds....for premades, Not that different to Kaal ATM
I'll pass thanks1 -
DCZergNoob✭✭✭DCZergNoob wrote: »
Because you want to nerf something that affects only a tiny portion of the game population.
Lmao, endgame pvp wether it be cp or no cp is a solid 50% of the endgame, Just as how endgame PVE & trials make up the other 50%
Saying otherwise is obnoxious1 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭There is no tank meta. There is a "bring more numbers" meta. As long as your strategy is solely to overwhelm enemies with numbers and/or force flip flags, you don't really need to have damage, so you can invest heavily in mitigation. Bringing 60 people to a mostly empty keep is the Cyrodiil version of the Alik'r dolmen zerg.
People tank up and stack numbers for very good reasons: One, there's no downside. Anything that works against a large group works better FOR the large group. Two, the other factions are also doing it. Three, terrible performance makes building more defensively and running larger groups sensible. If your CC break or heal ain't gonna fire, there's a bigger chance your ally is healing or purging you while you are lag-locked if you have more allies nearby.
Sources of mitigation include:
high health
high resists -- including but not limited to heavy armor
buffs like Minor/Major Protection
debuffs like Minor/Major Maim
blocking
dodging
shields
heals over time and cross healing
speed
You can't go hurr durr let's gut heavy armor and the tank meta will go away. Heavy armor is only one small factor. Fury has been nerfed. It's fine now. Let it go. If you are dying to a "tank" you are failing to mitigate their damage effectively while failing to counter their mitigation. And if it's a true tank that can't kill you, you can just walk away.
Perhaps more importantly is that the archetype of a heavy fighter is very common across many games. If anything, this archetype is weak on the magicka side in ESO. Sap tanks and blazing shield builds were good examples of magicka heavy fighters that have been killed off. (Block casting 4k Breath of Life in heavy is *not* a heavy fighter, it's a speed bump.)3 -
Hamish999✭✭✭✭✭
✭DCZergNoob wrote: »DCZergNoob wrote: »
Because you want to nerf something that affects only a tiny portion of the game population.
Lmao, endgame pvp wether it be cp or no cp is a solid 50% of the endgame, Just as how endgame PVE & trials make up the other 50%
Saying otherwise is obnoxious
And endgame (PvP and PvE) is at most 5% of the player base :shrug:PC-EUDo'Zahra - Khajiit - StamDK - AD
Narese Telvanni - Dunmer - Petsorc - EP
Anastasie Chastain - Breton - Magplar - DC
Gashnakh the Lusty - Orc - Stamsorc - AD
Stands-In-Stoopid - Argonian - Warden Tank - AD
Talia al-Morwha - Redguard - Stamden - AD
Makes-Fier-Wrong - Argonian - Stamblade - AD
Busty-Argonian-Maid - Argonian - Templar Healer - AD
Alaru Telvanni - Dunmer - Stamplar - AD
Ko'Raehsi - Khajiit - Magsorc - AD
Torhild Rock-Chucker - Nord - StamDK - AD
Drusilla Larouche - Breton - MagDK - AD
Ko'Khanni - Khajiit - Magden - AD
Ilithyia Ectorius - Imperial - DK Tank -AD
Rosara Laumont - Breton - Warden Healer - AD
Do'Darri - Khajiit - Stam Arcanist - AD
Llerusa Redoran - Dunmer - Stam Arcanist - AD
Terannil - High Elf - Magsorc - AD
Sharuk the Indomitable - Orc - Necro - AD
Keyboard and mouse FTW!7 -
barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DCZergNoob wrote: »
You are not allowed to talk about things when your view makes perfect sense and other people have no good answer in rebuttal.
I think it's a law.
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DeathPK✭✭✭frozzzen101 wrote: »You will NEVER ever get rid of tank meta in pvp. Let me repeat that in clearer words: you can flip Cyrodil upside down, but you will never get rid of HA zergs, because for that segment of population, which is in fact biggest segment of cyro players, only thing that matters is to survive. Damage will come from swarming others, so naturally they will invest into heavy armor, impen and healing so they can stay alive and participate in pvp. Damage? Who cares, other guys will do it and as long as I'm alive I can fight. And this mindset is true for new players dipping their feet in pvp, and casual pvpers that are mostly pve focused. So yeah, majority of pvp folks. They don't care about 1vX, they only peripherally care about AP and all they care about is having fun and participation in pvp.
So to answer your question, only way you will get rid of tank meta in pvp is to get rid of pvp itself.
well tank meta didn't even exist until 1 tam, you would be laughed at if u ran heavy armor before then.0 -
khajiitNPC✭✭✭✭✭People complaining about the tank meta need to stop — or learn to cc at the right moments. Idk. Here’s some protips. If it’s ball group vs ball group or zerg vs zerg. You can either A. Use the tank to build up ult or B. Ignore the tank and focus the squishy. Once you’ve show their group how truly useless a tank like this is, proceed to time cc and group focus useless tank. If it’s a tank tethered to a healer. Kill healer. If you’re in a ball group have someone equip sload and Oblivion enchants. If it’s a group of tanks that can only kill through ults, negate them! Once the healers go down the rest will follow.
If it’s solo why even engage? They will just stand there and hold block. Derp derp.1 -
khajiitNPC✭✭✭✭✭Outside of that 1v1 some people are just better than you. If I get killed I’m like “damn that person was good”.1
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OolongSnakeTea✭✭✭✭The big problem is the balance of PVP and PVE.
maybe if they took a page out of GW2 and had things do things only in PVP and only in PVE, they could balance things easier."I try to create sympathy for my characters, then turn the monsters loose."– Stephen King4 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If more people learned to bash and interrupt the tanks heals they would go down faster.3 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭The tank meta problem wasn’t an issue with scalebreaker everyone died. Yet because of that people complained dots were too strong and no sooner they nerf them the can’t kill players complaints came rolling in again.
What people need to realize cyrodil and BGs are pvp players die. Instead of asking for nerfs should have asked for buffs to the counters. Basically hots are not direct counter to dots purge is yet purge wasn’t really brought in line with dot buffs3 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DCZergNoob wrote: »
Because you want to nerf something that affects only a tiny portion of the game population.
CP Cyrodiil is the largest PVP population and I dont think it's even close.2 -
GrimTheReaper45✭✭✭✭✭I havent played pvp in a while, have been on and off playing eso this last year. It the tank meta is still the same though I would suggest adjusting heavy damage sets. They could also use battle spirit to reduce damage in heavy.1
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Gatdangmayne✭✭✭✭I used to ALWAYS say medium was superior to heavy.
Until recently, when i tried out 7 heavy, 5/2, and 5/1/1 setups. I used to think there's no way you can sustain AND have good damage in heavy.
I was wrong. I tried multiple setups on both nord stamden and dark elf stamblade, and to my surprise, though my regen stat was lower, i had no issue sustaining - and having as high or higher weapon damage than in medium.
My stamblade was harder to sustain, as the loss of 4k resists between dark elf and nord is huge, so more healing and dodging was needed.
This is also with the steed mundus, so my movement speed was basically the same.
I still think medium is the better choice for certain builds, but for my playstyle (and my lag) heavy is better for warden, sorc, dk definitely.
Basically, i disagree with the op.
As with everything in this game, if you're trying to make a build, it has to be tailored to your playstyle, your race, your class, and your sets - but pretty much anything and everything can work in pvp with some imagination.
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Crixus8000✭✭✭✭✭
✭People still complaining about the tanky meta ? It has been nerfed many times already.
My dizzy swing damage has been nerfed hard and I'm playing orc so getting -500 weapon damage than normal and I still have no issues killing people. Seems like just a cp problem, so why not move to no cp instead of trying to get things nerfed for no reason.
But I do agree medium sneak passive is bad. It only affects one class in the game and only one playstyle of that class, I would be happy with a change to that. Actually this passive is the only reason I don't use medium lol.
Edited by Crixus8000 on November 3, 2019 6:36PM1 -
WillhelmBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sneak passive is just for PvE questing which is ridiculous. Change it to penetration like light armour has.
I like all your suggestions OP.PC EU1 -
Moonsorrow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Crixus8000 wrote: »I'm playing orc so getting -500 weapon damage than normal
Hope that thing gets fixed fast, i know many people who been super salty about it. 1 -
WoppaBoem✭✭✭✭✭Its very simple, nerf the damage so there is a strong need to run medium or light. If you can have high damage in heavy no reason to do anything else.
And I think the real culprits are, DW Blackrose Prison, Mist form. Tackle those and those unkillable players will become much more killable.Xbox EU & NA - PVP Only1 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DCZergNoob wrote: »
Lmao, endgame pvp wether it be cp or no cp is a solid 50% of the endgame, Just as how endgame PVE & trials make up the other 50%
Saying otherwise is obnoxious
50% of 5% of a Population, and probably 5% of DLC and 3% of monetary = endgame.
There is a reason there is a lot of PVE DLC's and, well not that much for PvP. It doesn't make as much money as people think, otherwise Cash Shop would be all over PvP.1 -
Canned_Apples✭✭✭✭✭
✭CP is popular because CP is popular.
It's because of CP that these high damage, high sustain, and high survivability builds are possible.
It also doesn't help that they nerfed defile.1 -
Emmagoldman✭✭✭✭✭
✭DCZergNoob wrote: »Emmagoldman wrote: »Sounds like you need to go over to nocp. Some people like the tankier feel of cp, the higher regen and long fights. Chasing 1 person around a tower......how fun! But to each their own.
With cp, you can go HA because you have much higher regen and HA weaving has a strong return. Its better to have higher wpn dmg because of cp modifiers which some of the HA sets have.
In nocp, fights are shorter as people do run out of resources. Bleed and proc builds are stronger while going for dmg set ups are viable too. Regen is also way more important.
non CP campaign you run around for an hour before you find a fight. Its either 1 bot or 20 bots you verse
Battlegrounds you either get put in a game where you literally roll everybody in the entire game, go like 40/1 and the 2nd highest kills will have like 4 kills......Or full premades where everyone builds....for premades, Not that different to Kaal ATM
I'll pass thanks
Thats hyperbole (well for pcna) so who knows maybe on consoule its true. its active enough and far from dead. Again though, im not sure if calling for nerfs is needed. I kind of feel if you like the high regen, long fights, and tankiness, then make home at cp, and if you want game play that is more precise where resources matter, then go nocp.
For bgs, when your in higher mmr, it becomes more competitive and you wont have many matches in which your slam dunking the whole other team.
Really, why not try out nocp for a campaign? You get rid of all the opinionated crap from the forums and you get to make your own opinion.0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think people point to heavy armor sets when theres other ways to get resists up. If you go from 5 heavy 2medium to 5 medium 2 heavy using big pieces for heavy, you lose what? Maybe 3k armor? 1 piece of a monster helm almost recovers that. 2 piece BS on proc surely does. Yeah, people run that stuff with heavy as well to be extra tanky but my point is, it's not just armor weight. They kind of addressed what you get from armor increases in set bonuses on some things like fortified brass, but they could use upping what damage you get from medium. Light doesnt seem that bad so maybe look at its passives. And why do 2 passives in heavy and light require 5 pieces while medium only has 1?
CP also amplifies it in reducing the need for sustain sets and also, while there seems to be an equal part and counter part to damage and defense, healing seems to be in the damage pool when really it should be part of a defensive pool to compete in that area.
I'd also like to see more armor penetration abilities and more defiles as well since a lot of it is healing. Can easily adjust PVP without hurting PVE by giving players more tools to counter each otherEdited by technohic on November 3, 2019 7:30PM1 -
lagrue✭✭✭✭✭
✭So you wanna 1 shot ppl?
Typical pvp whine. Zerglings had trouble killing someone and then asking nerfs in forums. How about l2p?
Buddy there's a difference between one shotting people and what's going on now.
A single tank built right can survive the continued attacks of an entire Zerg for a lengthy period of time. Not only this because there's so many attacking oriented heavy sets now, these guys get the luxury of being able to drop anybody who isn't in heavy armor, while also being practically invincible to people for the better part of a minute. I'm assuming you just haven't set foot in PVP recently to see the state of things. Tanks are practically invincible in every 1 on 1 scenario, and are a huge nuisance even for groups to deal with.
Heavy meta is real, and it's broken.
It's a bit absurd. It should be possible to go 1 on 1 with any class or build. That's how a balanced PVP works. 1 player yeeting on 16 others by taking no damage isn't balanced or fun.Edited by lagrue on November 3, 2019 8:25PM"You must defeat me every time. I need defeat you only once"2 -
psypanda✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »If more people learned to bash and interrupt the tanks heals they would go down faster.
plz tell me how you bash/cc someone stacking 2 hot sets and casting immovable on cooldown.
id really like to see thatPresident of the official Lucina Civello Fanclub2 -
Vlad9425✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bring back pre nerf sloads and viper and wave tank meta goodbye. This is never going to happen though so get used to tank meta I guess.3 -
Thrasher91604✭✭✭✭✭Reduce ability of tanks to do damage via ultimates and synergies will make them less viable.3