Langeston wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Players that are good/competitive always go for the best class for the meta, while players that play more casually, play whatever class they feel like, which creates a disproportional illusion between classes power, since the majority of good players play meta.

A good example is NB, most NBs in BG don't play with their team, they go solo ganking and don't contribute much. You can definitly build a NB for group play though. You can make Stamblade work similar to StamSorc DPS but more tanky and a bit more options in terms of utility (ult heal / aoe undodgeable ult stun / maim / minor vul ). Magblades should be playing more defensive and together with their team (ball grouping), and using their heal ult when necessary. You don't need to play as a healer per say as magblade - just more defensive.

My Magsorc build isn't even close to meta, but I was looking at the tooltips on it's skills compared to my Magblade's and it's amazing how big the difference is. The Sorc has over 600 less effective spell power, but it vastly outperforms the Magblade, and it has defenses that absolutely put it to shame. (And the Sorc skills are laughably easy compared to the Magblade — it's like the toon is on autopilot.)

This is officially now the 100000000th nerf sorcs thread.

If anything, it's a "buff magblades" thread, but it's not that either. Try rereading the OP again.

I literally quoted a guy introducing the usual: "I have a sorc (usually it's not true) and it's so easy it plays by itself" stuff. In the next replies he keeps adding to it. Do the math.


*How to detect people faking sorc: how is someone who is sane supposed to spend months learning, gearing and fine tuning his main or 2nd main PvP character and then openly put it on a stake for being burned and nerfed into the ground. And always, ALWAYS have a NB to prop up. Have yet to see a sorc nerf thread made by a DK or a warden.

You were saying?
My first toon was a Magsorc. Then I leveled a Stamblade, & I liked that class so much that I decided to try a Magblade. Then I tried making a hybrid Nightblade with a Dunmer that didn't really work how I hoped it would. I rarely play the sorc anymore because it's so boring.

I like that Nightblades are the most difficult class in the game, because I actually feel a sense of accomplishment when I get kills against classes that are clearly stronger than mine. But at this point, the class is so butchered that it's taken a lot of the fun out of it. I know some NBs are still killing it, but that's the exception to the rule.

FYI: The OP and the guy you quoted are the same person.

[edit] The only reason I didn't talk about the other classes is because I haven't played them, only against them. I think Templars & DKs are at the same level as Sorcs, but I wouldn't know for sure until I actually leveled & played them both. All I know is, my Sorc puts out damage that my Stam/Mag blades can only dream of, and the skills are infinitely easier to use.

[edit 2]

Have yet to see a sorc nerf thread made by a DK or a warden.

Again, this is not a "sorc nerf" thread.

Has 3 NBs, does not play a sorc for [reasons], wants sorcs nerfed.

I have a magblade, which I found to be (at the time) too OP in PvE and stopped playing her. I've never gone to the forums asking to nerf her though.

Edit:
I always think: "there are people who, like me, have endured buffs and nerfs since beta and now their main (NBs included) has got all the achievements, all the best gear, all the care and love". Who am I to demand them to be butchered?
If ESO allowed at least to share / transfer books and achievements, it'd make the task of abandoning a task less of a pain. But it doesn't.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Players that are good/competitive always go for the best class for the meta, while players that play more casually, play whatever class they feel like, which creates a disproportional illusion between classes power, since the majority of good players play meta.

A good example is NB, most NBs in BG don't play with their team, they go solo ganking and don't contribute much. You can definitly build a NB for group play though. You can make Stamblade work similar to StamSorc DPS but more tanky and a bit more options in terms of utility (ult heal / aoe undodgeable ult stun / maim / minor vul ). Magblades should be playing more defensive and together with their team (ball grouping), and using their heal ult when necessary. You don't need to play as a healer per say as magblade - just more defensive.

My Magsorc build isn't even close to meta, but I was looking at the tooltips on it's skills compared to my Magblade's and it's amazing how big the difference is. The Sorc has over 600 less effective spell power, but it vastly outperforms the Magblade, and it has defenses that absolutely put it to shame. (And the Sorc skills are laughably easy compared to the Magblade — it's like the toon is on autopilot.)

This is officially now the 100000000th nerf sorcs thread.

If anything, it's a "buff magblades" thread, but it's not that either. Try rereading the OP again.

I literally quoted a guy introducing the usual: "I have a sorc (usually it's not true) and it's so easy it plays by itself" stuff. In the next replies he keeps adding to it. Do the math.


*How to detect people faking sorc: how is someone who is sane supposed to spend months learning, gearing and fine tuning his main or 2nd main PvP character and then openly put it on a stake for being burned and nerfed into the ground. And always, ALWAYS have a NB to prop up. Have yet to see a sorc nerf thread made by a DK or a warden.

You were saying?
My first toon was a Magsorc. Then I leveled a Stamblade, & I liked that class so much that I decided to try a Magblade. Then I tried making a hybrid Nightblade with a Dunmer that didn't really work how I hoped it would. I rarely play the sorc anymore because it's so boring.

I like that Nightblades are the most difficult class in the game, because I actually feel a sense of accomplishment when I get kills against classes that are clearly stronger than mine. But at this point, the class is so butchered that it's taken a lot of the fun out of it. I know some NBs are still killing it, but that's the exception to the rule.

FYI: The OP and the guy you quoted are the same person.

[edit] The only reason I didn't talk about the other classes is because I haven't played them, only against them. I think Templars & DKs are at the same level as Sorcs, but I wouldn't know for sure until I actually leveled & played them both. All I know is, my Sorc puts out damage that my Stam/Mag blades can only dream of, and the skills are infinitely easier to use.

[edit 2]

Have yet to see a sorc nerf thread made by a DK or a warden.

Again, this is not a "sorc nerf" thread.

Has 3 NBs, does not play a sorc for [reasons], wants sorcs nerfed.

I have a magblade, which I found to be (at the time) too OP in PvE and stopped playing her. I've never gone to the forums asking to nerf her though.

Edit:
I always think: "there are people who, like me, have endured buffs and nerfs since beta and now their main (NBs included) has got all the achievements, all the best gear, all the care and love". Who am I to demand them to be butchered?
If ESO allowed at least to share / transfer books and achievements, it'd make the task of abandoning a task less of a pain. But it doesn't.

See, this is why people find sorcs so annoying. You can’t discuss anything in the game without a sorc crying about something and then saying people are trying to nerf them.

Then they’ll call everyone else’s abilities too powerful, like cloak threads, or wings, or snipe, or dizzy. Meanwhile they’ll talk like their performance is because they’re an amazing player and no one else has a right to comment.

If you feel like your class is under attack from all the other classes it’s because Sorcs turn things into a Sorc vs everyone confrontation no matter how things start. Most sorcs don’t acknowledge their class is good at anything, play up everyone else’s abilities, and then act like they’re amazing players. When PTS started Templar OP was the forum mantra, with every sorc post everything gets a little bit closer to a nerf sorc one, just because it’s hard not to argue against all the ridiculous things Sorcs say.

Shocker I know but if if Sorc players are always talking up other class’ abilities, never acknowledge their own class’ strengths, and topping it off with their performance as a metric of skill while only playing a sorc it naturally draws attention to the sorc class. Sorcs need to take a page from DK and fly under the radar.

Qbiken wrote: »

Tbh, most games (especially high mmr) are lost due to your team having poor positioning and failing to pre-kite in order to "3rd-party" one of the other teams.

Team composition is important and has an impact (for example, a full melee team can have a hard time against a full ranged team), but most of that can be compensated by having proper positioning.

I very much agree, group comp is the most important thing. I still say the best way to balance BGs in quick order is to add a dungeon finder-like role-based queue.

Of course range vs melee is probably the most consequential "role". I do look forward to the new Stone Fist possibly giving me something to do as a melee brawler with ranged teammates, mostly I'm useless with a full ranged team.

@Bashev

All true. It's mostly just the only way I can think to address the largest imbalance in random teams, which is whether you get a healer or not.

Bashev wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Tbh, most games (especially high mmr) are lost due to your team having poor positioning and failing to pre-kite in order to "3rd-party" one of the other teams.

Team composition is important and has an impact (for example, a full melee team can have a hard time against a full ranged team), but most of that can be compensated by having proper positioning.

I very much agree, group comp is the most important thing. I still say the best way to balance BGs in quick order is to add a dungeon finder-like role-based queue.

Of course range vs melee is probably the most consequential "role". I do look forward to the new Stone Fist possibly giving me something to do as a melee brawler with ranged teammates, mostly I'm useless with a full ranged team.

This with the roles is not going to work because ppl will queue what has faster queue time. Then if you want to kick someone you will be still 3 ppl.

What could work is if ZoS track each character average dps/healing/taking damage per game and based on that info make the groups. It will be a lot of work and I really doubt that they will do it.

Doesn't work either.

If I'm solo, I'll do anywhere from 1.5M - 2.5M damage in a game, depending on duration.
If I went into a 4 man of players roughly the same skill as me, we just 1 bang everyone and I end up with like 600k damage.

Way too much data to store, retrieve and process each time and also not reflective given the above example.

On Xbox Eu it's not classes - It's names. If you see 4 names in the same team, you can quickly assert whether they're together or not and at that point know you've got an uphill battle, but it's never the be-all-end-all, not even close.

If I see Templars, I make it my personal goal to kill them and assert dominance, I'm not scared of them, I welcome them.

I was playing with a sorc the other day, we came into a game against a 4man (Good players on their own classes) of FOTM Templars (The ones that /w you how ez and meta it is when you smack them) - He slotted Negate, they completely lost their minds and we dropped their whole group between us every time until all but 1 of them left the game, the other just kept jumping from spawn and standing there.

I got back to Auridon duel spot and was just met with a barrage of /z messages telling me how *** I was.

Nobody is impossible to kill and nor is a team.

Langeston wrote: »

So, for the last time: I am not looking for nerfs, I am looking for is parity. In my opinion, all that needs to happen is a buff to NBs & maybe Necros. Your precious Sorc doesn't have to get touched at all! If you can't understand that I don't know what to tell you, but this back and forth with you is tiresome.

I've not read your whole convo with that dude but let me tell you, Hide-and-Seek blades on Xbox that jump you, put down a barrage and try get the burst off before scurrying into the safety of shadows until it's up again, hold their own. You can't kill what you can't see and since the dawn of ESO they've been able to bang out big burst.

It's a weak playstyle imo, but dipping in and out is the NB mantra and if you are good at it, you're good at it.

Bashev wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Tbh, most games (especially high mmr) are lost due to your team having poor positioning and failing to pre-kite in order to "3rd-party" one of the other teams.

Team composition is important and has an impact (for example, a full melee team can have a hard time against a full ranged team), but most of that can be compensated by having proper positioning.

I very much agree, group comp is the most important thing. I still say the best way to balance BGs in quick order is to add a dungeon finder-like role-based queue.

Of course range vs melee is probably the most consequential "role". I do look forward to the new Stone Fist possibly giving me something to do as a melee brawler with ranged teammates, mostly I'm useless with a full ranged team.

This with the roles is not going to work because ppl will queue what has faster queue time. Then if you want to kick someone you will be still 3 ppl.

What could work is if ZoS track each character average dps/healing/taking damage per game and based on that info make the groups. It will be a lot of work and I really doubt that they will do it.

Doesn't work either.

If I'm solo, I'll do anywhere from 1.5M - 2.5M damage in a game, depending on duration.
If I went into a 4 man of players roughly the same skill as me, we just 1 bang everyone and I end up with like 600k damage.

Way too much data to store, retrieve and process each time and also not reflective given the above example.

On Xbox Eu it's not classes - It's names. If you see 4 names in the same team, you can quickly assert whether they're together or not and at that point know you've got an uphill battle, but it's never the be-all-end-all, not even close.

If I see Templars, I make it my personal goal to kill them and assert dominance, I'm not scared of them, I welcome them.

I was playing with a sorc the other day, we came into a game against a 4man (Good players on their own classes) of FOTM Templars (The ones that /w you how ez and meta it is when you smack them) - He slotted Negate, they completely lost their minds and we dropped their whole group between us every time until all but 1 of them left the game, the other just kept jumping from spawn and standing there.

I got back to Auridon duel spot and was just met with a barrage of /z messages telling me how *** I was.

Nobody is impossible to kill and nor is a team.

Langeston wrote: »

So, for the last time: I am not looking for nerfs, I am looking for is parity. In my opinion, all that needs to happen is a buff to NBs & maybe Necros. Your precious Sorc doesn't have to get touched at all! If you can't understand that I don't know what to tell you, but this back and forth with you is tiresome.

I've not read your whole convo with that dude but let me tell you, Hide-and-Seek blades on Xbox that jump you, put down a barrage and try get the burst off before scurrying into the safety of shadows until it's up again, hold their own. You can't kill what you can't see and since the dawn of ESO they've been able to bang out big burst.

It's a weak playstyle imo, but dipping in and out is the NB mantra and if you are good at it, you're good at it.

That damage and healing could be converted per second. When you finish with 600k damage most of the time it is 7 minutes games.

There are ways to do the calculations if want. The problem is that ZoS doesnt care so much for Battlegrounds, there is almost no way for them to make money from that mode.

Yeah it'd become too tricky to program against user scenarios.

As it is now, high MMR players can just slay out during games and ignore the PvO to (what feels like) bring your Q times and average competition level down - Completely ruining everyone in there and some of their experiences, without ever caring about winning.

If that's how it worked, strong teams could just hold relics and move, play out 10min games with 300k damage etc. Average less than guys doing 100k damage in 5 minute games etc; In turn get matched up against weak players, smash all the way up, then drop it down again over and over.

Not sure if you ever played Fifa, but you knew your Division and from Div 1 could just forfeit games until you were back into Div 8 then pummel people all the way back up, taking the extra rewards for doing so - Same thing essentially.

Not much you can do about it programatically, without some serious depth.

Royalthought wrote: »

See a dk: He's going to war with us. Hard to kill and big damage.

See a templar: He's going to war with us. Hard to kill, big damage and he might also heal us.

See a nightblade: ........................................................
We're on our own. Lol

Funny as that is, when I see NB on PC-EU I assume Magblade immortal healer pumping 2m heals per BG. So many of them out here, they are a pain in the arse to play against and such a joy to play with.

Iskiab wrote: »

[ IDK if you need a healer, just group focused players. Four players running around in dueling specs will always lose to four players in group focused specs. The teams without a healer in group focused specs are also stronger than 3x dueling specs and a healer.

Yeah, true, but 3x group focused specs and a healer beats 4x group focused specs, don't you think?

Urzigurumash wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

It's just that I'd gladly take being the worst bg class if the class actually behaved as advertised.

The chief cause of this would be what in your view, if you could articulate? The nerf to Incap?

The chief cause is "play as you want" philosophy dictating where power can be budgeted in the class.

I can accept removing the stun from incap. I can accept removing major fracture of SA. I can accept removing minor beserk and minor endurance from grim focus. High damage spammables probably shouldn't get a free armor reduction increase for no cost. The strongest tooltip in the kit probably shouldn't give an 8% damage buff and 15% resource buff. A 70 cost ult probably shouldn't stun and defile. These nerfs are frustrating, but I understood why ZOS felt those skills were overloaded.

What I can't accept are things like taking major expedition off cripple, or giving dark cloak minor protection and a hot that scales of health , or adding the 10% damage mitigation (initially 15) to grim focus. Notice how the last two things mentioned are straight buffs. I've made my peace with the fact that nerfs or buffs are always a part of games like this. I do not care about that. What I can't stand are changes being made to the class, that are then compensated in ways that have nothing to do with the what the class is about.

This is why, and I know I'm in the minority on this one, I am against an in-class burst heal for mag nightblades that doesn't require interaction with the enemy. Both grim focus and soul shred require actually attacking the enemy, so I'm fine with those since they fit the siphoning theme. However, between shades, cloak, major expedition from twisting path (which should be on cripple), cripple, fear, soul siphon, and phantasmal escape, people also want to add a generic burst heal? One of two things would happen. The heal would be so strong that the rest of the defensive abilities I listed would have to be gutted, further crippling the class' identity. Or, the skill would be so weak it wouldn't be worth using unless you went out of your way to make it work.

And to be clear, this is not me saying nightblades can't have any skills or passives that don't help with things outside of it's core identity. Blur, mark target, consuming darkness, siphoning, summon shades, veil of blades, swallow soul, and siphoning strikes all have applications that can assist with tanking while not straying from the class identity. However, adding in skills that offer nothing to the class identity so Timmy can tank with his rogue when there are 4 other classes that it's much easier to tank on is ridiculous. Especially when those tools are so strong they directly impact where power can be budgeted to the rest of the class.

Dojohoda wrote: »

It is very telling that even though the class was not mentioned in the OP, posters seemed to know which class is implied.

1) People know what class the OP plays.
2) He also confirmed what class he was asking to buff very early in the thread.
3) I still have no idea which 3 classes he thinks are OP vs the two he thinks are just OK.

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Dojohoda wrote: »

It is very telling that even though the class was not mentioned in the OP, posters seemed to know which class is implied.

1) People know what class the OP plays.
2) He also confirmed what class he was asking to buff very early in the thread.
3) I still have no idea which 3 classes he thinks are OP vs the two he thinks are just OK.

In post #8 the Op agreed with post #5 which answers the question about 2/3.

Maulkin wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

See a dk: He's going to war with us. Hard to kill and big damage.

See a templar: He's going to war with us. Hard to kill, big damage and he might also heal us.

See a nightblade: ........................................................
We're on our own. Lol

Funny as that is, when I see NB on PC-EU I assume Magblade immortal healer pumping 2m heals per BG. So many of them out here, they are a pain in the arse to play against and such a joy to play with.

Is PC-EU behind a patch from PC-NA? This spec on PC-NA went from hero to zero with the protective, pirate smelly nerfs and onslaught. Can’t keep themselves alive and any stamina spec spamming dizzy can take you down.

Dojohoda wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Dojohoda wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Dojohoda wrote: »

It is very telling that even though the class was not mentioned in the OP, posters seemed to know which class is implied.

1) People know what class the OP plays.
2) He also confirmed what class he was asking to buff very early in the thread.
3) I still have no idea which 3 classes he thinks are OP vs the two he thinks are just OK.

In post #8 the Op agreed with post #5 which answers the question about 2/3.

Astute observation. I have only one minor quibble though: I wouldn't say I think that DKs/Sorcs/Templars are "OP," because they are actually exactly where I would like to see all classes be — well-rounded and capable. All I want is for the supposed "burst assassin class" to be able to actually burst, (a self heal would be great too, but I'm not even asking for that) and for ZOS to do whatever they need to do to put Necros at the same level. (I had thought that Wardens needed some love too, but someone said earlier that they are sitting pretty, so I dunno.)

It's just gets exhausting playing a class where you have to look at your opponent's class to determine whether or not you can kill them, unless they just have no clue what they're doing. I feel like no matter what class you are, if you build like a tank you should not be able to put out metric tons of damage — and if you build for insane damage, your defenses should suffer appropriately. (I also feel like healing should be slightly de-tuned in general, but that's not as big of an issue for me.) All I'm looking for is balance.

I agree.

btw, in my post Op refers to Original Poster.

Oh, I know. But you said that post #8 answers question #3, which was:

3) I still have no idea which 3 classes he thinks are OP vs the two he thinks are just OK.

I was merely clarifying that I don't consider those 3 classes OP (his words, not yours), rather I think those 3 should be what ZOS aspires to make all of the classes look like in terms of performance.