When you can tell who is going to win a BG just by looking the classes on each team...

Langeston

...you have a serious balance problem. And you keep buffing the classes that tear it up.

I won't get into specifics, because this isn't a nerf thread — but there are 3 classes that can be indestructible & deal insane damage at the same time, and you keep buffing them. There are two classes on a tier [somewhat significantly] below them, and then you have one God-awful class that everyone complains about when they get one on their team because they know the class sucks.

I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseam, but this game is over 5 years old — we shouldn't have imbalances like that at this point.

Iskiab

Agree but no one’s indestructible. You just need a cc like fear that breaks block.

Tommy_The_Gun

Separate queue / MM for solo players and pre-made groups for BGs.

You add that and call for nerfs threads / cries will end.

Win - win for everyone.

ChunkyCat

i lul @ stamblades

Royalthought

See a dk: He's going to war with us. Hard to kill and big damage.

See a templar: He's going to war with us. Hard to kill, big damage and he might also heal us.

See a nightblade: ........................................................
We're on our own. Lol

the1andonlyskwex

I suspect you won't get consistent answers if you ask 10 random players which classes are in which of the OP's three categories.

What does that say about balance?

Also, is this a complaint about the PTS, or about Live?

Langeston

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I suspect you won't get consistent answers if you ask 10 random players which classes are in which of the OP's three categories.

What does that say about balance?

Also, is this a complaint about the PTS, or about Live?

I think anyone that has played all of the classes knows which 3 are top tier right now — if you get different answers, they probably only play one or two classes. And I'm fairly certain that everyone knows what class is the garbage class. (Right now.)

As for your question, it's about both. One would think that on the PTS the classes would be moving towards some kind of parity, but in reality the opposite is happening.

Langeston

Royalthought wrote: »

See a dk: He's going to war with us. Hard to kill and big damage.

See a templar: He's going to war with us. Hard to kill, big damage and he might also heal us.

See a nightblade: ........................................................
We're on our own. Lol

That about sums it up, lol.

Nordic__Knights

On my nightblade im 89% top of my team regardless of what classes are in my group and 65%of the time im top out of all 3 teams so back off nightblades we all dont run and hide at 1st site of an enemy

Nordic__Knights

Nevasca

Players that are good/competitive always go for the best class for the meta, while players that play more casually, play whatever class they feel like, which creates a disproportional illusion between classes power, since the majority of good players play meta.

A good example is NB, most NBs in BG don't play with their team, they go solo ganking and don't contribute much. You can definitly build a NB for group play though. You can make Stamblade work similar to StamSorc DPS but more tanky and a bit more options in terms of utility (ult heal / aoe undodgeable ult stun / maim / minor vul ). Magblades should be playing more defensive and together with their team (ball grouping), and using their heal ult when necessary. You don't need to play as a healer per say as magblade - just more defensive.

Langeston

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Players that are good/competitive always go for the best class for the meta, while players that play more casually, play whatever class they feel like, which creates a disproportional illusion between classes power, since the majority of good players play meta.

A good example is NB, most NBs in BG don't play with their team, they go solo ganking and don't contribute much. You can definitly build a NB for group play though. You can make Stamblade work similar to StamSorc DPS but more tanky and a bit more options in terms of utility (ult heal / aoe undodgeable ult stun / maim / minor vul ). Magblades should be playing more defensive and together with their team (ball grouping), and using their heal ult when necessary. You don't need to play as a healer per say as magblade - just more defensive.

My issue isn't that there is a meta, it's that there is such a huge divide between it and the worst class. My Magsorc build isn't even close to meta, but I was looking at the tooltips on it's skills compared to my Magblade's and it's amazing how big the difference is. The Sorc has over 600 less effective spell power, but it vastly outperforms the Magblade, and it has defenses that absolutely put it to shame. (And the Sorc skills are laughably easy compared to the Magblade — it's like the toon is on autopilot.) I have to build the Mabgblade like a glass cannon, and it still doesn't even do close to the same damage.

In re: BGs: if Nightblades could insta-heal like the other classes, (or even have a decent burst heal) I think you'd see completely different gameplay. As it stands, their only defense (unless they build like a tank) is cloak — and that is why they have trouble staying in a tight formation. (And cloak is completely deactivated for a quarter minute if someone pops a potion — imagine the screeching if there were potions that did that to shields.)

Like I said in my OP, this isn't a nerf thread, I just wish there was some parity.

Dusk_Coven

Langeston wrote: »

...you have a serious balance problem. And you keep buffing the classes that tear it up.
…
I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseam, but this game is over 5 years old — we shouldn't have imbalances like that at this point.

And this is actually why ZOS should NOT bother to try to balance anything for PvP.

Trying to balance for PvP in ESO is trying to balance against a moving target of builds and team combinations and different situations (BG versus open world versus duels versus whatever). It's more than futile it's idiocy.
Trying to balance for PvE is totally different -- ZOS has full control over the static balance target of NPCs, and most of the time of the encounter arena as well. That means one side of the equation is basically 100% knowable.
Other games that balance for PvP have it easier because they reduce the number of variables -- they focus on matches where there are a limited number of toons per team; they have tight classes without a huge range of choices of what the class can do; etcetera. ESO has far too many variables even from trying to put one class together.

Just let the PvP community come up with their own counters, or play what they think is the OP meta. If everyone's playing the same thing, it's balanced. Complaining about the enemy's build? The enemy's team makeup? Play the same thing.
BUT for people who don't want to do that (remember, ZOS wants to do power fantasy and play your own way), implement proper LEAGUES to sort people.

LEAGUES applies not just to BG but Cyrodiil and IC. Unless you have leagues for open world, there will be too many zergs (you won't eliminate them entirely) and consequently whining about zergs.
Zergs are when people don't want to play a cookie cutter build and want to play their way. So they bunch up and mow down the opposition -- because it works. No different than camping IC sewer doors get people as they transition in -- it works.

Drdeath20

Royalthought wrote: »

See a dk: He's going to war with us. Hard to kill and big damage.

See a templar: He's going to war with us. Hard to kill, big damage and he might also heal us.

See a nightblade: ........................................................
We're on our own. Lol

The rogue class! This has been the mantra of the NBs on the forums for years, especially when they were top dogs.

Juhasow

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Separate queue / MM for solo players and pre-made groups for BGs.

You add that and call for nerfs threads / cries will end.

Win - win for everyone.

Well that would also sucks because I dont see how it's a win for premades to wait an hour for 1 match. Also how would You solve 2-3 man queues. Are they premades also ? But how to queue 3 man team in premade queue if they're only missing 1 person but premade queue is just for groups ?

Zevrro

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Separate queue / MM for solo players and pre-made groups for BGs.

You add that and call for nerfs threads / cries will end.

Win - win for everyone.

Its a bit late for that. The amount of peopling queuing is too low because of all the issues with BGs currently so that would just increase queue times even more. If they did this at release it would be a different story.

Dalsinthus

But then look at the classes that people regularly complain about on the forums and it’s not the classes that rule in pvp - duels, bg, or group play in cyrodiil. I have simply never understood this.

Iskiab

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Players that are good/competitive always go for the best class for the meta, while players that play more casually, play whatever class they feel like, which creates a disproportional illusion between classes power, since the majority of good players play meta.

A good example is NB, most NBs in BG don't play with their team, they go solo ganking and don't contribute much. You can definitly build a NB for group play though. You can make Stamblade work similar to StamSorc DPS but more tanky and a bit more options in terms of utility (ult heal / aoe undodgeable ult stun / maim / minor vul ). Magblades should be playing more defensive and together with their team (ball grouping), and using their heal ult when necessary. You don't need to play as a healer per say as magblade - just more defensive.

Nah, this stopped working. This is basicly my BG setup more focused on healing.

Before pirate smelly was nerfed, dizzy was buffed and onslaught this worked well. In this most recent patch burst is way up, lack of self healing and stamina regen made those specs suboptimal. All you have to do is what most higher MMR players do - add a little speed and spam dizzy. Dying is inevitable.

I’ve coped by using cleanse for a burst heal, but even then it’s feast or famine. You get rocked by stamina and hard counter ranged dot specs. Your team either wins 500 vs sub 200 scores or you die 9 times in a BG.

Add to that if you’re unlucky and get 3 stam on your team you can expect no team healing. I had to drop BGs outside premades to make the style work.

Urzigurumash

Conversely, if you take a look at the scoring screen in DM while the match is ongoing, and you see somebody who has 10 kills, 0 deaths, 0 assists - we know which class that player is, and that class is not now the same as before Scalebreaker.

However, I also feel BGs is the final testing stage of balance. In No CP, everything that isn't CP has a stronger effect on balance than in No CP, clearly, that is to say CP provides something of a normalizing effect on equipment, skills, and passives.

I'm not sure how many people play together in BGs on PTS, so I think seeing how things evolve on live BGs is possibly the only way to test it. Even if a few hundred people play BGs on PTS, it is not until thousands have played against each other that we can measure imbalance.

In my view, it is getting better, but, it was at its all-time best at Elsweyr. Is it because Elsweyr didn't last long enough for an imbalanced meta to emerge? Possibly, and it's also possible my class was favored in that patch, as many seemed to allege. I wish that patch had lasted longer, which seems to be a sentiment echoed by many in the Trials scene as well.

@Littlebluelizard This is a good point that should be considered, however we may possibly look at the performance of players we know are "Best in Class" and who do not switch to the Patch Meta to see how they are doing.

@Dusk_Coven To me this sounds bleak. We almost arrived at this scenario several patches ago, where there was 1 specific build type that was even worth bringing to DM. It turned out that was mostly due to bugs that helped that build immensely. Nobody wants to return to that, not even the people who love that build type I don't think, because they would rather not have every other player in the exact same build as them, and there was little room for commendation or a feeling of success in such an environment.

Langeston

And this is actually why ZOS should NOT bother to try to balance anything for PvP.

Trying to balance for PvP in ESO is trying to balance against a moving target of builds and team combinations and different situations (BG versus open world versus duels versus whatever). It's more than futile it's idiocy.
Trying to balance for PvE is totally different -- ZOS has full control over the static balance target of NPCs, and most of the time of the encounter arena as well. That means one side of the equation is basically 100% knowable.
Other games that balance for PvP have it easier because they reduce the number of variables -- they focus on matches where there are a limited number of toons per team; they have tight classes without a huge range of choices of what the class can do; etcetera. ESO has far too many variables even from trying to put one class together.

Just let the PvP community come up with their own counters, or play what they think is the OP meta. If everyone's playing the same thing, it's balanced. Complaining about the enemy's build? The enemy's team makeup? Play the same thing.
BUT for people who don't want to do that (remember, ZOS wants to do power fantasy and play your own way), implement proper LEAGUES to sort people.

LEAGUES applies not just to BG but Cyrodiil and IC. Unless you have leagues for open world, there will be too many zergs (you won't eliminate them entirely) and consequently whining about zergs.
Zergs are when people don't want to play a cookie cutter build and want to play their way. So they bunch up and mow down the opposition -- because it works. No different than camping IC sewer doors get people as they transition in -- it works.

I'm not even asking for them to to balance for PvP, I'd just like my Magblade's skills to be within spitting distance of my Magsorc's. The Magsorc has ~600 less spell power, but the skills do 2k+ more damage — and they are absurdly easy to use compared to the blade. This isn't just PVP, the Sorc just does more damage all around, with way less spell power. Why would ZOS allow such a glaring deficit?

Urzigurumash

@Langeston

Theoretically the magblade has greater defense / mobility / utility etc. and can employ various tactics and strategies that a magsorc cannot. I think this idea is within the "power fantasy", i.e. we would expect a "pure mage" to have the highest damage output, at the expense of other things which are useful in combat. Perhaps magblades are intended to be a notch below this. Slightly lower raw damage output than a pure mage, but using their blood magic and athletic ability to do things a pure mage cannot.

That's one idea anyhow why simply comparing tooltips from MagSorc to MagBlade can't measure final combat efficacy.

I think the consideration is whether Magblades are worth having on a team in BGs, and whether they feel their "power fantasy" is fulfilled.

technohic

So.i am assuming 1 of the lesser classes in BGs is NB? I think its hard to want them to be both valuable in a group fight while also wanting to retain their assassin/gank role.

What's the other? Necro? I see people want them for ulti dump bursting and I just got done fighting a couple jarls as and 1 of them was tough as hell. Certainly not templar, DK, and sorc. I'm assuming that is the 3. But thered 6 classes and you summarized it as 5.

Dusk_Coven

Langeston wrote: »

I'm not even asking for them to to balance for PvP, I'd just like my Magblade's skills to be within spitting distance of my Magsorc's. The Magsorc has ~600 less spell power, but the skills do 2k+ more damage — and they are absurdly easy to use compared to the blade. This isn't just PVP, the Sorc just does more damage all around, with way less spell power. Why would ZOS allow such a glaring deficit?

There are complications:
- How close would be "close enough"? 1k? 500? 200?
- Under what circumstances? Ever heard of a sorcerer sniper-ganker? No? Exactly.
- Different classes have different utilities. You start equalizing classes everywhere, people start talking wanting other things that other classes have, then you're opening the homogenization can of worms.
ESO wants to have class identity. That's never going to be equally useful everywhere. If you focus on one particular situation, you can always find some shortcoming compared to something else.
Games like SWTOR, they CAN focus on who's underperforming as DPS because pretty much all the skills are strictly about the roles -- dps, tank, and heals. And their damage abilities are not complicated with fancy mechanics. Again, they reduce the variables. Combined with calculating a rotation, they can probably nail it down to a number to compare with benchmarks. Compared to ESO, SWTOR is also incredibly boring.

ESO is more ambitious -- class identity, power fantasy, play your way. And part of this is abilities that are not completely about combat, or not about combat in a simple way. Simply asking for damage equity without a bigger picture view is tricky. And specific to PvP -- you have very different environments -- BG, Cyrodiil, IC (and duels I guess). In each environment, each utility comes into play (or not). Multiply that by builds and team makeup and you can't really call for balancing anything.

This said, there is a wider issue of DPS disparity in ESO. When people can sustain dps on million-Health dummies that is several 10k's more than other builds or players... something is fundamentally screwed up with the design. You can't even properly make end game PvE encounters that way.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

...because they would rather not have every other player in the exact same build as them, and there was little room for commendation or a feeling of success in such an environment.

This situation would resolve itself IF (big huge IF) there were a proper League system. If one build were in fact so incredibly powerful, there would be two types of players in the league:

- everyone playing this build -- they'd get sorted into a league of their own and fight each other till they are bored; or if they don't get bored, great they can keep doing what they are doing

- everyone else -- who would get sorted into other leagues and go back to having fun.
The idea of a League is primarily to sort you into a bracket where in the ideal case you have a 50/50 chance of winning. Not about prizes or global leaderboard or whatever. It's to put you where you have excitement and hopefully fun. Play your way is theoretically possible.

BUT YOU NEED PROPER LEAGUE SORTING. Which is of course easier said than done but the main problem would be people exploiting the system rather than messing about with "balancing". And in some ways it's easier to handle.

Iskiab

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Langeston

Theoretically the magblade has greater defense / mobility / utility etc. and can employ various tactics and strategies that a magsorc cannot. I think this idea is within the "power fantasy", i.e. we would expect a "pure mage" to have the highest damage output, at the expense of other things which are useful in combat. Perhaps magblades are intended to be a notch below this. Slightly lower raw damage output than a pure mage, but using their blood magic and athletic ability to do things a pure mage cannot.

That's one idea anyhow why simply comparing tooltips from MagSorc to MagBlade can't measure final combat efficacy.

I think the consideration is whether Magblades are worth having on a team in BGs, and whether they feel their "power fantasy" is fulfilled.

I see what you’re saying, but damage even though it’s so focused on by magblades isn’t the only issue.

Lack of self healing is the biggest. Sustain is another, most magblades roll around the 2400+ regen mark to be effective in pvp. Without burst you need more recovery to setup kills and magblade defense is costly. It’s way more than you need as a templar or sorc.

Even though magblades and magsorcs can both be ranged so are easiest to draw a comparison between I don’t think it’s helpful to get into a NB vs Sorc thing since both classes have downsides. There’s no point in getting into the utility between the classes because NBs have very little group utility.

A way to differentiate magblades from sorcs would be to make magblades ranged and melee hybrids. A way to do it would be to make magblade defense better (self healing) and things like dw daggers giving spell crit, but IDK how you can do that without buffing other magicka classes. Maybe have melee abilities self heal instead of ranged abilities, IDK.

heng14rwb17_ESO

BAN NB IN BG !

the1andonlyskwex

Iskiab wrote: »

There’s no point in getting into the utility between the classes because NBs have very little group utility.

They may not have what you think of as group utility, but NBs actually have quite a bit.

They can debuff enemies with minor maim, minor vulnerability, and minor magickasteal using class skills, unlike most other classes.

NBs are also the only class that can buff their groupmates with major expedition, minor savagery, and invisibility.

They also have Mark Target, which is the only way to apply both major fracture and major breach in a single cast from outside of melee range (or without running S&B).

Langeston

@Urzigurumash
The only defense a Magblade has is (a) cloak, which is useless for a quarter minute if anyone pops a potion, (or any number of reasons on a long list of reasons cloak fails) or (b) shade, (which I admit I haven't played much with — it never seemed to be within range when I needed it.) Shields are much more reliable than both, and streak is a very powerful defensive tool. (Offensive as well.)

As for mobility, I just don't see it. Streak stuns, is uninterruptible, much faster & gets you much further — whereas cloak only does one thing, and as I said it isn't particularly reliable. Maybe there is something else you were referring to?

I'm not sure what you mean by "utility," could you explain that please?

As for raw damage, it isn't a subtle difference. My sorc positively toasts my blade. Considering they're both supposed to be able to serve as damage dealers in PVE, if there is supposed to be a difference I don't think it should be so pronounced. In PVP, my Sorc can kill builds that my blade can barely even damage. And while the Sorc's skills are seamless., NB skills are clunky AF, if they even work at all. (I'm looking at you, Grim Focus.)

Unfortunately I much prefer the Magblade playstyle, so I stick with it & I really want to make it work. But it's frustrating — for a class that [was] supposed to have the best single target burst damage, it is sorely lacking in that department.

Canned_Apples

Don't know what you're talking about.. every stamina build is exactly the same regardless of their class.

Urzigurumash

@Langeston

@the1andonlyskwex outlined most of what I mean by utility, but also the cloak-group-heal scheme, and also sniping/ganking type play. Utility might not be the right word, I guess I mean "alternative modes" of participating in combat besides spitting out raw damage, whereas a MagSorc is best suited to hover around the perimeter of the fight and unload raw unfocused damage.

Of course I am not saying that MagNBs are in a good place in BGs, the best ones I know haven't been satisfied for quite a while. I am not saying their mobility is superior to a MagSorc, but rather that perhaps it ought to be, to facilitate their stealth-enabled kills and healing.

One way I've thought about things is Damage to Kill ratio. On my StamDK, if I bring an AOE build, my Damage to Kill ratio is lower than if I bring a more dueling-like build (lower as in less kills per point of damage). I've had a rare match where I lead my team in kills, but have the lowest damage sum, and vice versa. I guess I would say I do not think MagSorc is imbalanced just by having the highest damage sum at the end of the match. Things were most egregiously imbalanced when MagSorc had the highest damage sum, the highest kill total, and the lowest death total. Much of this was due to bugged pets, as it turned out.

@Iskiab I might be wrong, but wasn't there a time long ago when MagNBs mostly used Duel Wield & Destro? Now it is usually Destro & Resto?

Also it is interesting how through the last say 5 patches StamDK went from being a pure 1v1 spec to a XvX spec (when Noxious and Carve were at their all-time strongest) to now a fairly balanced class between 1v1 and XvX, but with a slight disposition towards 1v1. The D-Swing nerf may push us back slightly more towards XvX.

evoniee

those class can make a great play at a team game, in the mean that one class bring zero use in team game.
team game i mean is ball group style when all members pretty close with each other.

ironically that one class already got gutted in its single target kill

Bashev

It is not so much the classes but the builds that players use.

If you go in BG deathmatch with a selfish build and all your teammates have also selfish builds you will have hard time.

Most important part in my builds is: my cross healing should be at least 30% of my damage output. Keeping my teammates alive release the pressure on me.