Magicka Sorcs Against Ball of Lightning-Updated

Bergzorn · October 2019

IAVITNI wrote: »

If ZoS played their game at all they would know that BoL/Streak did not need adjustments whereas skills like Boundless, Rune Cage, Daedric Mines, Ensare and pets could have use an overhaul. Instead they allocate resources to pointless endeavours that actually degrade the quality of their game. They are literally paying their staff to reduce the quality of their product.

Please post that paragraph again, I'd like to give it a second agree.

DarkGottbeard · October 2019

I'll never understand why people think disengage has ever been imbalanced. Some classes are meant to be skirmishers. Ball of light is fine.

Streak was buffed so i don't get why everyone thinks it was nerfed. It got a much larger CC area. 3 times wider at the start and 2 times wider half way through. Its only smaller at the very end and you should need to aim to hit someone that far away with a through block stun anyway.

And as far as Cc through block on streak being the same thing as rune cage... thats bs. DK was always able to meteor petrify and no one ever complained. When rune cage was added everyone complained about the RANGE of the combo since it could be performed from miles away. Streak is close range and is now harder to aim at the outskirts of the streak. Its perfectly balanced. And that isnt even mentioning the counterplay available to stop that combo if you arent a potato.

Chilly-McFreeze · October 2019

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

Streak was buffed so i don't get why everyone thinks it was nerfed. It got a much larger CC area. 3 times wider at the start and 2 times wider half way through. Its only smaller at the very end and you should need to aim to hit someone that far away with a through block stun anyway.

But it does not make sense if you assume that BoL = defensive morph and Streak = offensive.

To escape I usually move away, I don't BoL onto them to archieve that. But that is where the stun happens. In an AoE to add.
To follow up with a (melee) combo, I'll streak onto them. But now it's far more difficult to archieve the stun on a moving target (keep the lag in mind) if I want to land on top of them to instantly follow up instead of walking back.

As it is, BoL is superior in defensive scenarios (long absorb, snare removal) and offensive scenarios (better stun where I can easily follow up, gives me breathing room against many magicka builds to get my combo through), whereas streak's only advantages are a bit damage (that doesn't work with stamsorcs CP allocation) and the ability to disrupt while moving away.

Issue isn't only that one morph gets buffed while the other get's harder to use for what it's intended, issue is mainly that it ruffles the formerly clearly intended uses for both morphs. And on top of that people will complain about BoL (rightfully so) which leads to a nerf to it while Streak stays like it is: worse than on live for it's primary use.

I said it before but the easiest way to let streak be the superior offensive move is by turning the cone around. Or just leaving it as it is on live.

E: to add to your " Its only smaller at the very end and you should need to aim to hit someone that far away with a through block stun anyway. ": BoL stuns through block too + it's easier to land. There is close to zero reason to use streak now.

pieratsos · October 2019

BoL absorb is broken but seriously tho, if you are casting it every 4 seconds while maintaining ur shields and ur buffs then u are also not going to kill anyone because you simply won't have time to attack anyone.

It essentially falls into the same concept of going full defence on any class. You are most likely gonna force a stalemate against anyone.

DarkGottbeard · October 2019

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

Streak was buffed so i don't get why everyone thinks it was nerfed. It got a much larger CC area. 3 times wider at the start and 2 times wider half way through. Its only smaller at the very end and you should need to aim to hit someone that far away with a through block stun anyway.

But it does not make sense if you assume that BoL = defensive morph and Streak = offensive.

To escape I usually move away, I don't BoL onto them to archieve that. But that is where the stun happens. In an AoE to add.
To follow up with a (melee) combo, I'll streak onto them. But now it's far more difficult to archieve the stun on a moving target (keep the lag in mind) if I want to land on top of them to instantly follow up instead of walking back.

As it is, BoL is superior in defensive scenarios (long absorb, snare removal) and offensive scenarios (better stun where I can easily follow up, gives me breathing room against many magicka builds to get my combo through), whereas streak's only advantages are a bit damage (that doesn't work with stamsorcs CP allocation) and the ability to disrupt while moving away.

Issue isn't only that one morph gets buffed while the other get's harder to use for what it's intended, issue is mainly that it ruffles the formerly clearly intended uses for both morphs. And on top of that people will complain about BoL (rightfully so) which leads to a nerf to it while Streak stays like it is: worse than on live for it's primary use.

I said it before but the easiest way to let streak be the superior offensive move is by turning the cone around. Or just leaving it as it is on live.

E: to add to your " Its only smaller at the very end and you should need to aim to hit someone that far away with a through block stun anyway. ": BoL stuns through block too + it's easier to land. There is close to zero reason to use streak now.

if bol of light works better for your skill level then use it. That is why you get 2 morphs. But I dont have problems aiming long distance streak stuns and the change makes it more practical to use in a fight provided you can aim, gauge speed and have good spatial reasoning.

iCaliban · October 2019

Sorc skill tree has more dead skills/morphs than any other in the game. In particular for pvp. 2 class roots? Why? A class based heal that is both low, and requires a 35% chance to proc. Shields are all but dead, 1/3 of the skill lines are pets, which people do not like using in pvp, and mostly just serve to irritate people. They also take 2 slots.

As it is now, sorcs require at least a 4 button or even 5 button combo to kill most players, leaving them with precious few slots for a CC , utility skills or healing. And even if we choose to slot those skills.... we cant, since most of the sorc skill tree is bad.

People believe sorc is still good due to the ability to steal kills and crush bad players, but this is not the case. Almost any competent player will destroy any sorc 1 on 1. If it wasnt for endless fury, everyone would realize what a trash tier situation sorc is in.

kolegator · October 2019

iCaliban wrote: »

Sorc skill tree has more dead skills/morphs than any other in the game. In particular for pvp. 2 class roots? Why? A class based heal that is both low, and requires a 35% chance to proc. Shields are all but dead, 1/3 of the skill lines are pets, which people do not like using in pvp, and mostly just serve to irritate people. They also take 2 slots.

As it is now, sorcs require at least a 4 button or even 5 button combo to kill most players, leaving them with precious few slots for a CC , utility skills or healing. And even if we choose to slot those skills.... we cant, since most of the sorc skill tree is bad.

People believe sorc is still good due to the ability to steal kills and crush bad players, but this is not the case. Almost any competent player will destroy any sorc 1 on 1. If it wasnt for endless fury, everyone would realize what a trash tier situation sorc is in.

All true. If you put aside that little that sorcs have now, it would finally be obvious in how bad of a state this class is now. And dueling as a sorc with anyone - forget about it.

kolegator · October 2019

kolegator wrote: »

iCaliban wrote: »

Sorc skill tree has more dead skills/morphs than any other in the game. In particular for pvp. 2 class roots? Why? A class based heal that is both low, and requires a 35% chance to proc. Shields are all but dead, 1/3 of the skill lines are pets, which people do not like using in pvp, and mostly just serve to irritate people. They also take 2 slots.

As it is now, sorcs require at least a 4 button or even 5 button combo to kill most players, leaving them with precious few slots for a CC , utility skills or healing. And even if we choose to slot those skills.... we cant, since most of the sorc skill tree is bad.

People believe sorc is still good due to the ability to steal kills and crush bad players, but this is not the case. Almost any competent player will destroy any sorc 1 on 1. If it wasnt for endless fury, everyone would realize what a trash tier situation sorc is in.

All true. If you put aside that little that sorcs have now, it would finally be obvious in how bad of a state this class is now. And dueling as a sorc with anyone - forget about it. Oh and specially the 4 and 5 button combos, which rarely work as intended because of lags and weird skill cues so the combo usually ends in disaster and random skill triggers at about button no. 3 while the game processes the lag and everything that has happened in the meantime.

IAVITNI · October 2019

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

Streak was buffed so i don't get why everyone thinks it was nerfed. It got a much larger CC area. 3 times wider at the start and 2 times wider half way through. Its only smaller at the very end and you should need to aim to hit someone that far away with a through block stun anyway.

But it does not make sense if you assume that BoL = defensive morph and Streak = offensive.

To escape I usually move away, I don't BoL onto them to archieve that. But that is where the stun happens. In an AoE to add.
To follow up with a (melee) combo, I'll streak onto them. But now it's far more difficult to archieve the stun on a moving target (keep the lag in mind) if I want to land on top of them to instantly follow up instead of walking back.

As it is, BoL is superior in defensive scenarios (long absorb, snare removal) and offensive scenarios (better stun where I can easily follow up, gives me breathing room against many magicka builds to get my combo through), whereas streak's only advantages are a bit damage (that doesn't work with stamsorcs CP allocation) and the ability to disrupt while moving away.

Issue isn't only that one morph gets buffed while the other get's harder to use for what it's intended, issue is mainly that it ruffles the formerly clearly intended uses for both morphs. And on top of that people will complain about BoL (rightfully so) which leads to a nerf to it while Streak stays like it is: worse than on live for it's primary use.

I said it before but the easiest way to let streak be the superior offensive move is by turning the cone around. Or just leaving it as it is on live.

E: to add to your " Its only smaller at the very end and you should need to aim to hit someone that far away with a through block stun anyway. ": BoL stuns through block too + it's easier to land. There is close to zero reason to use streak now.

if bol of light works better for your skill level then use it. That is why you get 2 morphs. But I dont have problems aiming long distance streak stuns and the change makes it more practical to use in a fight provided you can aim, gauge speed and have good spatial reasoning.

Nobody is saying Streak is hard to land. It's just BoL serves as a better offensive stun.

It's not hard to hit Reach but people still use Streak on live because it's simply better.

That's the point in terms of offensive roles of BoLv Streak. One morph is better. Not easier but better in the field that the other morph is supposed to perform in.

InvictusApollo · October 2019

I jjust wanted to say that contrary to what the title of this post states: I - a person who also plays a magsorc, do not agree with OP and welcome changes to Ball of Lightning.

PhoenixGrey · October 2019

Ball of lightning has a stacking cost and it should have snare immunity and boundless should not.
Besides sorc already has a bar space issue.

I really dont see a problem if a sorc skill is over tuned when its bound to get gutted in the future no matter what.

PhoenixGrey · October 2019

iCaliban wrote: »

Sorc skill tree has more dead skills/morphs than any other in the game. In particular for pvp. 2 class roots? Why? A class based heal that is both low, and requires a 35% chance to proc. Shields are all but dead, 1/3 of the skill lines are pets, which people do not like using in pvp, and mostly just serve to irritate people. They also take 2 slots.

As it is now, sorcs require at least a 4 button or even 5 button combo to kill most players, leaving them with precious few slots for a CC , utility skills or healing. And even if we choose to slot those skills.... we cant, since most of the sorc skill tree is bad.

People believe sorc is still good due to the ability to steal kills and crush bad players, but this is not the case. Almost any competent player will destroy any sorc 1 on 1. If it wasnt for endless fury, everyone would realize what a trash tier situation sorc is in.

I would really like a nerf to mages wrath so that the class is exposed to what it really has become.

A potato mashing class which is irrelevant for any form of competitive PVP.

PhoenixGrey · October 2019

susmitds wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

You don't think it's insanely strong because you play a mag sorc. Yet you are often adamant that things stamina related or what other classes have is insanely strong. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because when ZOS throws their darts attempting to balance this game, they happen to always hit a bulls-eye when it comes to sorcerers, but miss the board entirely with everything else?

I don;t slot Dark Flare because the skill sucks, but I'm not going to be able to burn through a halfway decent sorc shields without using Reflective light, weaving in light attacks, or triggering my enchant/poison. Against a mobile sorc who actually uses this skill, keeping up this sort of pressure is essential. It's not like what people are saying here will remove the functionality of the sill or prevent from using it to defend against other magicka classes. They just don;t want it to be an outlier in terms of what it offers. I wouldn't care less if the other class's defensive toys were still potent, but they're not.

And I think if you come against a Malcolm or Irylia, you should try to fight them. What exactly do you expect to learn by bolt escaping away?

This is kind of off topic, but I feel compelled to address this. I love to fight skilled players. The problem with those guys is that they make videos that feature other players without their consent. I will never again fight against a streamer who I am not friends with, and that's a very short list. The only 1vXer I've had a good experience with is an EP DK named Gunzork. Nice guy, for sure, and I don't mind appearing in his videos. That doesn't mean I think Malcolm or Irylia are bad guys, but what they do feeds and breeds toxicity both in the game and right here on the forums. Due to an incident involving a YouTube streamer (not any of the ones mentioned here), I received so much abuse that I actually had to change my username in the game. Just appearing in one of these guys' videos is enough to make you a target for hateful people.

So, no, I don't see a problem with using BoL or even an abrupt campaign port to "peace out" when some big shot streamer shows up. Even though I would enjoy fighting these guys (and learning from the experience), I have no desire whatsoever to appear in one of their videos.

See - i am partly inclined to agree with this. It´s one of the reasons i never cared to much to make videos or stream myself.

However you do see the problem this creates somewhat?
If malcolm or irylia or some other considered top tier player with actual stream street credibility told you bol was op - would you believe them instead of joy or me?

BoL is not OP on the live server, and I do not believe the PTS changes are nearly as extreme as you seem to think. If a "famous" Sorc came out and said it was OP, I wouldn't dispute their judgement. Instead, I would offer the argument that an OP BoL is not that big a deal in the context of of all the relentless nerfs Sorcs (and others) have to deal with. In my opinion, there are many scenarios in which it is mathematically impossible for a Sorc to win against certain specs. I expect this sort of imbalance to continue once the PTS goes live. I don't see any problem with ZOS throwing Sorcs a bone in the form of an upgraded disengagement tool.... We're going to need it.

As for the prospect of unwinnable standoffs when two Mag Sorcs meet, I see your point. But hasn't it always kind of worked this way? For years, shield stacking with Harness made these fights last forever. Now at least one or both Sorcs will have the option to just blink away instead of wasting time fruitlessly. Honestly, however, I suspect that "trash" Sorcs (like myself apparently) will have to be lucky to escape the wrath of a top wizard, whether they are using BoL or not.

Tell me more about scenarios a sorc can never win.

Also why do you think it's fine for you to escape a top sorc with them not having a single option to kill you simply by spamming one skill?

The base morph of the spell is called "Bolt Escape". What is the point of an escape spell if you can't actually use it to ... you know... ESCAPE? Do you scold Nightblades for using Cloak to escape other Nightblades?

Also, do you really believe every fight must be resolved by a duel to the death? What's wrong with saying "Nah" and heading for the door every now and then? Or do you believe some players are entitled to farm other players for AP or Tel Var no matter what? I play almost exclusively Imperial City, and I can assure you that I am not the only player down there who is very reluctant to part with Tel Var stones under any circumstances.

As for scenarios that are stacked against Mag Sorcs, there are always some every patch, although the problematic matchups change from patch to patch. Lately, well-built and well-played Stamplars are almost impossible to beat with a balanced Mag Sorc build. They put about tons of damage while taking very little. They purge Curse, they purge DOTs and they self-heal through everything else. Because they are Stamina, they can't be CC-d for more than a split second. If their health is high enough, and it always is, they can't be bursted down with a Curse-Meteor-Streak-Frag combo. While they don't usually clobber me right away, after the first POTL goes off, I can see whether the fight is going to be winnable or not. There is no point in waiting to run out of resources and keel over dead. I'm certainly not gonna let that happen when there are stones on the line. Nah, there's no shame in Streaking away when the math is stacked against you.

Yes i believe that bad players should always die to a better player no matter what.
There is nothing that should save them unless they become better players.

Also thanks for not providing any mathematical explanation as to why a sorc has to lose against a stamplar.
It might just be that the stamplar is the better player thus deserves to take your tel var and send you back to a safe zone.

Please stop derailing this thread if you can't bring up anything constructive or ways on how a ranged magicka spec can deal with BoL absorb

BoL is super expensive and can't be spammed like spamables. The BoL will run the Sorc out of magicka far before, it can even threaten to kill you. Just staying is all. The 50% cost increase speaks for itself.

BoL has 4 sec fatigue time with 3 seconds immunity time. If you cast once every 4 seconds, you get no added costs and still have 75% uptime on ranged immunity.

And no, BoL is not costly. It is 25% cheaper per second than Cloak. My stamsorc with 15k magicka, can spam it 4 times back to back. If used after 4 seconds letting the fatigue run out, my stamsorc can get 11 casts out of it in a row. That's 44 seconds of ranged immunity and given that I can use a potion every 45 seconds, it can be kept up nearly infinitely with tri-pots.

Cloak prevents all attacks not just ranged.

With the recent change to BOL it's no longer going to cc a the gap close spammer which means you would need atleast 2-3 continous BOL to get out of range

universal_wrath · October 2019

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

Wings was just punishment skill for spammer. 100% range attack negation is just excuse for not using easy counter to it. Oh wait, this sound like cloak, are we talking about cloak?

universal_wrath · October 2019

Stibbons wrote: »

Streak/Ball of Lightning should be both balanced. Passive sorcerer finisher should be self only too.

What do you mean that sorcerer passive finisher should only be self?

universal_wrath · October 2019

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

You don't think it's insanely strong because you play a mag sorc. Yet you are often adamant that things stamina related or what other classes have is insanely strong. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because when ZOS throws their darts attempting to balance this game, they happen to always hit a bulls-eye when it comes to sorcerers, but miss the board entirely with everything else?

I don;t slot Dark Flare because the skill sucks, but I'm not going to be able to burn through a halfway decent sorc shields without using Reflective light, weaving in light attacks, or triggering my enchant/poison. Against a mobile sorc who actually uses this skill, keeping up this sort of pressure is essential. It's not like what people are saying here will remove the functionality of the sill or prevent from using it to defend against other magicka classes. They just don;t want it to be an outlier in terms of what it offers. I wouldn't care less if the other class's defensive toys were still potent, but they're not.

And I think if you come against a Malcolm or Irylia, you should try to fight them. What exactly do you expect to learn by bolt escaping away?

This is kind of off topic, but I feel compelled to address this. I love to fight skilled players. The problem with those guys is that they make videos that feature other players without their consent. I will never again fight against a streamer who I am not friends with, and that's a very short list. The only 1vXer I've had a good experience with is an EP DK named Gunzork. Nice guy, for sure, and I don't mind appearing in his videos. That doesn't mean I think Malcolm or Irylia are bad guys, but what they do feeds and breeds toxicity both in the game and right here on the forums. Due to an incident involving a YouTube streamer (not any of the ones mentioned here), I received so much abuse that I actually had to change my username in the game. Just appearing in one of these guys' videos is enough to make you a target for hateful people.

So, no, I don't see a problem with using BoL or even an abrupt campaign port to "peace out" when some big shot streamer shows up. Even though I would enjoy fighting these guys (and learning from the experience), I have no desire whatsoever to appear in one of their videos.

See - i am partly inclined to agree with this. It´s one of the reasons i never cared to much to make videos or stream myself.

However you do see the problem this creates somewhat?
If malcolm or irylia or some other considered top tier player with actual stream street credibility told you bol was op - would you believe them instead of joy or me?

BoL is not OP on the live server, and I do not believe the PTS changes are nearly as extreme as you seem to think. If a "famous" Sorc came out and said it was OP, I wouldn't dispute their judgement. Instead, I would offer the argument that an OP BoL is not that big a deal in the context of of all the relentless nerfs Sorcs (and others) have to deal with. In my opinion, there are many scenarios in which it is mathematically impossible for a Sorc to win against certain specs. I expect this sort of imbalance to continue once the PTS goes live. I don't see any problem with ZOS throwing Sorcs a bone in the form of an upgraded disengagement tool.... We're going to need it.

As for the prospect of unwinnable standoffs when two Mag Sorcs meet, I see your point. But hasn't it always kind of worked this way? For years, shield stacking with Harness made these fights last forever. Now at least one or both Sorcs will have the option to just blink away instead of wasting time fruitlessly. Honestly, however, I suspect that "trash" Sorcs (like myself apparently) will have to be lucky to escape the wrath of a top wizard, whether they are using BoL or not.

Tell me more about scenarios a sorc can never win.

Also why do you think it's fine for you to escape a top sorc with them not having a single option to kill you simply by spamming one skill?

The base morph of the spell is called "Bolt Escape". What is the point of an escape spell if you can't actually use it to ... you know... ESCAPE? Do you scold Nightblades for using Cloak to escape other Nightblades?

Also, do you really believe every fight must be resolved by a duel to the death? What's wrong with saying "Nah" and heading for the door every now and then? Or do you believe some players are entitled to farm other players for AP or Tel Var no matter what? I play almost exclusively Imperial City, and I can assure you that I am not the only player down there who is very reluctant to part with Tel Var stones under any circumstances.

As for scenarios that are stacked against Mag Sorcs, there are always some every patch, although the problematic matchups change from patch to patch. Lately, well-built and well-played Stamplars are almost impossible to beat with a balanced Mag Sorc build. They put about tons of damage while taking very little. They purge Curse, they purge DOTs and they self-heal through everything else. Because they are Stamina, they can't be CC-d for more than a split second. If their health is high enough, and it always is, they can't be bursted down with a Curse-Meteor-Streak-Frag combo. While they don't usually clobber me right away, after the first POTL goes off, I can see whether the fight is going to be winnable or not. There is no point in waiting to run out of resources and keel over dead. I'm certainly not gonna let that happen when there are stones on the line. Nah, there's no shame in Streaking away when the math is stacked against you.

Yes i believe that bad players should always die to a better player no matter what.
There is nothing that should save them unless they become better players.

Also thanks for not providing any mathematical explanation as to why a sorc has to lose against a stamplar.
It might just be that the stamplar is the better player thus deserves to take your tel var and send you back to a safe zone.

Please stop derailing this thread if you can't bring up anything constructive or ways on how a ranged magicka spec can deal with BoL absorb

BoL is super expensive and can't be spammed like spamables. The BoL will run the Sorc out of magicka far before, it can even threaten to kill you. Just staying is all. The 50% cost increase speaks for itself.

BoL has 4 sec fatigue time with 3 seconds immunity time. If you cast once every 4 seconds, you get no added costs and still have 75% uptime on ranged immunity.

And no, BoL is not costly. It is 25% cheaper per second than Cloak. My stamsorc with 15k magicka, can spam it 4 times back to back. If used after 4 seconds letting the fatigue run out, my stamsorc can get 11 casts out of it in a row. That's 44 seconds of ranged immunity and given that I can use a potion every 45 seconds, it can be kept up nearly infinitely with tri-pots.

Cloak prevents all attacks not just ranged.

With the recent change to BOL it's no longer going to cc a the gap close spammer which means you would need atleast 2-3 continous BOL to get out of range

Don't forget dark deal and surge, more time wasted on streak/BoL is less times used to cast dark deal(stam/mag sustain) and crit surge for heals.

Pelican · October 2019

Honestly I just want to have a reliable CC. Streak requires you to turn back after streaking to burst which causes your follow up light attack to miss almost all the time, rune cage takes too long, flame reach got dumpstered, vamp drain is awkward to burst with.

TheYKcid · October 2019

Magsorc main here. The current PTS version of BoL is clearly and severely overloaded.

The mag projectile absorb has always been an extremely unhealthy mechanic with its potential to completely shutdown certain builds, not unlike the old wings.

Conversely, snare immunity is a useful and healthy addition to the skill, which the class toolkit could certainly use... but the total power of the skill is now way over budget.

Leave the snare immunity, but reduce the projectile absorb to 0.5s. It's now still a good tool to nullify ranged burst, but you have to be diligent with timing.

I wouldn't even argue with the absorb being removed entirely.

FearlessOne_2014 · October 2019

How about taking away complete range immunity, and replace it with %50 damage reduction to all projectiles? Sounds fair?

luen79rwb17_ESO · October 2019

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

How about taking away complete range immunity, and replace it with %50 damage reduction to all projectiles? Sounds fair?

No. This thread is about sorcs. DK whinning is in another thread.

FearlessOne_2014 · October 2019

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

How about taking away complete range immunity, and replace it with %50 damage reduction to all projectiles? Sounds fair?

No. This thread is about sorcs. DK whinning is in another thread.

I wasn't whinning, I was being serious. Or unless you are just another typical MagSorc hater. That wants to just see the class deleted from the game.

Canned_Apples · October 2019

Make it block-able again.
Problem solved.

ku5h · October 2019

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Make it block-able again.
Problem solved.

That solves nothing.
Lower projectile absorb to 1.5 sec on BoL.
Add 100% proc chance of Concussion status effect to Streak.
Sorc need help killing tankier ppl, not more defense.

leepalmer95 · October 2019

Or just leave both ball of light and streak how they are, both morphs are completely fine already and zos shouldn't be wasting time and effort on skills that are fine and balanced.

Who even asked for a ball of lightning buff? or a streak nerf lmao.

ToRelax · October 2019

TheYKcid wrote: »

Magsorc main here. The current PTS version of BoL is clearly and severely overloaded.

The mag projectile absorb has always been an extremely unhealthy mechanic with its potential to completely shutdown certain builds, not unlike the old wings.

Conversely, snare immunity is a useful and healthy addition to the skill, which the class toolkit could certainly use... but the total power of the skill is now way over budget.

Leave the snare immunity, but reduce the projectile absorb to 0.5s. It's now still a good tool to nullify ranged burst, but you have to be diligent with timing.

I wouldn't even argue with the absorb being removed entirely.

0.5 seconds makes no sense because it doesn't work retroactively, unlike wings. That's not even enough to justify casting the skill just for the orb.

SipofMaim · October 2019

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Or just leave both ball of light and streak how they are, both morphs are completely fine already and zos shouldn't be wasting time and effort on skills that are fine and balanced.

Who even asked for a ball of lightning buff? or a streak nerf lmao.

Ikr. Magsorc kit is a mess and they came up with: While we're nerfing all the DOTs, let's make changes to Streak. What the?

Derra · October 2019

All DKs should support this topic with pitchforks in hand.

100% projectile immunity for 3s is rediculous.

BohnT2 · October 2019

Alright going out of cyro every day with 0 deaths here i come.
The bug fix to make BoL absorb any projectile is huge this means there's only few things which can hit a sorc a range eg. Jesus Beam and lolassault as they are beam attacks.
All other things that fly around will just be absorbed while there is nothing holding the sorc back from fighting.
This means a sorc can just keep up 100% projectile damage immunity when ever it's needed.

This creates situations for specs like magnecro, magwarden, magnb and sorcs who run streak that the only thing they can do is wait for the sorc to kill them or try to get away which is troublesome for most of them as magsorc is just faster.

The same one-sided fights generated by old wings are now being introduced back into the game

Galarthor · October 2019

Derra wrote: »

All DKs should support this topic with pitchforks in hand.

100% projectile immunity for 3s is rediculous.

Almost as ridiculous as reflecting them back with additional damage for 6 seconds

On a more serious note:
The 3 seconds are far too much. The orb should have a similar effectiveness as a dodge roll. Its purpose is to increase your odds of escaping by mitigating some damage, not to make you immune to ranged DPS 75% of the time.

Make the Orb last 1 to 1.5 seconds but also absorb gap closers. The enemy will still be able to chase the sorc as the orb is right next to where the sorc lands, but it will mitigate the damage and will be less discriminatory against ranged builds as it provides some degree of protection against both ranged and melee builds while escaping.

Should also be comparatively easy from a coding point of view. Just replace the current section of the orb with that of the dodge roll minus the stam cost and you are done.

Chilly-McFreeze · October 2019

Galarthor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

All DKs should support this topic with pitchforks in hand.

100% projectile immunity for 3s is rediculous.

Almost as ridiculous as reflecting them back with additional damage for 6 seconds

On a more serious note:
The 3 seconds are far too much. The orb should have a similar effectiveness as a dodge roll. Its purpose is to increase your odds of escaping by mitigating some damage, not to make you immune to ranged DPS 75% of the time.

Make the Orb last 1 to 1.5 seconds but also absorb gap closers. The enemy will still be able to chase the sorc as the orb is right next to where the sorc lands, but it will mitigate the damage and will be less discriminatory against ranged builds as it provides some degree of protection against both ranged and melee builds while escaping.

Should also be comparatively easy from a coding point of view. Just replace the current section of the orb with that of the dodge roll minus the stam cost and you are done.

Just two remarks:

The absorb only happens after you finish BoL, unlike dodge.

If you can't hit them with ranged attacks and can't follow them via Gap Closers, what do you suppose to do to catch them? Run after them?