Magicka Sorcs Against Ball of Lightning-Updated

Arciris

susmitds wrote: »

@Emma_Overload @Derra

Yes, I know that BoL is Spell Projectile absorption and not all projectile. I should have used the right terminology but mentioned 100% projectile in the sense that from a practical point of view, magicka classes, primarily magblade is affected mostly by the change. There are very limited "real" ranged effective stamina PvP builds cause it is mostly snipe-gankers that go ranged on stamina and as such stamina won't really effected.

Two things make BoL OP:

1) Magblades - This skill will make any Magsorc vs Magblade fight super lopsided. Any semi-decent magsorc will essentially hard counter magblades, denying them any real window to counter-burst.

2) Mobility - Bolt Escape is already one of the strongest mobility game and magsorc is by far the most mobile open world class. Makes no sense to attach further mobility bonuses on it.

1) The absorb spell projectiles part has been buffed by what? 1 sec? how is that going to be so much of a difference for magblades?
Don't forget STACKING increased cost, BoL is not exactly a spammable, it has a huge kiss Curse effect attached to it
Magblades have CLOAK that can virtually deny ALL damage, you must be joking at this point lol

2) Bolt Escape is already one of the strongest magika mobility game and magsorc i magblade (shade+cloak) s by far the most mobile magika open world class. Makes no sense to attach further mobility bonuses on it - Fixed it for you

edit for accuracy

josh.lackey_ESO

BoL is still significantly less powerful than Cloak, which makes all projectile miss for 3 seconds. It suppresses DoTs. It allows repositioning. It makes you totally unable to be targeted by any attacks. And it makes your next attack a guaranteed crit.

I think the stun should be at the origin location instead of target location, though I can work with either. Other than that, the BoL changes are great.

I also notice the tooltip now says it absorbs "incoming projectiles" and not just "spell projectiles" which I hope means they fixed it to be useful. Absorbing only magic projectiles was almost worthless in my experience. I haven't tested it yet to be sure.

I think it's a great change. Sorcs have been getting pounded the last few patches with survivability and the shield nerfs. It works like a "magicka dodge" now, same as Cloak. Except Cloak needs to be given increasing cost fatigue so it can't be spammed, the was BoL and Dodge are now. (Dodge also gives a free stun and +10% damage because off Off Balance with Tactician CP -- and you can time it whenever you want with a medium attack, not just when you do the roll.) If any of those 3 avoidance mechanics are too powerful and needs a nerf, it's definitely Cloak.

PTS: "incoming projectiles"


Live: "spell projectiles"

ThePedge

Arciris wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

@Emma_Overload @Derra

Yes, I know that BoL is Spell Projectile absorption and not all projectile. I should have used the right terminology but mentioned 100% projectile in the sense that from a practical point of view, magicka classes, primarily magblade is affected mostly by the change. There are very limited "real" ranged effective stamina PvP builds cause it is mostly snipe-gankers that go ranged on stamina and as such stamina won't really effected.

Two things make BoL OP:

1) Magblades - This skill will make any Magsorc vs Magblade fight super lopsided. Any semi-decent magsorc will essentially hard counter magblades, denying them any real window to counter-burst.

2) Mobility - Bolt Escape is already one of the strongest mobility game and magsorc is by far the most mobile open world class. Makes no sense to attach further mobility bonuses on it.

1) The absorb spell projectiles part has been buffed by what? 1 sec? how is that going to be so much of a difference for magblades?
Don't forget STACKING increased cost, BoL is not exactly a spammable, it has a huge kiss Curse effect attached to it
Magblades have CLOAK that can virtually deny ALL damage, you must be joking at this point lol

2) Bolt Escape is already one of the strongest magika mobility game and magsorc i magblade (shade+cloak) s by far the most mobile magika open world class. Makes no sense to attach further mobility bonuses on it - Fixed it for you

edit for accuracy

2) incorrect. Magblade still moves at run speed even in stealth. They don't travel 20m a second like Bolt Escape

Arciris

ThePedge wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

@Emma_Overload @Derra

Yes, I know that BoL is Spell Projectile absorption and not all projectile. I should have used the right terminology but mentioned 100% projectile in the sense that from a practical point of view, magicka classes, primarily magblade is affected mostly by the change. There are very limited "real" ranged effective stamina PvP builds cause it is mostly snipe-gankers that go ranged on stamina and as such stamina won't really effected.

Two things make BoL OP:

1) Magblades - This skill will make any Magsorc vs Magblade fight super lopsided. Any semi-decent magsorc will essentially hard counter magblades, denying them any real window to counter-burst.

2) Mobility - Bolt Escape is already one of the strongest mobility game and magsorc is by far the most mobile open world class. Makes no sense to attach further mobility bonuses on it.

1) The absorb spell projectiles part has been buffed by what? 1 sec? how is that going to be so much of a difference for magblades?
Don't forget STACKING increased cost, BoL is not exactly a spammable, it has a huge kiss Curse effect attached to it
Magblades have CLOAK that can virtually deny ALL damage, you must be joking at this point lol

2) Bolt Escape is already one of the strongest magika mobility game and magsorc i magblade (shade+cloak) s by far the most mobile magika open world class. Makes no sense to attach further mobility bonuses on it - Fixed it for you

edit for accuracy

2) incorrect. Magblade still moves at run speed even in stealth. They don't travel 20m a second like Bolt Escape

And they teleport back to their shade at run speed too?

edit: also, read the tooltip, it's 15m, not 20.

Pijng

Is this a nerf cloak thread already?

Derra

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Daedric_NB_187

I'm all for it. Apply that Zo$ "balancing" you are so known for just like you have been for the past couple of chapters.

Thraben

IAVITNI wrote: »

Please do not let the current version of Ball go Lightning go unscathed through the PTS.

TL;DR:
Leave Streak and Ball of Lightning as they are on Live. Give Lightning Form and morphs snare immunity. Standardize power levels properly.

Thank you for your courage. You are right, it is too much. IF something needs a buff, then it is streak, not ball of lightning. Even StamSorcs would slot Ball of Lightning in its current PTS iteration, heck, every class except a Magblade would if they could.

Emma_Overload

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Emma_Overload

By the way, I don't have any problem with ZOS taking away the snare removal from BoL and giving it to Boundless Storm. That would be a logical solution.

The problem is that ZOS has proven time and time again that if you look a gift horse in the mouth they will simply take it out behind the barn and shoot it. They are not in the habit of giving you a second gift horse!

Joy_Division

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Do you mean where the stun mechanic happens?

If I wanted to use this defensively, the bad guy is usually where I am rather than where I am going.

Derra

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

Cadbury

Arciris wrote: »

At this point I believe forumers are becoming Nerf Addicts.

ZOS: buffs one class skills

Players: No, no, no! No buffs please! Nerf it now.

Or people disguise themselves as Class X mains, just to give more weight to their nerf claims.

Or people are so tired of change at this point that the only feedback they provide now is Troll feedback

Derra

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Do you mean where the stun mechanic happens?

If I wanted to use this defensively, the bad guy is usually where I am rather than where I am going.

Yes that´s what i mean.

The new root+snare immunity + the old stun mechanic would be grossly overpowered from a defensive pov. That´s why i think the new stun somewhat balances that out.

Arciris

Pijng wrote: »

Is this a nerf cloak thread already?

Oh no please, not a Cloak nerf thread. It's the only ability in the game that still has some cool to it.

But, let's face it, Magblades complaining about mitigation/mobility tools of other classes just seems highly hypocrite.
Unfortunately, they managed to get DK's wings clipped already

GrimTheReaper45

Ive been a sorc since I started playing. Honestly I dont like streak or any morph of the skill.

ToRelax

I always said absorb over 2.5 sec or snare immunity would be op, now they did exactly that.
I'm rather indifferent about the stun tbh, whether you stun at start or end position, it's not as reliable in every situation as streak used to be.
Yet I'm also very hesitant to make a fuss about it, because I really don't want to get both morphs nerfed and be left with nothing.

Arciris

@Cadbury

Cadbury wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

At this point I believe forumers are becoming Nerf Addicts.

ZOS: buffs one class skills

Players: No, no, no! No buffs please! Nerf it now.

Or people disguise themselves as Class X mains, just to give more weight to their nerf claims.

Or people are so tired of change at this point that the only feedback they provide now is Troll feedback

No worries, I've never ever asked for any Class Skill nerf and never will, as I actually like to play them all (maybe minus NB, not really my style, but still won't be asking for any nerfs to them)

If you have nothing better to do, feel free to review all my previous posts

Chilly-McFreeze

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Do you mean where the stun mechanic happens?

If I wanted to use this defensively, the bad guy is usually where I am rather than where I am going.

Yes that´s what i mean.

The new root+snare immunity + the old stun mechanic would be grossly overpowered from a defensive pov. That´s why i think the new stun somewhat balances that out.

"balances is that out" is one way to put it. It loses the stun for defense, right. But why deform two cleary designed defensive/ offensive morphs to balance out a buff that wasn't necessary in the first place? The longer I think about it the more cleary it gets that the whole fingering with these morphs is uncalled for and will bring more harm than good in the long run, both for sorcs and for other classes.

Bashev

Better ZoS adjust the skill before it goes live, otherwise the incoming nerf next patch could destroy the skill.

InvictusApollo

IAVITNI wrote: »

Please do not let the current version of Ball go Lightning go unscathed through the PTS. Ball of Lightning and Streak are two of the most used and iconic skills within the sorcerer kit. If the idea is to increase sorc identity via mobility you do not do that by making arguably the best mobile ability more mobile via snare immunity and ranged CC/snare immunity from all magicka builds.

By that logic, templars should should have their BoL (Breath of Life) buffed to give them further identity as the healing class. The changes to Ball of Lightning and Streak are unnecessary, and in regards to the former, a huge overloading of an already strong ability.

Wings were nerfed for being over bearing to ranged builds. Ball of Lightning, at 3 seconds has the same effect except it is even stronger. For all those DK mains who were upset about the wings nerf, please join a sorc main in nerfing Ball of Lightning. If your class cannot have overloaded abilities neither should sorcerers.

Adding to that, the change to Ball of Lightning turns it from a defensive ability to a hybrid offensive/defensive ability (that in actuality out-performs Streak on the PTS). The stun change, while welcomed as it provides a much needed fix to a void in the class kit, is actually killing diversity. Instead of having 1 offensive and 1 defensive morph, you know have 1 over-performing morph and the other one.

Sorcerer already has a plethora of underperforming skills (I'd strongly argue 1/3 of the kit) that could benefit from a balance pass. Spending time buffing one of the strongest tools in the live sorc kit is a detrimental detour that will ultimately result in nerfing the class in the wrong area (as sorcerer has always been nerfed). Streak sees more use than Ball of Lightning because there is no viable class stun. You do not address this issue by turning a defensive utility skill into an offensive stun but rather by turning the CLASS STUN into a usable ability *cough Rune Cage cough*.

Furthermore, one of the reasons that Streak was originally changed to be negated by block was due to abuse in group play where sorcs would spam a 0 counter AoE CC. Shards stun was removed for similar reasons. Why reimplement this in Streak?

Now of course we do not need a repeat of the Rune Cage fiasco, but neither do we need Ball of Lightning to parallel those dark times.

Please consider not over-buffing an already powerful ability.

Ideally leave Streak and Ball of Lightning untouched from current Live versions. But definitely do not allow Ball of Lightning to persist beyond 1.5 seconds.

If you want to give Sorcerers an offensive stun, buff Defensive Rune/Rune Cage.

If you want to increase mobility, buff the underwhelming Boundless Storm. Give this ability snare immunity.

If you want to create scenarios of critical decision-making instead of giving players a singular ability that out-performs everything else, give Hurricane snare immunity and force players to choose between survivability and offence. Do not give players the best of both worlds in a single skill (see Draining Shot changes in 5.0.0)

TL;DR:
Leave Streak and Ball of Lightning as they are on Live. Give Lightning Form and morphs snare immunity. Standardize power levels properly.

No. Our wards are pathetic after nerfs. We need to have Balls of Lightning to survive now.

kalunte

winter coming (back) for bows... this time it'll look like a sorc instead of a dk >.<

the dmg immunity should last the same duration as a dodge. not more, not less.

luen79rwb17_ESO

Lmfao this forum is amazing... Sorcs asking for sorcs nerfs

BoL change, while a bit weird is the only decent stuff for magsorcs out of this PTS so far. And ofc only applies to PVP which is actually sad.

But I don't complain much cause the BoL change will actually be helpful on the snare and stun fest that PVP is as of late.

New BoL should help prevent burst damage that usually drops after landing a stun, whereas shields are nowadays mostly a waste of a slot and worked as a reactive measure ever since they nerfed their duration.

Cadbury

@Arciris

Your post just reminded me of that quote. More of a failed attempt at humor than a jab at you. But sorry you were offended.

IAVITNI

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Updated the op. I agree those changes are decent. Primary concern is ofc absorb duration.

That said the snare removal overloads an already mobile skill and as you said above, the stun was changed to account for that.

However, the result is that the actual offensive morph (Streak) is now outshined (and consequently nerfed) by the defensive one and the class stun is out performed by a utility skill.

So when Rune Cage gets a balance pass it can only be so strong because Ball of Lightning is consuming so much of the power budget.

It also removes opportunity to buff abilities like Boundless, which would be far more viable if it also had snare immunity.

Even if the immunity is given to Hurricane as well it is a kiss/curse effect maintaining that abilities power budget.

So assuming BoL goes through with a 1.5-2 second absorb duration, while the class will be better off than it was yesterday, growth tomorrow becomes stunted Ultimately, reverting all changes, barring the fatigue cost change, will result in a healthier class down the line.

Stibbons

Streak/Ball of Lightning should be both balanced. Passive sorcerer finisher should be self only too.

ToRelax

kalunte wrote: »

winter coming (back) for bows... this time it'll look like a sorc instead of a dk >.<

the dmg immunity should last the same duration as a dodge. not more, not less.

Would be useless, because BoL doesn't doesn't work retroactively on projectiles already fired, unlike dodge. Thanks for your input.

Chilly-McFreeze

Stibbons wrote: »

Streak/Ball of Lightning should be both balanced. Passive sorcerer finisher should be self only too.

You wrote this in a couple of threads. I don't know what that means. Can you please elaborate.

NordSwordnBoard

The rune cage precedent makes me worried about the eventual outcome for streak. Defensive rune becoming dodge able never needed to happen imo.

Derra

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Do you mean where the stun mechanic happens?

If I wanted to use this defensively, the bad guy is usually where I am rather than where I am going.

Yes that´s what i mean.

The new root+snare immunity + the old stun mechanic would be grossly overpowered from a defensive pov. That´s why i think the new stun somewhat balances that out.

"balances is that out" is one way to put it. It loses the stun for defense, right. But why deform two cleary designed defensive/ offensive morphs to balance out a buff that wasn't necessary in the first place? The longer I think about it the more cleary it gets that the whole fingering with these morphs is uncalled for and will bring more harm than good in the long run, both for sorcs and for other classes.

I wrote countless times on discord and in sorc feedback - i don´t want both abilities touched at all ideally.

The issue is: They changed (nerfed) streak. That´s done and i´m 100% sure it won´t change.
So my approach is to atleast get something universially useable out of bol that isn´t OP defensively - if that makes sense.

Because reverting bol and sticking to nerfed streak would be garbage. Just a plain nerf.