Magicka Sorcs Against Ball of Lightning-Updated

Derra

Arciris wrote: »

@ToRelax

Outside of Invisibility counters range, Cloak provides immunity against ALL damage forms but AOE, since you can't target through Cloak.
Let me rephrase it: while Invisible you are Immune to all damage (except AOE, but you can walk out of them or not step into them in the first place and at 20m+ you are outside of range of any PBAOE obviously)

Mark Target is the only range Cloak counter available but it is only available to.... Nightblades lol

It makes Cloak a better Escape AND Mitigation tool than any other escape and mitigation tools combined (as long as you don't dive in into melee range lol)

Edit: + it's not really escaping if you just run away and die. There needs to be some chance of success if you attempt to escape, some mitigation helps with that

I´d be less critical if the ball worked like cloak - meaning most abilities and all attacks you cast remove the protection it provides while also having actual counter abilities (not that cloak counters for ranged are particularly great). It does neither.

Also cloak + shade working as a tool for "trash" players to counter a better player killing them requires that they remove themselves from combat. The issue with bol is that it doesn´t remove them from combat but they become untouchable.

Comparing bol to cloak is a pretty basic strawman argument in that regard.

If you´ve looked at my post you´d also realize that i´m actually in favor of the root/snare immunity and don´t want to remove the mitigation entirely - it just got adjusted in the wrong direction. 2s would be fine and create actual window of opportunity to attack.

Emma_Overload

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

You don't think it's insanely strong because you play a mag sorc. Yet you are often adamant that things stamina related or what other classes have is insanely strong. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because when ZOS throws their darts attempting to balance this game, they happen to always hit a bulls-eye when it comes to sorcerers, but miss the board entirely with everything else?

I don;t slot Dark Flare because the skill sucks, but I'm not going to be able to burn through a halfway decent sorc shields without using Reflective light, weaving in light attacks, or triggering my enchant/poison. Against a mobile sorc who actually uses this skill, keeping up this sort of pressure is essential. It's not like what people are saying here will remove the functionality of the sill or prevent from using it to defend against other magicka classes. They just don;t want it to be an outlier in terms of what it offers. I wouldn't care less if the other class's defensive toys were still potent, but they're not.

And I think if you come against a Malcolm or Irylia, you should try to fight them. What exactly do you expect to learn by bolt escaping away?

This is kind of off topic, but I feel compelled to address this. I love to fight skilled players. The problem with those guys is that they make videos that feature other players without their consent. I will never again fight against a streamer who I am not friends with, and that's a very short list. The only 1vXer I've had a good experience with is an EP DK named Gunzork. Nice guy, for sure, and I don't mind appearing in his videos. That doesn't mean I think Malcolm or Irylia are bad guys, but what they do feeds and breeds toxicity both in the game and right here on the forums. Due to an incident involving a YouTube streamer (not any of the ones mentioned here), I received so much abuse that I actually had to change my username in the game. Just appearing in one of these guys' videos is enough to make you a target for hateful people.

So, no, I don't see a problem with using BoL or even an abrupt campaign port to "peace out" when some big shot streamer shows up. Even though I would enjoy fighting these guys (and learning from the experience), I have no desire whatsoever to appear in one of their videos.

See - i am partly inclined to agree with this. It´s one of the reasons i never cared to much to make videos or stream myself.

However you do see the problem this creates somewhat?
If malcolm or irylia or some other considered top tier player with actual stream street credibility told you bol was op - would you believe them instead of joy or me?

BoL is not OP on the live server, and I do not believe the PTS changes are nearly as extreme as you seem to think. If a "famous" Sorc came out and said it was OP, I wouldn't dispute their judgement. Instead, I would offer the argument that an OP BoL is not that big a deal in the context of of all the relentless nerfs Sorcs (and others) have to deal with. In my opinion, there are many scenarios in which it is mathematically impossible for a Sorc to win against certain specs. I expect this sort of imbalance to continue once the PTS goes live. I don't see any problem with ZOS throwing Sorcs a bone in the form of an upgraded disengagement tool.... We're going to need it.

As for the prospect of unwinnable standoffs when two Mag Sorcs meet, I see your point. But hasn't it always kind of worked this way? For years, shield stacking with Harness made these fights last forever. Now at least one or both Sorcs will have the option to just blink away instead of wasting time fruitlessly. Honestly, however, I suspect that "trash" Sorcs (like myself apparently) will have to be lucky to escape the wrath of a top wizard, whether they are using BoL or not.

Kadoin

Arciris wrote: »

At this point I believe forumers are becoming Nerf Addicts.

ZOS: buffs one class skills

Players: No, no, no! No buffs please! Nerf it now.

Or people disguise themselves as Class X mains, just to give more weight to their nerf claims.

Or people are so tired of change at this point that the only feedback they provide now is Troll feedback

The reason why they are calling for the nerf is because if you do not get nerfed now, ZOS will take the sledgehammer to the class and the skills that are OP later.

If these changes make it to live, I'm sure the next zerg will be heavy armor sorcs with heal pet and heal proc sets all streaking down a hill and armed with negate. Though that would be a sight to see, it would not be fun for anyone on the receiving end Or anyone that mains the class 3 months later...

susmitds

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

See - i am partly inclined to agree with this. It´s one of the reasons i never cared to much to make videos or stream myself.

However you do see the problem this creates somewhat?
If malcolm or irylia or some other considered top tier player with actual stream street credibility told you bol was op - would you believe them instead of joy or me?

BoL is not OP on the live server, and I do not believe the PTS changes are nearly as extreme as you seem to think. If a "famous" Sorc came out and said it was OP, I wouldn't dispute their judgement. Instead, I would offer the argument that an OP BoL is not that big a deal in the context of of all the relentless nerfs Sorcs (and others) have to deal with. In my opinion, there are many scenarios in which it is mathematically impossible for a Sorc to win against certain specs. I expect this sort of imbalance to continue once the PTS goes live. I don't see any problem with ZOS throwing Sorcs a bone in the form of an upgraded disengagement tool.... We're going to need it.

As for the prospect of unwinnable standoffs when two Mag Sorcs meet, I see your point. But hasn't it always kind of worked this way? For years, shield stacking with Harness made these fights last forever. Now at least one or both Sorcs will have the option to just blink away instead of wasting time fruitlessly. Honestly, however, I suspect that "trash" Sorcs (like myself apparently) will have to be lucky to escape the wrath of a top wizard, whether they are using BoL or not.

BoL is a rather lopsided skill defensively to fight against as a mag ranged user even on live server. Reason that it is not used as Streak with its stun is more appealing.

On PTS, you can cast BoL once every 4 secs without any cost increase and you get 3 secs of spell immunity. It is impossible to push enough damage in 1 GCD to kill a sorc in combat as long as they cast BoL every 4 secs. This means that even a very bad sorc will be able to survive unscathed against top tier magblades, magcros and even magsorcs. This is called a "hard counter" by design and is extremely overpowered.

Bashev

ZoS, use the DK treatment. Give the sorc 50% damage reduction vs projectiles for 3 seconds.

Kadoin

susmitds wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

See - i am partly inclined to agree with this. It´s one of the reasons i never cared to much to make videos or stream myself.

However you do see the problem this creates somewhat?
If malcolm or irylia or some other considered top tier player with actual stream street credibility told you bol was op - would you believe them instead of joy or me?

BoL is not OP on the live server, and I do not believe the PTS changes are nearly as extreme as you seem to think. If a "famous" Sorc came out and said it was OP, I wouldn't dispute their judgement. Instead, I would offer the argument that an OP BoL is not that big a deal in the context of of all the relentless nerfs Sorcs (and others) have to deal with. In my opinion, there are many scenarios in which it is mathematically impossible for a Sorc to win against certain specs. I expect this sort of imbalance to continue once the PTS goes live. I don't see any problem with ZOS throwing Sorcs a bone in the form of an upgraded disengagement tool.... We're going to need it.

As for the prospect of unwinnable standoffs when two Mag Sorcs meet, I see your point. But hasn't it always kind of worked this way? For years, shield stacking with Harness made these fights last forever. Now at least one or both Sorcs will have the option to just blink away instead of wasting time fruitlessly. Honestly, however, I suspect that "trash" Sorcs (like myself apparently) will have to be lucky to escape the wrath of a top wizard, whether they are using BoL or not.

BoL is a rather lopsided skill defensively to fight against as a mag ranged user even on live server. Reason that it is not used as Streak with its stun is more appealing.

On PTS, you can cast BoL once every 4 secs without any cost increase and you get 3 secs of spell immunity. It is impossible to push as damage in 1 GCD to kill a sorc in combat as long as they cast BoL every 4 secs. This means that even a very bad sorc will be able to survive unscathed against top tier magblades, magcros and even magsorcs. This is called a "hard counter" by design and is extremely overpowered.

It's true, I use Ball of Lightning on live on my stam sorc and can't understand how anyone thinks it needs a buff...

That stam sorc has curse eater for added cheese, and it is enough to cast ball of lightning repeatedly and simply roll otherwise, meaning ranged builds have little to no effect on the character, and if even if they did, the DoT portions of their skill get cleansed.

ZOS forgot about stam sorc with the changes, but hey...Why not let a few things slip through the cracks, just this once? Please?

BohnT2

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

You don't think it's insanely strong because you play a mag sorc. Yet you are often adamant that things stamina related or what other classes have is insanely strong. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because when ZOS throws their darts attempting to balance this game, they happen to always hit a bulls-eye when it comes to sorcerers, but miss the board entirely with everything else?

I don;t slot Dark Flare because the skill sucks, but I'm not going to be able to burn through a halfway decent sorc shields without using Reflective light, weaving in light attacks, or triggering my enchant/poison. Against a mobile sorc who actually uses this skill, keeping up this sort of pressure is essential. It's not like what people are saying here will remove the functionality of the sill or prevent from using it to defend against other magicka classes. They just don;t want it to be an outlier in terms of what it offers. I wouldn't care less if the other class's defensive toys were still potent, but they're not.

And I think if you come against a Malcolm or Irylia, you should try to fight them. What exactly do you expect to learn by bolt escaping away?

This is kind of off topic, but I feel compelled to address this. I love to fight skilled players. The problem with those guys is that they make videos that feature other players without their consent. I will never again fight against a streamer who I am not friends with, and that's a very short list. The only 1vXer I've had a good experience with is an EP DK named Gunzork. Nice guy, for sure, and I don't mind appearing in his videos. That doesn't mean I think Malcolm or Irylia are bad guys, but what they do feeds and breeds toxicity both in the game and right here on the forums. Due to an incident involving a YouTube streamer (not any of the ones mentioned here), I received so much abuse that I actually had to change my username in the game. Just appearing in one of these guys' videos is enough to make you a target for hateful people.

So, no, I don't see a problem with using BoL or even an abrupt campaign port to "peace out" when some big shot streamer shows up. Even though I would enjoy fighting these guys (and learning from the experience), I have no desire whatsoever to appear in one of their videos.

See - i am partly inclined to agree with this. It´s one of the reasons i never cared to much to make videos or stream myself.

However you do see the problem this creates somewhat?
If malcolm or irylia or some other considered top tier player with actual stream street credibility told you bol was op - would you believe them instead of joy or me?

BoL is not OP on the live server, and I do not believe the PTS changes are nearly as extreme as you seem to think. If a "famous" Sorc came out and said it was OP, I wouldn't dispute their judgement. Instead, I would offer the argument that an OP BoL is not that big a deal in the context of of all the relentless nerfs Sorcs (and others) have to deal with. In my opinion, there are many scenarios in which it is mathematically impossible for a Sorc to win against certain specs. I expect this sort of imbalance to continue once the PTS goes live. I don't see any problem with ZOS throwing Sorcs a bone in the form of an upgraded disengagement tool.... We're going to need it.

As for the prospect of unwinnable standoffs when two Mag Sorcs meet, I see your point. But hasn't it always kind of worked this way? For years, shield stacking with Harness made these fights last forever. Now at least one or both Sorcs will have the option to just blink away instead of wasting time fruitlessly. Honestly, however, I suspect that "trash" Sorcs (like myself apparently) will have to be lucky to escape the wrath of a top wizard, whether they are using BoL or not.

Tell me more about scenarios a sorc can never win.

Also why do you think it's fine for you to escape a top sorc with them not having a single option to kill you simply by spamming one skill?

Emma_Overload

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

You don't think it's insanely strong because you play a mag sorc. Yet you are often adamant that things stamina related or what other classes have is insanely strong. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because when ZOS throws their darts attempting to balance this game, they happen to always hit a bulls-eye when it comes to sorcerers, but miss the board entirely with everything else?

I don;t slot Dark Flare because the skill sucks, but I'm not going to be able to burn through a halfway decent sorc shields without using Reflective light, weaving in light attacks, or triggering my enchant/poison. Against a mobile sorc who actually uses this skill, keeping up this sort of pressure is essential. It's not like what people are saying here will remove the functionality of the sill or prevent from using it to defend against other magicka classes. They just don;t want it to be an outlier in terms of what it offers. I wouldn't care less if the other class's defensive toys were still potent, but they're not.

And I think if you come against a Malcolm or Irylia, you should try to fight them. What exactly do you expect to learn by bolt escaping away?

This is kind of off topic, but I feel compelled to address this. I love to fight skilled players. The problem with those guys is that they make videos that feature other players without their consent. I will never again fight against a streamer who I am not friends with, and that's a very short list. The only 1vXer I've had a good experience with is an EP DK named Gunzork. Nice guy, for sure, and I don't mind appearing in his videos. That doesn't mean I think Malcolm or Irylia are bad guys, but what they do feeds and breeds toxicity both in the game and right here on the forums. Due to an incident involving a YouTube streamer (not any of the ones mentioned here), I received so much abuse that I actually had to change my username in the game. Just appearing in one of these guys' videos is enough to make you a target for hateful people.

So, no, I don't see a problem with using BoL or even an abrupt campaign port to "peace out" when some big shot streamer shows up. Even though I would enjoy fighting these guys (and learning from the experience), I have no desire whatsoever to appear in one of their videos.

See - i am partly inclined to agree with this. It´s one of the reasons i never cared to much to make videos or stream myself.

However you do see the problem this creates somewhat?
If malcolm or irylia or some other considered top tier player with actual stream street credibility told you bol was op - would you believe them instead of joy or me?

BoL is not OP on the live server, and I do not believe the PTS changes are nearly as extreme as you seem to think. If a "famous" Sorc came out and said it was OP, I wouldn't dispute their judgement. Instead, I would offer the argument that an OP BoL is not that big a deal in the context of of all the relentless nerfs Sorcs (and others) have to deal with. In my opinion, there are many scenarios in which it is mathematically impossible for a Sorc to win against certain specs. I expect this sort of imbalance to continue once the PTS goes live. I don't see any problem with ZOS throwing Sorcs a bone in the form of an upgraded disengagement tool.... We're going to need it.

As for the prospect of unwinnable standoffs when two Mag Sorcs meet, I see your point. But hasn't it always kind of worked this way? For years, shield stacking with Harness made these fights last forever. Now at least one or both Sorcs will have the option to just blink away instead of wasting time fruitlessly. Honestly, however, I suspect that "trash" Sorcs (like myself apparently) will have to be lucky to escape the wrath of a top wizard, whether they are using BoL or not.

Tell me more about scenarios a sorc can never win.

Also why do you think it's fine for you to escape a top sorc with them not having a single option to kill you simply by spamming one skill?

The base morph of the spell is called "Bolt Escape". What is the point of an escape spell if you can't actually use it to ... you know... ESCAPE? Do you scold Nightblades for using Cloak to escape other Nightblades?

Also, do you really believe every fight must be resolved by a duel to the death? What's wrong with saying "Nah" and heading for the door every now and then? Or do you believe some players are entitled to farm other players for AP or Tel Var no matter what? I play almost exclusively Imperial City, and I can assure you that I am not the only player down there who is very reluctant to part with Tel Var stones under any circumstances.

As for scenarios that are stacked against Mag Sorcs, there are always some every patch, although the problematic matchups change from patch to patch. Lately, well-built and well-played Stamplars are almost impossible to beat with a balanced Mag Sorc build. They put about tons of damage while taking very little. They purge Curse, they purge DOTs and they self-heal through everything else. Because they are Stamina, they can't be CC-d for more than a split second. If their health is high enough, and it always is, they can't be bursted down with a Curse-Meteor-Streak-Frag combo. While they don't usually clobber me right away, after the first POTL goes off, I can see whether the fight is going to be winnable or not. There is no point in waiting to run out of resources and keel over dead. I'm certainly not gonna let that happen when there are stones on the line. Nah, there's no shame in Streaking away when the math is stacked against you.

BohnT2

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

You don't think it's insanely strong because you play a mag sorc. Yet you are often adamant that things stamina related or what other classes have is insanely strong. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because when ZOS throws their darts attempting to balance this game, they happen to always hit a bulls-eye when it comes to sorcerers, but miss the board entirely with everything else?

I don;t slot Dark Flare because the skill sucks, but I'm not going to be able to burn through a halfway decent sorc shields without using Reflective light, weaving in light attacks, or triggering my enchant/poison. Against a mobile sorc who actually uses this skill, keeping up this sort of pressure is essential. It's not like what people are saying here will remove the functionality of the sill or prevent from using it to defend against other magicka classes. They just don;t want it to be an outlier in terms of what it offers. I wouldn't care less if the other class's defensive toys were still potent, but they're not.

And I think if you come against a Malcolm or Irylia, you should try to fight them. What exactly do you expect to learn by bolt escaping away?

This is kind of off topic, but I feel compelled to address this. I love to fight skilled players. The problem with those guys is that they make videos that feature other players without their consent. I will never again fight against a streamer who I am not friends with, and that's a very short list. The only 1vXer I've had a good experience with is an EP DK named Gunzork. Nice guy, for sure, and I don't mind appearing in his videos. That doesn't mean I think Malcolm or Irylia are bad guys, but what they do feeds and breeds toxicity both in the game and right here on the forums. Due to an incident involving a YouTube streamer (not any of the ones mentioned here), I received so much abuse that I actually had to change my username in the game. Just appearing in one of these guys' videos is enough to make you a target for hateful people.

So, no, I don't see a problem with using BoL or even an abrupt campaign port to "peace out" when some big shot streamer shows up. Even though I would enjoy fighting these guys (and learning from the experience), I have no desire whatsoever to appear in one of their videos.

See - i am partly inclined to agree with this. It´s one of the reasons i never cared to much to make videos or stream myself.

However you do see the problem this creates somewhat?
If malcolm or irylia or some other considered top tier player with actual stream street credibility told you bol was op - would you believe them instead of joy or me?

BoL is not OP on the live server, and I do not believe the PTS changes are nearly as extreme as you seem to think. If a "famous" Sorc came out and said it was OP, I wouldn't dispute their judgement. Instead, I would offer the argument that an OP BoL is not that big a deal in the context of of all the relentless nerfs Sorcs (and others) have to deal with. In my opinion, there are many scenarios in which it is mathematically impossible for a Sorc to win against certain specs. I expect this sort of imbalance to continue once the PTS goes live. I don't see any problem with ZOS throwing Sorcs a bone in the form of an upgraded disengagement tool.... We're going to need it.

As for the prospect of unwinnable standoffs when two Mag Sorcs meet, I see your point. But hasn't it always kind of worked this way? For years, shield stacking with Harness made these fights last forever. Now at least one or both Sorcs will have the option to just blink away instead of wasting time fruitlessly. Honestly, however, I suspect that "trash" Sorcs (like myself apparently) will have to be lucky to escape the wrath of a top wizard, whether they are using BoL or not.

Tell me more about scenarios a sorc can never win.

Also why do you think it's fine for you to escape a top sorc with them not having a single option to kill you simply by spamming one skill?

The base morph of the spell is called "Bolt Escape". What is the point of an escape spell if you can't actually use it to ... you know... ESCAPE? Do you scold Nightblades for using Cloak to escape other Nightblades?

Also, do you really believe every fight must be resolved by a duel to the death? What's wrong with saying "Nah" and heading for the door every now and then? Or do you believe some players are entitled to farm other players for AP or Tel Var no matter what? I play almost exclusively Imperial City, and I can assure you that I am not the only player down there who is very reluctant to part with Tel Var stones under any circumstances.

As for scenarios that are stacked against Mag Sorcs, there are always some every patch, although the problematic matchups change from patch to patch. Lately, well-built and well-played Stamplars are almost impossible to beat with a balanced Mag Sorc build. They put about tons of damage while taking very little. They purge Curse, they purge DOTs and they self-heal through everything else. Because they are Stamina, they can't be CC-d for more than a split second. If their health is high enough, and it always is, they can't be bursted down with a Curse-Meteor-Streak-Frag combo. While they don't usually clobber me right away, after the first POTL goes off, I can see whether the fight is going to be winnable or not. There is no point in waiting to run out of resources and keel over dead. I'm certainly not gonna let that happen when there are stones on the line. Nah, there's no shame in Streaking away when the math is stacked against you.

Yes i believe that bad players should always die to a better player no matter what.
There is nothing that should save them unless they become better players.

Also thanks for not providing any mathematical explanation as to why a sorc has to lose against a stamplar.
It might just be that the stamplar is the better player thus deserves to take your tel var and send you back to a safe zone.

Emma_Overload

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

You don't think it's insanely strong because you play a mag sorc. Yet you are often adamant that things stamina related or what other classes have is insanely strong. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because when ZOS throws their darts attempting to balance this game, they happen to always hit a bulls-eye when it comes to sorcerers, but miss the board entirely with everything else?

I don;t slot Dark Flare because the skill sucks, but I'm not going to be able to burn through a halfway decent sorc shields without using Reflective light, weaving in light attacks, or triggering my enchant/poison. Against a mobile sorc who actually uses this skill, keeping up this sort of pressure is essential. It's not like what people are saying here will remove the functionality of the sill or prevent from using it to defend against other magicka classes. They just don;t want it to be an outlier in terms of what it offers. I wouldn't care less if the other class's defensive toys were still potent, but they're not.

And I think if you come against a Malcolm or Irylia, you should try to fight them. What exactly do you expect to learn by bolt escaping away?

This is kind of off topic, but I feel compelled to address this. I love to fight skilled players. The problem with those guys is that they make videos that feature other players without their consent. I will never again fight against a streamer who I am not friends with, and that's a very short list. The only 1vXer I've had a good experience with is an EP DK named Gunzork. Nice guy, for sure, and I don't mind appearing in his videos. That doesn't mean I think Malcolm or Irylia are bad guys, but what they do feeds and breeds toxicity both in the game and right here on the forums. Due to an incident involving a YouTube streamer (not any of the ones mentioned here), I received so much abuse that I actually had to change my username in the game. Just appearing in one of these guys' videos is enough to make you a target for hateful people.

So, no, I don't see a problem with using BoL or even an abrupt campaign port to "peace out" when some big shot streamer shows up. Even though I would enjoy fighting these guys (and learning from the experience), I have no desire whatsoever to appear in one of their videos.

See - i am partly inclined to agree with this. It´s one of the reasons i never cared to much to make videos or stream myself.

However you do see the problem this creates somewhat?
If malcolm or irylia or some other considered top tier player with actual stream street credibility told you bol was op - would you believe them instead of joy or me?

BoL is not OP on the live server, and I do not believe the PTS changes are nearly as extreme as you seem to think. If a "famous" Sorc came out and said it was OP, I wouldn't dispute their judgement. Instead, I would offer the argument that an OP BoL is not that big a deal in the context of of all the relentless nerfs Sorcs (and others) have to deal with. In my opinion, there are many scenarios in which it is mathematically impossible for a Sorc to win against certain specs. I expect this sort of imbalance to continue once the PTS goes live. I don't see any problem with ZOS throwing Sorcs a bone in the form of an upgraded disengagement tool.... We're going to need it.

As for the prospect of unwinnable standoffs when two Mag Sorcs meet, I see your point. But hasn't it always kind of worked this way? For years, shield stacking with Harness made these fights last forever. Now at least one or both Sorcs will have the option to just blink away instead of wasting time fruitlessly. Honestly, however, I suspect that "trash" Sorcs (like myself apparently) will have to be lucky to escape the wrath of a top wizard, whether they are using BoL or not.

Tell me more about scenarios a sorc can never win.

Also why do you think it's fine for you to escape a top sorc with them not having a single option to kill you simply by spamming one skill?

The base morph of the spell is called "Bolt Escape". What is the point of an escape spell if you can't actually use it to ... you know... ESCAPE? Do you scold Nightblades for using Cloak to escape other Nightblades?

Also, do you really believe every fight must be resolved by a duel to the death? What's wrong with saying "Nah" and heading for the door every now and then? Or do you believe some players are entitled to farm other players for AP or Tel Var no matter what? I play almost exclusively Imperial City, and I can assure you that I am not the only player down there who is very reluctant to part with Tel Var stones under any circumstances.

As for scenarios that are stacked against Mag Sorcs, there are always some every patch, although the problematic matchups change from patch to patch. Lately, well-built and well-played Stamplars are almost impossible to beat with a balanced Mag Sorc build. They put about tons of damage while taking very little. They purge Curse, they purge DOTs and they self-heal through everything else. Because they are Stamina, they can't be CC-d for more than a split second. If their health is high enough, and it always is, they can't be bursted down with a Curse-Meteor-Streak-Frag combo. While they don't usually clobber me right away, after the first POTL goes off, I can see whether the fight is going to be winnable or not. There is no point in waiting to run out of resources and keel over dead. I'm certainly not gonna let that happen when there are stones on the line. Nah, there's no shame in Streaking away when the math is stacked against you.

Yes i believe that bad players should always die to a better player no matter what.
There is nothing that should save them unless they become better players.

Also thanks for not providing any mathematical explanation as to why a sorc has to lose against a stamplar.
It might just be that the stamplar is the better player thus deserves to take your tel var and send you back to a safe zone.

The mathematical explanation is implied by the statement "They put about tons of damage while taking very little..." My experience has been that it is possible to construct a sustainable Stamplar build that puts so much pressure on a Mag Sorc's shield that it is simply not possible to counter-attack effectively, thus perpetuating the death-spiral of shield spamming and resource depletion. You want some hard numbers? Here are the hard numbers: when a Sorc's Magicka bar reaches ZERO, his Health bar is also going to reach ZERO very soon. Is that clear enough?

BohnT2

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

You don't think it's insanely strong because you play a mag sorc. Yet you are often adamant that things stamina related or what other classes have is insanely strong. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because when ZOS throws their darts attempting to balance this game, they happen to always hit a bulls-eye when it comes to sorcerers, but miss the board entirely with everything else?

I don;t slot Dark Flare because the skill sucks, but I'm not going to be able to burn through a halfway decent sorc shields without using Reflective light, weaving in light attacks, or triggering my enchant/poison. Against a mobile sorc who actually uses this skill, keeping up this sort of pressure is essential. It's not like what people are saying here will remove the functionality of the sill or prevent from using it to defend against other magicka classes. They just don;t want it to be an outlier in terms of what it offers. I wouldn't care less if the other class's defensive toys were still potent, but they're not.

And I think if you come against a Malcolm or Irylia, you should try to fight them. What exactly do you expect to learn by bolt escaping away?

This is kind of off topic, but I feel compelled to address this. I love to fight skilled players. The problem with those guys is that they make videos that feature other players without their consent. I will never again fight against a streamer who I am not friends with, and that's a very short list. The only 1vXer I've had a good experience with is an EP DK named Gunzork. Nice guy, for sure, and I don't mind appearing in his videos. That doesn't mean I think Malcolm or Irylia are bad guys, but what they do feeds and breeds toxicity both in the game and right here on the forums. Due to an incident involving a YouTube streamer (not any of the ones mentioned here), I received so much abuse that I actually had to change my username in the game. Just appearing in one of these guys' videos is enough to make you a target for hateful people.

So, no, I don't see a problem with using BoL or even an abrupt campaign port to "peace out" when some big shot streamer shows up. Even though I would enjoy fighting these guys (and learning from the experience), I have no desire whatsoever to appear in one of their videos.

See - i am partly inclined to agree with this. It´s one of the reasons i never cared to much to make videos or stream myself.

However you do see the problem this creates somewhat?
If malcolm or irylia or some other considered top tier player with actual stream street credibility told you bol was op - would you believe them instead of joy or me?

BoL is not OP on the live server, and I do not believe the PTS changes are nearly as extreme as you seem to think. If a "famous" Sorc came out and said it was OP, I wouldn't dispute their judgement. Instead, I would offer the argument that an OP BoL is not that big a deal in the context of of all the relentless nerfs Sorcs (and others) have to deal with. In my opinion, there are many scenarios in which it is mathematically impossible for a Sorc to win against certain specs. I expect this sort of imbalance to continue once the PTS goes live. I don't see any problem with ZOS throwing Sorcs a bone in the form of an upgraded disengagement tool.... We're going to need it.

As for the prospect of unwinnable standoffs when two Mag Sorcs meet, I see your point. But hasn't it always kind of worked this way? For years, shield stacking with Harness made these fights last forever. Now at least one or both Sorcs will have the option to just blink away instead of wasting time fruitlessly. Honestly, however, I suspect that "trash" Sorcs (like myself apparently) will have to be lucky to escape the wrath of a top wizard, whether they are using BoL or not.

Tell me more about scenarios a sorc can never win.

Also why do you think it's fine for you to escape a top sorc with them not having a single option to kill you simply by spamming one skill?

The base morph of the spell is called "Bolt Escape". What is the point of an escape spell if you can't actually use it to ... you know... ESCAPE? Do you scold Nightblades for using Cloak to escape other Nightblades?

Also, do you really believe every fight must be resolved by a duel to the death? What's wrong with saying "Nah" and heading for the door every now and then? Or do you believe some players are entitled to farm other players for AP or Tel Var no matter what? I play almost exclusively Imperial City, and I can assure you that I am not the only player down there who is very reluctant to part with Tel Var stones under any circumstances.

As for scenarios that are stacked against Mag Sorcs, there are always some every patch, although the problematic matchups change from patch to patch. Lately, well-built and well-played Stamplars are almost impossible to beat with a balanced Mag Sorc build. They put about tons of damage while taking very little. They purge Curse, they purge DOTs and they self-heal through everything else. Because they are Stamina, they can't be CC-d for more than a split second. If their health is high enough, and it always is, they can't be bursted down with a Curse-Meteor-Streak-Frag combo. While they don't usually clobber me right away, after the first POTL goes off, I can see whether the fight is going to be winnable or not. There is no point in waiting to run out of resources and keel over dead. I'm certainly not gonna let that happen when there are stones on the line. Nah, there's no shame in Streaking away when the math is stacked against you.

Yes i believe that bad players should always die to a better player no matter what.
There is nothing that should save them unless they become better players.

Also thanks for not providing any mathematical explanation as to why a sorc has to lose against a stamplar.
It might just be that the stamplar is the better player thus deserves to take your tel var and send you back to a safe zone.

The mathematical explanation is implied by the statement "They put about tons of damage while taking very little..." My experience has been that it is possible to construct a sustainable Stamplar build that puts so much pressure on a Mag Sorc's shield that it is simply not possible to counter-attack effectively, thus perpetuating the death-spiral of shield spamming and resource depletion. You want some hard numbers? Here are the hard numbers: when a Sorc's Magicka bar reaches ZERO, his Health bar is also going to reach ZERO very soon. Is that clear enough?

So you fail to provide any empirical data to support your claims?
Have you played a stamplar before and were you able to kill any magsorc you met?

Because from testing on Pts i can tell you that i can stalemate any ranged mag class with BoL because i can keep 100% uptime on projectile absorb when i need it.
I can reapply it everytime my enemy has to stop pressuring me to avoid being killed by me.

Emma_Overload

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

You don't think it's insanely strong because you play a mag sorc. Yet you are often adamant that things stamina related or what other classes have is insanely strong. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because when ZOS throws their darts attempting to balance this game, they happen to always hit a bulls-eye when it comes to sorcerers, but miss the board entirely with everything else?

I don;t slot Dark Flare because the skill sucks, but I'm not going to be able to burn through a halfway decent sorc shields without using Reflective light, weaving in light attacks, or triggering my enchant/poison. Against a mobile sorc who actually uses this skill, keeping up this sort of pressure is essential. It's not like what people are saying here will remove the functionality of the sill or prevent from using it to defend against other magicka classes. They just don;t want it to be an outlier in terms of what it offers. I wouldn't care less if the other class's defensive toys were still potent, but they're not.

And I think if you come against a Malcolm or Irylia, you should try to fight them. What exactly do you expect to learn by bolt escaping away?

This is kind of off topic, but I feel compelled to address this. I love to fight skilled players. The problem with those guys is that they make videos that feature other players without their consent. I will never again fight against a streamer who I am not friends with, and that's a very short list. The only 1vXer I've had a good experience with is an EP DK named Gunzork. Nice guy, for sure, and I don't mind appearing in his videos. That doesn't mean I think Malcolm or Irylia are bad guys, but what they do feeds and breeds toxicity both in the game and right here on the forums. Due to an incident involving a YouTube streamer (not any of the ones mentioned here), I received so much abuse that I actually had to change my username in the game. Just appearing in one of these guys' videos is enough to make you a target for hateful people.

So, no, I don't see a problem with using BoL or even an abrupt campaign port to "peace out" when some big shot streamer shows up. Even though I would enjoy fighting these guys (and learning from the experience), I have no desire whatsoever to appear in one of their videos.

See - i am partly inclined to agree with this. It´s one of the reasons i never cared to much to make videos or stream myself.

However you do see the problem this creates somewhat?
If malcolm or irylia or some other considered top tier player with actual stream street credibility told you bol was op - would you believe them instead of joy or me?

BoL is not OP on the live server, and I do not believe the PTS changes are nearly as extreme as you seem to think. If a "famous" Sorc came out and said it was OP, I wouldn't dispute their judgement. Instead, I would offer the argument that an OP BoL is not that big a deal in the context of of all the relentless nerfs Sorcs (and others) have to deal with. In my opinion, there are many scenarios in which it is mathematically impossible for a Sorc to win against certain specs. I expect this sort of imbalance to continue once the PTS goes live. I don't see any problem with ZOS throwing Sorcs a bone in the form of an upgraded disengagement tool.... We're going to need it.

As for the prospect of unwinnable standoffs when two Mag Sorcs meet, I see your point. But hasn't it always kind of worked this way? For years, shield stacking with Harness made these fights last forever. Now at least one or both Sorcs will have the option to just blink away instead of wasting time fruitlessly. Honestly, however, I suspect that "trash" Sorcs (like myself apparently) will have to be lucky to escape the wrath of a top wizard, whether they are using BoL or not.

Tell me more about scenarios a sorc can never win.

Also why do you think it's fine for you to escape a top sorc with them not having a single option to kill you simply by spamming one skill?

The base morph of the spell is called "Bolt Escape". What is the point of an escape spell if you can't actually use it to ... you know... ESCAPE? Do you scold Nightblades for using Cloak to escape other Nightblades?

Also, do you really believe every fight must be resolved by a duel to the death? What's wrong with saying "Nah" and heading for the door every now and then? Or do you believe some players are entitled to farm other players for AP or Tel Var no matter what? I play almost exclusively Imperial City, and I can assure you that I am not the only player down there who is very reluctant to part with Tel Var stones under any circumstances.

As for scenarios that are stacked against Mag Sorcs, there are always some every patch, although the problematic matchups change from patch to patch. Lately, well-built and well-played Stamplars are almost impossible to beat with a balanced Mag Sorc build. They put about tons of damage while taking very little. They purge Curse, they purge DOTs and they self-heal through everything else. Because they are Stamina, they can't be CC-d for more than a split second. If their health is high enough, and it always is, they can't be bursted down with a Curse-Meteor-Streak-Frag combo. While they don't usually clobber me right away, after the first POTL goes off, I can see whether the fight is going to be winnable or not. There is no point in waiting to run out of resources and keel over dead. I'm certainly not gonna let that happen when there are stones on the line. Nah, there's no shame in Streaking away when the math is stacked against you.

Yes i believe that bad players should always die to a better player no matter what.
There is nothing that should save them unless they become better players.

Also thanks for not providing any mathematical explanation as to why a sorc has to lose against a stamplar.
It might just be that the stamplar is the better player thus deserves to take your tel var and send you back to a safe zone.

The mathematical explanation is implied by the statement "They put about tons of damage while taking very little..." My experience has been that it is possible to construct a sustainable Stamplar build that puts so much pressure on a Mag Sorc's shield that it is simply not possible to counter-attack effectively, thus perpetuating the death-spiral of shield spamming and resource depletion. You want some hard numbers? Here are the hard numbers: when a Sorc's Magicka bar reaches ZERO, his Health bar is also going to reach ZERO very soon. Is that clear enough?

So you fail to provide any empirical data to support your claims?
Have you played a stamplar before and were you able to kill any magsorc you met?

Because from testing on Pts i can tell you that i can stalemate any ranged mag class with BoL because i can keep 100% uptime on projectile absorb when i need it.
I can reapply it everytime my enemy has to stop pressuring me to avoid being killed by me.

Your comment is really funny. In the first paragraph, you completely discount my argument because it is based on my own experiences and not "empirical data". Then, in your second paragraph, you proceed to make an argument about BoL based purely on your own experience on the PTS... while failing to offer any "empirical data".

LOL, where's the spreadsheet? Where's the lab report? Is the word hypocrisy in your vocabulary? How about irony?

susmitds

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

You don't think it's insanely strong because you play a mag sorc. Yet you are often adamant that things stamina related or what other classes have is insanely strong. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because when ZOS throws their darts attempting to balance this game, they happen to always hit a bulls-eye when it comes to sorcerers, but miss the board entirely with everything else?

I don;t slot Dark Flare because the skill sucks, but I'm not going to be able to burn through a halfway decent sorc shields without using Reflective light, weaving in light attacks, or triggering my enchant/poison. Against a mobile sorc who actually uses this skill, keeping up this sort of pressure is essential. It's not like what people are saying here will remove the functionality of the sill or prevent from using it to defend against other magicka classes. They just don;t want it to be an outlier in terms of what it offers. I wouldn't care less if the other class's defensive toys were still potent, but they're not.

And I think if you come against a Malcolm or Irylia, you should try to fight them. What exactly do you expect to learn by bolt escaping away?

This is kind of off topic, but I feel compelled to address this. I love to fight skilled players. The problem with those guys is that they make videos that feature other players without their consent. I will never again fight against a streamer who I am not friends with, and that's a very short list. The only 1vXer I've had a good experience with is an EP DK named Gunzork. Nice guy, for sure, and I don't mind appearing in his videos. That doesn't mean I think Malcolm or Irylia are bad guys, but what they do feeds and breeds toxicity both in the game and right here on the forums. Due to an incident involving a YouTube streamer (not any of the ones mentioned here), I received so much abuse that I actually had to change my username in the game. Just appearing in one of these guys' videos is enough to make you a target for hateful people.

So, no, I don't see a problem with using BoL or even an abrupt campaign port to "peace out" when some big shot streamer shows up. Even though I would enjoy fighting these guys (and learning from the experience), I have no desire whatsoever to appear in one of their videos.

See - i am partly inclined to agree with this. It´s one of the reasons i never cared to much to make videos or stream myself.

However you do see the problem this creates somewhat?
If malcolm or irylia or some other considered top tier player with actual stream street credibility told you bol was op - would you believe them instead of joy or me?

BoL is not OP on the live server, and I do not believe the PTS changes are nearly as extreme as you seem to think. If a "famous" Sorc came out and said it was OP, I wouldn't dispute their judgement. Instead, I would offer the argument that an OP BoL is not that big a deal in the context of of all the relentless nerfs Sorcs (and others) have to deal with. In my opinion, there are many scenarios in which it is mathematically impossible for a Sorc to win against certain specs. I expect this sort of imbalance to continue once the PTS goes live. I don't see any problem with ZOS throwing Sorcs a bone in the form of an upgraded disengagement tool.... We're going to need it.

As for the prospect of unwinnable standoffs when two Mag Sorcs meet, I see your point. But hasn't it always kind of worked this way? For years, shield stacking with Harness made these fights last forever. Now at least one or both Sorcs will have the option to just blink away instead of wasting time fruitlessly. Honestly, however, I suspect that "trash" Sorcs (like myself apparently) will have to be lucky to escape the wrath of a top wizard, whether they are using BoL or not.

Tell me more about scenarios a sorc can never win.

Also why do you think it's fine for you to escape a top sorc with them not having a single option to kill you simply by spamming one skill?

The base morph of the spell is called "Bolt Escape". What is the point of an escape spell if you can't actually use it to ... you know... ESCAPE? Do you scold Nightblades for using Cloak to escape other Nightblades?

Also, do you really believe every fight must be resolved by a duel to the death? What's wrong with saying "Nah" and heading for the door every now and then? Or do you believe some players are entitled to farm other players for AP or Tel Var no matter what? I play almost exclusively Imperial City, and I can assure you that I am not the only player down there who is very reluctant to part with Tel Var stones under any circumstances.

As for scenarios that are stacked against Mag Sorcs, there are always some every patch, although the problematic matchups change from patch to patch. Lately, well-built and well-played Stamplars are almost impossible to beat with a balanced Mag Sorc build. They put about tons of damage while taking very little. They purge Curse, they purge DOTs and they self-heal through everything else. Because they are Stamina, they can't be CC-d for more than a split second. If their health is high enough, and it always is, they can't be bursted down with a Curse-Meteor-Streak-Frag combo. While they don't usually clobber me right away, after the first POTL goes off, I can see whether the fight is going to be winnable or not. There is no point in waiting to run out of resources and keel over dead. I'm certainly not gonna let that happen when there are stones on the line. Nah, there's no shame in Streaking away when the math is stacked against you.

Yes i believe that bad players should always die to a better player no matter what.
There is nothing that should save them unless they become better players.

Also thanks for not providing any mathematical explanation as to why a sorc has to lose against a stamplar.
It might just be that the stamplar is the better player thus deserves to take your tel var and send you back to a safe zone.

Please stop derailing this thread if you can't bring up anything constructive or ways on how a ranged magicka spec can deal with BoL absorb

BoL is super expensive and can't be spammed like spamables. The BoL will run the Sorc out of magicka far before, it can even threaten to kill you. Just staying is all. The 50% cost increase speaks for itself.

BoL has 4 sec fatigue time with 3 seconds immunity time. If you cast once every 4 seconds, you get no added costs and still have 75% uptime on ranged immunity.

And no, BoL is not costly. It is 25% cheaper per second than Cloak. My stamsorc with 15k magicka, can spam it 4 times back to back. If used after 4 seconds letting the fatigue run out, my stamsorc can get 11 casts out of it in a row. That's 44 seconds of ranged immunity and given that I can use a potion every 45 seconds, it can be kept up nearly infinitely with tri-pots.

Arciris

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

So since sorc having 100% reduction is fine for some sorcs in here can dk have 100% reduction on wings back?

As a Sorc main I was completely disheartened when they clipped DK-s wings and voiced it several times on the forums. It is such a shame what such a beautiful ability has become

BohnT2

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

You don't think it's insanely strong because you play a mag sorc. Yet you are often adamant that things stamina related or what other classes have is insanely strong. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because when ZOS throws their darts attempting to balance this game, they happen to always hit a bulls-eye when it comes to sorcerers, but miss the board entirely with everything else?

I don;t slot Dark Flare because the skill sucks, but I'm not going to be able to burn through a halfway decent sorc shields without using Reflective light, weaving in light attacks, or triggering my enchant/poison. Against a mobile sorc who actually uses this skill, keeping up this sort of pressure is essential. It's not like what people are saying here will remove the functionality of the sill or prevent from using it to defend against other magicka classes. They just don;t want it to be an outlier in terms of what it offers. I wouldn't care less if the other class's defensive toys were still potent, but they're not.

And I think if you come against a Malcolm or Irylia, you should try to fight them. What exactly do you expect to learn by bolt escaping away?

This is kind of off topic, but I feel compelled to address this. I love to fight skilled players. The problem with those guys is that they make videos that feature other players without their consent. I will never again fight against a streamer who I am not friends with, and that's a very short list. The only 1vXer I've had a good experience with is an EP DK named Gunzork. Nice guy, for sure, and I don't mind appearing in his videos. That doesn't mean I think Malcolm or Irylia are bad guys, but what they do feeds and breeds toxicity both in the game and right here on the forums. Due to an incident involving a YouTube streamer (not any of the ones mentioned here), I received so much abuse that I actually had to change my username in the game. Just appearing in one of these guys' videos is enough to make you a target for hateful people.

So, no, I don't see a problem with using BoL or even an abrupt campaign port to "peace out" when some big shot streamer shows up. Even though I would enjoy fighting these guys (and learning from the experience), I have no desire whatsoever to appear in one of their videos.

See - i am partly inclined to agree with this. It´s one of the reasons i never cared to much to make videos or stream myself.

However you do see the problem this creates somewhat?
If malcolm or irylia or some other considered top tier player with actual stream street credibility told you bol was op - would you believe them instead of joy or me?

BoL is not OP on the live server, and I do not believe the PTS changes are nearly as extreme as you seem to think. If a "famous" Sorc came out and said it was OP, I wouldn't dispute their judgement. Instead, I would offer the argument that an OP BoL is not that big a deal in the context of of all the relentless nerfs Sorcs (and others) have to deal with. In my opinion, there are many scenarios in which it is mathematically impossible for a Sorc to win against certain specs. I expect this sort of imbalance to continue once the PTS goes live. I don't see any problem with ZOS throwing Sorcs a bone in the form of an upgraded disengagement tool.... We're going to need it.

As for the prospect of unwinnable standoffs when two Mag Sorcs meet, I see your point. But hasn't it always kind of worked this way? For years, shield stacking with Harness made these fights last forever. Now at least one or both Sorcs will have the option to just blink away instead of wasting time fruitlessly. Honestly, however, I suspect that "trash" Sorcs (like myself apparently) will have to be lucky to escape the wrath of a top wizard, whether they are using BoL or not.

Tell me more about scenarios a sorc can never win.

Also why do you think it's fine for you to escape a top sorc with them not having a single option to kill you simply by spamming one skill?

The base morph of the spell is called "Bolt Escape". What is the point of an escape spell if you can't actually use it to ... you know... ESCAPE? Do you scold Nightblades for using Cloak to escape other Nightblades?

Also, do you really believe every fight must be resolved by a duel to the death? What's wrong with saying "Nah" and heading for the door every now and then? Or do you believe some players are entitled to farm other players for AP or Tel Var no matter what? I play almost exclusively Imperial City, and I can assure you that I am not the only player down there who is very reluctant to part with Tel Var stones under any circumstances.

As for scenarios that are stacked against Mag Sorcs, there are always some every patch, although the problematic matchups change from patch to patch. Lately, well-built and well-played Stamplars are almost impossible to beat with a balanced Mag Sorc build. They put about tons of damage while taking very little. They purge Curse, they purge DOTs and they self-heal through everything else. Because they are Stamina, they can't be CC-d for more than a split second. If their health is high enough, and it always is, they can't be bursted down with a Curse-Meteor-Streak-Frag combo. While they don't usually clobber me right away, after the first POTL goes off, I can see whether the fight is going to be winnable or not. There is no point in waiting to run out of resources and keel over dead. I'm certainly not gonna let that happen when there are stones on the line. Nah, there's no shame in Streaking away when the math is stacked against you.

Yes i believe that bad players should always die to a better player no matter what.
There is nothing that should save them unless they become better players.

Also thanks for not providing any mathematical explanation as to why a sorc has to lose against a stamplar.
It might just be that the stamplar is the better player thus deserves to take your tel var and send you back to a safe zone.

The mathematical explanation is implied by the statement "They put about tons of damage while taking very little..." My experience has been that it is possible to construct a sustainable Stamplar build that puts so much pressure on a Mag Sorc's shield that it is simply not possible to counter-attack effectively, thus perpetuating the death-spiral of shield spamming and resource depletion. You want some hard numbers? Here are the hard numbers: when a Sorc's Magicka bar reaches ZERO, his Health bar is also going to reach ZERO very soon. Is that clear enough?

So you fail to provide any empirical data to support your claims?
Have you played a stamplar before and were you able to kill any magsorc you met?

Because from testing on Pts i can tell you that i can stalemate any ranged mag class with BoL because i can keep 100% uptime on projectile absorb when i need it.
I can reapply it everytime my enemy has to stop pressuring me to avoid being killed by me.

Your comment is really funny. In the first paragraph, you completely discount my argument because it is based on my own experiences and not "empirical data". Then, in your second paragraph, you proceed to make an argument about BoL based purely on your own experience on the PTS... while failing to offer any "empirical data".

LOL, where's the spreadsheet? Where's the lab report? Is the word hypocrisy in your vocabulary? How about irony?

Your arguments are based on you getting your ass handed to you by other players.

My arguments are based on me failing to overcome a good sorc with BoL while making the same player failing to kill me when i start using it when both of us are able to kill the other when agreeing to not use it.

Now bring proper arguments to the table or stop derailing this post with the intention to abuse a broken skill to overcome your own weakness

BohnT2

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

You don't think it's insanely strong because you play a mag sorc. Yet you are often adamant that things stamina related or what other classes have is insanely strong. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because when ZOS throws their darts attempting to balance this game, they happen to always hit a bulls-eye when it comes to sorcerers, but miss the board entirely with everything else?

I don;t slot Dark Flare because the skill sucks, but I'm not going to be able to burn through a halfway decent sorc shields without using Reflective light, weaving in light attacks, or triggering my enchant/poison. Against a mobile sorc who actually uses this skill, keeping up this sort of pressure is essential. It's not like what people are saying here will remove the functionality of the sill or prevent from using it to defend against other magicka classes. They just don;t want it to be an outlier in terms of what it offers. I wouldn't care less if the other class's defensive toys were still potent, but they're not.

And I think if you come against a Malcolm or Irylia, you should try to fight them. What exactly do you expect to learn by bolt escaping away?

This is kind of off topic, but I feel compelled to address this. I love to fight skilled players. The problem with those guys is that they make videos that feature other players without their consent. I will never again fight against a streamer who I am not friends with, and that's a very short list. The only 1vXer I've had a good experience with is an EP DK named Gunzork. Nice guy, for sure, and I don't mind appearing in his videos. That doesn't mean I think Malcolm or Irylia are bad guys, but what they do feeds and breeds toxicity both in the game and right here on the forums. Due to an incident involving a YouTube streamer (not any of the ones mentioned here), I received so much abuse that I actually had to change my username in the game. Just appearing in one of these guys' videos is enough to make you a target for hateful people.

So, no, I don't see a problem with using BoL or even an abrupt campaign port to "peace out" when some big shot streamer shows up. Even though I would enjoy fighting these guys (and learning from the experience), I have no desire whatsoever to appear in one of their videos.

See - i am partly inclined to agree with this. It´s one of the reasons i never cared to much to make videos or stream myself.

However you do see the problem this creates somewhat?
If malcolm or irylia or some other considered top tier player with actual stream street credibility told you bol was op - would you believe them instead of joy or me?

BoL is not OP on the live server, and I do not believe the PTS changes are nearly as extreme as you seem to think. If a "famous" Sorc came out and said it was OP, I wouldn't dispute their judgement. Instead, I would offer the argument that an OP BoL is not that big a deal in the context of of all the relentless nerfs Sorcs (and others) have to deal with. In my opinion, there are many scenarios in which it is mathematically impossible for a Sorc to win against certain specs. I expect this sort of imbalance to continue once the PTS goes live. I don't see any problem with ZOS throwing Sorcs a bone in the form of an upgraded disengagement tool.... We're going to need it.

As for the prospect of unwinnable standoffs when two Mag Sorcs meet, I see your point. But hasn't it always kind of worked this way? For years, shield stacking with Harness made these fights last forever. Now at least one or both Sorcs will have the option to just blink away instead of wasting time fruitlessly. Honestly, however, I suspect that "trash" Sorcs (like myself apparently) will have to be lucky to escape the wrath of a top wizard, whether they are using BoL or not.

Tell me more about scenarios a sorc can never win.

Also why do you think it's fine for you to escape a top sorc with them not having a single option to kill you simply by spamming one skill?

The base morph of the spell is called "Bolt Escape". What is the point of an escape spell if you can't actually use it to ... you know... ESCAPE? Do you scold Nightblades for using Cloak to escape other Nightblades?

Also, do you really believe every fight must be resolved by a duel to the death? What's wrong with saying "Nah" and heading for the door every now and then? Or do you believe some players are entitled to farm other players for AP or Tel Var no matter what? I play almost exclusively Imperial City, and I can assure you that I am not the only player down there who is very reluctant to part with Tel Var stones under any circumstances.

As for scenarios that are stacked against Mag Sorcs, there are always some every patch, although the problematic matchups change from patch to patch. Lately, well-built and well-played Stamplars are almost impossible to beat with a balanced Mag Sorc build. They put about tons of damage while taking very little. They purge Curse, they purge DOTs and they self-heal through everything else. Because they are Stamina, they can't be CC-d for more than a split second. If their health is high enough, and it always is, they can't be bursted down with a Curse-Meteor-Streak-Frag combo. While they don't usually clobber me right away, after the first POTL goes off, I can see whether the fight is going to be winnable or not. There is no point in waiting to run out of resources and keel over dead. I'm certainly not gonna let that happen when there are stones on the line. Nah, there's no shame in Streaking away when the math is stacked against you.

Yes i believe that bad players should always die to a better player no matter what.
There is nothing that should save them unless they become better players.

Also thanks for not providing any mathematical explanation as to why a sorc has to lose against a stamplar.
It might just be that the stamplar is the better player thus deserves to take your tel var and send you back to a safe zone.

Please stop derailing this thread if you can't bring up anything constructive or ways on how a ranged magicka spec can deal with BoL absorb

BoL is super expensive and can't be spammed like spamables. The BoL will run the Sorc out of magicka far before, it can even threaten to kill you. Just staying is all. The 50% cost increase speaks for itself.

Please stop spreading false information on the forums.
The streak fatigue is 33%

FearlessOne_2014

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

You don't think it's insanely strong because you play a mag sorc. Yet you are often adamant that things stamina related or what other classes have is insanely strong. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because when ZOS throws their darts attempting to balance this game, they happen to always hit a bulls-eye when it comes to sorcerers, but miss the board entirely with everything else?

I don;t slot Dark Flare because the skill sucks, but I'm not going to be able to burn through a halfway decent sorc shields without using Reflective light, weaving in light attacks, or triggering my enchant/poison. Against a mobile sorc who actually uses this skill, keeping up this sort of pressure is essential. It's not like what people are saying here will remove the functionality of the sill or prevent from using it to defend against other magicka classes. They just don;t want it to be an outlier in terms of what it offers. I wouldn't care less if the other class's defensive toys were still potent, but they're not.

And I think if you come against a Malcolm or Irylia, you should try to fight them. What exactly do you expect to learn by bolt escaping away?

This is kind of off topic, but I feel compelled to address this. I love to fight skilled players. The problem with those guys is that they make videos that feature other players without their consent. I will never again fight against a streamer who I am not friends with, and that's a very short list. The only 1vXer I've had a good experience with is an EP DK named Gunzork. Nice guy, for sure, and I don't mind appearing in his videos. That doesn't mean I think Malcolm or Irylia are bad guys, but what they do feeds and breeds toxicity both in the game and right here on the forums. Due to an incident involving a YouTube streamer (not any of the ones mentioned here), I received so much abuse that I actually had to change my username in the game. Just appearing in one of these guys' videos is enough to make you a target for hateful people.

So, no, I don't see a problem with using BoL or even an abrupt campaign port to "peace out" when some big shot streamer shows up. Even though I would enjoy fighting these guys (and learning from the experience), I have no desire whatsoever to appear in one of their videos.

See - i am partly inclined to agree with this. It´s one of the reasons i never cared to much to make videos or stream myself.

However you do see the problem this creates somewhat?
If malcolm or irylia or some other considered top tier player with actual stream street credibility told you bol was op - would you believe them instead of joy or me?

BoL is not OP on the live server, and I do not believe the PTS changes are nearly as extreme as you seem to think. If a "famous" Sorc came out and said it was OP, I wouldn't dispute their judgement. Instead, I would offer the argument that an OP BoL is not that big a deal in the context of of all the relentless nerfs Sorcs (and others) have to deal with. In my opinion, there are many scenarios in which it is mathematically impossible for a Sorc to win against certain specs. I expect this sort of imbalance to continue once the PTS goes live. I don't see any problem with ZOS throwing Sorcs a bone in the form of an upgraded disengagement tool.... We're going to need it.

As for the prospect of unwinnable standoffs when two Mag Sorcs meet, I see your point. But hasn't it always kind of worked this way? For years, shield stacking with Harness made these fights last forever. Now at least one or both Sorcs will have the option to just blink away instead of wasting time fruitlessly. Honestly, however, I suspect that "trash" Sorcs (like myself apparently) will have to be lucky to escape the wrath of a top wizard, whether they are using BoL or not.

Tell me more about scenarios a sorc can never win.

Also why do you think it's fine for you to escape a top sorc with them not having a single option to kill you simply by spamming one skill?

The base morph of the spell is called "Bolt Escape". What is the point of an escape spell if you can't actually use it to ... you know... ESCAPE? Do you scold Nightblades for using Cloak to escape other Nightblades?

Also, do you really believe every fight must be resolved by a duel to the death? What's wrong with saying "Nah" and heading for the door every now and then? Or do you believe some players are entitled to farm other players for AP or Tel Var no matter what? I play almost exclusively Imperial City, and I can assure you that I am not the only player down there who is very reluctant to part with Tel Var stones under any circumstances.

As for scenarios that are stacked against Mag Sorcs, there are always some every patch, although the problematic matchups change from patch to patch. Lately, well-built and well-played Stamplars are almost impossible to beat with a balanced Mag Sorc build. They put about tons of damage while taking very little. They purge Curse, they purge DOTs and they self-heal through everything else. Because they are Stamina, they can't be CC-d for more than a split second. If their health is high enough, and it always is, they can't be bursted down with a Curse-Meteor-Streak-Frag combo. While they don't usually clobber me right away, after the first POTL goes off, I can see whether the fight is going to be winnable or not. There is no point in waiting to run out of resources and keel over dead. I'm certainly not gonna let that happen when there are stones on the line. Nah, there's no shame in Streaking away when the math is stacked against you.

Yes i believe that bad players should always die to a better player no matter what.
There is nothing that should save them unless they become better players.

Also thanks for not providing any mathematical explanation as to why a sorc has to lose against a stamplar.
It might just be that the stamplar is the better player thus deserves to take your tel var and send you back to a safe zone.

The mathematical explanation is implied by the statement "They put about tons of damage while taking very little..." My experience has been that it is possible to construct a sustainable Stamplar build that puts so much pressure on a Mag Sorc's shield that it is simply not possible to counter-attack effectively, thus perpetuating the death-spiral of shield spamming and resource depletion. You want some hard numbers? Here are the hard numbers: when a Sorc's Magicka bar reaches ZERO, his Health bar is also going to reach ZERO very soon. Is that clear enough?

So you fail to provide any empirical data to support your claims?
Have you played a stamplar before and were you able to kill any magsorc you met?

Because from testing on Pts i can tell you that i can stalemate any ranged mag class with BoL because i can keep 100% uptime on projectile absorb when i need it.
I can reapply it everytime my enemy has to stop pressuring me to avoid being killed by me.

Your comment is really funny. In the first paragraph, you completely discount my argument because it is based on my own experiences and not "empirical data". Then, in your second paragraph, you proceed to make an argument about BoL based purely on your own experience on the PTS... while failing to offer any "empirical data".

LOL, where's the spreadsheet? Where's the lab report? Is the word hypocrisy in your vocabulary? How about irony?

Your arguments are based on you getting your ass handed to you by other players.

My arguments are based on me failing to overcome a good sorc with BoL while making the same player failing to kill me when i start using it when both of us are able to kill the other when agreeing to not use it.

Now bring proper arguments to the table or stop derailing this post with the intention to abuse a broken skill to overcome your own weakness

What is so broken about BoL that is not many times broken with cloak?

-- BoL vs Cloak

- increase to cast cost vs none, highly spammable
- Only blocks magicka range for 2sec vs blocks everything
- Countered by numerous gap closers vs only a few melee counters
- don't buff offensive attacks vs does buffs offensive attacks

So again what is so broken about BoL? Are are you just one of those Nerf Sorc fanatics.

BohnT2

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

You don't think it's insanely strong because you play a mag sorc. Yet you are often adamant that things stamina related or what other classes have is insanely strong. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because when ZOS throws their darts attempting to balance this game, they happen to always hit a bulls-eye when it comes to sorcerers, but miss the board entirely with everything else?

I don;t slot Dark Flare because the skill sucks, but I'm not going to be able to burn through a halfway decent sorc shields without using Reflective light, weaving in light attacks, or triggering my enchant/poison. Against a mobile sorc who actually uses this skill, keeping up this sort of pressure is essential. It's not like what people are saying here will remove the functionality of the sill or prevent from using it to defend against other magicka classes. They just don;t want it to be an outlier in terms of what it offers. I wouldn't care less if the other class's defensive toys were still potent, but they're not.

And I think if you come against a Malcolm or Irylia, you should try to fight them. What exactly do you expect to learn by bolt escaping away?

This is kind of off topic, but I feel compelled to address this. I love to fight skilled players. The problem with those guys is that they make videos that feature other players without their consent. I will never again fight against a streamer who I am not friends with, and that's a very short list. The only 1vXer I've had a good experience with is an EP DK named Gunzork. Nice guy, for sure, and I don't mind appearing in his videos. That doesn't mean I think Malcolm or Irylia are bad guys, but what they do feeds and breeds toxicity both in the game and right here on the forums. Due to an incident involving a YouTube streamer (not any of the ones mentioned here), I received so much abuse that I actually had to change my username in the game. Just appearing in one of these guys' videos is enough to make you a target for hateful people.

So, no, I don't see a problem with using BoL or even an abrupt campaign port to "peace out" when some big shot streamer shows up. Even though I would enjoy fighting these guys (and learning from the experience), I have no desire whatsoever to appear in one of their videos.

See - i am partly inclined to agree with this. It´s one of the reasons i never cared to much to make videos or stream myself.

However you do see the problem this creates somewhat?
If malcolm or irylia or some other considered top tier player with actual stream street credibility told you bol was op - would you believe them instead of joy or me?

BoL is not OP on the live server, and I do not believe the PTS changes are nearly as extreme as you seem to think. If a "famous" Sorc came out and said it was OP, I wouldn't dispute their judgement. Instead, I would offer the argument that an OP BoL is not that big a deal in the context of of all the relentless nerfs Sorcs (and others) have to deal with. In my opinion, there are many scenarios in which it is mathematically impossible for a Sorc to win against certain specs. I expect this sort of imbalance to continue once the PTS goes live. I don't see any problem with ZOS throwing Sorcs a bone in the form of an upgraded disengagement tool.... We're going to need it.

As for the prospect of unwinnable standoffs when two Mag Sorcs meet, I see your point. But hasn't it always kind of worked this way? For years, shield stacking with Harness made these fights last forever. Now at least one or both Sorcs will have the option to just blink away instead of wasting time fruitlessly. Honestly, however, I suspect that "trash" Sorcs (like myself apparently) will have to be lucky to escape the wrath of a top wizard, whether they are using BoL or not.

Tell me more about scenarios a sorc can never win.

Also why do you think it's fine for you to escape a top sorc with them not having a single option to kill you simply by spamming one skill?

The base morph of the spell is called "Bolt Escape". What is the point of an escape spell if you can't actually use it to ... you know... ESCAPE? Do you scold Nightblades for using Cloak to escape other Nightblades?

Also, do you really believe every fight must be resolved by a duel to the death? What's wrong with saying "Nah" and heading for the door every now and then? Or do you believe some players are entitled to farm other players for AP or Tel Var no matter what? I play almost exclusively Imperial City, and I can assure you that I am not the only player down there who is very reluctant to part with Tel Var stones under any circumstances.

As for scenarios that are stacked against Mag Sorcs, there are always some every patch, although the problematic matchups change from patch to patch. Lately, well-built and well-played Stamplars are almost impossible to beat with a balanced Mag Sorc build. They put about tons of damage while taking very little. They purge Curse, they purge DOTs and they self-heal through everything else. Because they are Stamina, they can't be CC-d for more than a split second. If their health is high enough, and it always is, they can't be bursted down with a Curse-Meteor-Streak-Frag combo. While they don't usually clobber me right away, after the first POTL goes off, I can see whether the fight is going to be winnable or not. There is no point in waiting to run out of resources and keel over dead. I'm certainly not gonna let that happen when there are stones on the line. Nah, there's no shame in Streaking away when the math is stacked against you.

Yes i believe that bad players should always die to a better player no matter what.
There is nothing that should save them unless they become better players.

Also thanks for not providing any mathematical explanation as to why a sorc has to lose against a stamplar.
It might just be that the stamplar is the better player thus deserves to take your tel var and send you back to a safe zone.

The mathematical explanation is implied by the statement "They put about tons of damage while taking very little..." My experience has been that it is possible to construct a sustainable Stamplar build that puts so much pressure on a Mag Sorc's shield that it is simply not possible to counter-attack effectively, thus perpetuating the death-spiral of shield spamming and resource depletion. You want some hard numbers? Here are the hard numbers: when a Sorc's Magicka bar reaches ZERO, his Health bar is also going to reach ZERO very soon. Is that clear enough?

So you fail to provide any empirical data to support your claims?
Have you played a stamplar before and were you able to kill any magsorc you met?

Because from testing on Pts i can tell you that i can stalemate any ranged mag class with BoL because i can keep 100% uptime on projectile absorb when i need it.
I can reapply it everytime my enemy has to stop pressuring me to avoid being killed by me.

Your comment is really funny. In the first paragraph, you completely discount my argument because it is based on my own experiences and not "empirical data". Then, in your second paragraph, you proceed to make an argument about BoL based purely on your own experience on the PTS... while failing to offer any "empirical data".

LOL, where's the spreadsheet? Where's the lab report? Is the word hypocrisy in your vocabulary? How about irony?

Your arguments are based on you getting your ass handed to you by other players.

My arguments are based on me failing to overcome a good sorc with BoL while making the same player failing to kill me when i start using it when both of us are able to kill the other when agreeing to not use it.

Now bring proper arguments to the table or stop derailing this post with the intention to abuse a broken skill to overcome your own weakness

What is so broken about BoL that is not many times broken with cloak?

-- BoL vs Cloak

- 50% increase to cast cost vs none, highly spammable
- Only blocks magicka range for 2sec vs blocks everything
- Countered by numerous gap closers vs only a few melee counters
- don't buff offensive attacks vs does buffs offensive attacks

So again what is so broken about BoL? Are are you just one of those Nerf Sorc fanatics.

Stop repeating the false information about streak fatigue being 50%.
Stop derailing this post with calls for getting the same answers again.
Re-read this post to get any answer for your question as to why BoL is overperforming

Arciris

So, in this thread, it's just more of the same old forums: people looking at a skill in a vacuum and screaming OP, Nerf please. That is why I brought Cloak into the conversation, to give perspective.

What is a ranged caster going to do against a ranged NB caster? Watch them vanish in the shadows, that's what they are going to do!
Because Cloak negates all ranged damage and you cant even close the gap cause you don't have a target to gap close too! So don't give the BS that BoL is annoying to fight as a ranged caster, at least you have a target to fight lol.

Has any of you consider that if builds were not so pigeonholded, some abilities may not be as strong as they seem?
Of course if you slot only projectiles your build is going to be hard countered easily (roll dodge anyone?). maybe what you should all be asking for is for the Devs to give us more non-projectile abilities actually worth using?

And lol at people who want the ability nerfed now rather than later. Nerfs are inevitable, can we at least have some skills worth using for a patch or two?
Because all this whinning is going to end in both BoL and Streak being useless in all scenarios.

Anyway all this bickering among ourselves is pointless, there's only one direction this game PvP is headed, I think anyone can see it.

Derra

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

See - i am partly inclined to agree with this. It´s one of the reasons i never cared to much to make videos or stream myself.

However you do see the problem this creates somewhat?
If malcolm or irylia or some other considered top tier player with actual stream street credibility told you bol was op - would you believe them instead of joy or me?

BoL is not OP on the live server, and I do not believe the PTS changes are nearly as extreme as you seem to think. If a "famous" Sorc came out and said it was OP, I wouldn't dispute their judgement. Instead, I would offer the argument that an OP BoL is not that big a deal in the context of of all the relentless nerfs Sorcs (and others) have to deal with. In my opinion, there are many scenarios in which it is mathematically impossible for a Sorc to win against certain specs. I expect this sort of imbalance to continue once the PTS goes live. I don't see any problem with ZOS throwing Sorcs a bone in the form of an upgraded disengagement tool.... We're going to need it.

As for the prospect of unwinnable standoffs when two Mag Sorcs meet, I see your point. But hasn't it always kind of worked this way? For years, shield stacking with Harness made these fights last forever. Now at least one or both Sorcs will have the option to just blink away instead of wasting time fruitlessly. Honestly, however, I suspect that "trash" Sorcs (like myself apparently) will have to be lucky to escape the wrath of a top wizard, whether they are using BoL or not.

Bolded is the issue though.
Buffing sorc defense isn´t going to help win those fights. And it makes buffs to the overall lacking offensive capacities of sorcs against tankier opponents even less likely.

I 100% agree that sorc has some issues at the moment.
I just don´t think any of them can be related to BOL and buffing the ability to the state it´s on pts will just result in further nerfs.

It´s gonna be a reversed rune cage debacle - where ppl don´t cry about dying to the sorc but about not being able to touch them and will probably lead to similar repercussions.

IAVITNI

Arciris wrote: »

So, in this thread, it's just more of the same old forums: people looking at a skill in a vacuum and screaming OP, Nerf please. That is why I brought Cloak into the conversation, to give perspective.

What is a ranged caster going to do against a ranged NB caster? Watch them vanish in the shadows, that's what they are going to do!
Because Cloak negates all ranged damage and you cant even close the gap cause you don't have a target to gap close too! So don't give the BS that BoL is annoying to fight as a ranged caster, at least you have a target to fight lol.

Has any of you consider that if builds were not so pigeonholded, some abilities may not be as strong as they seem?
Of course if you slot only projectiles your build is going to be hard countered easily (roll dodge anyone?). maybe what you should all be asking for is for the Devs to give us more non-projectile abilities actually worth using?

And lol at people who want the ability nerfed now rather than later. Nerfs are inevitable, can we at least have some skills worth using for a patch or two?
Because all this whinning is going to end in both BoL and Streak being useless in all scenarios.

Anyway all this bickering among ourselves is pointless, there's only one direction this game PvP is headed, I think anyone can see it.

Cloak spam (not cloak itself) is a controversial topic and is considered to be a broken mechanic itself. Using a broken mechanic to justify a broken mechanic is the fallacy here.

As for why it is best to nerf BoL now
1.The absorb lasts way too long
2. The stun change encroaches on streaks identity as the offensive morph
3. Snare immunity/removal isn’t needed on the skill and would be more balanced on an ability like boundless, though this is opinionated

For point 3. Making boundless worth the slot would make sorc more mobile in general and is more balanced as it requires an additional gcd. Even on hurricane it would be a kiss/curse. I really haven’t heard any argument to not put the removal/immunity on living lightning and morphs other then the fact that because Streak will be trash next patch bol must be decent

Points 2. And 3. Won’t really affect balance overall but in terms of class identity and health they have long term impact

If you’ve played sorc long enough you’d understand why we don’t want to be overbuffed. Mages fury and bolt escape has made sorcs one of the most hated classes. The class is hardly ever “balanced” but swings from potato level to completely busted. As a sorc main I want my class to be healthy. Not op or useless.

Chilly-McFreeze

IAVITNI wrote: »

I really haven’t heard any argument to not put the removal/immunity on living lightning and morphs other then the fact that because Streak will be trash next patch bol must be decent

I certainly agree with your remarks but I fear they would nerf Hurricane in some way if they add snare immunity on it. Not that it's needed on a stamsorc anyway with FM, Shuffle or RaT as other tools. They took the synergy from Hurricane it had with Implosion (for better or for worse) and already nerfed it's damage in the past. I just doubt they would give us a handout on this one without any repercussion. It would probably be better if snare removal just goes to boundless storm.

Arciris

IAVITNI wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

So, in this thread, it's just more of the same old forums: people looking at a skill in a vacuum and screaming OP, Nerf please. That is why I brought Cloak into the conversation, to give perspective.

What is a ranged caster going to do against a ranged NB caster? Watch them vanish in the shadows, that's what they are going to do!
Because Cloak negates all ranged damage and you cant even close the gap cause you don't have a target to gap close too! So don't give the BS that BoL is annoying to fight as a ranged caster, at least you have a target to fight lol.

Has any of you consider that if builds were not so pigeonholded, some abilities may not be as strong as they seem?
Of course if you slot only projectiles your build is going to be hard countered easily (roll dodge anyone?). maybe what you should all be asking for is for the Devs to give us more non-projectile abilities actually worth using?

And lol at people who want the ability nerfed now rather than later. Nerfs are inevitable, can we at least have some skills worth using for a patch or two?
Because all this whinning is going to end in both BoL and Streak being useless in all scenarios.

Anyway all this bickering among ourselves is pointless, there's only one direction this game PvP is headed, I think anyone can see it.

Cloak spam (not cloak itself) is a controversial topic and is considered to be a broken mechanic itself. Using a broken mechanic to justify a broken mechanic is the fallacy here.

As for why it is best to nerf BoL now
1.The absorb lasts way too long
2. The stun change encroaches on streaks identity as the offensive morph
3. Snare immunity/removal isn’t needed on the skill and would be more balanced on an ability like boundless, though this is opinionated

For point 3. Making boundless worth the slot would make sorc more mobile in general and is more balanced as it requires an additional gcd. Even on hurricane it would be a kiss/curse. I really haven’t heard any argument to not put the removal/immunity on living lightning and morphs other then the fact that because Streak will be trash next patch bol must be decent

Points 2. And 3. Won’t really affect balance overall but in terms of class identity and health they have long term impact

If you’ve played sorc long enough you’d understand why we don’t want to be overbuffed. Mages fury and bolt escape has made sorcs one of the most hated classes. The class is hardly ever “balanced” but swings from potato level to completely busted. As a sorc main I want my class to be healthy. Not op or useless.

I understand your point of view and it's not that I disagree with it, just with the outcome of the request. Most likely they will butcher Bolt Escape both morphs before Live just because some people are actually reasonable

And yes, I've been long enough both in game and on the forums to know that from "broken" ability nerf to broken" ability nerf, we went from a game that had tons of "broken" abilities, with a healthy PvP population, to a Cyro-Ghost-Town, a game combat system that is loosing it's fun really rapidly for the sake of a mythical "balance" that will never happen.

Hatred between classes, although absolutely silly, will always happen, as long as there is Class identity lol. If you have something unique, those who don't have it will hate the whole class for it.

Bolt Escape hatred will never stop as long as there is one sorc able to actually pull one escape with it. Just read the entire thread, some people really think that "escaping" shouldn't be allowed lol.
Those are probably the same people complaining about any kind of damage mitigation, from shields, healing, Heavy Armor, SnB etc... They will never stop untill this MMORPG becomes a MOBA or FPS game and/or they can one shot everyone on sight, with no counter-play available.
At this point I came to think ZoS should just sell a special Target Dummy, one that sends hate tells, to make a big chunk of our PvP "community" wet themselves

edit: typos

MartiniDaniels

It is interesting how Protective Plate and Ball of Lightning can exist in same patch, when both classes were reviewed in U24 for class identity. BoL have at least double of Wings functionality for similar cost.

Both provide snare/immobilization immunity for 2 seconds.

3 seconds of projectile immunity is comparable to 50% projectile damage reduction for 6 seconds. (though immunity is better because sorc avoids debuffs from projectiles while DK receives all of them)

Here Wings functionality ends (12% healing received passive is provided by volatile armor on 99% of DK builds, both mag and stam).
But BoL main functionality only begins - stun + gap closer + escape tool. For 270 more magicka.

Bashev

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

It is interesting how Protective Plate and Ball of Lightning can exist in same patch, when both classes were reviewed in U24 for class identity. BoL have at least double of Wings functionality for similar cost.

Both provide snare/immobilization immunity for 2 seconds.

3 seconds of projectile immunity is comparable to 50% projectile damage reduction for 6 seconds. (though immunity is better because sorc avoids debuffs from projectiles while DK receives all of them)

Here Wings functionality ends (12% healing received passive is provided by volatile armor on 99% of DK builds, both mag and stam).
But BoL main functionality only begins - stun + gap closer + escape tool. For 270 more magicka.

DKs are not Sorcs or NBs, so their nerfs will be never reverted.

MartiniDaniels

Bashev wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

It is interesting how Protective Plate and Ball of Lightning can exist in same patch, when both classes were reviewed in U24 for class identity. BoL have at least double of Wings functionality for similar cost.

Both provide snare/immobilization immunity for 2 seconds.

3 seconds of projectile immunity is comparable to 50% projectile damage reduction for 6 seconds. (though immunity is better because sorc avoids debuffs from projectiles while DK receives all of them)

Here Wings functionality ends (12% healing received passive is provided by volatile armor on 99% of DK builds, both mag and stam).
But BoL main functionality only begins - stun + gap closer + escape tool. For 270 more magicka.

DKs are not Sorcs or NBs, so their nerfs will be never reverted.

I may understand 10% difference, even 25% difference, everything is subjective and devs may think something is more valuable. But DOUBLE DIFFERENCE? I mean this is obvious as day, BoL gives absolutely the same as wings + gap closer + escape tool + stun. Do we have power budget? So many iconic class abilities were butchered this year for "standardization" and now we see this? Stun+gap closer+projectile immunity+snare immunity for 3.7k before reductions? If we just add standard sorc's 6% cost reduction it will already same cost as Wings.

Bashev

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

It is interesting how Protective Plate and Ball of Lightning can exist in same patch, when both classes were reviewed in U24 for class identity. BoL have at least double of Wings functionality for similar cost.

Both provide snare/immobilization immunity for 2 seconds.

3 seconds of projectile immunity is comparable to 50% projectile damage reduction for 6 seconds. (though immunity is better because sorc avoids debuffs from projectiles while DK receives all of them)

Here Wings functionality ends (12% healing received passive is provided by volatile armor on 99% of DK builds, both mag and stam).
But BoL main functionality only begins - stun + gap closer + escape tool. For 270 more magicka.

DKs are not Sorcs or NBs, so their nerfs will be never reverted.

I may understand 10% difference, even 25% difference, everything is subjective and devs may think something is more valuable. But DOUBLE DIFFERENCE? I mean this is obvious as day, BoL gives absolutely the same as wings + gap closer + escape tool + stun. Do we have power budget? So many iconic class abilities were butchered this year for "standardization" and now we see this? Stun+gap closer+projectile immunity+snare immunity for 3.7k before reductions? If we just add standard sorc's 6% cost reduction it will already same cost as Wings.

I feel your pain.
Here is my topic that I created long time ago.

MartiniDaniels

Bashev wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

It is interesting how Protective Plate and Ball of Lightning can exist in same patch, when both classes were reviewed in U24 for class identity. BoL have at least double of Wings functionality for similar cost.

Both provide snare/immobilization immunity for 2 seconds.

3 seconds of projectile immunity is comparable to 50% projectile damage reduction for 6 seconds. (though immunity is better because sorc avoids debuffs from projectiles while DK receives all of them)

Here Wings functionality ends (12% healing received passive is provided by volatile armor on 99% of DK builds, both mag and stam).
But BoL main functionality only begins - stun + gap closer + escape tool. For 270 more magicka.

DKs are not Sorcs or NBs, so their nerfs will be never reverted.

I may understand 10% difference, even 25% difference, everything is subjective and devs may think something is more valuable. But DOUBLE DIFFERENCE? I mean this is obvious as day, BoL gives absolutely the same as wings + gap closer + escape tool + stun. Do we have power budget? So many iconic class abilities were butchered this year for "standardization" and now we see this? Stun+gap closer+projectile immunity+snare immunity for 3.7k before reductions? If we just add standard sorc's 6% cost reduction it will already same cost as Wings.

I feel your pain.
Here is my topic that I created long time ago.

I really don't know what to say about this re-balances after U24. All the gutting in U21, U22, U23 was under the flag - "we remove hard counters" and now they with all seriousness roll out legal invincibility with offensive kit on PTS?

IAVITNI

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

I really haven’t heard any argument to not put the removal/immunity on living lightning and morphs other then the fact that because Streak will be trash next patch bol must be decent

I certainly agree with your remarks but I fear they would nerf Hurricane in some way if they add snare immunity on it. Not that it's needed on a stamsorc anyway with FM, Shuffle or RaT as other tools. They took the synergy from Hurricane it had with Implosion (for better or for worse) and already nerfed it's damage in the past. I just doubt they would give us a handout on this one without any repercussion. It would probably be better if snare removal just goes to boundless storm.

I agree. I don't think it's necessary on hurricane, but neither is it necessary on BoL. I'm simply going along with the perceived intent from ZoS. Seems like they are trying to further push mobility as sorc identity for both mag and stam. Hyper loading BoL with that much mobile utility is indicative of that, imo. Sorcs are one of the last classes to die due to snares. So while it is a welcome change it has minimal impact. As someone who works closely with CI, it's mind boggling how ZoS decides to spend their resources. I actually emailed them a text book to project management hehe. Anyways...

What's sad is that instead of discussing what will result in overall balance for both the game as a whole and specifically with class health, we need to account for dev pride and rescinding on what are universally agreed upon bad changes.

I can get behind damage and cost changes. There is a logical basis to it when you consider that this is a new team that wants to establish a baseline to build upon.

What REALLY irks me is the fact that the standardization is not standard across classes (wings v BoL) and that these changes to BoL directly conflict with the primary functions of other class abilities. Instead of increasing in-class ability diversity they are creating another dead skill (Streak) and further burying Rune

IAVITNI

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

It is interesting how Protective Plate and Ball of Lightning can exist in same patch, when both classes were reviewed in U24 for class identity. BoL have at least double of Wings functionality for similar cost.

Both provide snare/immobilization immunity for 2 seconds.

3 seconds of projectile immunity is comparable to 50% projectile damage reduction for 6 seconds. (though immunity is better because sorc avoids debuffs from projectiles while DK receives all of them)

Here Wings functionality ends (12% healing received passive is provided by volatile armor on 99% of DK builds, both mag and stam).
But BoL main functionality only begins - stun + gap closer + escape tool. For 270 more magicka.

The change to DK wings, while necessary imo, was implemented poorly. I am a mag sorc main after all so I was very aware of how domineering wings could be against magSorcs/magBlades.

That said a simple solution to preserve identity would have been to have wings reflect all projectiles for 2 seconds followed by 4-6 seconds of the 50% ranged mitigation. These types of changes are harder to implement ofc.

What ZoS fails to realize is that by relying on short-term cost-effective solutions they are creating larger costs and resource strains for them down the road. A game like ESO doesn't need constant meta shifts as it is largely content/RP driven.

They probably look at the race/name change token sales at the end of every period and see those surges as an accomplishment and use it to justify the loss of player base. Sure the game may be growing but not because of meta shifts. Instead of simply gaining +x players every patch they instead gain x-y players, where y are players leaving due to the constant shifts. Quite frankly, TES has enough of a market that it will generate sales on name alone, which it currently does. They don't need meta shifts (at least not these swings) because the competitive nature is already so low.

Compounding this issue is the lack of communication on their part. They can't even properly define class identity.

Take Stone Fist for example. In terms of damage mechanics, its actually conceptually sound. It's biggest issues are the animation (identity) and lack of actual impact (numbers-wise the "class-spammable" is actually more of a utility skill).

If say for example, ZoS had changed the animation to suit the DK more visually and the effects been more DK focused as opposed to group oriented, its reception would likely have been much better.

If ZoS played their game at all they would know that BoL/Streak did not need adjustments whereas skills like Boundless, Rune Cage, Daedric Mines, Ensare and pets could have use an overhaul. Instead they allocate resources to pointless endeavours that actually degrade the quality of their game. They are literally paying their staff to reduce the quality of their product.