Magicka Sorcs Against Ball of Lightning-Updated

Calboy · October 2019

I agree, ball of lightning offers way too much. I like that and think all skills should be like that but in a time when zos is simplifying everything why are they giving magsorcs special treatment? Between this and the new crit surge which will be 33% better, magsorcs will be the new meta. Especially when their damage doesn't rely on the dots which have been nerfed to oblivion, even after the 'buff' in 5.2.2.

@Emma_Overload stop being so biased, we all get that you love your magsorc but come on let's have some balance here.

SipofMaim · October 2019

It's hilariously overtuned, no idea what they're thinking. Maybe they're just trying to counterbalance their own heavy-handed nerfs in other parts of the sorc kit this patch. It's not as bad as the rune cage fiasco... but yeah, we all know what happened to rune cage.

It's depressing to watch the iconic class skills fall or be made unrecognizable, one by one.

Arciris · October 2019

Cadbury wrote: »

@Arciris

Your post just reminded me of that quote. More of a failed attempt at humor than a jab at you. But sorry you were offended.

Not offended at all, I never get offended by anonymous people on the internet, I mean, why should I care?

Also, a good Nietzsche quote always puts a smile on my face, as an avid Nietzsche reader in my youth, as well as someone who actually started College with 2 years of Philosophy

The quote was only misplaced as it didn't applied to this very specific case, imo. But all good

Calboy · October 2019

SipofMaim wrote: »

It's hilariously overtuned, no idea what they're thinking. Maybe they're just trying to counterbalance their own heavy-handed nerfs in other parts of the sorc kit this patch. It's not as bad as the rune cage fiasco... but yeah, we all know what happened to rune cage.

It's depressing to watch the iconic class skills fall or be made unrecognizable, one by one.

If this change goes through, this will be the 'ball of lightning fiasco' after zos reverts its buff and nerfs the skill making both morphs unusable.

Emma_Overload · October 2019

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

Emma_Overload · October 2019

Calboy wrote: »

I agree, ball of lightning offers way too much. I like that and think all skills should be like that but in a time when zos is simplifying everything why are they giving magsorcs special treatment? Between this and the new crit surge which will be 33% better, magsorcs will be the new meta. Especially when their damage doesn't rely on the dots which have been nerfed to oblivion, even after the 'buff' in 5.2.2.

@Emma_Overload stop being so biased, we all get that you love your magsorc but come on let's have some balance here.

LOL, Mag Sorcs are not going to be the "new meta". That won't ever happen until at least two of the following are true:

1) Cloak is nerfed into Oblivion.

2) Stamina is balanced with Magicka.

3) Sorcs gain access to a reliable burst Ultimate.

Mag Sorcs have never been PvP meta anywhere except in the forum hive-mind. I don't see how a tiny tweak to BoL is going to change that. Crit Surge is a joke on the Live server. Where are you getting this "33% better" from? Did it get buffed on PTS this week, because there wasn't anything in the patch notes? I already use it with Spell Power pots, and I'm convinced it's just a placebo so I can pretend I have a class heal. Rapid Regen does all the real healing.

MartiniDaniels · October 2019

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

I agree, ball of lightning offers way too much. I like that and think all skills should be like that but in a time when zos is simplifying everything why are they giving magsorcs special treatment? Between this and the new crit surge which will be 33% better, magsorcs will be the new meta. Especially when their damage doesn't rely on the dots which have been nerfed to oblivion, even after the 'buff' in 5.2.2.

@Emma_Overload stop being so biased, we all get that you love your magsorc but come on let's have some balance here.

LOL, Mag Sorcs are not going to be the "new meta". That won't ever happen until at least two of the following are true:

1) Cloak is nerfed into Oblivion.

2) Stamina is balanced with Magicka.

3) Sorcs gain access to a reliable burst Ultimate.

Mag Sorcs have never been PvP meta anywhere except in the forum hive-mind. I don't see how a tiny tweak to BoL is going to change that. Crit Surge is a joke on the Live server. Where are you getting this "33% better" from? Did it get buffed on PTS this week, because there wasn't anything in the patch notes? I already use it with Spell Power pots, and I'm convinced it's just a placebo so I can pretend I have a class heal. Rapid Regen does all the real healing.

Emma_Overload · October 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

I agree, ball of lightning offers way too much. I like that and think all skills should be like that but in a time when zos is simplifying everything why are they giving magsorcs special treatment? Between this and the new crit surge which will be 33% better, magsorcs will be the new meta. Especially when their damage doesn't rely on the dots which have been nerfed to oblivion, even after the 'buff' in 5.2.2.

@Emma_Overload stop being so biased, we all get that you love your magsorc but come on let's have some balance here.

LOL, Mag Sorcs are not going to be the "new meta". That won't ever happen until at least two of the following are true:

1) Cloak is nerfed into Oblivion.

2) Stamina is balanced with Magicka.

3) Sorcs gain access to a reliable burst Ultimate.

Mag Sorcs have never been PvP meta anywhere except in the forum hive-mind. I don't see how a tiny tweak to BoL is going to change that. Crit Surge is a joke on the Live server. Where are you getting this "33% better" from? Did it get buffed on PTS this week, because there wasn't anything in the patch notes? I already use it with Spell Power pots, and I'm convinced it's just a placebo so I can pretend I have a class heal. Rapid Regen does all the real healing.

That "forum hive-mind" I was talking about? Here it is ^^^^^^^^

Joy_Division · October 2019

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

You don't think it's insanely strong because you play a mag sorc. Yet you are often adamant that things stamina related or what other classes have is insanely strong. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because when ZOS throws their darts attempting to balance this game, they happen to always hit a bulls-eye when it comes to sorcerers, but miss the board entirely with everything else?

I don;t slot Dark Flare because the skill sucks, but I'm not going to be able to burn through a halfway decent sorc shields without using Reflective light, weaving in light attacks, or triggering my enchant/poison. Against a mobile sorc who actually uses this skill, keeping up this sort of pressure is essential. It's not like what people are saying here will remove the functionality of the sill or prevent from using it to defend against other magicka classes. They just don;t want it to be an outlier in terms of what it offers. I wouldn't care less if the other class's defensive toys were still potent, but they're not.

And I think if you come against a Malcolm or Irylia, you should try to fight them. What exactly do you expect to learn by bolt escaping away?

Emma_Overload · October 2019

Joy_Division wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

You don't think it's insanely strong because you play a mag sorc. Yet you are often adamant that things stamina related or what other classes have is insanely strong. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because when ZOS throws their darts attempting to balance this game, they happen to always hit a bulls-eye when it comes to sorcerers, but miss the board entirely with everything else?

I don;t slot Dark Flare because the skill sucks, but I'm not going to be able to burn through a halfway decent sorc shields without using Reflective light, weaving in light attacks, or triggering my enchant/poison. Against a mobile sorc who actually uses this skill, keeping up this sort of pressure is essential. It's not like what people are saying here will remove the functionality of the sill or prevent from using it to defend against other magicka classes. They just don;t want it to be an outlier in terms of what it offers. I wouldn't care less if the other class's defensive toys were still potent, but they're not.

And I think if you come against a Malcolm or Irylia, you should try to fight them. What exactly do you expect to learn by bolt escaping away?

This is kind of off topic, but I feel compelled to address this. I love to fight skilled players. The problem with those guys is that they make videos that feature other players without their consent. I will never again fight against a streamer who I am not friends with, and that's a very short list. The only 1vXer I've had a good experience with is an EP DK named Gunzork. Nice guy, for sure, and I don't mind appearing in his videos. That doesn't mean I think Malcolm or Irylia are bad guys, but what they do feeds and breeds toxicity both in the game and right here on the forums. Due to an incident involving a YouTube streamer (not any of the ones mentioned here), I received so much abuse that I actually had to change my username in the game. Just appearing in one of these guys' videos is enough to make you a target for hateful people.

So, no, I don't see a problem with using BoL or even an abrupt campaign port to "peace out" when some big shot streamer shows up. Even though I would enjoy fighting these guys (and learning from the experience), I have no desire whatsoever to appear in one of their videos.

MartiniDaniels · October 2019

Emma_Overload wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

I agree, ball of lightning offers way too much. I like that and think all skills should be like that but in a time when zos is simplifying everything why are they giving magsorcs special treatment? Between this and the new crit surge which will be 33% better, magsorcs will be the new meta. Especially when their damage doesn't rely on the dots which have been nerfed to oblivion, even after the 'buff' in 5.2.2.

@Emma_Overload stop being so biased, we all get that you love your magsorc but come on let's have some balance here.

LOL, Mag Sorcs are not going to be the "new meta". That won't ever happen until at least two of the following are true:

1) Cloak is nerfed into Oblivion.

2) Stamina is balanced with Magicka.

3) Sorcs gain access to a reliable burst Ultimate.

Mag Sorcs have never been PvP meta anywhere except in the forum hive-mind. I don't see how a tiny tweak to BoL is going to change that. Crit Surge is a joke on the Live server. Where are you getting this "33% better" from? Did it get buffed on PTS this week, because there wasn't anything in the patch notes? I already use it with Spell Power pots, and I'm convinced it's just a placebo so I can pretend I have a class heal. Rapid Regen does all the real healing.

That "forum hive-mind" I was talking about? Here it is ^^^^^^^^

I don't know how it was in 2018 and earlier, but U22 was certainly magsorc's brightest hour with every other class core ability nerfed/removed (DK lost reflect, NB lost minor berserk and major fracture and major defile, warden lost permasnares), while magsorcs were untouched. Pirate skeleton, soul assault, flame reach, 8k frags at 30k resists, matriarch's heal, damage and body block and everybody around with new experimental builds, will it ever repeat?

Emma_Overload · October 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

I agree, ball of lightning offers way too much. I like that and think all skills should be like that but in a time when zos is simplifying everything why are they giving magsorcs special treatment? Between this and the new crit surge which will be 33% better, magsorcs will be the new meta. Especially when their damage doesn't rely on the dots which have been nerfed to oblivion, even after the 'buff' in 5.2.2.

@Emma_Overload stop being so biased, we all get that you love your magsorc but come on let's have some balance here.

LOL, Mag Sorcs are not going to be the "new meta". That won't ever happen until at least two of the following are true:

1) Cloak is nerfed into Oblivion.

2) Stamina is balanced with Magicka.

3) Sorcs gain access to a reliable burst Ultimate.

Mag Sorcs have never been PvP meta anywhere except in the forum hive-mind. I don't see how a tiny tweak to BoL is going to change that. Crit Surge is a joke on the Live server. Where are you getting this "33% better" from? Did it get buffed on PTS this week, because there wasn't anything in the patch notes? I already use it with Spell Power pots, and I'm convinced it's just a placebo so I can pretend I have a class heal. Rapid Regen does all the real healing.

That "forum hive-mind" I was talking about? Here it is ^^^^^^^^

I don't know how it was in 2018 and earlier, but U22 was certainly magsorc's brightest hour with every other class core ability nerfed/removed (DK lost reflect, NB lost minor berserk and major fracture and major defile, warden lost permasnares), while magsorcs were untouched. Pirate skeleton, soul assault, flame reach, 8k frags at 30k resists, matriarch's heal, damage and body block and everybody around with new experimental builds, will it ever repeat?

When the game launched in 2014, Mag Sorcs were considered the most "balanced" class. Yes, really! They were strong, but not nearly as strong as Mag DKs. When Stamina eventually got buffed, everything changed, and magicka classes began a slow descent into mediocrity. Admittedly, there were moments within the 2015-2016 period when Mag Sorc was very strong. But even then, they were never the strongest class, in my opinion. I think it's very telling that some of the best sorcs from that era don't even play anymore. In recent memory, Sorcs were extremely effective against many builds during the brief period that Rune Cage was instant and couldn't be blocked or dodged. Even then, we were very easy to kill compared to the Stamina builds that were meta then and are still meta now. The default PvP player for years has been a guy swinging a big axe (or maul or sword) and slamming down a Dawnbreaker or Incap or Leap or Onslaught. I don't see that changing no matter what they do to Ball of Lightning.

Bashev · October 2019

Emma_Overload wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

I agree, ball of lightning offers way too much. I like that and think all skills should be like that but in a time when zos is simplifying everything why are they giving magsorcs special treatment? Between this and the new crit surge which will be 33% better, magsorcs will be the new meta. Especially when their damage doesn't rely on the dots which have been nerfed to oblivion, even after the 'buff' in 5.2.2.

@Emma_Overload stop being so biased, we all get that you love your magsorc but come on let's have some balance here.

LOL, Mag Sorcs are not going to be the "new meta". That won't ever happen until at least two of the following are true:

1) Cloak is nerfed into Oblivion.

2) Stamina is balanced with Magicka.

3) Sorcs gain access to a reliable burst Ultimate.

Mag Sorcs have never been PvP meta anywhere except in the forum hive-mind. I don't see how a tiny tweak to BoL is going to change that. Crit Surge is a joke on the Live server. Where are you getting this "33% better" from? Did it get buffed on PTS this week, because there wasn't anything in the patch notes? I already use it with Spell Power pots, and I'm convinced it's just a placebo so I can pretend I have a class heal. Rapid Regen does all the real healing.

That "forum hive-mind" I was talking about? Here it is ^^^^^^^^

I don't know how it was in 2018 and earlier, but U22 was certainly magsorc's brightest hour with every other class core ability nerfed/removed (DK lost reflect, NB lost minor berserk and major fracture and major defile, warden lost permasnares), while magsorcs were untouched. Pirate skeleton, soul assault, flame reach, 8k frags at 30k resists, matriarch's heal, damage and body block and everybody around with new experimental builds, will it ever repeat?

When the game launched in 2014, Mag Sorcs were considered the most "balanced" class. Yes, really! They were strong, but not nearly as strong as Mag DKs. When Stamina eventually got buffed, everything changed, and magicka classes began a slow descent into mediocrity. Admittedly, there were moments within the 2015-2016 period when Mag Sorc was very strong. But even then, they were never the strongest class, in my opinion. I think it's very telling that some of the best sorcs from that era don't even play anymore. In recent memory, Sorcs were extremely effective against many builds during the brief period that Rune Cage was instant and couldn't be blocked or dodged. Even then, we were very easy to kill compared to the Stamina builds that were meta then and are still meta now. The default PvP player for years has been a guy swinging a big axe (or maul or sword) and slamming down a Dawnbreaker or Incap or Leap or Onslaught. I don't see that changing no matter what they do to Ball of Lightning.

What? If you call 2 utli for clouding bats, combined with streak and impulse spamming balance then I agree

https://youtube.com/watch?v=EtN-rB0OQVU

Ppl will remember DKs mainly pre 1.6 but let be honest all magicka classes were extremely strong. Sap NB, with overlaying veil of blades or blazing shields templars with blinding lights.

ToRelax · October 2019

Bashev wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

I agree, ball of lightning offers way too much. I like that and think all skills should be like that but in a time when zos is simplifying everything why are they giving magsorcs special treatment? Between this and the new crit surge which will be 33% better, magsorcs will be the new meta. Especially when their damage doesn't rely on the dots which have been nerfed to oblivion, even after the 'buff' in 5.2.2.

@Emma_Overload stop being so biased, we all get that you love your magsorc but come on let's have some balance here.

LOL, Mag Sorcs are not going to be the "new meta". That won't ever happen until at least two of the following are true:

1) Cloak is nerfed into Oblivion.

2) Stamina is balanced with Magicka.

3) Sorcs gain access to a reliable burst Ultimate.

Mag Sorcs have never been PvP meta anywhere except in the forum hive-mind. I don't see how a tiny tweak to BoL is going to change that. Crit Surge is a joke on the Live server. Where are you getting this "33% better" from? Did it get buffed on PTS this week, because there wasn't anything in the patch notes? I already use it with Spell Power pots, and I'm convinced it's just a placebo so I can pretend I have a class heal. Rapid Regen does all the real healing.

That "forum hive-mind" I was talking about? Here it is ^^^^^^^^

I don't know how it was in 2018 and earlier, but U22 was certainly magsorc's brightest hour with every other class core ability nerfed/removed (DK lost reflect, NB lost minor berserk and major fracture and major defile, warden lost permasnares), while magsorcs were untouched. Pirate skeleton, soul assault, flame reach, 8k frags at 30k resists, matriarch's heal, damage and body block and everybody around with new experimental builds, will it ever repeat?

When the game launched in 2014, Mag Sorcs were considered the most "balanced" class. Yes, really! They were strong, but not nearly as strong as Mag DKs. When Stamina eventually got buffed, everything changed, and magicka classes began a slow descent into mediocrity. Admittedly, there were moments within the 2015-2016 period when Mag Sorc was very strong. But even then, they were never the strongest class, in my opinion. I think it's very telling that some of the best sorcs from that era don't even play anymore. In recent memory, Sorcs were extremely effective against many builds during the brief period that Rune Cage was instant and couldn't be blocked or dodged. Even then, we were very easy to kill compared to the Stamina builds that were meta then and are still meta now. The default PvP player for years has been a guy swinging a big axe (or maul or sword) and slamming down a Dawnbreaker or Incap or Leap or Onslaught. I don't see that changing no matter what they do to Ball of Lightning.

What? If you call 2 utli for clouding bats, combined with streak and impulse spamming balance then I agree

Ppl will remember DKs mainly pre 1.6 but let be honest all magicka classes were extremely strong. Sap NB, with overlaying veil of blades or blazing shields templars with blinding lights.

I mean, vamps were stupid OP and especially for sorc, but outside of that, dk was clearly superior. Once that was nerfed, sorc was slowly overtaken by nb and templar except for negate spamming in large groups until 1.6. For solo play, sorc was actually rather far behind other classes by 1.5.

FrankonPC · October 2019

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Mag Sorcs have never been PvP meta anywhere except in the forum hive-mind. I don't see how a tiny tweak to BoL is going to change that. Crit Surge is a joke on the Live server. Where are you getting this "33% better" from? Did it get buffed on PTS this week, because there wasn't anything in the patch notes? I already use it with Spell Power pots, and I'm convinced it's just a placebo so I can pretend I have a class heal. Rapid Regen does all the real healing.

This is true if you didn't play pre Scalebreaker.

Calboy · October 2019

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Mag Sorcs have never been PvP meta anywhere except in the forum hive-mind

woah woah woah, have you only just started playing?

SirMewser · October 2019

BohnT2 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

I can only agree with this post.
In duels on specs like Magnb, magwarden or Magnecro against a sorc using BoL you will see how there isn't a single chance of killing the sorc.
In a 10 minute duel on pts i hit 1 assassins will on the sorc the plethora of them flew right into the glowing ball of frustration.

The current BoL implementation is like making dodge roll ignore all dodgeable abilities for 3 more seconds, sounds unbalanced right?
Well that's exactly what BoL currently is on pts.

Bringing this skill onto the live servers will inevitably lead to a huge outcry of many people who'll fight those sorcs which in the end will result in nerfs across the board for magsorcs.

Players can dodge supposedly instant Crystal Frags just by wiggling back and forth, which costs zero resources. 3 measly seconds of spell projectile absorption from an ability with an exponentially increasing cost mechanic didn't seem like a lot to ask, especially considering it used to last 6 seconds and nobody cared.

Have you been on the pts and tested it?

Are you actually trying to tell me that BoL is fine because people outplay you in melee range by breaking your Los by walking through you, something anyone can do and that can be countered easily?

When bol was 6 seconds it was hilariously overperforming but sure lets just say it wasn't.

Even without ever being affected by a cost increase you have an uptime of 60% on the ball which is way too high.

You can't put words into people's mouths and say you're valid when we can all bloody read what the previous respondent said. (Text in blue.) Same goes to for bringing up unrelated subjects in attempt to devalue the OP topic. (Text in red.)

"It's unfair I suck at the game and get feared through the wall during the skeleton boss of CoH-II, therefore BoL and Streak are OP!

" No, it doesn't work like that.

evoniee · October 2019

im kinda done at recent patch when i see dat streak stun unblockable, lesser fatigue.
an aoe damage + stun + escape ability.
untouchable class both in game and forum.

luen79rwb17_ESO · October 2019

Untouchable while they get nerf after nerf LOL yeah right.

Calboy · October 2019

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Untouchable while they get nerf after nerf LOL yeah right.

Oh please, magicka sorcerers have been over performing throughout the history of eso when they finally get a bit of a nerf it's the end of the world. Atleast they are still very strong and actually competitive and playable and they will soon be over performing once more.

Lord-Otto · October 2019

I can only repeat what I said in the rep thread:
Fix Streak first, THAT is the important one. Then you can think about BoL. Otherwise we'll be left with two trash morphs next patch.

Derra · October 2019

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

Ok. So you don´t know crushing shock is absorb by bol? Or elemental weapon for that matter.
Mages fury is aswell.
As is meteor. Overload. Soulassault - really any offensive ult you have access to.

Magblade does not only have bow absorbed. It´s cripple, and funnel aswell.

Now that we have established that you don´t even know what exactly you´re talking about (great basis for a discussion btw ):
You don´t think it´s an issue when a trash sorc can simply force a draw and not die vs malcolm or irylia by just using bol on cooldown? I´m sorry but from my perspective if a trash player can force a draw on a way better player with just one skill that points towards a massive issue with balance of said skill.

I remember when i had 6.5s bol. You know what i also remember? I didn´t die to any other sorc back then in a 1v1. Because it was massively OP back then. And people like malcolm, hexys, irylia, ulopi or virtually any other sorc that knows their class and played back then will tell you the same.

InvictusApollo · October 2019

kalunte wrote: »

winter coming (back) for bows... this time it'll look like a sorc instead of a dk >.<

the dmg immunity should last the same duration as a dodge. not more, not less.

But you do know that dodge can be used to animation cancel, right? Right? You could literally roll dodge and use any skills until you run out of stamina.

Derra · October 2019

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

You don't think it's insanely strong because you play a mag sorc. Yet you are often adamant that things stamina related or what other classes have is insanely strong. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because when ZOS throws their darts attempting to balance this game, they happen to always hit a bulls-eye when it comes to sorcerers, but miss the board entirely with everything else?

I don;t slot Dark Flare because the skill sucks, but I'm not going to be able to burn through a halfway decent sorc shields without using Reflective light, weaving in light attacks, or triggering my enchant/poison. Against a mobile sorc who actually uses this skill, keeping up this sort of pressure is essential. It's not like what people are saying here will remove the functionality of the sill or prevent from using it to defend against other magicka classes. They just don;t want it to be an outlier in terms of what it offers. I wouldn't care less if the other class's defensive toys were still potent, but they're not.

And I think if you come against a Malcolm or Irylia, you should try to fight them. What exactly do you expect to learn by bolt escaping away?

This is kind of off topic, but I feel compelled to address this. I love to fight skilled players. The problem with those guys is that they make videos that feature other players without their consent. I will never again fight against a streamer who I am not friends with, and that's a very short list. The only 1vXer I've had a good experience with is an EP DK named Gunzork. Nice guy, for sure, and I don't mind appearing in his videos. That doesn't mean I think Malcolm or Irylia are bad guys, but what they do feeds and breeds toxicity both in the game and right here on the forums. Due to an incident involving a YouTube streamer (not any of the ones mentioned here), I received so much abuse that I actually had to change my username in the game. Just appearing in one of these guys' videos is enough to make you a target for hateful people.

So, no, I don't see a problem with using BoL or even an abrupt campaign port to "peace out" when some big shot streamer shows up. Even though I would enjoy fighting these guys (and learning from the experience), I have no desire whatsoever to appear in one of their videos.

See - i am partly inclined to agree with this. It´s one of the reasons i never cared to much to make videos or stream myself.

However you do see the problem this creates somewhat?
If malcolm or irylia or some other considered top tier player with actual stream street credibility told you bol was op - would you believe them instead of joy or me?

Zacuel · October 2019

Nerf sorc!

Arciris · October 2019

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

Ok. So you don´t know crushing shock is absorb by bol? Or elemental weapon for that matter.
Mages fury is aswell.
As is meteor. Overload. Soulassault - really any offensive ult you have access to.

Magblade does not only have bow absorbed. It´s cripple, and funnel aswell.
Now that we have established that you don´t even know what exactly you´re talking about (great basis for a discussion btw ):
You don´t think it´s an issue when a trash sorc can simply force a draw and not die vs malcolm or irylia by just using bol on cooldown? I´m sorry but from my perspective if a trash player can force a draw on a way better player with just one skill that points towards a massive issue with balance of said skill.

I remember when i had 6.5s bol. You know what i also remember? I didn´t die to any other sorc back then in a 1v1. Because it was massively OP back then. And people like malcolm, hexys, irylia, ulopi or virtually any other sorc that knows their class and played back then will tell you the same.

You know there's an ability in the game that allows you to do just that (force a draw on any player, regardless of your own skill) and a lot more already? And you don't even need to wait on cooldowns.

You can even avoid damage before it's even casted at you, because you walk in shadows, unseen by all.
And don't tell me there are counters, the only counters work at >15m range at most... at 20m+ range, there is no possible counter unless you hit the jackpot with a AOE you've thrown to some random location 360º around you.

As long as you keep your distances, which you can easily do with another Class Ability in your toolkit that allows you to teleport back to a location you previously chose, you can avoid 100% incoming damage of all sorts and effectively negate all other people's builds, decide who, when and where to fight or not, etc, etc...

Note that I don't want those abilities nerfed in anyway but... it proves that an escape tool should be efficient at doing just that... escape (Bolt Escape base ability name), not just delay your death by a couple seconds. Still BoL has many more counters that the abilities above, since at least you can see your opponent lol.

Even buffed as it is, I still think that the cost penalty should be removed as there are better and more effective Escape tools in the game. I'd trade the damage on it for the removal of the cost increase. Especially that it makes no sense now that scrolls can't be carried while Bolting.

ToRelax · October 2019

Arciris wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What i don´t get is: are people actually against the root snare functionality or the stun?

Bc those changes seem decent from my perspective.

The increased time on absorb seems overkill. I would have hoped for a reduction to 2s (in light of the other buffs) tbh.

Two seconds wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that we're talking about one the only spell in the game that has a cooldown. They can call it a "fatigue mechanic" or whatever, but it's a friggin' cooldown, in my opinion, and it lasts 4 whopping seconds. Maybe 6 seconds was too long, but I think the length of the orb should last at least as long as the cooldown. Even 3 seconds is a compromise!

Maybe the solution is to reduce BOTH the absorption orb AND the cost cooldown to 2 seconds... what do you think?

Do you think 4s reflect of magica DK was balanced?

A 4s absorb would basically mean you can keep 100% uptime.
100% immunity against ranged projectiles. Am i the only one to whom that sounds nuts?

I mean even the current live version with 2.5s (~60%) makes it virtually impossible for a ranged projectile mag build to kill a sorc. The only reason why bol is not used is the removal of offensive stun options. Streak is somewhat mandatory.
A theoretical 50% uptime would still be insanely strong.
This functionality in my opinion did not need even the slightest buff.
It´s sticking the finger to any ranged mag build saying: lul you can´t kill me.

It's not insanely strong, though, because the vast majority of these "ranged projectile mag builds" you're talking about are simply other Mag Sorcs. I don't care if they absorb my Frags because I can kill most of their weak, gimped asses with Crushing Shock weaves. The tough ones I'm probably going to fight to a draw, anyway. And on the off chance I run into some God Tier Sorc like Malcolm or Irylia, I sure as hell don't want end up as yet another dead chump on some ****ing YouTube video! I'm gonna bolt outta there ASAP.

As for other classes, it's not like there's this army of Templars running around tossing Dark Flares at everybody. Can't even remember meeting a Magplar who slotted it in years! I wouldn't cry over Magblade spectral bows getting absorbed, either, because those damn things are ridiculously strong and need to be countered by any means necessary, or they will one-shot you. Magdens used to use Shock Reach, but that got nerfed to death, and I haven't seen one in ages. DKs are all about rooting, whipping and leaping.... do they even have a spell projectile?

So basically, the only sizable group of players with a reason to complain about BoL are the same group of players likely to be slotting it! Do you hear any Stamblades grumbling about Assassin's Will? Are Stamden's griping about Sub Assault? Heck, no. But all of this arguing is silly, anyway. Remember: Sorcs already HAD a 6 second BoL, and we were still getting killed all the time by other Sorcs and every other class, too. If Sorcs could be killed just fine with a 6 second orb back then, I don't see any reason why a 3 second orb would be overpowered now.

Ok. So you don´t know crushing shock is absorb by bol? Or elemental weapon for that matter.
Mages fury is aswell.
As is meteor. Overload. Soulassault - really any offensive ult you have access to.

Magblade does not only have bow absorbed. It´s cripple, and funnel aswell.
Now that we have established that you don´t even know what exactly you´re talking about (great basis for a discussion btw ):
You don´t think it´s an issue when a trash sorc can simply force a draw and not die vs malcolm or irylia by just using bol on cooldown? I´m sorry but from my perspective if a trash player can force a draw on a way better player with just one skill that points towards a massive issue with balance of said skill.

I remember when i had 6.5s bol. You know what i also remember? I didn´t die to any other sorc back then in a 1v1. Because it was massively OP back then. And people like malcolm, hexys, irylia, ulopi or virtually any other sorc that knows their class and played back then will tell you the same.

You know there's an ability in the game that allows you to do just that (force a draw on any player, regardless of your own skill) and a lot more already? And you don't even need to wait on cooldowns.

You can even avoid damage before it's even casted at you, because you walk in shadows, unseen by all.
And don't tell me there are counters, the only counters work at >15m range at most... at 20m+ range, there is no possible counter unless you hit the jackpot with a AOE you've thrown to some random location 360º around you.

As long as you keep your distances, which you can easily do with another Class Ability in your toolkit that allows you to teleport back to a location you previously chose, you can avoid 100% incoming damage of all sorts and effectively negate all other people's builds, decide who, when and where to fight or not, etc, etc...

Note that I don't want those abilities nerfed in anyway but... it proves that an escape tool should be efficient at doing just that... escape (Bolt Escape base ability name), not just delay your death by a couple seconds. Still BoL has many more counters that the abilities above, since at least you can see your opponent lol.

Even buffed as it is, I still think that the cost penalty should be removed as there are better and more effective Escape tools in the game. I'd trade the damage on it for the removal of the cost increase. Especially that it makes no sense now that scrolls can't be carried while Bolting.

It's being immune to a large part of the opponent's damage that forces a draw, not the running away part.

Arciris · October 2019

@ToRelax

Outside of Invisibility counters range, Cloak provides immunity against ALL damage forms but AOE, since you can't target through Cloak.
Let me rephrase it: while Invisible you are Immune to all damage (except AOE, but you can walk out of them or not step into them in the first place and at 20m+ you are outside of range of any PBAOE obviously)

Mark Target is the only range Cloak counter available but it is only available to.... Nightblades lol

It makes Cloak a better Escape AND Mitigation tool than any other escape and mitigation tools combined (as long as you don't dive in into melee range lol)

Edit: + it's not really escaping if you just run away and die. There needs to be some chance of success if you attempt to escape, some mitigation helps with that

ToRelax · October 2019

Arciris wrote: »

ToRelax

Outside of Invisibility counters range, Cloak provides immunity against ALL damage forms but AOE, since you can't target through Cloak.
Let me rephrase it: while Invisible you are Immune to all damage (except AOE, but you can walk out of them or not step into them in the first place and at 20m+ you are outside of range of any PBAOE obviously)

Mark Target is the only range Cloak counter available but it is only available to.... Nightblades lol

It makes Cloak a better Escape AND Mitigation tool than any other escape and mitigation tools combined (as long as you don't dive in into melee range lol)

Edit: + it's not really escaping if you just run away and die. There needs to be some chance of success if you attempt to escape, some mitigation helps with that

I was just talking about BoL, not really interested in a discussion about Cloak, not in this thread anyway.
It's not difficult to escape with Streak, it's just not a free out of jail card against a better Sorc, how terrible.
BoL is useful for kiting several enemies, and for self and group defense. If you actually need it to escape another Sorc, you really just shouldn't escape imo.

Sanguinor2 · October 2019

So since sorc having 100% reduction is fine for some sorcs in here can dk have 100% reduction on wings back?