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PTS Update 24 - Feedback Thread for Templar

  • technohic
    technohic
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    AidC96 wrote: »
    Stam Temps with Blackrose Duel wield are seriously over-performing.
    30% damage reduction = 19,800 resistance.... NOT balanced at all.

    That's all part of that set. What exactly does templar have to do with it?
  • Jabbs_Giggity
    Jabbs_Giggity
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    Kadoin wrote: »
    Cinbri wrote: »
    [

    5. Living Dark:

    c. Its intended mechanic is to be templar version of Scales or Crystal shield (as it was said in Crystal Shield patchnote), i.e. defensive scaling mechanics however it is far below those mechanics standards for couple reasons:
    1. Cost of Living Dark wasn't standardized to coast of Scales and Crystal shield which is 3780 while cost of Living Dark is 4320 and even after accounting its passive of Restoring Spirit it is above standards - 4104. Cost should be reduced to standards as part of morph effect.
    2. Its only skill of similar ones that has punishment in form of double cooldown and after root was removed it no longer balanced. Scales don't have internal cooldown on damage reduce of projectiles, only on fireballs, Crystal shield don't have cooldown on absorbing projectiles, it only has cooldown now on damage dealt that also tied to magicka return.
    However Living Dark does have cooldown on heal proc upon being hitted while also getting cooldown on snare apply.
    There is couple ways to deal with it:
    1. Just as suggested above in Unstable Core section - remove cooldown on heal proc and reduce its heal so it actually have scaling mechanism.
    2. Remove cooldown from Snare proc and keep cooldown on heal - so snare wont be one of double-penalty part. While it was root it was validated because strength of effect but as snare (those were nerfed in addition) it not validated to have cooldown. Reflective Plate for example purge and give immunity to uncapped amount of snares and roots.
    3. Follow Reflective Plate option and make skill instead of snare grant major speedbuff to caster for 4sec. Same kiting mechanic just reverted in reliability.
    4. Follow Crystal Shield rule and add another effect to snare that will proc along with it with 0.5s cooldown. Since morph is survivability based and zos reintroduce old mechanics - such effect could be minor maim debuff on enemy for same duration as snare. Because originally this skill was applied moderate buff of reducing enemy damage after bubble was broken, which in nowdays analogy of maim debuff.

    d. Another stuff with Living Dark is that unlike other similar skills is unable to effectively work for stamina build. Scales and Crystal either don't have scaling mechanic for defense or scale off max hp and thus good for magicka and mana dump for stamina while same not work for Dark. So how bout to deal with its inconsistence and since scaling on max resource working good for this skill - make it scale on highest resources (stam+wpd/mana+spd)?

    1. Living Dark difference from those other skills is that it has a heal component. The heal component needs a CD, because if not it will essentially work in a similar fashion to 7th legion when there was no cooldown on its proc chance. The cooldown was added for a reason, and I find it great ZOS has the foresight to see it was needed and should never be removed off the skill. The skills is essentially an auto-cast heal and heals as much as a 5 piece or more depending on your build.

    2. Cost is justified IMO, as long as the skill heals. This is because it is still possible to get massive heals from the skill with the right build, and because BRP resto can bring this skill into god-mode territory on live ( not gonna lie about this :D, too bad that weapon set exists and they won't nerf it ).

    3. The forums routinely complains about snares that have to be casted, and you want a skill to have no CD on it when its auto-applied? When thinking of balance in PvP, you should think about your enemies too.

    4. As for mag/stam balance and scaling off of highest statistic, the reason why it may be restricted to only mag chars is because of a few reasons:

    a. BRP DW exists, and that damage reduction + living dark heals would be problematic. A hybrid build that uses such or a mag build using BRP DW is possible, but makes trade-offs (no light attacking with that DW bar, loss of either restro or destro staff, in hyrbid case a hard limit on the heal return because of stats, etc.)

    b. Weapon and spell damage scale differently, meaning that there is the potential for a stam LD that heals more than a mag one. This is because mag builds must account for stam and other off-resources, while stam can invest in only one and not face the same issues. A fundamental and continued discrepancy that is ignored by ZOS. But I won't get into this since this is about templar.

    Then it has to be taken into account that stam also has access to expedition sources and sets like briarheart. Add in major evasion and after damage reduction the heal would be too significant; it's already significant on a magplar and that's without native access to major evasion, major protection, and major expedition.


    The changes you want will make players see this would be the only class to play, and ironically would result in a templar tank meta that does damage and outheals it. It would actually result in a stam templar tank meta for those that can understand how those changes would allow you to build.

    My answer? Sorry, I disagree. Living Dark on PTS does not need to be "tuned" like that.

    Basically what I got from this is you don't play Templar and do no want a shift from DK Tank/Damage Meta. With DK's building for extremely high burst and Mitigation while having access to major mending for 6sec (longer than resolving vigor duration) plus access as well to DW BRP major protection (along with Major Expedition and Evasion btw).... don't forget in class Major fracture too.

    I take your statement as extremely biased against Templars and uneducated.

  • BaiterOfZergs
    BaiterOfZergs
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    I don’t really like the nerf to class dots, I agree with all the other over performing dots being nerfed. However this is another scenario where things get hit with the volendrung instead of a simple tweak. Poor blazing shards , forever getting buffed just to get nerfed.

    I also don’t like the change to sweeps/jabs, they should be kept as dots and not direct damage. It’s part of their class identity, and to change it after so long is baffling, especially since no one asked for it.

    Snares are redundant with the class, why does everything need a snare in this game?
    Zerg of House Smallscale, First of his name, wielder of Volendrung, battleground hero, Cyrodiil butcher, the swifft footed, OG of the Templars and first pvpers, defender of scrolls and baiter of zergs.
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
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    Casterial wrote: »
    Stamplar underperforms due to lacking class skills and now has an empty slot on bar that use to be damage.

    Example, I Used rending slashes, it's now completely useless of a skill but I have no other skill that can replace it that does decent damage and no class skills (11/15) are magicka.

    Yeah, TTK is so high because of this on PTS at least for me. There's no pressure outside of your burst/spamming jabs. Great way to develop carpal tunnel. Even with the master DW it barely feels like it does anything.
    technohic wrote: »
    AidC96 wrote: »
    Stam Temps with Blackrose Duel wield are seriously over-performing.
    30% damage reduction = 19,800 resistance.... NOT balanced at all.

    That's all part of that set. What exactly does templar have to do with it?

    It's like the people complain that Stamplars are OP because dizzy swing + onslaught + jabs. Really top notch critical thinking right there. A class is OP because of two non class skills. Like any other class cant hit you with the 2h execute spam and do just as much or more damage.
  • EtTuBrutus
    EtTuBrutus
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    Major Sorcery!
  • Jabbs_Giggity
    Jabbs_Giggity
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    I have always been for Jabs/Sweeps being switched to ST and thus scaled with Master-at-Arms. However, in order to do this effectively ZOS needs to rework the skill to be just that, Single Target > The Skill should be changed from an Area Target box to Single Target with the splash damage AOE effect (Similar to Reverse Slice).

    If the Skills is to retain it's AOE aspect where it scales with Thaumaturge then it should at the very least be considered a "Rule-breaker" where it is not affected by Evasion, being a staple Templar Skill. With that being said, since Templar DoTs (Really only two: Sun Fire for PVP and Spear Shards for PVE) have been nerfed, along with the other class skills already being heavily nerfed over patches [including this one]: Solar Barrage, Dark Flare, Sun Shield....Templars should have something to make up for this lack of burst that does NOT require weapon or outside of Class skill lines.
    • Sun Shield should scale with highest stat and be made to be the AOE CC/Root/Immobilize, whatever.
    • Solar Barrage should remain a Magicka DPS/Utility skill.
    • Dark Flare should be reworked into a similar skill to barrage that is Stamina-based with Defile, since Templars (in general) are the lowest on survivability (better with Scalebreaker due to having Cleanse in a DoT Meta) and Stamplars have inherently terrible defense & mobility. Thus, Defile would give Stamplars a better chance to stay offensive.
    • Piercing Javelin needs either a Damage buff or Cost Decrease for viable range-play. Would be nice to see this get Minor Maim on target where spear gets stuck in enemy for 4-6sec over Ignores Resistance!
    • Radiant Destruction could have a Stamina Morph with reduced range to 5m.
    • Healing Ritual could be reworked to a Major Brutality/Sorcery skill + Utility, as we don't need two burst heals (though one costs over 2k more to do the same thing....)

    Just my .02
  • JadonSky
    JadonSky
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    Stibbons wrote: »
    I fail to see how you want to give templar a "class identity" when you nerfed core of the class = dots... You are making this class useless. Templar dots weren't overperforming in first place so the nerf doesn't make sense.

    The class dots of templar should not be standartized like generic dots... You are breaking the "attrition class" with sustained damage. Please reconsider these changes.

    Yeah as always their logic in the changes they make never make since. I feel like they make changes based on the few people that *** about something. Everyone said DOTs were OP last patch so now they nurfed them to *** instead of making small adjustments. Happens every patch and at this point its just getting frustrating and pissing everyone off.
  • virtus753
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    I have always been for Jabs/Sweeps being switched to ST and thus scaled with Master-at-Arms. However, in order to do this effectively ZOS needs to rework the skill to be just that, Single Target > The Skill should be changed from an Area Target box to Single Target with the splash damage AOE effect (Similar to Reverse Slice).

    If the Skills is to retain it's AOE aspect where it scales with Thaumaturge then it should at the very least be considered a "Rule-breaker" where it is not affected by Evasion, being a staple Templar Skill. With that being said, since Templar DoTs (Really only two: Sun Fire for PVP and Spear Shards for PVE) have been nerfed, along with the other class skills already being heavily nerfed over patches [including this one]: Solar Barrage, Dark Flare, Sun Shield....Templars should have something to make up for this lack of burst that does NOT require weapon or outside of Class skill lines.
    • Sun Shield should scale with highest stat and be made to be the AOE CC/Root/Immobilize, whatever.
    • Solar Barrage should remain a Magicka DPS/Utility skill.
    • Dark Flare should be reworked into a similar skill to barrage that is Stamina-based with Defile, since Templars (in general) are the lowest on survivability (better with Scalebreaker due to having Cleanse in a DoT Meta) and Stamplars have inherently terrible defense & mobility. Thus, Defile would give Stamplars a better chance to stay offensive.
    • Piercing Javelin needs either a Damage buff or Cost Decrease for viable range-play. Would be nice to see this get Minor Maim on target where spear gets stuck in enemy for 4-6sec over Ignores Resistance!
    • Radiant Destruction could have a Stamina Morph with reduced range to 5m.
    • Healing Ritual could be reworked to a Major Brutality/Sorcery skill + Utility, as we don't need two burst heals (though one costs over 2k more to do the same thing....)

    Just my .02

    Master-at-Arms and Thaumaturge have to do with direct damage vs. DOT, not single-target vs. AOE. A change to single-target plus splash damage isn’t necessary just to make it conform category-wise to Master-at-Arms. It would be an advantage against Evasion to change it to single-target plus splash, I agree, and that can be a pain point that other class spammables don’t suffer from, but that would be separate from the question of Master-at-Arms vs. Thaumaturge.

    To add to your list as well:

    -Templar has no class stamina gapcloser. Do we need two magicka morphs of Charge? (That’s a genuine question - are they distinct and equally viable enough to justify having both as magicka at the expense of a stamina morph?) This is one of the points where stamplar really feels to me like an offshoot of magplar where certain things were left out.

    -In addition to Major Sorcery, we also lack a native source of Major Brutality. Now that they’re making all *class* skills that grant one also grant the other, I hope both are included somewhere for this class too.
  • heaven13
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    Vampire's Bane is a shell of what it used to be. From the same character wearing the same gear.
    Live:
    t9nm8b6.png

    PTS:
    1RegEhD.png

    Shards is also in a bad place and even the "dps" morph seems more useful for providing resources than actually boosting DPS.

    After substantial testing today, my dps with shards slotted and used is no better (and in fact usually worse due to the impact on sustain) than my parse with shards slotted and not used. The closest I get to my live and pre-Scalebreaker parses is by slotting inner light both bars, buffing with channeled acceleration and ele drain, then only actively using wall of elements, solar barrage, purifying light, and elemental weapon. Shards stays slotted and ignored for the passive crit damage.

    Sustain on templar is incredibly rough on PTS, even wearing false gods, even on a breton, even with a magicka recovery glyph on necklace, and absorb magicka glyph on staff.

    I'm certainly not the best player, but competent, and these changes really make me feel like I've been set back months in my end-game progression. Where I've been comfortable doing portal in vSS Navi fight both during U22 and U23 (and have only ever not done portals when on a tank or a healer; if I am on dps, I am in portals), I feel ambivalent about succeeding come U24. I don't feel nearly as confident in my (or my group's) ability to clear harder content. We may be able to adjust, but I fear that by the time we do, U25 will be right around the corner and we'll find ourselves needing to adjust again.

    I love my magplar. She's been my main for as long as I've had this account. What I'm not loving right now is the direction (or lack thereof) that the game is going.



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  • TheNightflame
    TheNightflame
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    Czekoludek wrote: »
    Delparis wrote: »
    Living dark should be changed to a bubble that prevent any dmg but prevent also the templar from casting any skill for the duration of living dark (rename it btw)

    you understand how op it would be? With that you could shut down any enemy burst combo by simply clicking one button

    isn't that just cloak...
  • WeyounTM
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    If the change to shards goes live like this....why ever use shards for a whopping 5k resource cost....to give only one player the chance to pick up their resources? You would be mad...
    That is why you can't just look at your "standards" and balance with a broad approach but have to examine the real reason why anyone uses a certain skill in a context. Gutting such a vital and ICONIC skill of a class is simply unjustified. You have "rule breakers" in different aspects and should really reconsider this awful nerf.

    Magicka-Khajiit-Player since Beta

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  • Darkmage1337
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    EtTuBrutus wrote: »
    Major Sorcery!

    Agreed. :/
    ESO Platform/Region: PC/NA. ESO ID: @Darkmage1337
    GM of Absolute Virtue. Co-GM of Absolute Vice. 8-time Former Emperor, out of 13 characters. 3 Templars, 3 Sorcerers, 2 Nightblades, 2 Dragonknights, 1 Warden. 1 Necromancer, and 1 Arcanist. The Ebonheart Pact: The Dark-Mage (Former Emperor), The Undying Nightshade, The Moonlit-Knight, The Killionaire (Former Emperor), Swims-Among-Slaughterfish (Former Emperor), The Undead Mage, and The Dark-Warlock. The Aldmeri Dominion: The Dawn-Bringer (Former Empress), The Ironwood Kid (Former Emperor), and The Storm-Sword. The Daggerfall Covenant: The Storm-Shield (Former Empress), The Savage-Beast, and The Burning-Crusader CP: 1,999.
  • Centurionax
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    Sanguinor2 wrote: »
    Living dark just snaring is Pretty dissapointing and terribly uncreative. Templar has plenty of snares already, sweeps/Jabs, sacred Ground, sunfire to Name a few, while this is not the templar "class identity" update (and thank god for that) seeing the snare of Living dark replaced with something unique, or atleast not as redundant, would be nice.

    i would say give the snare a 1 or 1-5 sec cooldown its true templar does not need more snares
  • Centurionax
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    This is the official feedback thread for Templars. Please read through all the changes in the patch notes and try them out on the PTS before providing feedback in this thread. Thank you!

    keep the immobilize on living dark but give it a bigger cooldown like 1 or 1.5 seconds templars dont need more snares
  • Jabbs_Giggity
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    WeyounTM wrote: »
    If the change to shards goes live like this....why ever use shards for a whopping 5k resource cost....to give only one player the chance to pick up their resources? You would be mad...
    That is why you can't just look at your "standards" and balance with a broad approach but have to examine the real reason why anyone uses a certain skill in a context. Gutting such a vital and ICONIC skill of a class is simply unjustified. You have "rule breakers" in different aspects and should really reconsider this awful nerf.

    I cannot recall a single "Rule-breaker" exempted for Templars. Bottom line, @ZOS_GinaBruno, you are gutting Classes' core abilities and setting unrealistic expectations within gameplay. Maybe it will all come together in future updates. However, WE (the player base and inventors of your product -to put it in terms of business etiquette-) are suffering from your (ZOS) mistakes and ill-informed decisions. In the course of two years, ZOS has:

    1. Gutted sustain.
    2. Simplified game play to welcome inexperienced casuals **from Skyrim** (by buffing LA's and HA's)
    3. Created extremely toxic game play to the PVP community by implementing Heavy Armor DPS sets and poor balancing on "one-button game play"
    4. Nuked Class identity
    5. Increase cost to use skills (See point 1.) to a point they are virtually unusable.
    6. Nuked Class Skill DPS

    Am I missing anything guys and gals?!

    Core Templar abilities have been watered down to a point of non-use, re-designed to be even less functional and/or desirable, stripped from Class tool-kit in order to give it to another Class (*ehm *ehm...DK and Warden.....). And now you top it off by making Templars (and other Classes) even more difficult to play by increasing costs to an obscene amount of resources!!!

    Don't get me wrong, we like challenging game play, just not stupidity. May as well remove resources from skills and add a cooldown to every skill instead. Then we can have REALLY SLOW game play that the casuals can see coming from North Gate to South Gate!
  • Delparis
    Delparis
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    Cinbri wrote: »
    1. Jabs:
    So, multiplying of glow based on amount of hitted enemies was removed, this is good, less useless animations that waste performance.
    a. "Updated the visual effects of this ability to better sync up with its attacks"
    Animation is actually desynced from non-caster pov. It especially visible coz snare apply, just check in slow-motion when snare applied and damage ticked and when does animation of hit proced:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdYwIOKBL1c
    Idk how to decrease video speed in settings tho :p .You just need to cut animations without those swings parts.

    b. "Jabs switched to be direct damage attack"
    As already said after overhaul it has exact same bug that Solar Barrage had after its own overhaul. So it scale of DoT CP which however don't increase tooltip and cant be buffed by Direct Damage CP which does increase tooltip; yet for Red CP it works okey and being affected by Direct Damage CP.
    Also numerous of old direct damage sets don't proc on this attack (hello Bloodthorn again..), while some perform weirdly like Scathing Mage that count only first tick as direct damage and thus has 20% to proc only on first tick.
    Also while Living Dark does work against Jabs properly, Unstable Core still not count Jabs as direct attack and don't proc on any of ticks:
    core-jabs.gif

    c. Reduce duration of Jabs to 0.8s with needed damage reduction so skill rotation (jab+light attack) perform within 1.0s just like rest of spammable. Current 1.0 is decreasing effectiveness of Infused and Charged traits (check templar feedback thread with more info: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6300113/#Comment_6300113 )


    2. Cleansing Ritual:
    Its performance bug that making it multiply based on amount of healed enemies wasn't fixed. It should be top one priority to fix because just every 2sec of this skill it drain more resources than removed particles of javelin+jabs+sweep+sun shield in combine.


    3. Sun Fire:
    Its major prophecy proc finally changed to work wise to tooltip yet it has problem told:
    sun-fire-proc.png
    ^^ due to travel time that can take up to 2sec duration of buff will be lower than duration of dot and thus each next cast will decrease uptime of it because when dot ends - its buff will be gone 1/2sec already. So increase duration of buff for 2sec.


    4. Unstable Core:
    a. While Jabs and Flurry does work with Living Dark properly, yet nor Jabs nor Flurry don't proc Core despite being spammable direct attacks:
    core-flurry.gif

    b. Unstable core (unlike other morph) bugged and don't work with Enduring Rays passive anymore. Additional duration does showing but upon 1.9 remaining time it just disappear:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvPtdJ9BeHI

    c. Damage portion still don't proc if enemy immune to cc effect of sphere stage. Till you fix it this skill will be terrible in pvp and useless in pve.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s98gr6nF6P0

    d. New thing that unclear to be bug or attempt to make morph viable after rudiculous damage nerf is that sphere no longer have cooldown on activation while stage effect still can occur once per second and thus against enemy with lot of fast attacks it proc 1st stage couple times then when 1sec cooldown passed it comes to 2nd stage and proc several times with increased damage, then again go to 3rd stage. Look impressive:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dSjIoYka1E
    ^^That exactly how such skill should work: the more aggressive enemy - the more punishment he gets. And Living Dark should be update to work same - less heal (~-15% after last nerf but without cooldown). However it making problem of damage not dealing if target immune even more obvious coz all next activations are also not trigger damage (you can see it on video above where 3rd stage damage wasn't activated several times because target is CC Immune).
    If this is intended - it will make morph bit more usable (it useless right now), but if it just a bug after you messed with part where: "Fixed an issue where reapplying this ability or the Unstable Core morph to a target before the original expired could cause issues with the cooldown of the effects."
    then it becoming unfair balance-wise because skill mechanic is exact of Spiked Armor which is also return damage to enemies but don't have nor cap on amount of targets nor internal cooldown on proc and thus can be proced several times against enemy with lot of fast attacks. Punishing Core damage with 1sec cooldown on damage proc when it limited to 1 enemy and small aoe around him while morph already have 1sec cooldown on status effect is double punishment.
    If it indeed bug that should be fixed how about go easier way - remove 1s cooldown from status effect so along with damage it will proc CCs fast enough within couple seconds and then stop working because bug that rooted and CCed after 1s cast enemy will be immune to damage procs on stages going again.

    e. It still doesn't work against weapon enchants and direct damage proc sets.


    5. Living Dark:
    a. Morph still not proc on direct damage proc sets. Also morph still don't work on mobs special attacks, making this morph terrible as tanking tool in pve.

    b. Both morphs' CC effects are not prolonging by Enduring Rays passive, that goes against rules of how Enduring Rays perform with rest of affected skill or Dark Veil improving CC effects like duration of Fear or Searing Heat fully improving corresponded skills or how old Persistence was fully affected tree-skills.

    c. Its intended mechanic is to be templar version of Scales or Crystal shield (as it was said in Crystal Shield patchnote), i.e. defensive scaling mechanics however it is far below those mechanics standards for couple reasons:
    1. Cost of Living Dark wasn't standardized to coast of Scales and Crystal shield which is 3780 while cost of Living Dark is 4320 and even after accounting its passive of Restoring Spirit it is above standards - 4104. Cost should be reduced to standards as part of morph effect.
    2. Its only skill of similar ones that has punishment in form of double cooldown and after root was removed it no longer balanced. Scales don't have internal cooldown on damage reduce of projectiles, only on fireballs, Crystal shield don't have cooldown on absorbing projectiles, it only has cooldown now on damage dealt that also tied to magicka return.
    However Living Dark does have cooldown on heal proc upon being hitted while also getting cooldown on snare apply.
    There is couple ways to deal with it:
    1. Just as suggested above in Unstable Core section - remove cooldown on heal proc and reduce its heal so it actually have scaling mechanism.
    2. Remove cooldown from Snare proc and keep cooldown on heal - so snare wont be one of double-penalty part. While it was root it was validated because strength of effect but as snare (those were nerfed in addition) it not validated to have cooldown. Reflective Plate for example purge and give immunity to uncapped amount of snares and roots.
    3. Follow Reflective Plate option and make skill instead of snare grant major speedbuff to caster for 4sec. Same kiting mechanic just reverted in reliability.
    4. Follow Crystal Shield rule and add another effect to snare that will proc along with it with 0.5s cooldown. Since morph is survivability based and zos reintroduce old mechanics - such effect could be minor maim debuff on enemy for same duration as snare. Because originally this skill was applied moderate buff of reducing enemy damage after bubble was broken, which in nowdays analogy of maim debuff.

    d. Another stuff with Living Dark is that unlike other similar skills is unable to effectively work for stamina build. Scales and Crystal either don't have scaling mechanic for defense or scale off max hp and thus good for magicka and mana dump for stamina while same not work for Dark. So how bout to deal with its inconsistence and since scaling on max resource working good for this skill - make it scale on highest resources (stam+wpd/mana+spd)?


    6. Eclipse visuals:
    If short - Living Dark is even worse while Unstable Core actually changed to be nice.
    a. Living Dark new effect of how it was described "golden bubble":
    living-dark-visual-bubble.png
    ^^ It is even uglier now and contradict theme of skill and reason of change overall:
    1. It contradict morph description that you protected by darkness, not by some sphere that shine like a Christmas tree. Dark theme of it should be core effect. In addition it has problem with seam of sphere halves.
    2. It contradict plans of improving performance by getting rid of useless particles and new visual if just taking 3rd layer of glowing light/light reflections and multiply amount of effects on it to be shiner in addition to adding right side autorotating effect of glow. Bubble already had problem of being several layers effect and thus problem of rendering effect in battle making people questioning about if it is up or not. (also in templar feedback thread I posted several videos where running without bubble and that coz this rendering problem of multiple effects)
    3. Healing proc is even less noticeable because more intensified glow and there is no longer visual effect of backlash explosion showing root proc.
    4. It not fixing at all problem of determining in combat of which morph applied to you - Living Dark or Unstable Core or NPC Eclipse:
    a. Living Dark and NPC Eclipse layers meshing with each other while having same core black bubble and thus in actually fight it hard to determine if your Dark still on you when NPC one on you or does NPC one on you while your Dark on you:
    messing-bubble.png
    b. It hard to determine if Living Dark on you or on enemy when Unstable Core is on same target because new visual of Core is intensified shadows that hiding your layer of glowing sphere.

    So here is several ways to deal with it taking in mind that Living Dark effect should be simple just like red transparent glow of Scales or just 3 white floating shield of Crystal Shield:
    1. Core on zero stage has new super cool effect of darkness grow and essence float:
    2019-09-17-10.png
    but it goes bit against skill description that says that you envelop target in dark sphere, so take away this effect and keep black bubble without glow layer on zero stage, i.e. same to 1st stage since there is no 0 stage anyway. Also having bubble is not problematic because it not interfere with NPC Eclipse as its not self-buff.
    Use this new effect for Living Dark instead of dark cloak texture it currently apply (rune focus armor buff visual is overwriting this effect anyway and this skill is on every templar bar). And change tooltip of skill to "protective darkness", remove black bubble and keep floating shadows. In the end it will look like anti-transmutation:
    2019-09-17-3.png
    where it has glow on char and floating light strings while Dark will have this growing darkness from inside of character and floating dark strings, combination of:
    dark-idea.gifliving-dark-idea.gifliving-dark.gif
    Its bright yellow essence float can either being passive effect right now so skill will be visible even in dark areas, see above (where old glow layer on bubble was working for this role). Thus effect will be fully RP-wise of darkness on char is healing him and floating darkness is debuffing enemies. Also it will loose black bubble that will allow easily to figure what type of skill on you because rest of types will have black bubble.
    2. Again remove this inside darkness from Core and add it to Dark but use new dark bubble took from 1st or 2nd stage of Core (2nd one is super intensified darkness) that is without glow layer, while making essence to proc only when heal to be visual effect showing its proc. Will look like this:
    living-dark-effect.gif
    2019-09-19-3.png
    Core stages are passing too fast so you will still will be able to determine if skill on you while it will take less resources to render. Skill also will be as transparent as scales or nb mirage.
    While 2nd stage is more visible coz intense shadows and you will see it through NPC Eclipse, however more problematic to see with Unstable Core on you:
    living-dark-2nd-stage.png

    3. If you want more differentional look change tooltip of Living Dark and swap to one of the effects of truly golden bubbles that already ingame I showed in feedback post :https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6300113/#Comment_6300113

    7. Enduring Rays passive: need update. Long ago it was affected most of skills but not anymore and thus it going outside of powerlevel of similar passives: there is 2 types of passive - 1: Dark Veil, old Persistence - passives that affect entire skill tree and prolonging duration of every skill and ult while prolong duration of some additional effects of those skills for 2sec. 2: Searing Heat, Enduring Rays - those that affect only several skills (mostly half of tree) and prolong not just duration but also all skills effects for 2+sec.
    And thus we should compare Rays to Heat: because it not affect entire skill tree Heat has stronger bonus than Veil - in form of 4sec increase of skills and additional bonus (10% damage increase). And Enduring Rays not follow this because while it affect just 1 skill more than Heat its powerlevel equal to Veil - 2sec of skills while not prolong effects of some skills (Eclipse).
    So to get it on the level of comparable passives it should get either of treatments:
    a. Increase duration prolongation to 4sec from 2s, allow all skill effects to be working with passive.
    b. Keep 2sec duration but grant new small bonus to passive. It is harder because unlike Heat that affect damage skills and thus its effect easy to implement, Rays affect different skills. Small cost decrease?


    8. Backlash: so "bug" of double mitigation of final explosion wasn't fixed that goes against mechanic of skill and in addition it also can crit now that mean it double dip by crit.. So, zos just throw original concept of skill into trash can for vague reasons. It just wont make this skill more healthier to play because it will be still either weak(solo) or just to strong in Xv1.
    Skill by itself is worse than other comparable skills because to deal damage by it require caster to be fully offensive for entire duration of skill. It was benefiting coz Xv1 part dots that were allowing to stack dots and be more defensive and yet allowed backlash to deal nice damage buy with dots nerf it will be much worse and this problem of skill will be more visible.
    How bout just make it back to pure pve skill like before by increasing cap and reducing amount of storing damage while allow it to crit and reintroduce Dark Flare as our proper burst ability:
    1. Either as delayed boom baby skill like sub assault - you instantcast Dark Flare, it charging on you for 3sec and then launch into enemy you casted it on and deal nice 5m aoe damage with major defile.
    2. You cast it and gain Empowered for 8sec. Every 2 sec it launch corrupted energy into closest enemy that deal damage and apply major defile.
    2. Or, since same was done for sorcs I will repeat again, make it like Assassin Will/Bound Weapons - cast on your self for Xsec and gain Empowered for the duration. Every light attack gain you 1 orb of dark energy that floating behind your back and after reaching 4 balls - they fly into enemy either like 4 separate ball or likes 1 big ball (like psijic passive) or into beam (bigger beam than bound weapons) and explosion apply aoe major defile.
    Smth like those balls from Cradle of Shadows:
    2019-09-01-6.png2019-09-02-4.png
    Make its damage scale of highest stat like Soul Trap to be usable on both specs.

    Or just redesign Backlash again.

    P.S.: And you ruined Entropy for templars, so after solving pain point of class not having class-based major sorcery you reintroduced this pain point right in the following update...
    @ZOS_Gilliam

    Good job testing... Really!

    Your feedback is much more better than any dev comment i've read in those natch potes. ZoS should have hired you from the start.
    However I don't think they will take most of your recommandation into account. Too bad...
    Please continue showing that you can do better testing than a full time tester at ZOS.

  • Jabbs_Giggity
    Jabbs_Giggity
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    Can we just automatically Pin any of @Cinbri 's posts to appear at the top of every thread page posted in??
  • Stibbons
    Stibbons
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    Can we just automatically Pin any of @Cinbri 's posts to appear at the top of every thread page posted in??

    Sure.
  • Solariken
    Solariken
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    You stated that Puncturing Strikes (Jabs/Sweeps) is now considered direct damage, BUT is still proccing Skoria...
  • Solariken
    Solariken
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    The new Living Dark bubble is kinda cool looking, but it's way over the top, maybe tone it down a little? Many players like myself hate VFX that occlude the view of our character. Fashion is the true ESO endgame and you're cramping my style.
  • Cinbri
    Cinbri
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    Not fully templar stuff but Entropy changes seems exploiting templar problem of not having class major sorcery so will post it here:
    Entropy changes are completely against new vision of balance so revert it, because skills suppose to have special auxiliary power to make them special and then morphs improve deepness of uniquness. For that reason Javelin got its effect of ignore armor, warden Swarm got new effect of minor vulnerability, sorc Surge got its major buffs as base part.
    Yet Entropy instead of just reduce damage and cost increase got just removed it core identity and changed against this new vision.
    So now unmorphed skill is just single target dodgeable dot with absolutely no special effect, i.e. even worse then before dot meta changes when it was worst skill in game.
    It like taking Sun Fire and remove major prophecy from base skill and one of morphs and implement it only for Vampire Bane morph for absolutely no reason. Or like reverting all changes to skills listed above. (agreed that Surge need major buff as part of skill and in same patch going against this vision for similar non-class skill..)
    Solariken wrote: »
    The new Living Dark bubble is kinda cool looking, but it's way over the top, maybe tone it down a little? Many players like myself hate VFX that occlude the view of our character. Fashion is the true ESO endgame and you're cramping my style.
    New visual failing all reason for change. Why should we have such visually overloaded skill that visible on Alessia bridge from Alessia walls :s
    I just suggest to simplify effect to be as 1st stage of Unstable Core:
    living-dark-effect.gif
    ^^ visible even in dark areas yet simple effect like Mirage was done.
    Also regarding that yellow essence floating of Unstable Core - it doesn't belong to this morph, it should be part of Living Dark, coz such essence things look similar to Twilight Remedy, etc.. i.e. instinctively represent healing or some kind of support/divine energy i.e. fit heal of Dark, so it should not represent damage on enemy.
    Stibbons wrote: »
    Dark Flare really needs some sort of adjustment. Damage is too slow and it is very clunky to get the empowered buff. Just remove the whole major defile from it make it pure damage spell. Hell even frags hits way and have instant proc chance morph too. Basically NOBODY uses this spell in pve/pvp/wvw. It is in that sorry stane now.
    Or, since they did same with nb-sorc skill, they could make Flare comparable to Frags and grant it ability to instant-cast proc upon dealing damage. But coz we have best Xv1 skill of Backlash, I doubt for something like this.

    Edited by Cinbri on September 26, 2019 7:54AM
  • Darkmage1337
    Darkmage1337
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    turlisley wrote: »
    Cross-posting/quoting from: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/493817/backlash/p2 because he made a good point and I would like to see this change to Backlash.
    Backlash (Purifying Light IV):

    Cast Time: Instant
    Target: Enemy
    Range: 28 meters
    Duration: 6 seconds
    Cost: 1,480 Magicka

    "Summon an expanding beam of pure sunlight to doom an enemy, dealing 4,245 Magic Damage to them and copying all their damage taken for 6 second and releasing 20% of it as additional Magic Damage to them.
    Maximum copied damage: 21,947.
    When the effect ends, a pool of sunlight remains attached to the enemy, healing you and nearby allies for 2,070 Health every 2 seconds for 6 second."


    So, my idea would be to remove the initial Magic Damage (4,245 in my case) completely and add that value, or half of it, to the Maximum Copied Damage value. (Obviously Tooltip numbers will vary based on everyone's own build, passives, active buffs, food buff, etc.)

    Currently, Backlash/Purifying Light functions in numerous categories as a weird spammable (initial damage), passive debuff (copied damage effect), damage over time (copied damage effect), high burst skill (copied damage explosion), and a heal over time (end effect). As far as ZOS's 'ability-audits' go and their actions of streamlining abilities into being super-stupid-simple (Dizzying Swing, etc.), Backlash/Purifying Light still misses that mark of simplicity.

    The primary purpose, appeal, and effect of Backlash/Purifying Light is the copied damage value. Not the initial damage hit nor the heal over time secondary effect. Nor the Minor Breach and Minor Fracture for the Power of the Light Stamina version.

    It has already been said and noted numerous times that multiple Backlashes from different Templars on the same target at the same time override one another, which diminishes the value of the skill in group play with multiple DPS Templars (regardless of Mag or Stam).

    SO, why not increase the value of Backlash in solo play and/or PvP by removing the initial damage tooltip value entirely and instead add the initial damage tooltip value to the total copied damage tooltip value so that Backlash (+morphs) can be successfully used from stealth, without breaking stealth, just like Nightblade's Marked Target.

    The Magicka Templar's rotation would look something like this: Start in Stealth > Apply Purifying Light on Target > next ability crits (breaking stealth), so it should be a high-damage burst ability to help reach the damage copied cap > followed by xyz (the rest of the DPS/burst rotation) until Backlash explodes.
    The Stamina Templar's rotation would look something like this: Start in Stealth > Apply Power of the Light on Target > next ability crits (breaking stealth), so it should be a high-damage burst ability to help reach the damage copied cap > followed by xyz (the rest of the DPS/burst rotation) until Backlash explodes.

    My point is about the set-up and the execution. Backlash currently does too many things at the same time -- it has an initial damage component, a damage over time / copied damage component, and a heal over time or defense debuff component, depending on the morph. Plus, the ability itself cannot crit and cannot be stacked or used in conjunction with other Templar effectively. All of these things combined together into one ability make it less reliable and thus ineffective.


    TL;DR: Allow Backlash to be used from stealth (and not take you out of stealth) by removing the initial damage value from Backlash and adding that initial damage value to the total copied damage value to make up for the initial damage loss. Again, this would allow for a better set-up/execution of the ability for solo-play and PvP. The ability already barely fuctions correctly in group-play when multiple Templars are present, so why not make it a little better with this small, easy change?

    I love the ability, and both morphs, which I use on different characters, but I just wish Backlash would be slightly changed in this way to be more user-friendly for everyone. @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno

    Thanks!
    ESO Platform/Region: PC/NA. ESO ID: @Darkmage1337
    GM of Absolute Virtue. Co-GM of Absolute Vice. 8-time Former Emperor, out of 13 characters. 3 Templars, 3 Sorcerers, 2 Nightblades, 2 Dragonknights, 1 Warden. 1 Necromancer, and 1 Arcanist. The Ebonheart Pact: The Dark-Mage (Former Emperor), The Undying Nightshade, The Moonlit-Knight, The Killionaire (Former Emperor), Swims-Among-Slaughterfish (Former Emperor), The Undead Mage, and The Dark-Warlock. The Aldmeri Dominion: The Dawn-Bringer (Former Empress), The Ironwood Kid (Former Emperor), and The Storm-Sword. The Daggerfall Covenant: The Storm-Shield (Former Empress), The Savage-Beast, and The Burning-Crusader CP: 1,999.
  • IronWooshu
    IronWooshu
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    Delparis wrote: »
    Living dark should be changed to a bubble that prevent any dmg but prevent also the templar from casting any skill for the duration of living dark (rename it btw)

    Yes please, I would cast mutagen, throw down Living Dark and reset the fight.
  • IronWooshu
    IronWooshu
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    gallach wrote: »
    Why the Luminous Shards got its cost increased? I understand the damage nerf. It makes sense because of the ability can regenerate primary and secondary resources at the same time, it can not deal considerable damage over time on a DPS rotation.

    If a magplar wants to slot shards, get Blazing Spear morph, if the healer wants to keep primary and secondary 4 man group resources up, take Luminous Shards morph, correct?

    To give Luminous Shards synergies to our group, a healer needs to cast it 3 times:

    3 x 4950 = 14850 magicka

    For the other hand, Orb costs only 3780 magicka and can be activated by multiple players. There are no reasons to slot Luminous Shards over Orb (except to proc Olorime but this is another story).

    Is possible to keep the old Luminous Shards cost or at least change the synergy mechanism to be activated by multiple players?
    I agree

    The synergy is trash.. it only effects one person that its not even worth slotting now due to 5k cost.

    They should just rework the skill.
    Edited by IronWooshu on October 1, 2019 6:59AM
  • Stibbons
    Stibbons
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    Yep no point to slot luminous shards ever.
  • Darkmage1337
    Darkmage1337
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    The Elder Scrolls Online v5.2.2 (PTS): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/495873/
    "Templar
    Dawn’s Wrath
    Backlash:
    This ability and its morphs will now only store damage dealt from the caster of the ability, rather than anyone who hits the afflicted target. This was done to offset some of the staggering power (of the Light) the ability could bring in group situations, where low damage builds could apply the ability and generate free real estate from their allies’ contribution. Now, you have to put in the fervor to get the full power of these abilities.
    Fixed an issue where these abilities would conflict with one another if more than one player cast the same morph of the ability on a target."
    Edited by Darkmage1337 on October 1, 2019 3:21PM
    ESO Platform/Region: PC/NA. ESO ID: @Darkmage1337
    GM of Absolute Virtue. Co-GM of Absolute Vice. 8-time Former Emperor, out of 13 characters. 3 Templars, 3 Sorcerers, 2 Nightblades, 2 Dragonknights, 1 Warden. 1 Necromancer, and 1 Arcanist. The Ebonheart Pact: The Dark-Mage (Former Emperor), The Undying Nightshade, The Moonlit-Knight, The Killionaire (Former Emperor), Swims-Among-Slaughterfish (Former Emperor), The Undead Mage, and The Dark-Warlock. The Aldmeri Dominion: The Dawn-Bringer (Former Empress), The Ironwood Kid (Former Emperor), and The Storm-Sword. The Daggerfall Covenant: The Storm-Shield (Former Empress), The Savage-Beast, and The Burning-Crusader CP: 1,999.
  • Darkmage1337
    Darkmage1337
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    It looks like a fair change, on paper.
    It is a similar scenario from when Templars could not use the Repentance ability on the same corpses/targets, way back when.
    ESO Platform/Region: PC/NA. ESO ID: @Darkmage1337
    GM of Absolute Virtue. Co-GM of Absolute Vice. 8-time Former Emperor, out of 13 characters. 3 Templars, 3 Sorcerers, 2 Nightblades, 2 Dragonknights, 1 Warden. 1 Necromancer, and 1 Arcanist. The Ebonheart Pact: The Dark-Mage (Former Emperor), The Undying Nightshade, The Moonlit-Knight, The Killionaire (Former Emperor), Swims-Among-Slaughterfish (Former Emperor), The Undead Mage, and The Dark-Warlock. The Aldmeri Dominion: The Dawn-Bringer (Former Empress), The Ironwood Kid (Former Emperor), and The Storm-Sword. The Daggerfall Covenant: The Storm-Shield (Former Empress), The Savage-Beast, and The Burning-Crusader CP: 1,999.
  • technohic
    technohic
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    This is going to be interesting as it seems the only people who will dislike this change are seemingly PvP full raid people. From what I hear, PvEers dont use it for that and it even was broken for them to begin with.
  • technohic
    technohic
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    Jeez. Have to pick which thread to reply about that change as like 10 of them seemed to have popped up.

    I am assuming the "Fixed an issue where these abilities would conflict with one another if more than one player cast the same morph of the ability on a target." means we can have more than 1 on a target so my cast is not worthless with another templar around.
  • Darkmage1337
    Darkmage1337
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    technohic wrote: »
    Jeez. Have to pick which thread to reply about that change as like 10 of them seemed to have popped up.

    I am assuming the "Fixed an issue where these abilities would conflict with one another if more than one player cast the same morph of the ability on a target." means we can have more than 1 on a target so my cast is not worthless with another templar around.

    Agreed. :D Hence why I just became a master of cross-posting and copy-pasta. Lol. B)
    But, yeah, multiple Templar classes can finally effectively play together again without competing and overriding one another's Backlash (+morphs), Repentance (in the past), and whatever else. o:)
    ESO Platform/Region: PC/NA. ESO ID: @Darkmage1337
    GM of Absolute Virtue. Co-GM of Absolute Vice. 8-time Former Emperor, out of 13 characters. 3 Templars, 3 Sorcerers, 2 Nightblades, 2 Dragonknights, 1 Warden. 1 Necromancer, and 1 Arcanist. The Ebonheart Pact: The Dark-Mage (Former Emperor), The Undying Nightshade, The Moonlit-Knight, The Killionaire (Former Emperor), Swims-Among-Slaughterfish (Former Emperor), The Undead Mage, and The Dark-Warlock. The Aldmeri Dominion: The Dawn-Bringer (Former Empress), The Ironwood Kid (Former Emperor), and The Storm-Sword. The Daggerfall Covenant: The Storm-Shield (Former Empress), The Savage-Beast, and The Burning-Crusader CP: 1,999.
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