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[Class Rep] Werewolf Feedback Thread
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ganzaeso✭✭✭✭I would like to see a parse on a 6 million dummy. The target dummy with all the debuffs is not an accurate assessment of what werewolves are being used for.
(Math before coffee, except after 3, is not for me)2 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I would like to see a parse on a 6 million dummy. The target dummy with all the debuffs is not an accurate assessment of what werewolves are being used for.
It´s by far the best target dummy to use when comparing different classes. Since all buffs/debuffs are up 100% of the time, there´s a standardization with the testing, (which you won´t find anywhere else), which is a necessity when comparing different classes/setups.1 -
SGT_Courtney✭✭✭Werewolf was Nerfed, but compared to everyone else in the game werewolves came out "less nerfed". The High end game dps was shattered as a higher percentage of their damage came from dots. So competitively PvE wolves are in the running again.
Werewolf solo:
2 werewolves using feeding frenzy:
[/quote]
Wow! Was that with the new blood moon, Relequen, and Molag?0 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SGT_Courtney wrote: »Werewolf was Nerfed, but compared to everyone else in the game werewolves came out "less nerfed". The High end game dps was shattered as a higher percentage of their damage came from dots. So competitively PvE wolves are in the running again.
Werewolf solo:
2 werewolves using feeding frenzy:
Wow! Was that with the new blood moon, Relequen, and Molag?
YupEdited by Chrlynsch on September 18, 2019 6:25PMCaius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA2 -
FenrisWolf1136✭✭✭FenrisWolf1136 wrote: »Werewolf was Nerfed, but compared to everyone else in the game werewolves came out "less nerfed". The High end game dps was shattered as a higher percentage of their damage came from dots. So competitively PvE wolves are in the running again.
lol, so show me a high end pve stam build tha was nerfed as bad as ww. I went from 70k dps down to 49kdps, same setup, same rotation on ww. Don't believe it watch this. Show me a class that lost 30% damage in scalebreaker in high end pve.
You tell me how werewolves came out ok. Now they are getting nerfed again.
Literally every single stam build was nerfed harder than Werewolf was. HIgh end was brought down from 100k+ down to high 70ks-80k because dot stacking is dead and that was were their strength came from. Werewolf is still more than capable of pulling those numbers due to their high damage spamable. Meaning they are right up there in dps with the human counterparts.
You should probably be providing proof rather than an assertion. DOTs; not necessarily stam, were nerfed across the board, including werewolves. There are a lot of problems with WW; one is that they provide nothing to a raid that a better class cant provide unless you have a recent example of a WW in a vSS HM or vCR HM? They have no utility to keep themselves alive compared to other classes while doing competitive DPS. You can use the BiS sets sure, but you sacrifice sustain and/or survivability to do so where other classes have a much richer toolbox to not only increase their sustain but their survivability. WW has to rely on claws and a severely weakened and costly burst heal.
If you think WW is in a good place or believe they're in a place relative to other classes in this game, you're simply wrong. They're not, they're in a terrible place.
Edit: Fixed typos
Werewolf solo:
2 werewolves using feeding frenzy:
Nice parses. Have you done any on other classes / races? Curious what numbers non orc sorcs are capable of pulling.
I can definitely mess around with other things, want me to see what I can get on as stam dk kitty for ya?
Yes please! I'm not gonna get the time to test as much as I'd like this time around.Programmer of FenrisBot for discord.
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Mr_Wolfe✭✭✭I would like to see a parse on a 6 million dummy. The target dummy with all the debuffs is not an accurate assessment of what werewolves are being used for.
It´s by far the best target dummy to use when comparing different classes. Since all buffs/debuffs are up 100% of the time, there´s a standardization with the testing, (which you won´t find anywhere else), which is a necessity when comparing different classes/setups.
Actually, having all buff/debuffs active 100% of the time heavily skews the results. It hides the weaknesses of builds that don't have access to those buffs (like werewolf), making them seem more equivalent to builds that can provide those buffs on their own.
Look at these two results again:
77,012 DPS with 100% uptime on all buffs. That's pretty impressive.
Now without the extra buffs:
46,562 DPS. That's roughly a 40% drop, meaning those buffs provided nearly half of the DPS in the first parse.
So congratulations, you cheesed a parse to make werewolf look better than it is.3 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I would like to see a parse on a 6 million dummy. The target dummy with all the debuffs is not an accurate assessment of what werewolves are being used for.
It´s by far the best target dummy to use when comparing different classes. Since all buffs/debuffs are up 100% of the time, there´s a standardization with the testing, (which you won´t find anywhere else), which is a necessity when comparing different classes/setups.
Actually, having all buff/debuffs active 100% of the time heavily skews the results. It hides the weaknesses of builds that don't have access to those buffs (like werewolf), making them seem more equivalent to builds that can provide those buffs on their own.
Look at these two results again:
77,012 DPS with 100% uptime on all buffs. That's pretty impressive.
Now without the extra buffs:
46,562 DPS. That's roughly a 40% drop, meaning those buffs provided nearly half of the DPS in the first parse.
So congratulations, you cheesed a parse to make werewolf look better than it is.
Raid dps vs solo dps is very different things.
The first with 77k requires not only an optimized toon but also an organized raid, this healers, tanks, buffs from different classes all in the optimized build gear themselves coordinating ults for maximum uptime.
The second is self buffed and debuffed, and after the patch you will see that 46k on a 6mil is very respectable.
Edited by Chrlynsch on September 18, 2019 9:04PMCaius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA1 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I would like to see a parse on a 6 million dummy. The target dummy with all the debuffs is not an accurate assessment of what werewolves are being used for.
It´s by far the best target dummy to use when comparing different classes. Since all buffs/debuffs are up 100% of the time, there´s a standardization with the testing, (which you won´t find anywhere else), which is a necessity when comparing different classes/setups.
Actually, having all buff/debuffs active 100% of the time heavily skews the results. It hides the weaknesses of builds that don't have access to those buffs (like werewolf), making them seem more equivalent to builds that can provide those buffs on their own.
Look at these two results again:
77,012 DPS with 100% uptime on all buffs. That's pretty impressive.
Now without the extra buffs:
46,562 DPS. That's roughly a 40% drop, meaning those buffs provided nearly half of the DPS in the first parse.
So congratulations, you cheesed a parse to make werewolf look better than it is.
Certain classes/builds doesn't have acceas to certain buffs/debuffs, by "artificially" providing them with the dummy you can actually compare them reliably. Raid dummy is by no means cheese.
Even back in the days before the atronach people would add needed buffs/debuffs depending on what class they were parsing with, in order to reliably compare different setups.1 -
Mr_Wolfe✭✭✭Raid dps vs solo dps is very different things.
The first with 77k requires not only an optimized toon but also an organized raid, this healers, tanks, buffs from different classes all in the optimized build gear themselves coordinating ults for maximum uptime.
The second is self buffed and debuffed, and after the patch you will see that 46k on a 6mil is very respectable.
You don't have an example of a raid DPS parse here, you have a cheesed solo parse.
If you have an organized raid group, you should parse with them to judge your effectiveness in a raid--not rely on phantom buffs to 'simulate' a theoretical perfect raid group. Either way it's a terrible way to judge the relative effectiveness of a build, because there are too many outside factors affecting your DPS.
Any build can feel effective when it's getting carried.
Certain classes/builds doesn't have acceas to certain buffs/debuffs, by "artificially" providing them with the dummy you can actually compare them reliably. Raid dummy is by no means cheese.
Even back in the days before the atronach people would add needed buffs/debuffs depending on what class they were parsing with, in order to reliably compare different setups.
Yes they did, and it was called 'cheesing' back then too.
You're right that certain builds don't have access to certain buffs/debuffs. This is facet of a build's strength and artificially providing those buffs/debuffs covers up that facet rather than comparing them. Repeating your incorrect assertion that it does the opposite is not an argument.
If you want to compare the effectiveness of two builds, you have to compare what those builds actually have. Using a raid dummy like this is like having a jumping contest and then tilting the floor so that both contestants reach the same mark on the wall. You can call them even, but the fact remains that one is jumping significantly higher to reach the same mark.
This is especially relevant for werewolf because we have the most limited toolbox of any other build. It is a major weakness and that limitation is precisely what these tests cover up.
TL/DR: Your methodology is bad and you should feel bad.6 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Raid dps vs solo dps is very different things.
The first with 77k requires not only an optimized toon but also an organized raid, this healers, tanks, buffs from different classes all in the optimized build gear themselves coordinating ults for maximum uptime.
The second is self buffed and debuffed, and after the patch you will see that 46k on a 6mil is very respectable.
You don't have an example of a raid DPS parse here, you have a cheesed solo parse.
If you have an organized raid group, you should parse with them to judge your effectiveness in a raid--not rely on phantom buffs to 'simulate' a theoretical perfect raid group. Either way it's a terrible way to judge the relative effectiveness of a build, because there are too many outside factors affecting your DPS.
Any build can feel effective when it's getting carried.Certain classes/builds doesn't have acceas to certain buffs/debuffs, by "artificially" providing them with the dummy you can actually compare them reliably. Raid dummy is by no means cheese.
Even back in the days before the atronach people would add needed buffs/debuffs depending on what class they were parsing with, in order to reliably compare different setups.
Yes they did, and it was called 'cheesing' back then too.
You're right that certain builds don't have access to certain buffs/debuffs. This is facet of a build's strength and artificially providing those buffs/debuffs covers up that facet rather than comparing them. Repeating your incorrect assertion that it does the opposite is not an argument.
If you want to compare the effectiveness of two builds, you have to compare what those builds actually have. Using a raid dummy like this is like having a jumping contest and then tilting the floor so that both contestants reach the same mark on the wall. You can call them even, but the fact remains that one is jumping significantly higher to reach the same mark.
This is especially relevant for werewolf because we have the most limited toolbox of any other build. It is a major weakness and that limitation is precisely what these tests cover up.
TL/DR: Your methodology is bad and you should feel bad.
Even if you don't like Iron dummy parses, end game raiders do use it to dps test builds and set ups. Nothing is Cheeseddd, as you like to put it, as it has literally become the standard for testing raid set ups. Let's not linger on this topic because it is clear that you do not agree and nothing can be said to sway your opinion.
Let's focus on the fact that Werewolf self buffed can still pull 46k dps self buffed, and that number is more than enough to be taken seriously on pts, when comparing it to other self buffed numbers.
Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA6 -
Mr_Wolfe✭✭✭@Chrlynsch it isn't a matter of what I like. It's about flawed testing methods that produce misleading results.
If you were interested in honestly evaluating werewolf performance, you'd be open to criticism of your methods, even (especially) if it calls your results into question. But it seems pretty clear you're only interested in repeating your (unfounded) opinions.
It takes a big person to admit they're wrong. I'm willing to accept that I could be wrong here. If you have a reason for disregarding my criticisms, by all means share it. But keep in mind that "nuh-uh" and "well all my buddies do it this way" are not compelling arguments. Science doesn't care about personal preferences.
@DocFrost72 I don't have a vet trial group. All the guilds I was in have gone dead after the barrage of werewolf nerfs. Last time I checked, most of us hadn't logged in for months. What's the point when zos keeps screwing over their players?3 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
@DocFrost72 I don't have a vet trial group. All the guilds I was in have gone dead after the barrage of werewolf nerfs. Last time I checked, most of us hadn't logged in for months. What's the point when zos keeps screwing over their players?
Oh. Sorry to hear all that.0 -
Mr_Wolfe✭✭✭Me too man. I used to love playing ESO. Now I just poke my head in here every once in a while to see if things have gotten better. Instead I see news of yet another nerf and guys like @Chrlynsch going "Naw guys, werewolf is fine!" while everyone else is fleeing the game like rats from a burning ship.3
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Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Me too man. I used to love playing ESO. Now I just poke my head in here every once in a while to see if things have gotten better. Instead I see news of yet another nerf and guys like @Chrlynsch going "Naw guys, werewolf is fine!" while everyone else is fleeing the game like rats from a burning ship.
the fact is that I test changes and tweek my set ups to optimize changes before posting my opinions that are founded in actual in game data.
There is no reason to take this discussion to a personal level. Getting bent out of shape when someone else comes to the discussion with actual in game data.
What test would help prove my findings?Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA5 -
ganzaeso✭✭✭✭I appreciate the the test from the 6 million dummy. It eases my thoughts a bit. just need to test a few more aspects and my personal build to see if it will be at all viable.
I asked for the 6 million test because it more accurately measures solo play.
Thank you for including the build used as well.(Math before coffee, except after 3, is not for me)0 -
cmvet✭✭✭Werewolf was Nerfed, but compared to everyone else in the game werewolves came out "less nerfed". The High end game dps was shattered as a higher percentage of their damage came from dots. So competitively PvE wolves are in the running again.
lol, so show me a high end pve stam build tha was nerfed as bad as ww. I went from 70k dps down to 49kdps, same setup, same rotation on ww. Don't believe it watch this. Show me a class that lost 30% damage in scalebreaker in high end pve.
You tell me how werewolves came out ok. Now they are getting nerfed again.
Literally every single stam build was nerfed harder than Werewolf was. HIgh end was brought down from 100k+ down to high 70ks-80k because dot stacking is dead and that was were their strength came from. Werewolf is still more than capable of pulling those numbers due to their high damage spamable. Meaning they are right up there in dps with the human counterparts.
so your math doesn't work out. If you went from 100k damage to 80k damage that is only a 20% nerf, how is that nerfed harder than a 30% werewolf nerf?1 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Werewolf was Nerfed, but compared to everyone else in the game werewolves came out "less nerfed". The High end game dps was shattered as a higher percentage of their damage came from dots. So competitively PvE wolves are in the running again.
lol, so show me a high end pve stam build tha was nerfed as bad as ww. I went from 70k dps down to 49kdps, same setup, same rotation on ww. Don't believe it watch this. Show me a class that lost 30% damage in scalebreaker in high end pve.
You tell me how werewolves came out ok. Now they are getting nerfed again.
Literally every single stam build was nerfed harder than Werewolf was. HIgh end was brought down from 100k+ down to high 70ks-80k because dot stacking is dead and that was were their strength came from. Werewolf is still more than capable of pulling those numbers due to their high damage spamable. Meaning they are right up there in dps with the human counterparts.
so your math doesn't work out. If you went from 100k damage to 80k damage that is only a 20% nerf, how is that nerfed harder than a 30% werewolf nerf?
Where is the 30% nerf coming from? your personal dps parse that you showcased where you didn't use the main damage ability during the parse? I just provided evidence that it is possible for werewolf to get to 77k dps on the pts server with all the changes. On live you can get to 85k with the werewolf still. You chose to leave out the highest damage ability in the werewolf kit after light attacks were nerfed, and wonder why after the nature of werewolf dps was changed that your dps was gutted.
Weave howls with your light attacks do more damage.Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA3 -
ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭From the Chrlynsch result , I don't think WW deserve a buff
Can you all pull about 77k ?1 -
DreadDaedroth✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shouldn't the Dire wolves meant for support play have a different debuff, something more unique, not minor maim that is avaible to every character with one and shield for a longer time period (or even sets and other skills)?3 -
FenrisWolf1136✭✭✭From the Chrlynsch result , I don't think WW deserve a buff
Can you all pull about 77k ?
Nope lol. 65k with my nord dragonknight is the highest pull thus far. Might be able to push 70 with cp tweaks. Lack the time to really test.
WW still needs adjustments with pack leader (never going to use it in its current state), the ult timer (to easy to fall out of form traveling/between add pulls), and maybe pounce for some sort of debuff for group play. Would round things out better i think.Programmer of FenrisBot for discord.
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NefasClass RepresentativeYou don't have an example of a raid DPS parse here, you have a cheesed solo parse.
As @Chrlynsch already stated the Iron Atro is the universal standard for endgame PvE DPS to test with. The results will of course be lower in actual raids depending on the boss fight due to mechanics or the people but the Iron Atro is a pretty good measuring stick in that regard as well to see one of the maximum potentials you can pull off.
And getting a raid team on PTS is harder than getting one together on Live and for this PTS I wouldn’t expect to see raid teams at all as they will be pushing for things on Live, at least on NA.5 -
Mr_Wolfe✭✭✭And as I've already stated, bad testing methods are bad testing methods, no matter how popular they are. Though it does explain a few things about the state of this game that a class rep is here defending such a fundamentally flawed approach.
Was there something you didn't understand about why the atronach tests are unreliable, especially when comparing werewolf to other builds? Or is it just too much bother to do it right? I would have thought a class rep of all people want to get an accurate picture of how different builds compare to each other.3 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭And as I've already stated, bad testing methods are bad testing methods, no matter how popular they are. Though it does explain a few things about the state of this game that a class rep is here defending such a fundamentally flawed approach.
Was there something you didn't understand about why the atronach tests are unreliable, especially when comparing werewolf to other builds? Or is it just too much bother to do it right? I would have thought a class rep of all people want to get an accurate picture of how different builds compare to each other.
So one thing I am curious about is you keep throwing around the words wrong, right, flawed, and bad, but offer no reasoning behind why.
So what is the correct method in your opinion to measure dps and why?
Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA2 -
Haink✭✭To the guys on PTS and posting parses - thank you.
Has anyone had a chance to test duels in test server? I primarily PVP so I am curious to how the new claw of life is operating with the heal. Is it helping tip the scale back some with the nerf to our main heal or is it even noticeable? Can we take down a heavy armor target again or are we still flinging our arms like wet noodles there?
My sincere apologies if this has already been discussed. I have browsed through the majority of the comments and hope I haven't missed it.3 -
SGT_Courtney✭✭✭@Chrlynsch May Hircine bless you for all the testing and taking the time to comment on here. Thanks again.4
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Vordac✭✭Think the consensus is more that with the mass Nerfs ww, who dont rely on maintaining heavy dots but La/Spammables. And the 100% buff ql improvements to blood moon is an indirect buff. From a pve perspective at least.
Yes the iron dummies ignores many of the buff deficiencies of a build but how is that better than the overrepresentation you get on a 6 mil from inherrent class buffs. It may be cheesy but it is also the most scientific method of comparing builds - controls all variables.1 -
So 77k at the very best in WW form , a regular raid build with comparable high end gear pull 100K+(can find such parses all over the place) and has still access to range . Keep in mind you wont even be in that form 100% of the time. In Humanoid form molag kena setup with cp focus on light attacks isn't so good.
You lose 20% dps compare to any other raider , you cant range, and you dont even keep the form 100% of the time, how can anyone think they are fine ?4
